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Project Counter That Pokemon! [Battle Time!]
- Thread starter Tressed
- Start date
- Status
Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Final Gambit
I nominate Victini for a couple of reasons, but mainly for the fact that it can outspeed and KO most of the mons that are immune to (or can absorb) Dragalge's Toxic Spikes. Also, knowing that Victini causes a lot of switches, it'll be easier to spread the poison onto Team 1. Moreover, with those switches it creates, it can easily grab momentum for Team 2 with U-turn. Finally, even though some bulkier mons may tank powerful V-creates (Scarf Victini still hits really hard), they will most certainly be ruined by Final Gambit as they will be easily revenge-killed on the following turn (if they're not already KOed) and it will pave the way for a cleaner late-game (not to mention it's another way to grab some momentum for Team 2).
There's only one thing I'm worried about this nom though: even though Victini and Dragalge cover two weaknesses from each other, they share a Ground weakness, but then again, I'm sure the rest of Team 2 can fix this.
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There's only two things I'm worried about this nom though: I'm not sure which nature is better for this set (I picked Jolly to outspeed as many threats as possible, but maybe in this case, more power is needed) and, more importantly, even though Victini and Dragalge cover two weaknesses from each other, they share a Ground weakness, but then again, I'm sure the rest of Team 2 can fix this.
It's better if you pick Adamant imo since the only things you miss out with Scarf Adamant are Scarf Jolly Excadrill, Scarf Jolly Lando-T, 184 Spe Jolly DD Zard-X, 184 Spe Timid Volcarona, DD Jolly Haxorus and Scarf Kyurem-B. The only things that Victini can really beat among these are Excadrill and Volcarona which is a fair trade-off for much more power.
Sorry for the late slate, should probably try getting up before 2 next week -_-
Submission Period is now over. Voting has begun!
Candidates:
Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 27th.
Submission Period is now over. Voting has begun!
Follow ze rules! said:
Candidates:
- LO Tornadus-T
- CB Scizor
- Mega Gyarados
- Defensive Starmie
- Offensive Starmie
- CB Azumarill
- Scarf Victini
Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 27th.
Team 2 has chosen Victini as their second Pokemon!
Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Final Gambit
It's now time for Team 1 to start nominating for their second teammate! Nominations will end on May 1st!
Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Final Gambit
It's now time for Team 1 to start nominating for their second teammate! Nominations will end on May 1st!
OK so I would say the Victini stop has to have both good synergy with Gengar and a really good HP stat to absorb a final gambit if necessary. Also being able to either remove Toxic spikes and/or get up Rocks to hinder Victini's ability to hit and run would be very good.
So, I have one Pokemon in mind.
Rhyperior stops everything, and 115 Base HP means, if fully invested, it takes Final Gambit with 91 HP to spare. It can also eat up Sludge Bombs from Dragalge and one Scald if it needs to.
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 148 Def / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Megahorn
OK, the speed outspeeds and OHKOes the given Dragalge set. The Attack almost always OHKOes Victini (75% chance). The rest goes into living Final Gambit well and to taking V-Creates as well as possible. I have no idea what coverage it might need in the future so I just put a bunch of options that it gets. Personally Megahorn, Roar / Dragon Tail and Protect are all good options as Protect gives it extra Leftovers recovery and it can prevent itself from being setup fodder with phasing options.
96 Attack EVs can be used to always OHKO Victini but the loss in Defense kind of sucks, and I figured Victini isn't likely to be staying in.
Calcs:
44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 356-422 (106.9 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Dragalge Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 270-321 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 294-348 (67.7 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 326-386 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
96+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 342-404 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Rhyperior: 95-112 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, no reliable recovery and a potentially crippling weakness to Toxic Spikes is annoying for it, but I'm sure a future Pokemon would come able to Spin or Defog, or just be a Poison Type.
The synergy with Gengar is pretty decent, too.
EDIT: Removed all slashed moves and picked what I thought was the optimal moves.
So, I have one Pokemon in mind.
Rhyperior stops everything, and 115 Base HP means, if fully invested, it takes Final Gambit with 91 HP to spare. It can also eat up Sludge Bombs from Dragalge and one Scald if it needs to.
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 148 Def / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Megahorn
OK, the speed outspeeds and OHKOes the given Dragalge set. The Attack almost always OHKOes Victini (75% chance). The rest goes into living Final Gambit well and to taking V-Creates as well as possible. I have no idea what coverage it might need in the future so I just put a bunch of options that it gets. Personally Megahorn, Roar / Dragon Tail and Protect are all good options as Protect gives it extra Leftovers recovery and it can prevent itself from being setup fodder with phasing options.
96 Attack EVs can be used to always OHKO Victini but the loss in Defense kind of sucks, and I figured Victini isn't likely to be staying in.
Calcs:
44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 356-422 (106.9 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Dragalge Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 270-321 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 294-348 (67.7 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 326-386 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
96+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 342-404 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Rhyperior: 95-112 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, no reliable recovery and a potentially crippling weakness to Toxic Spikes is annoying for it, but I'm sure a future Pokemon would come able to Spin or Defog, or just be a Poison Type.
The synergy with Gengar is pretty decent, too.
EDIT: Removed all slashed moves and picked what I thought was the optimal moves.
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Damn. I completely missed the last round of voting. Oh well. Anyway, I'll nominate Tank Garchomp:
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
Garchomp is a great counter to Victini and a decent check to Dragalge. Garchomp gets up rocks to weaken Victini, and it can easily tank Flare Blitz, Bolt Strike, and U-Turn. Victini also hates having to continually take damage from Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin. Garchomp survives Final Gambit with 78 HP - enough for two rounds of rocks damage. Rest helps against status from T spikes and Scald and improves Chomp's longevity and means Victini can't safely use Final Gambit. Chomp outspeeds Dragalge and can OHKO it after rocks with EQ. Dragon Tail takes a nice chunk out of both of them and neither likes taking repeated hazard damage. The only move Garchomp can't switch in on is Draco Meteor, and I guess Scald burns suck too, but its still decent at checking Dragalge. The speed EVs are enough to outpace Bisharp, so Gengar doesn't have to rely quite so heavily on Focus Blast to KO it - the speed is really hard to pinpoint because speed creeping is impossible with this project, but 92 speed EVs is what I'm going with. Garchomp has some good synergy with Gengar too, being able to punish priority users and faster physical threats who give it trouble. Nominating Garchomp does leave this core open to some threats - M-Alt to an extent, CB Azu, M-Diancie, Latis because speed ties, Prankster Twave Thundy, Torn-T, Manaphy, M-Mane, Starmie, M-Zam, Hippo, Raikou, weather offense (rain in particular), and probably some others. This list seems long, but we have four more teamslots to make use of.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Victini Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Garchomp: 85-101 (20.2 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Victini U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Garchomp: 67-79 (15.9 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 82-97 (24 - 28.4%) -- 92.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 416-492 (99.2 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 77-91 (18.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Dragalge Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 65-77 (15.5 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 296-350 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk burned Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 148-175 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Edit: Just realized the Victini Calcs don't have any defensive EVs on Garchomp, but I'm on mobile so fuck it. Clearly, it's a pretty hard counter.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
Garchomp is a great counter to Victini and a decent check to Dragalge. Garchomp gets up rocks to weaken Victini, and it can easily tank Flare Blitz, Bolt Strike, and U-Turn. Victini also hates having to continually take damage from Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin. Garchomp survives Final Gambit with 78 HP - enough for two rounds of rocks damage. Rest helps against status from T spikes and Scald and improves Chomp's longevity and means Victini can't safely use Final Gambit. Chomp outspeeds Dragalge and can OHKO it after rocks with EQ. Dragon Tail takes a nice chunk out of both of them and neither likes taking repeated hazard damage. The only move Garchomp can't switch in on is Draco Meteor, and I guess Scald burns suck too, but its still decent at checking Dragalge. The speed EVs are enough to outpace Bisharp, so Gengar doesn't have to rely quite so heavily on Focus Blast to KO it - the speed is really hard to pinpoint because speed creeping is impossible with this project, but 92 speed EVs is what I'm going with. Garchomp has some good synergy with Gengar too, being able to punish priority users and faster physical threats who give it trouble. Nominating Garchomp does leave this core open to some threats - M-Alt to an extent, CB Azu, M-Diancie, Latis because speed ties, Prankster Twave Thundy, Torn-T, Manaphy, M-Mane, Starmie, M-Zam, Hippo, Raikou, weather offense (rain in particular), and probably some others. This list seems long, but we have four more teamslots to make use of.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Victini Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Garchomp: 85-101 (20.2 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Victini U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Garchomp: 67-79 (15.9 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 82-97 (24 - 28.4%) -- 92.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 416-492 (99.2 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 77-91 (18.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Dragalge Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 65-77 (15.5 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 296-350 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk burned Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 148-175 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Edit: Just realized the Victini Calcs don't have any defensive EVs on Garchomp, but I'm on mobile so fuck it. Clearly, it's a pretty hard counter.
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Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
Dragonite doesn't care about anything Victini can do except Final Gambit. In contrast, it can OHKO both members of Team 2 with Earthquake while also threatening bulky mons with Outrage and frailer mons with Extreme Speed. Fire Punch is used here to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn, which can be annoying otherwise. As an added bonus, Dragonite also doesn't care about Toxic Spikes on Dragalge.
Note: True, the bulky Roost set counters Victini better but CB set fits better with Gengar in an offensive team. The bulky set leans more towards balanced.
I am going to nominate a Defensive Quagsire
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic
- Scald
Quagsire is a very good pokemon to counter that particular kind of victini, being able to take any of the attacks that victini can throw at it, except final gambit, but nothing will really appreciate that except blissey. Quagsire would also give team 1 a decent answer to any kind of set-up sweeper, but the problem is that quagsire might be a bit too passive. Anyway, thats my nom.
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic
- Scald
Quagsire is a very good pokemon to counter that particular kind of victini, being able to take any of the attacks that victini can throw at it, except final gambit, but nothing will really appreciate that except blissey. Quagsire would also give team 1 a decent answer to any kind of set-up sweeper, but the problem is that quagsire might be a bit too passive. Anyway, thats my nom.
1) Team Synergy and Structure :
Before voting, I'll like to ask everyone to consider the future picks of Team 1 and Team 2. As it stands, Team 1 has a Gengar while Team 2 have Dragalge and Victini. Since the Dragalge is a Toxic Spiker and Victini gets worn down fast by Stealth Rock, we know that Team 2 is going to need a Rapid Spin user (not Defog because it will blow away the Toxic Spikes Dragalge lays down). The RS users in OU are Excadrill, Starmie, Tentacruel, Mega Blastoise, Forretress and Donphan.
Picking Excadrill or Tentacruel will cause half of Team 2 to be weak to Ground moves so it is a no-go. Forretress and Donphan have their own issues which I won't bother discussing here. That leaves Starmie and Mega Blastoise.
Now, Starmie will want dual STABs (Water is for neutral coverage, Psyshock for a OHKO against Gengar) and one of Ice Beam, HP Fire and Thunderbolt. If we pick Dragonite or Garchomp now, Starmie will be forced to pick Ice Beam, leaving Team 2 open to Mega Gyarados and we can make Spinning difficult for Starmie by picking Ferrothorn who now takes nothing from it's attacks. Furthermore, Dragonite can simply pressure Starmie with the threat of a CB Extreme Speed.
Of course, Team 2 can simply go for Mega Blastoise instead but it wastes a Mega slot and is slow with no recovery so it is still a plus point for Team 1.
We also have to think carefully on what we pick because we have 5 slots left and we have several roles to fulfill such as Rocks setter, hazard remover, win-condition, wallbreaker , cleaner , utility, win-condition support, cleric, checks to a big threat, etc. . Of course, some are not needed but some of these roles are important and require one Pokemon each. Trust me, we do not want to be forced to pick Donphan, for example, to set up Rocks and Spin, just because we don't have enough slots.
2) Nominations:
CB Dragonite: My nomination. It has decent offensive synergy with Gengar who can punish Fairy-types with Sludge Wave while being able to take on Scizor and Bisharp. Dragonite also makes for a great early-game wallbreaker with it's high-power attacks and coverage while also being able to revenge kill threats late-game with Extreme Speed. This makes it easier for Gengar to clean-up late game. CB Dragonite, however, is a high-risk, high-reward Pokemon and is extremely reliant on prediction. It also needs hazards support since it is weak to Rocks.
Bulky Garchomp: I really like this one. Garchomp can set-up Stealth Rock for the team, pressuring Team 2 to pick a hazard removal or risk their teams being worn down fast. Furthermore, this will deter Victini from spamming U-Turn since it will take Rocks damage + Rough Skin each time it attacks. Having a Bisharp check and wearing down Talonflame (if it is picked) is also pretty sweet. Having only Rest as a method of recovery is a downside since it becomes set-up bait but it can be handled by a teammate.
Rhyperior: Does about the same things as Garchomp (Rocks setter that checks Victini and Dragalge) but has a weaker match-up against Bisharp for a better match-up against Talonflame. True, it can absorb the Final Gambit by Victini but personally (please don't take this as an offense), I don't think that's too much of a big deal since it will be crippled and left for death after that anyway. Has big issues with Special Attackers and crippling weaknesses to Water, Ice, Fighting, Steel and Grass. Oh, one more thing before I forgot, you are not allowed to have slashes in the set.
Unaware Quagsire: It is a good answer to physical set-up sweepers in general as Scizor, Bisharp, Mega Charizard-X, Mega Gyarados, etc. will struggle to get past it unless sufficiently weakened. Quagsire can take the physical priority attacks aimed at Gengar such as Scizor's Bullet Punch, Azumarill's Aqua Jet, Bisharp's Sucker Punch and Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack. However, Quagsire has very poor offensive presence and needs to be at high health to do it's job. It also doesn't fit an offensive team.
Before voting, I'll like to ask everyone to consider the future picks of Team 1 and Team 2. As it stands, Team 1 has a Gengar while Team 2 have Dragalge and Victini. Since the Dragalge is a Toxic Spiker and Victini gets worn down fast by Stealth Rock, we know that Team 2 is going to need a Rapid Spin user (not Defog because it will blow away the Toxic Spikes Dragalge lays down). The RS users in OU are Excadrill, Starmie, Tentacruel, Mega Blastoise, Forretress and Donphan.
Picking Excadrill or Tentacruel will cause half of Team 2 to be weak to Ground moves so it is a no-go. Forretress and Donphan have their own issues which I won't bother discussing here. That leaves Starmie and Mega Blastoise.
Now, Starmie will want dual STABs (Water is for neutral coverage, Psyshock for a OHKO against Gengar) and one of Ice Beam, HP Fire and Thunderbolt. If we pick Dragonite or Garchomp now, Starmie will be forced to pick Ice Beam, leaving Team 2 open to Mega Gyarados and we can make Spinning difficult for Starmie by picking Ferrothorn who now takes nothing from it's attacks. Furthermore, Dragonite can simply pressure Starmie with the threat of a CB Extreme Speed.
Of course, Team 2 can simply go for Mega Blastoise instead but it wastes a Mega slot and is slow with no recovery so it is still a plus point for Team 1.
We also have to think carefully on what we pick because we have 5 slots left and we have several roles to fulfill such as Rocks setter, hazard remover, win-condition, wallbreaker , cleaner , utility, win-condition support, cleric, checks to a big threat, etc. . Of course, some are not needed but some of these roles are important and require one Pokemon each. Trust me, we do not want to be forced to pick Donphan, for example, to set up Rocks and Spin, just because we don't have enough slots.
2) Nominations:
CB Dragonite: My nomination. It has decent offensive synergy with Gengar who can punish Fairy-types with Sludge Wave while being able to take on Scizor and Bisharp. Dragonite also makes for a great early-game wallbreaker with it's high-power attacks and coverage while also being able to revenge kill threats late-game with Extreme Speed. This makes it easier for Gengar to clean-up late game. CB Dragonite, however, is a high-risk, high-reward Pokemon and is extremely reliant on prediction. It also needs hazards support since it is weak to Rocks.
Bulky Garchomp: I really like this one. Garchomp can set-up Stealth Rock for the team, pressuring Team 2 to pick a hazard removal or risk their teams being worn down fast. Furthermore, this will deter Victini from spamming U-Turn since it will take Rocks damage + Rough Skin each time it attacks. Having a Bisharp check and wearing down Talonflame (if it is picked) is also pretty sweet. Having only Rest as a method of recovery is a downside since it becomes set-up bait but it can be handled by a teammate.
Rhyperior: Does about the same things as Garchomp (Rocks setter that checks Victini and Dragalge) but has a weaker match-up against Bisharp for a better match-up against Talonflame. True, it can absorb the Final Gambit by Victini but personally (please don't take this as an offense), I don't think that's too much of a big deal since it will be crippled and left for death after that anyway. Has big issues with Special Attackers and crippling weaknesses to Water, Ice, Fighting, Steel and Grass. Oh, one more thing before I forgot, you are not allowed to have slashes in the set.
Unaware Quagsire: It is a good answer to physical set-up sweepers in general as Scizor, Bisharp, Mega Charizard-X, Mega Gyarados, etc. will struggle to get past it unless sufficiently weakened. Quagsire can take the physical priority attacks aimed at Gengar such as Scizor's Bullet Punch, Azumarill's Aqua Jet, Bisharp's Sucker Punch and Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack. However, Quagsire has very poor offensive presence and needs to be at high health to do it's job. It also doesn't fit an offensive team.
I really like the Garchomp and Dragonite nominations, but I've got another Dragon in mind:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze ---> Tough Claws
EVs: 104 HP / 220 Atk / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
I know filling Team 1's Mega-slot that early is probably not the best idea, but Zard-X is very threatening after a DD, especially against Team 2's current mons (and their probable teammates) as both are at least severly damaged before a DD and OHKOed after one. Furthermore, Zard-X takes laughable damage from Victini's moves (Final Gambit OHKOes, but Zard-X runs enough speed to outspeed it after a single DD, so even if Earthquake doesn't OHKO, Final Gambit won't do shit on it and will cost Victini's life in return), is immune to Scald burns and to Toxic Spikes pre-Mega, and by choosing Earthquake over Roost, it becomes much less easy to check/counter with mons like Heatran and Tyranitar. It also have good offensive synergy with Gengar as they deal with each other's checks fairly well.
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze ---> Tough Claws
EVs: 104 HP / 220 Atk / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
I know filling Team 1's Mega-slot that early is probably not the best idea, but Zard-X is very threatening after a DD, especially against Team 2's current mons (and their probable teammates) as both are at least severly damaged before a DD and OHKOed after one. Furthermore, Zard-X takes laughable damage from Victini's moves (Final Gambit OHKOes, but Zard-X runs enough speed to outspeed it after a single DD, so even if Earthquake doesn't OHKO, Final Gambit won't do shit on it and will cost Victini's life in return), is immune to Scald burns and to Toxic Spikes pre-Mega, and by choosing Earthquake over Roost, it becomes much less easy to check/counter with mons like Heatran and Tyranitar. It also have good offensive synergy with Gengar as they deal with each other's checks fairly well.
252+ Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 318-376 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Charizard X is simply not a counter because it can't switch in before Mega evolving. It's really good at first sight but just this aspect alone really hinders it. Its job is to counter Victini first and to damage the opposing team later, but it doesn't do that in this scenario. And plus, if Rocks are up, Victini doesn't even need to predict:
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 165-195 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Once it's mega evolved, it's fine, but it won't be mega in every situation, the team can be pressured to not send it in and if it hasn't mega evolved, Victini has no counters.
Charizard X is simply not a counter because it can't switch in before Mega evolving. It's really good at first sight but just this aspect alone really hinders it. Its job is to counter Victini first and to damage the opposing team later, but it doesn't do that in this scenario. And plus, if Rocks are up, Victini doesn't even need to predict:
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 165-195 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Once it's mega evolved, it's fine, but it won't be mega in every situation, the team can be pressured to not send it in and if it hasn't mega evolved, Victini has no counters.
You would not want to switch Charizard into Victini before it Mega Evolves. Zard-X is a sweeper and should be played at such, not switching in mindlessly and tanking hits. Furthermore, it only needs to take the attack once before it DDs and destroys Team 2. Lack of Roost means it doesn't function very well as a Victini counter but as I said, one chance is enough for Zard-X to destroy teams.
Yes but the idea is to counter Victini and not to sweep, we could use Zard X as a pokemon on its own later on, but this team slot is specifically designated to countering Victini while you admit it's not a Victini counter.
Nominating Support Tyranitar as the second pokemon for Team 1
Tyranitar @ leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth rock
- Stone Edge
- Ice Beam
- Pursuit
Standard support T-tar. I opted for relaxed nature and ice beam to deterr bulky ground type switch in, specially against stall breaker Gliscor. Walls both scarf Victini and T-spikes Dragalage, good synergy with Gengar. T-tar can pursuit trap, so thats very convenient. Also keeps the door open for future Sand rush Exca/Mega Chomp pick.
About other nominations, wouldn't bulky wow roost Zard X work better than DD Zard X? Revealing the set-up sweeper too early might make it easy for Team 2 to counter him.
Picking Quagsire now means outright denying whole slew of physical sweepers for Team 2. But if Team 2 was led to pick those physical sweepers like Sharp/Zard X and then Team 1 pickedthem Quag, it would be quite hard for Team 2 to beat Team 1. Not to mention it also restricts team 1 to a somewhat stall-ish role.
Tyranitar @ leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth rock
- Stone Edge
- Ice Beam
- Pursuit
Standard support T-tar. I opted for relaxed nature and ice beam to deterr bulky ground type switch in, specially against stall breaker Gliscor. Walls both scarf Victini and T-spikes Dragalage, good synergy with Gengar. T-tar can pursuit trap, so thats very convenient. Also keeps the door open for future Sand rush Exca/Mega Chomp pick.
About other nominations, wouldn't bulky wow roost Zard X work better than DD Zard X? Revealing the set-up sweeper too early might make it easy for Team 2 to counter him.
Picking Quagsire now means outright denying whole slew of physical sweepers for Team 2. But if Team 2 was led to pick those physical sweepers like Sharp/Zard X and then Team 1 picked
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Whoa, that's a lot of dragspam. Guess I have to nominate a dragon of my own.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 68 SpA / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Outrage
Alright, here is Scarf Kyu-B as an addition to Team 1. It has quite a few calcs going in its favor, such as:
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 270-318 (69 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So basically, it can switch-in on a V-Create and KO back with outrage. It also (obviously) KO's Dragalge with Outrage. It has a high enough HP stat to live a Final Gambit as well. The Speed EVs are to Speedcreep Scarftini and the rest are poured into SpAtk. Overall, this thing is a monster and very hard to counter. I opted for Earth Power over Iron Head because Gengar can take care of Fairies very well.
As far as the other noms go, they detract from the offensive nature of the team that was started with Gengar. My nom is a great offensive mon and also doesn't take up a mega slot. I still like Char X because the team won't get shit on by CB Scizor either. There isn't really anything wrong with quagsire either, its still a great nom.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 68 SpA / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Outrage
Alright, here is Scarf Kyu-B as an addition to Team 1. It has quite a few calcs going in its favor, such as:
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 270-318 (69 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So basically, it can switch-in on a V-Create and KO back with outrage. It also (obviously) KO's Dragalge with Outrage. It has a high enough HP stat to live a Final Gambit as well. The Speed EVs are to Speedcreep Scarftini and the rest are poured into SpAtk. Overall, this thing is a monster and very hard to counter. I opted for Earth Power over Iron Head because Gengar can take care of Fairies very well.
As far as the other noms go, they detract from the offensive nature of the team that was started with Gengar. My nom is a great offensive mon and also doesn't take up a mega slot. I still like Char X because the team won't get shit on by CB Scizor either. There isn't really anything wrong with quagsire either, its still a great nom.
Well, Char X isn't a counter either. But i agree, Kyu-B isn't a counter. I kinda misunderstood that we were hell bent on countering the other team, and not playing around it.
Yeah I agree Char-X isn't a counter either, (I mean I never said it was) but I was just pointing out that Kyu-B isn't a counter either. I'm pretty sure that we're just trying to counter the opposing teams mon as best as we can while also having a decent team as well.
Quoted from the OP
"This project will focus on the construction of two separate teams, both bent on completely countering the other."
Quoted from the OP
"This project will focus on the construction of two separate teams, both bent on completely countering the other."
Submission Period is now over. Voting has begun!
Tyranitar
Azumarill
Each Pokemon will receive votes based on their position in the ballot. To use the above example, Tyranitar will receive 2 votes, and Azumarill will receive 1 vote.
At the end of the voting period, the Pokemon with the most votes will become the first Pokemon on Team 1.
Candidates:
Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 4th.
- Users with fewer than 25 posts will not be allowed to vote. This is to prevent people from making alts or getting their friends to join in order to manipulate the votes.
- To avoid vote bandwagoning, please PM me your votes.
- You are allowed to vote for your own submission.
Tyranitar
Azumarill
Each Pokemon will receive votes based on their position in the ballot. To use the above example, Tyranitar will receive 2 votes, and Azumarill will receive 1 vote.
At the end of the voting period, the Pokemon with the most votes will become the first Pokemon on Team 1.
Candidates:
- Rhyperior
- Rocky Helmet Garchomp
- CB Dragonite
- Quagsire
- DD EQ Mega Charizard
- Support Tyranitar
- Scarf Kyurem-B
Feel free to continue discussing candidates until the 4th.
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Team 1 has chosen Garchomp as their second Pokemon!
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
It's now time for Team 1 to start nominating Pokemon for their third slot. Nominations will end on the 8th.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
It's now time for Team 1 to start nominating Pokemon for their third slot. Nominations will end on the 8th.
Yeah, this is supposed to be Team 1's second consecutive and overall third pick. We should not be directly countering anything here, rather be looking for partners to Gengar and Chomp.
So, now we have a spinblocker and a rock setter. Along with that we have dragon/ice/psychic/ghost/dark weakness to be patched. Due to Team 2's obvious vulnerability to hazards, they would need a spinner that can beat Gengar or a defogger that can defog in the face of Garchomp.
While I did not vote despite having a submission on my own, if I could, I would have picked T-tar and Garchomp. The main reasoning being T-tar beats Starmie, and Garchomp beats Excadrill; the premier spinner duo in OU. Starmie also outspeeds and ohkos Gengar. On the other hand if Team 2 opt for defoggers, Skarmory and Togekiss gets free turn to come against Garchomp.
Considering all these, I am going to nominate Bisharp as Team 1's next pick. It resists all the existing weaknesses that I mentioned above. In exchange Gengar is immune to fighting and ground attacks Bisharp fears and Chomp resists his fire weakness. Another advantage Bisharp possess is it can punish the defog users by having to deal with +2 Bisharp every time they go for it. Also him being a steel type means Dragalage has to do a lot of predictions or it will be screwed.
Bisharp @ Blackglasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 52 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
Standard trapper Bisharp. 52 SpD is supposed to let him take hidden power fires better. Bisharp lets you beat opposing Gengar and more importantly Latis, Starmie & most Togekiss. Life orb is an option to guarantee ohko on defensive Togekiss, though usually not necessary.
Edit: lol yeah my bad. Fixed it.
MultiType= Multiple Type. Bisharp does have more than one type tho :D
So, now we have a spinblocker and a rock setter. Along with that we have dragon/ice/psychic/ghost/dark weakness to be patched. Due to Team 2's obvious vulnerability to hazards, they would need a spinner that can beat Gengar or a defogger that can defog in the face of Garchomp.
While I did not vote despite having a submission on my own, if I could, I would have picked T-tar and Garchomp. The main reasoning being T-tar beats Starmie, and Garchomp beats Excadrill; the premier spinner duo in OU. Starmie also outspeeds and ohkos Gengar. On the other hand if Team 2 opt for defoggers, Skarmory and Togekiss gets free turn to come against Garchomp.
Considering all these, I am going to nominate Bisharp as Team 1's next pick. It resists all the existing weaknesses that I mentioned above. In exchange Gengar is immune to fighting and ground attacks Bisharp fears and Chomp resists his fire weakness. Another advantage Bisharp possess is it can punish the defog users by having to deal with +2 Bisharp every time they go for it. Also him being a steel type means Dragalage has to do a lot of predictions or it will be screwed.
Bisharp @ Blackglasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 52 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
Standard trapper Bisharp. 52 SpD is supposed to let him take hidden power fires better. Bisharp lets you beat opposing Gengar and more importantly Latis, Starmie & most Togekiss. Life orb is an option to guarantee ohko on defensive Togekiss, though usually not necessary.
Edit: lol yeah my bad. Fixed it.
MultiType= Multiple Type. Bisharp does have more than one type tho :D
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I know Bisharp is our lord and savoir and all that jazz, but its ability isn't Multitype.
Bisharp @ Blackglasses
Ability: >>>Multitype<<<
EVs: 252 Atk / 52 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
Standard trapper Bisharp. 52 SpD is supposed to let him take hidden power fires better. Bisharp lets you beat opposing Gengar and more importantly Latis, Starmie & most Togekiss. Life orb is an option to guarantee ohko on defensive Togekiss, though usually not necessary.
- Status