Metagame Cross Evolution

#1
Original idea by Angry2
Approved for SM by The Immortal and scpinion

Thanks Centinela for the new awesome banner!
One of the main aspects of Pokémon is evolving. Since the very beginning, back in RBY, we saw our Pokémon evolve to the next stage of what we call "evolutionary line". They give Pokémon new moves/abilities/typing and also stats! But what if we could cross these evolutionary lines? That's what you can do in this metagame!

You can switch it by nicknaming your mon the name of the line you want. It gives the new stats and access of a maximum of 2 moves from the evolutionary lines' movepool. Abilities are replaced by the final form abilities. If the evolution gets a new secondary typing, the cross-evolved Pokémon will get it too (or replace its old second type).
Complicated? Want an example? Ok!

Klang is a Stage 2 that can evolve into a Stage 3, so it can "cross-evolve" with a Stage 3 Pokémon such as Gallade. Gallade has +30 HP, +90 Attack, +30 Defense, equal Special Attack, +60 Special Defense and +30 Speed than Kirlia. Its abilities are Steadfast and Justified, and has access to Close Combat and Knock Off. It also gains a secondary Fighting type. As a result:


Gallade (Klang) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
New Stats: 90/170/125/70/145/80
New typing: Steel/Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Klang has now access to two extra moves to balance its horrendous natural movepool. Steel-type grants it a lot of set-up opportunities, aided by a 90/125/145 bulk and a monstrous Attack to wreak havoc.

Rules:
Mechanics:
  • You can "cross-evolve" your Pokemon by naming them after the intended Pokemon. So for example you nickname your Ponyta "Dugtrio," giving it +25 HP, +45 Attack, +25 Defense, +15 Special Attack, +25 Special Defense, and +25 Speed, and access to Sand Veil, Arena Trap, and Sand Force.
  • Evolution is limited so that Stage 1, 2, and 3 are matched accordingly. Ponyta is a Stage 1 Pokemon and can evolve into any Stage 2 but it cannot evolve into a Stage 3, so you couldn't name it Venusaur or Charizard, but you can name it Ivysaur or Charmeleon. Same goes for Ivysaur not having access to Dugtrio, but it does has access to Alakazam and Gengar.
  • Pokémon that cannot evolve cannot cross-evolve either.
  • Cross-evolved Pokémon get the abilities from the line they chose. So for example, crossing Haunter with Alakazam, you get Inner Focus, Magic Guard or Synchronize as possible abilities.
  • Cross-evolved Pokémon have the movepool of the base Pokémon. You can inherit up to 2 moves from the cross-evolution as well. Illegallities are removed on cross-evolved Pokémon.
Clauses: Ubers clauses + Evolutionary clause: this prevents two or more Pokemon on a team from cross-evolving with the same Pokémon. As in OU, Baton Pass is banned.

Bans:
  • You can't go over base 255 or under 1 on any stat. Combinations that produce Pokémon with negative base stats or over 255 are banned.
  • Getting Huge Power, Pure Power and Shadow Tag via cross-evolution is banned.
  • Cross-evolving with Shedinja, Solgaleo and Lunala is banned. Further bans will be considered if needed as the metagame evolves.
  • Sneasel as base Pokémon is banned.
Strategy:
The best base Pokémon start out with all-around good stats, good typing, and access to a deep movepool already.
The best cross-evolutions are the ones that offer the biggest stat boosts, access to a deep movepool, good abilities and even a favorable type change.
Other great cross-evolutions include Pokémon which give huge boosts in a single stat or have access to a coveted ability or move.

Milotic (Spritzee) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

In many ways, a straight better CroCune. Insane bulk coupled with Marvel Scale make it very difficult to KO while Resting, allowing it to keep boosting. It also counters many threatening Bug-, Fighting- and Dark-types, such as Scyther and Choice-locked Magmar x Gallade.


Gyarados (Gligar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock / Defog
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn / Knock Off / Roar

Once the very best Pokémon in Cross Evolution, Gligar x Gyarados will definitely keep up being a big threat due to its insane defensive and offensive capabilities. It is pretty versatile too, being able to run physically or specially defensive sets, and more offensive Dragon Dance ones.


Q&A:
Q: I still find the metagame's mechanics difficult to understand.
A: Last gen, both Eevee General and tehy made this awesome visuals which might help you out:
Stage 1 Charmander
Stage 2
Primeape
This is a legal evolution because Charmander is a Stage 1 and can evolve under normal circumstances.

Stage 2 Charmeleon
Stage 2
Primeape
This is an illegal evolution because Charmeleon is a Stage 2 and cannot evolve into another Stage 2.

Stage 3 Charizard
Stage 2 Primeape
This is an illegal evolution because Charizard cannot evolve under normal circumstances.

Stage 2
Ivysaur
Stage 3 Charizard
This is a legal evolution because Ivysaur is a Stage 2 and can evolve under normal circumstances.

Stage 2
Primeape
Stage 3 Charizard
This is an illegal evolution because Primeape cannot evolve under normal circumstances.

Stage 1 Mankey
Stage 3 Charizard
This is an illegal evolution because Mankey is a Stage 1 and cannot evolve into a Stage 3 Pokemon.

Q: How does Eviolite work?
A: Eviolite does not work on any cross-evolved Pokémon.

Q: What about signature items, such as Light Ball or Thick Club?
A: They only work on vanilla Pikachu and vanilla Cubone/Marowak (and their Alolan forms), respectively. Again, they don't work on any cross-evolved Pokémon, even if it's nicknamed "Marowak", or it's Pikachu with another nickname, etc.

Q: What about exclusive Z-moves?
A: Yet again, they don't work on cross-evolved Pokémon. So Eevee x Xatu cannot use Extreme Evoboost, etc.

Q: Is weight affected? What if my cross-evolution's weight drops below 0?
A: Weight changes weren't considered for the initial metagame, yet they are implemented. If weight drops below 0 when cross-evolving, it is set to 0.1 kg.

Q: Why is _____ moveset illegal?
A: Make sure you didn't inherit more than 2 moves from the cross-evolution.

Resources:
10/4/2016 - Original, OU-based metagame.
23/7/2016 - Change to Ubers banlist. Scyther, Archen and Sneasel as base Pokémon, and Gyarados as a cross-evolution are unbanned.
2/1/2017 - Gen 7 re-approval.
5/2/2017 - Gen 7 Thread is up.
8/2/2017 - Voting on Beat Up starts.
15/2/2017 - Sneasel is quickbanned from Cross Evolution.
17/2/2017 - Solgaleo and Lunala as cross-evolutions suspect announced.
6/3/2017 - Unanimous ban on both Solgaleo and Lunala as cross-evolutions.
30/4/2017 - Gligar's suspect test announced.
15/5/2017 - Gligar avoids ban with a 33.33% ban vote.


On the radar:
Gen 7 Cross Evolution has been playable for several months now and it is clear that the metagame needs suspects/bans of some overwhelming forces. The following Pokémon are on the radar as potentially suspect-worthy (note that this isn't the same as ban-worthy). Discuss about these Pokémon here! (Reasoning)

  • : Type:Null as base Pokémon
  • : Milotic as cross-evolution
THIS THREAD MAY CONTAIN USUM SPOILERS.
 
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#2
Gen 7 Cross Evolution Viability Rankings
Special thanks to lightninging sin(pi) FALCOWNPAUNCH! Stocke OriolesFan52 for their help in the Gen 6 ranking and shrektacularshrek for the Gen 7 one

(in alphabetical order)
S-rank
S+
Gligar (Gyarados, Persian-Alola, Hariyama, Barbaracle, Toxapex)

S
Type:Null (Milotic, Quagsire, Arcanine, lots more)

A-rank
A+
Doublade (Dragonite, Flygon)
Electabuzz (Greninja, Vivillon, Nidoking, Clefable)
Magmar (Serperior, Gallade, Nidoking, Clefable)
Scyther (Breloom, Crawdaunt, Escavalier, Bibarel)
Spritzee (Milotic, Chansey)

A
Gengar (Mega)
Haunter (Vivillon, Porygon-Z, Togekiss)
Magneton (Hydreigon, Vivillon, Flygon, Vikavolt)
Porygon2 (Gardevoir, Toucannon, Krookodile, Nidoking, Machamp)

A-
Arceus-Fairy
Chinchou (Milotic)
Dusclops (Clefable, Reuniclus, Gallade)
Finneon (Milotic, Chansey)
Pumpkaboo-Super (Chansey)
Rhydon (Gallade, Dragonite, Beedrill)
Salamence (Mega)
Seadra (Vivillon, Ludicolo)
Tangela (Milotic, Chansey, Volcarona)
Xerneas

B-rank
B+
Ferroseed (Whimsicott)
Groudon (Primal)
Ho-Oh
Klang (Gallade, Tsareena)
Kyogre (Primal)
Litleo (Noivern, Volcarona)
Honedge (Hitmontop)
Murkrow (Breloom, Hitmonlee, Gyarados, Kricketune, Bibarel)
Onix (Vaporeon)
Pawniard (Barbaracle)
Wailmer (Toxapex)


B

Arceus-Fighting
Archen (Hitmonlee, Whimsicott)
Chansey (Chandelure, Decidueye)
Frillish (Accelgor, Umbreon)
Grimer-Alola (Milotic)
Lairon (Dragonite)
Lileep (Pelipper, Hippowdon)
Misdreavus (Lucario, Breloom)
Munchlax (Arcanine, Hitmonlee, Lurantis)
Porygon (Noivern)
Sliggoo (Clefable)
Slowbro (Mega)
Squirtle (Chansey)
Vullaby (Hitmontop)

B-
Blaziken (Mega)
Fraxure (Gallade)
Gastly (Jolteon, Galvantula)
Marshadow
Morelull (Whimsicott)
Pheromosa
Shuppet (Breloom)
Swirlix (Hitmonlee)
Tirtouga (Hitmonlee)
Togetic (Azumarill)


C-rank

C+
Abra (Espeon, Swoobat)
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Ice
Carvanha (Araquanid)
Clauncher (Chansey)
Diglett (Breloom)
Doduo (Linoone)
Kadabra (Butterfree, Greninja)
Krabby (Beartic, Hitmonlee, Araquanid, Ninjask)
Lucario (Mega)
Omanyte (Espeon, Jolteon)
Pancham (Whimsicott)
Ponyta (Leafeon, Heliolisk, Hitmonchan)
Shieldon (Sylveon, Vaporeon)
Taillow (Sylveon)
Yanma (Jolteon, Volcarona, Espeon)


C

Aipom (Breloom)
Amaura (Jolteon)
Anorith (Cloyster)
Cranidos (Whimsicott)
Deoxys-Attack
Ditto
Dwebble (Bibarel)
Floette (Gardevoir)
Hakamo-o (Tsareena)
Krokorok (Blaziken)
Kyurem-White
Larvesta (Leafeon)
Mienfoo (Volcarona)
Sableye (Mega)
Salandit (Venomoth, Mothim)


Do NOT Use Rank
These Pokémon are terrible and unviable but actually decently common sights. Do NOT use them.
Cosmoem (both as base Pokémon and as cross-evolution)
Morelull (Forretress, Magneton)

Of course, I expect disagreements or missed / recently discovered Pokémon, so feel free to make your nominations! But please, refrain from making suggestions without a reason. And suggestions that have reasons along the lines of "I used it and it was pretty good" will be ignored, along with deliberate shitposts.

Example of a good nomination:
Gligar x Gyarados: no ranking -> S+ rank
Gligar x Gyarados is able to perform a variety of roles exceptionally well, including but not limited to stallbreaking, sweeping, and support. It fares well against a large portion of the metagame, and this is backed up by two decent abilities, excellent 140/190/129/80/145/86 stats, and an expansive movepool, thus Gligar as a base form should be moved to the S+ rank. Gligar's other evolutions, such as Persian-A, also have many options to run at their disposal.


What will NOT be accepted:
- Grimer-A should be in S+ rank because I used it against the bot and won 3 times in a row
- Rhyhorn should be in A rank because I like it and it's cool
- [Insert garbagemon here] is gr8 lol put that in s rank amrite

Sample sets (check the Hub for full analyses)
Here you have some sample sets for some of the metagame's threats. Use Cntrl + F to find a particular Pokémon. Note that these may not be the only viable sets.


Sample Teams
Anaconja 's stall


TimeZone 's stall
/


dsm77773 's balance


Anaconja 's & TimeZone 's HO
 
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#3
The following Pokémon are on the radar as potentially suspect-worthy (note that this isn't the same as ban-worthy).
  • /
    : Solgaleo/Lunala as cross-evolutions
  • : Type:Null as base Pokémon
  • /
    : Sneasel as base Pokémon OR Breloom as cross-evolution OR Beat Up
  • : Milotic as cross-evolution
  • : Gligar as base Pokémon
(wow, the rich text editor made a mess of your colours.)

Solgaleo/Lunana look nice if you just consider their +280 BST, which is even more than Gallade, Gardevoir or Tsareena, but this comes with a Def/SpD drop of 24/42 or 42/24, making the resulting evolution somewhat frail unless you start with something bulky such as Porygon2 or Dusclops. Still, the +60 Speed helps, as long as you can avoid priority, or use something like Dragonair x Solagleo and have better priority of your own.

Type:Null has a seriously high BST for a stage 1 Pokémon, the previous holder of that title being Scyther which I understand was generally held back by its typing. Add to that the high BST gains you can get from stage 1 to stage 2 (Milotic and Gyarados give the same boost), and you can reach the dizzy heights of 874 BST!

Gligar was one of the few NFEs to make it up the tiers, reaching the dizzy heights of UU in Gen6, so it's obviously very viable.

Edit: Marowak-Alola changes both your types. Some Gen7 evolutions change your secondary type:
  • Dark: Incineroar
  • Dragon: Exeggutor-Alola
  • Electric: Charjabug
  • Fairy: Ninetales-Alola, Primarina
  • Fighting: Hakamo-o
  • Ghost: Decidueye, Lunala
  • Ice: Crabominable
  • Psychic: Raichu-Alola
  • Steel: Solgaleo
Top Gen7 evolutions by stat change:
  • HP: Lunala, Solgaleo (94), Bewear, Crabominable, Golisopod (50), Raticate-Alola (45), Gumshoos, Lycanroc-Midnight (40), Exeggutor-Alola, Ninetales-Alola (35)
  • Atk: Solgaleo (108), Golisopod (90), Lunala (84), Tsareena (80), Exeggutor-Alola (65), Bewear, Crabominable, Lycanroc, Lycanroc-Midnight, Lurantis (50) [Vikavolt -12]
  • Def: Cosmomem, Golisopod (100), Toxapex (90), Lurantis (55), Charjabug, Tsareena (50), Araquanid, Incineroar (40) [Vikavolt -5, Solgaleo -24, Lunala -42]
  • SpA: Lunala (108), Vikavolt (90), Solgaleo (84), Exeggutor-Alola (65), Raichu-Alola (45), Golisopod, Ribombee, Salazzle (40)
  • SpD: Cosmomem (100), Toxapex (90), Araquanid, Golispod (60), Lurantis (55), Muk-Alola, Tsareena (50), Raticate-Alola (45), Incineroar (40) [Lunala -24, Solgaleo -42]
  • Spe: Lunala, Solgaleo (60), Lycanroc (52), Ninetales-Alola (44), Ribombee, Salazzle (40), Silvally (36), Steenee (30) [Charjabug, Mudsdale, Toxapex -10, Toucannon -15, Crabominable -20, Incineroar -30, Golispod -40]
  • BST: Golisopod (300), Lunala, Solgaleo (280), Lurantis (230), Tsareena (220), Lycanroc, Lycanroc-Midnight (207), Ninetales-Alola (206), Exeggutor-Alola (205), Cosmomem (200)
 
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#4
Finally my baby is back!

Seriously this is one of my favorite metas to play, a lot of creative possibilities.

At least there would be more creativity if Gyarados Gligar, Milotic Spritzee, Solgaleo Magmar, Lunala Electabuzz, and many other broken thing weren't steamrolling the meta. I've had this discussion before with a lot of the guys who are regulars on ROM but the meta ends up falling a bit short when you create something fun and exciting like Sylveon Shieldon and it is obsulete in a Gligod based meta.

However without delving too much on the negative, here are some on the new threats for the gen:
Lurantis Munchlax- Lurantis in standard will go down as a worse Serperior, but in cross evo, with it's massive boost and contrary it is just waiting for a mon with Superpower to abuse it. Incomes Munch with a solid Sp.Def, Superpower and moves for days. It can run through most teams without a ghost type, as it's main move against Ghosts are Payback and Pursuit.

Lunala P2- While I have really low hopes for Lunal to stay this is easily the second best Lunala mon. While Electabuzz is a massive wallbreaker, P2's ability to set up Z-Conversions and sweep is massive as it can keep it's amazing typing if Tri Attack or Moongeist Beam is in the first slot. Seriously that +1 in every stat is massive.

Tsareena Klang- Imagine being able to get to +1 in ATK, +2 in Speed AND being immune to priority? Because this baby does that, add that with solid Steel/Fighting/Fairy coverage and you have a solid late-game sweeper. Other mons can do similar things like Croconaw which has the merit of dealing with Gligar slightly more easily or Fraxure that has massive destructive power.

Toxapex Wailmer-Massive HP, Defenses and regenerator, sign me right up, Wailmer is just an example, there are other mons who make use of Toxapex, Wailmer just did it better, anyone with high HP has a excelent giver now.

Golisopod mons- Now while this may seem like an odd choice, with Emergency Exit getting a bad wrap and all but in a meta where Mega Gengar is legal and now that Dugtrio is a better cross evo target you can make a case that this is good. Unfortunatly nothing really works all that well with it by experience, Larvesta and Scyther have horrible typing and as such they can't abuse First Impression, maybe using other things would be helpful.

Sylveon/Vaporeon Type:Null- Everybody should know that the main Type:Null mon is Quag, as it gives Recovery and Unaware but these deserve merit as Wish passers and Sylveon has a nice Pixilate Tri Attack. Also massive stats help.

Bibarel Mudbray/Gligar/Dwebble/Type:Null/Whatever- Bibarel recieved the massive boost of Aqua Jet and SD, with it any mon that can deal with Primal Groundon can become a massive sweeper, Mudbray is inferior to Glig but Glig, while unbanned, enjoys Alola-Persian and Gyarados more for it's plays. Dwebble has the niche of Simple Smash and while it is underwhelming now, in the hopefull future where Gligod and Spritgod aren't dominating it could have some fun. Type:Null and Scyther both work pretty well here but sadly none of them have that coveted EQ for Primal Don, even if Type Null can almost OHKO with Return after an SD.

This gen seems to be super fun once Gligar, Milotic, Beat Up, Lunala and Solgaleo get that so deserved ban hammer.
 
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#5
Some cool set ideas:

Araquanid (Carvanha) @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Crunch
- Zen Headbutt

Here's one I thought of to try and abuse water bubble. Carvahna has the highest (sorry my b second highest) attack stat of lc water types and aqua jet. The idea of this set is to be as powerful as possible as a wallbreaker, while also having aqua jet to pick off offensive mons, kind of like STABmons araquanid. Not too much else to say.

Salamence (Doublade) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Fly
- Iron Head

This is kind of like the dragonite doublade last gen, but with the ability to snowball quickly with z-fly + moxie, like mence in ou. Give it a try.

As for what I think of the suspect-worthy mons in the op:

Solgaleo/Lunala as cross-evolutions - no experience

Type:Null as base Pokémon - I honestly don't think this is suspect-worthy at this point in the meta. Sure, Type:Null has great stats, but it usually has to rely on the movepool of whatever it evolves into, considering its movepool is pretty bare. Plus, while normal typing isn't terrible, it isn't great either. The only way it can change that is with a few specific evolutions, like sylveon. That could change depending on how the meta evolves, however.

Sneasel as base Pokémon OR Breloom as cross-evolution OR Beat Up - Yeah, going to have to agree with Dark Mage Evan here and say that beat up should be banned. Technician beat up is really ridiculous, but neither sneasel or breloom have proven broken outside of this one set. Plus, beat up doesn't have that much competitive use anyway.

Milotic as cross-evolution - No experience

Gligar as base Pokémon - The issue here isn't that gligar is broken, the issue is that it's over-centralizing. As noted above, gligar pretty much rules the meta and reduces creativity and diversity. It's probably suspect-worthy at this point.
 
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#6
Some cool set ideas:

Araquanid (Carvanha) @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Crunch
- Zen Headbutt

Here's one I thought of to try and abuse water bubble. Carvahna has the highest attack stat of lc water types and aqua jet. The idea of this set is to be as powerful as possible as a wallbreaker, while also having aqua jet to pick off offensive mons, kind of like STABmons araquanid. Not too much else to say.
Krabby has the highest Attack of LC Water-types. No Aqua Jet, but despite being slow and frail on the special side, it can work with heavy VoltTurn support since Banded Water Bubble Crabhammer is just ridiculous.
On Carvanha, I tried this one:

Araquanid (Carvanha) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs
- Leech Life

With a Scarf you hit 426 Speed, which is decent, allowing Carvanha to become a nice late-game cleaner. Being locked into a move rarely hurts it since the only option you really click is Liquidation. Sometimes you miss the power of a boosting item, for example you need rocks to 2HKO Spritzee x Milotic if it's not asleep. Aqua Jet may be nice to fit into the set as well, probably over the almost-useless Leech Life. Crunch is secondary STAB, and Psychic Fangs is more powerful and accurate than Zen Headbutt.
Gligar as base Pokémon - The issue here isn't that gligar is broken, the issue is that it's over-centralizing. As noted above, gligar pretty much rules the meta and reduces creativity and diversity. It's probably suspect-worthy at this point.
Pretty much this. It's not about centralization though, it's about negative centralization. Gligar has become the Aegislash of Cross Evolution: it's not broken by itself, but shuts down so many Pokémon and it is so versatile that pretty much fits on any team, erasing the viability of many potential cross-evolutions almost completely. This gen, with the discovery of new sets such as Taunt + SD (or Taunt in general) as well as the newly introduced Persian-Alola and Toxapex variants, Gligar is getting more and more overwhelming, thus it is placed on the radar.
 
#7
About time! I mean really, it felt like this took forever to finally be accepted lol. Anywho, I'll write another post later on about solga and Gligar. Mostly Solgaleo, as I think we all already know why lunala/Gligar is considered broke/unhealthy to the meta. But at the same time, underestimating Solgaleo's capabilities vs certain teams(Stall, Balance mostly)and what it gives vs other wallbreakers(thanks a lot to sunsteel)and also in terms of Ability, the Typing that it gives(which gives STAB to sunsteel kek ^-^),and movepool etc. So, yea lol I'm not really in the mood ATM sorry :/
 
#8
Question: what about mons with
A. Pre evolution exclusive moves, or
B. New type additions on a dual type and
C. Eviolite on a basic evolved into a stage one that can still evolve?
 
#9
Question: what about mons with
A. Pre evolution exclusive moves, or
B. New type additions on a dual type and
C. Eviolite on a basic evolved into a stage one that can still evolve?
A.) Example: Pika's exclusively moves is volt tackle right? So rightfully, if it evolves into say, gallade, pikachu will still have access to volt tackle (any poke evolving into another will always have access to its own movepool) and gallade's movepool(you can only choose two moves from gallade's movepool or any other poke you evolve into).

B.) Depends on the poke you're evolving into. Example: All the eeveelutions change primary typing. As in, if Onix evolves into Vaporeon, instead of being Rock/Ground typing, it'll become Water/Ground instead. Same applies to any other secondary typing changes.

C.)
"Q: How does Eviolite work?
A: Eviolite does not work on any cross-evolved Pokémon."
 
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#10
Persian-Alola (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss/Toxic
- Parting Shot/Toxic

Yay, Alolan Persian gives +25 to all stats and Fur Coat to Chansey! Don't know how viable it could be with all those strong attackers running around, but it just sounds like a nightmare anyways that could probably take their hits. If only Eviolite were allowed, then this thing would completely fulfill its duty as a cancerous pink blob.
 
#11
Persian-Alola (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss/Toxic
- Parting Shot/Toxic

Yay, Persian-Alola gives +25 to all stats and Fur Coat to Chansey! Don't know how viable it could be with all those strong attackers running around, but it just sounds like a nightmare anyways. If only Eviolite were allowed, then this thing would completely fulfill its duty as a cancerous pink blob.
Chansey can't evolve into Persian-alola due to both of them being stage 2 in their evolutionary-line, did you even read the rules/how to play above? And actually, chansey can't evolve into much, only able to evolve into 3-4 pokes iirc lol.
 
#12
Chansey can't evolve into Persian-alola due to both of them being stage 2 in their evolutionary-line, did you even read the rules/how to play above? And actually, chansey can't evolve into much, only able to evolve into 3-4 pokes iirc lol.
Well, based on the info given in the OP, Alolan-Persian would be "Stage 2" because Aloan-Meowth evolves into it. I'm assuming "Stage 1" means Basic, so it wouldn't count Happiny, making Chansey "Stage 1". This means that Chansey (Stage 1) can evolve into Alolan Perisan, a (Stage 2), unless of course this is counting Baby Pokemon as "Stage 1".
 
#13
Persian-Alola (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss/Toxic
- Parting Shot/Toxic

Yay, Alolan Persian gives +25 to all stats and Fur Coat to Chansey! Don't know how viable it could be with all those strong attackers running around, but it just sounds like a nightmare anyways that could probably take their hits. If only Eviolite were allowed, then this thing would completely fulfill its duty as a cancerous pink blob.
Chansey can't do that, for reasons given above. (Happiny can, but that's not ideal.)
But what can do this... is Sandygast. (Was about to say Marenie, but that gains most of its defenses upon evolution, which is kind of bleh)

Persian-Alola (Sandygast) @ Leftovers/Darkium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Shore Up
- Foul Play/Shadow Ball
- Earth Power/Toxic
- Parting Shot

80/105/70 bulk is not the best, but it is enough to make Fur Coat pretty potent, and far more than its natural user. AND with recovery, which is the big selling point here. Still seems a bit underwhelming when compared to the powerhouses in here.

Toxapex Type:Null seems like something that's hell to break through. Hello, stupidly impossible Regenerator bulk! (and hazards)
 
#14
Just theorymoning here as I've never actually played the meta and have no real idea what people use outside of the centralising threats mentioned, so take this post with a grain of salt.

Mudsdale (Vullaby) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Defog / Taunt
- U-Turn / Toxic

New Stats: 100/80/105/55/95/50
Mudsdale Vullaby sounds to me like it could be an awesome pokemon in this meta. Stamina is an epic ability when combined with recovery, allowing Vullaby to take on a multitude of physical attackers like a champ. In fact the best way for physical attackers to get past Stamina users is generally through setting up on them as opposed to attacking, via moves like Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. This method is however inefficient against Vullaby as it boasts the awesome STAB Foul Play to tear apart mons who attempt to set up in front of you. Mudsdale's movepool is extremely lacking and not really worth inheriting from for any pokemon, but this isn't a problem for Vullaby as Mandibuzz in standards already suffers from quite high 4MSS due to its expansive utility options. What's cool too is that Mudsdale Vullaby may be one of the best answers to the aforementioned Breloom Weavile, as it resists Beat Up and can boost to +6 Def in one turn should it tank one, plus it hardly has to worry about Mach Punch.

Bibarel (Tirtouga) @ White Herb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall / Earthquake / Superpower
- Aqua Jet / Earthquake / Superpower

New Stats: 74/118/123/73/65/62
Pretty self explanatory. 74/123 Defence should mean that setting up a Shell Smash shouldn't be too tricky, and then with Simple you gain +4 Atk, +4 SpA and +4 Spe in one turn. From there you should have enough speed to run Adamant and nuke things with Stone Edge. Waterfall is a less powerful but more reliable secondary STAB with a neat little chance to flinch, and Aqua Jet defends you and opposing priority users. Earthquake or Superpower may be used over either Water move as coverage to hit whatever possible checks may be common in the meta like perhaps Ferroseed or Defensive Primaldon respectively.

Exeggutor-Alola (Ponyta) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Hammer
- Leaf Storm / Solar Beam
- Morning Sun

New Stats: 85/150/60/130/95/95
I wanted to make a mixed attacker to make use of Alolan Exeggutor's awesome offensive boosts, Ponyta struck me as a good option due to it great typing alongside nice mixed offences and a usable Speed tier. STAB Flare Blitz off of 150 Atk is a decent nuke, Dragon Hammer kills opposing Dragons and is a far less suicidal STAB. Leaf Storm rounds out the attacks to provide perfect neutral coverage outside of any Fairy/Dragons, and takes out physically defensive Water and Rock types. Morning Sun seems pretty necessary to me as with SR weakness and FB Recoil it is easy to get worn down super fast. Also 85/95 SpD is perhaps usable against resisted hits, and Fire/Dragon is pretty good defensive typing, so Morning Sun can help get extra mileage out of that too. Sitrus Berry + Harvest helps with everything that Morning Sun does, giving the illusion of surprisingly respectable bulk. This set would also function awesomely with Sun support, substantially boosting Flare Blitz's damage, increasing Morning Sun's heal to 66%, giving Harvest a 100% success rate, and allowing you to swap out Leaf Storm for the more reliable and spammable Solar Beam. Of course I am unfamiliar with the standard power levels in this meta, so for all I know this could be lacking in any/all of Speed, Power and Bulk, but it does sounds pretty neat in theory.

Please don't hesitate to give feedback on any of these sets to explain what else is good about them, or why they may not be too good in practice as I'm trying to learn the meta.
 
#15
is this means anything cross evo with Alowak will be Fire/Ghost? since Cubone changed completely it's typing from ground types become Fire/Ghost.

Speaking of Cubone,
Chansey (Cubone) @ Leftovers / Shed Shell
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold / Impish Nature
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled / Wish
- Seismic Toss / Bonemerang / Earthpower
- Stealth-Rock / Toxic

new stats : 200/50/90/60/90/55.
we already know that a pokemon that have High Hp can become a good wall too. while this stat maybe look a like weaker Zygarde-C, you get something different in support that have the same as Chansey. is this good? i don't know either because i never played this metagame, but this is just my thought.

another idea of some pokemons

Doublade (Lunala) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonlight / Shadow Sneak
- Flash Cannon
- Calm Mind

or

Doublade (Lunala) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Moonlight / Shadow Claw / Moongeist Beam
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head

New Stats : 150/ 194 / 108 / 153 / 25 / 95

this is what i think when cross evo as lunala, it's attacking stat is almost the same level as Mega Mewtwo X with the cost of minimum SpD and 95 Spe. you can do this to as a Lairon who gave less attack but more 5 speed and Stealth Rock.

Doduo (Froslass) @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability : Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Shadow Claw
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond

New Stats : 55 / 115 / 65 / 55 / 55 / 135

as far as i want offensive Normal / Ghost, this is the most i can think of, Gen 7 gave us new method to change to ghost types but Decidueye stat spread is pretty bad. you can give it to Type Null but i don't think it will stay in this tier for a long time.

Magneton (Vikavolt) @ Life Orb
Ability : Levitate
EVs : 252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Roost / Agility

New Stats : 70 / 55 / 90 / 210 / 75 / 77

Steel / Electric with Levitate and 210 SAtk?. Come On !

another? Porygon2 + Lunala. Epic cancerous.

i am new to this meta, if wrong please forgive me ..
 
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#17
I think you guys are forgetting this is a Ubers based meta, so stuff like Primal Don and Mega Mence are available. Yeah stats aren't everything, as seen in Gyarados Scyther even with massive stats being kinda awful, but that Froslass Doduo with 115 ATK is bad, that Lunala Doublade is just a worse Electabuzz in every sense, maybe more comparable would be a worse Solgaleo Dusclops, that Ponyta is too slow and frail, Tirtouga is cool and all but it become pure Water, so no STAB Stone Edge, and 100/105/95 bulk is too low for this meta. While yes crossing into Chansey automatically makes you a decent special tank, wouldn't something like Hippopotas be better, IDK, it may break the stat cap.

Also don't use Cosmeon, Toxapex gives similar bonuses and regenerator, which is much better. Also highest HP goes to Wailmer I think.
 
#18
I think you guys are forgetting this is a Ubers based meta, so stuff like Primal Don and Mega Mence are available. Yeah stats aren't everything, as seen in Gyarados Scyther even with massive stats being kinda awful, but that Froslass Doduo with 115 ATK is bad, that Lunala Doublade is just a worse Electabuzz in every sense, maybe more comparable would be a worse Solgaleo Dusclops, that Ponyta is too slow and frail, Tirtouga is cool and all but it become pure Water, so no STAB Stone Edge, and 100/105/95 bulk is too low for this meta. While yes crossing into Chansey automatically makes you a decent special tank, wouldn't something like Hippopotas be better, IDK, it may break the stat cap.

Also don't use Cosmeon, Toxapex gives similar bonuses and regenerator, which is much better. Also highest HP goes to Wailmer I think.
actually i'm thinking based on uber meta, that's why i give cubone a shed shell so it can't be trapped like something as M-Gengar
yeah Frosslass Doduo is bad, but that's what am i thinking if i want to use Normal/Ghost without something like Lunala. Obviously Porygon2 is better, 213 SAtk and 120 Spe for uber based when tuff like Primal Groudon exist, this is have "fast speed" and you can go Z-Conversion because Shadow Shield and is immune to E-Speed Arceus. even with bad defenses, after go Z-Conversion, it will be okayish defense because of high HP (174/48/71), that's why i see something cancerous. about doublade lunala, yeah maybe that bad because i rarely see Aegislash running in uber now,

oh yeah, Cubone actually have higher physical defense than Hippopotas and similiar SpDef

252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cubone: 332-392 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 374-444 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cubone: 416-492 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippopotas: 440-522 (68.7 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Cubone Defenses with Chansey stat added : 200/90/90
Hippopotas Defenses with Chansey stat added : 218/78/82

yeah i think cubone is better except for the attack stat, which both is low for uber standard anyway.

ah don't forget that munchlax also have better physical defense than wailmer with 130/40/85. but type Null exist.
 
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#19
On the radar threats reasoning:
Solgaleo and Lunala are the first Legendary Pokémon that are part of an evolutionary family, granting massive BST boosts to stage 2 Pokémon (which most of the time have higher BST than stage 1 Pokémon). But the problem is not exactly BST, but where the boosts lie:

Solgaleo: +94 HP / +108 Atk / -24 Def / +84 SpA / -42 SpD /+ 60 Spe


Lunala: +94 HP / + 84 Atk / -42 Def / +108 SpA / -24 SpD / +60 Spe
At the cost of defenses, Solgaleo/Lunala give absurd boosts to offenses. The Speed boost allow Solgaleo/Lunala cross-evolution's to hit a really high speed tier making them a nightmare for HO teams. Reduced defenses are, in part, fixed by Shadow Shield (in Lunala's case) and the extra Steel-type (in Solgaleo's case) allowing them to even switch in on a threat or take a hit avoiding the OHKO. On the other hand, Solgaleo's crosses are usually weak to Mach Punch, a common priority move, while Lunala's extra Ghost-type grants a weakness to the less common Shadow Sneak (but still used on Pokémon like Honedge, Shuppet or Aegislash).
Solgaleo and Lunala also match-up very well versus balance and stall teams and they're one, if not the, biggest reason why stall teams are almost non-existant unlike last gen. Both Solgaleo and Lunala give access to a high-powered STAB move that ignores common defensive abilities such as Multiscale, Unaware and Fur Coat, which combined with the massive boosts in both offenses make Solgaleo/Lunala crosses extremely difficult to switch into.
Lunala's cross-evolutions tipically have access to a ton of coverage options and Ghost STAB alone is resisted by few threats. For example, Electabuzz x Lunala can even fit both of BoltBeam and Ghost + Fighting coverage in a single set if it's willing to give up Volt Switch, and Porygon2 has a good starting movepool already and gains access to Focus Blast to get rid of annoying Normal-type Unawares (which might come in trying to stop Z-Conversion sweeps).
Solgaleo's cross-evolutions get access to Z-Splash and a STAB that nothing is immune to and can break through Unaware and Fur Coat, all while being immune to Intimidate. They are often more set-up oriented since Solgaleo doesn't grant that much coverage when compared to Lunala, but in return they can get past Unaware more easily since most common abusers are Normal-types, immune to Ghost.
To sum up, Solgaleo/Lunala put huge pressure on all kinds of teams and are very difficult to stop due to their combination of huge offensive stats and Speed, wide coverage, high-powered STABs and abilites.
Common Lunala abusers are Electabuzz and Porygon2, while common Solgaleo abusers are Magmar, Fraxure/Dragonair and Rhydon.


Type:Null overtook Scyther has the highest BST stage 1 Pokémon, with it's all-round 95 starting stats. Its balanced stats allow it to become more unpredictable than the generally physically attacking Scyther, which is also held back by a terrible typing and poor starting STABs.
Due to its great stats, Type:Null can pull off all sorts of offensive sets, even crossed with Pokémon that grant low stat boosts, to become a bulky attacker. Type:Null is also capable of viably running absurdly bulky defensive sets when crossed with Pokémon such as Milotic and Quagsire, such sets are extremely tough to break without STAB Fighting-type attacks (provided Type:Null does not change type in the first place, but most of the time it keeps its Normal-type even if sets such as Sylveon are viable). All in all, Type:Null it's very difficult to predict at Team Preview due to being able to viably run a myriad of options, with its defensive sets particularly standing out because of their really high bulk.
Type:Null's held back by a variety of factors though. Type:Null's versatility is limited due to its horrible movepool, which literally features no special attacks aside from Tri Attack, the mostly useless Hidden Power and Air Slash, and the totally unviable Round and Razor Wind. Because of this fact, Type:Null can be outclassed by fellow Normal-types Porygon and Porygon2 despite their lower stats due to their much wider coverage, if it attempts to run a specially offensive set. Thus Type:Null only tends to use its special movepool when running defensive sets. In general, Type:Null is very reliant on its different crosses to get useful moves, since it lacks recovery or support options besides Roar, U-turn and Toxic, and its offensive coverage it's pretty bad even when running physically offensive sets. This might make Type:Null much more predictable once its nickname it's revealed. Type:Null's low Speed might become an issue as well when using offensive sets while defensive ones are usually shut down by Taunt as well as having similar movesets.
Despite all of this, Type:Null's defensive sets can wall a very large portion of the metagame, and it's also capable of running many different offensive sets (such as Banded wallbreaker or set-up sweeper), all of which have good power, somewhat decent coverage and high bulk for an offensive powerhouse. Nothing can have as many viable potential crosses as Type:Null does.

Simply put, the problem is this set:

Breloom (Sneasel) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Beat Up
- Mach Punch / Poison Jab / Icicle Crash
- Swords Dance

Sneasel's Beat Up lead set forces the use of extremely obscure answers such as Safety Goggles Rhydon x Gallade in order to prevent it from steamrolling entire teams from Team Preview. Sneasel can Spore whatever the opposing lead is with the aid of a Focus Sash, set up SD, and start spamming Beat Up, a move that, when boosted, can achieve feats such as OHKOing Gligar x Gyarados and just about anything that doesn't resist it.
There are two reasons why Beat Up, a usually useless move on other tiers, gets the chance to shine in Cross Evolution. Beat Up's BP depends on the base Attack stats of every member of your team, and the average base Attack stat is higher in Cross Evolution than in standard tiers, thus Beat Up is also more powerful. Sneasel x Breloom also has a very high Attack stat (which is used for damage calcs other than the move's BP), and gets STAB and Technician boost on Beat Up.
Sneasel's Beat Up set has very few checks and most of them can be dealt with the appropiate coverage move. Sneasel x Breloom has 150 base Speed, and with +2 Mach Punch it can outpace and beat most other priority users or, alternatively, if they outspeed or outprioritize Sneasel, survive the hit with a Focus Sash and either retaliate with Beat Up (which is likely to OHKO the target if it doesn't resist it) or sleep it with Spore. With the new Gen 7 mechanics, Sneasel is now immune to Prankster as well.
Perhaps the only non-gimmick Sneasel check is Spritzee x Milotic, but Sneasel can sleep it and even use it as set-up fodder while Spritzee relies on Sleep Talk rolls picking Moonblast (33% chance), and pressure it or even take it out with boosted Poison Jabs. In any case if Sneasel is packing Poison Jab, chances are Spritzee will get severly damaged in the process of taking out Sneasel, which combined with its low Speed means that it cannot perform its role as bulky wincon later in the game.
Another potential check is Safety Goggles Rhydon x Gallade. With Lum Berry you step out of gimmick territory but Sneasel can just then use Spore twice. Earthquake and Close Combat can break Sneasel in two hits taking Sash into account and Sneasel might be discouraged of using Beat Up since Rhydon x Gallade both resists Dark and has Justified as an ability, maxing out its Attack after being hit by Beat Up. Rhydon also resists Poison Jab and can take Mach Punch, but will fall to Sneasel if it's packing the rare Icicle Crash.
Perhaps Sneasel's Beat Up set biggest drawback is that it doesn't work well out of the lead position because of Beat Up's mechanics. However, spotting a Sneasel during Team Preview is no guarantee that it will be the opponent's lead. Sneasel has access to different viable sets such as Hitmonchan or Aurorus that work outside of the lead position. Even if the opponent leads with a Sneasel x Breloom, there's no guarantee that is the Beat Up lead set and not the Spore + 3 attacks one.

While Milotic is widely used to make defensive threats, RestTalk sets made out with Milotic are a problem within the metagame. Spritzee is the most famous one, but the reason Milotic is the one on the radar and not Spritzee is because, without Spritzee, Swirlix will just take its place and it will probably be almost as problematic as Spritzee is right now.

Spritzee ===> Milotic:
Stats:153/97/119/153/135/24
Abilities: Marvel Scale/Competitive/Cute Charm
Type: Fairy
Weight: 155.1 kg (100 BP)
Spritzee has very high 153/119/135 invested defensive stats, coupled with a great defensive typing. While it has access to reliable recovery in Wish or Recover, Rest is usually prefrered since it triggers Marvel Scale boosting Spritzee's Defense further and making it extremely difficult to break. Nothing is immune to Moonblast which means that Spritzee can break most opposition with enough Calm Mind boosts under its belt. While Spritzee often invests in Defense, which is boosted by 50% when asleep, Calm Mind makes it progressively more and more specially bulky, which means Spritzee is quickly insanely tough to get past. It gets to the point Spritzee can even set up in passive Steel-types such as defensive Doublade or Magneton and beat them 1v1 despite their STAB super-effective attacks (unless Doublade/Magneton crit on in Doublade's case flinches Spirtzee to death), even if the latter is often invested to avoid the 2HKO from +3 Spritzee's Moonblast.
There are a few ways to get past Spritzee. Extremely powerful wallbreakers, such as Krabby x Araquanid and Archen x Hitmonlee, can 2HKO even asleep Spritzee and OHKO it after a bit of prior damage, but they often have to sacrifice or take heavy recoil to do so. Even if Spritzee switches out the opponent will be hard-pressed to find a switch in to such powerful wallbreakers, but they might attempt to force Archen to die out of recoil, even if it often means to sacrifice 1 or 2 Pokémon.
Offensive Pokémon with STAB super-effective attacks, such as SD Doublade x Dragonite, Klang x Tsareena and Haunter x Togekiss are some of Spritzee's most reliable checks, even if they cannot take many Moonblasts. Problem is some of these Pokémon are often slapped into a team with no synergy with them just so it doesn't autolose to Spritzee. Physical set-up sweepers in general fall into the same boat, they can attempt to break Spritzee but they cannot take a lot of Moonblasts either.
Defensive answers include Unaware users such as Type:Null, and Haze Chansey. While these Pokémon can take hits from Spritzee all day, they usually cannot break it either, just neutralize it, and Spritzee can try to PP stall them with Rest.
Taunt in general shuts down Spritzee completely if it doesn't have too many boosts yet. Taunt is surprisingly uncommon but it's seen on Gligar from time to time, for example.
Magmar x Serperior it's a special case. It cannot take many Moonblasts even if it resists them, but with the aid of Contrary it can outpace Spritzee's boosts and easily overwhelm it. +2 Overheat OHKOes Spritzee after Stealth Rock. Magmar can even nab Special Attack boosts when tanking Moonblasts.
Another Spritzee flaw is it's horrendous Speed, which means that it is very easily revenged killed after taking a heavy hit before it gets the chance to Rest. In general however, Spritzee it's an extremely restricting metagame force.


Gligar has been covered in previous posts both in the ORAS and the SM thread, since it has been since Gen 6 the most influential Pokémon in Cross Evolution, centralizing the metagame around it. Quoting Stocke from the Gen 6 thread, since it explains very well why is gligar so good:
Gyarados' Speed base stat boost is only +1 so the only real way it creates fast offensive 'mons is through Dragon Dance. Flying isn't really a bad defensive typing from my experience in Cross Evolution since it does resist a very prominent offensive typing in Fighting, though the weakness to Ice is a bit unfortunate thanks to the prevalence of things like Sneasel and the Rock weakness, like in most metas, is generally a pain. The more important thing to point out regarding Gyarados adding a Flying-type is that it doesn't come with a good Flying STAB move; it has Bounce which has a nice chance of paralysis, but it's also fairly inaccurate and the fact that it executes over two turns generally isn't preferable. in addition, +75/+80 special bulk isn't just "usable"; I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure it's the highest boost to special bulk for any possible cross evolution (even higher than Milotic which you've already covered)

all of these factors combined make Gligar far and away the best choice for cross-evolving into Gyarados; its starting defensive stats (65/105/65) complement Gyarados' defensive gains (+75/+24/+80) very well in conjunction with Intimidate, not to mention comes pre-loaded with a solid Flying STAB in Acrobatics which, while it requires Gligar to run itemless in order to make full usage of it, is generally better than what Gyarados, or even many other potential candidates for evolving into Gyarados, can offer up, and with base 190 attack (Gligar's 75 plus Gyarados' +115) it doesn't really need to hold a boosting item to be threatening offensively. Gligar also has reliable recovery in Roost (another critical lack in Gyarados' movepool if you'd choose to use it for defensive purposes) plus three very useful utility moves in U-turn, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock, which make Gligar very suitable for the role of a tank or utility pivot. Gligar's base Speed of 85 is still decent enough to allow it to run viable Dragon Dance sets even with Gyarados' pitiful Speed gain; I'd recommend a bulky Dragon Dance set as it's been very useful for me during the times I've used it, and while offensive Dragon Dance sets might be a bit outclassed by other Gligar evolutions such as Gligar x Barbaracle (Shell Smash) it still might be worth a shot.

I'd honestly consider Gligar x Gyarados to be the equivalent of Ubers Primal Groudon; while it doesn't exert the same impact on the metagame as Primal Groudon does with regards to rendering other Pokémon (aside from those in direct competition for its slot) unviable, its support and offensive sets are capable of improving nearly any team to the point that unless you're running hyper offense there's very little reason not to run it. While other Gyarados evolutions such as Scyther may be good, Gligar just outdoes them in so many ways that I'd say its only real competition for its slot is if Gligar would rather benefit from evolving into another Pokémon (Barbaracle being a particularly good choice for an offensive set, I'm not really sure about others). To put this into context, Gligar x Gyarados would near-completely outclass Primal Groudon if not for Primal Groudon's immunity to Water, less cost for running Thunder Wave (Gligar x Gyarados gets it too but its support sets can't always afford to run it), access to powerful or otherwise useful Fire moves like Lava Plume, and the fact that Gligar and Primal Groudon complement each other pretty well typing-wise (namely Gligar's immunity to Ground and PDon's immunity to Water, each of which the other is weak to).
Since this is a Ubers-based metagame I'm fine with some centralization around a single Pokémon, but as the Gen 7 metagame develops, Gligar is getting progressively more and more overwhelming and it has started to negatively influence the metagame, rendering lots of potential Cross Evolutions unviable (as Stocke points out, during Gen 6 Gligar rendered unviable any direct competition. In Gen 7, it invalidates pretty much anything hard-stopped by it), due to more and more new sets being discovered and new potential crosses introduced this gen such as Perisan-Alola.
 
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#20
Uhm maybe I just assumed Hippopotas was bulkier since suggestions for cross evos involving it are more common (Gyarados, Toxapex, Armaldo for Critrhydon), altough I will attribute that to inherit recovery in Slack Off.

"But why did u mention Gyarados Hippopotas, isn't just inferior?" Oh my friend you are absolutely right, but this is what people are assuming the next Gligod will be. I mean same typing, of course same ability, recovery, not only the decrease in stats but the lack of u-turn mommentum and defog also hamper it a lot. I just wanted to mention this before some smart ass says that it isn't banworthy if we can still basically have it.

Anyways, I would also like to address the idea that Gligar and Milotic aren't banworthy but Gyarados and Sprit should be banned instead. These ideas are not common for any other evo but I've seen people say that the ban is backwards.

Firstly Gyrados is not that overwhelmingly good with anything else, tell me a Gyarados threat other than Gligar. And if you say Scyther I'm gonna laugh. Anyways, Gligar always had other options, Hariyama, Chansey IIRC (Might break the cap), Hitmonlee, and now Toxapex and Alola Persian, all of which are pretty good BTW.

In the case of MiloSprit, while Milotic is generally better, gives recovery and doesn't give a typing, which in Gyarados case turns out to be mostly detrimental. The thing is that, as a base Sprit just is 't that good for many other things, I've personaly tried Alola Persian and it doesn't even compare, Milotic also makes mons like Chinchou, Finneon and a few other viable just from the boosts and makes others like Tangela amazing cleric that is almost unbreakeable.
 
#21
Anyways, I would also like to address the idea that Gligar and Milotic aren't banworthy but Gyarados and Sprit should be banned instead. These ideas are not common for any other evo but I've seen people say that the ban is backwards.

Firstly Gyrados is not that overwhelmingly good with anything else, tell me a Gyarados threat other than Gligar. And if you say Scyther I'm gonna laugh. Anyways, Gligar always had other options, Hariyama, Chansey IIRC (Might break the cap), Hitmonlee, and now Toxapex and Alola Persian, all of which are pretty good BTW.

In the case of MiloSprit, while Milotic is generally better, gives recovery and doesn't give a typing, which in Gyarados case turns out to be mostly detrimental. The thing is that, as a base Sprit just is 't that good for many other things, I've personaly tried Alola Persian and it doesn't even compare, Milotic also makes mons like Chinchou, Finneon and a few other viable just from the boosts and makes others like Tangela amazing cleric that is almost unbreakeable.
I've already covered why Milotic would get the suspect and not Spritzee. You yourself said it, Spritzee without Milotic will take a really hard hit and it will be manageable. And yes, Chinchou, Finneon and the like will have to find other Pokémon to cross into. Or just use Waterceus. Meanwhile Tangela has a lot of offensive and defensive good options such as Volcarona and Chansey respectively.
On Gligar, again, you yourself said it: without Gligar, Gyarados should be perfectly manageable. This proves Gligar is the problem and not Gyarados. Gligar will take a hit without Gyarados, but it still has a ton of potential cross-evolutions to run and dominate the metagame again. Admittedly, maybe its influence is not as negative as before, but it's just better to outright suspect Gligar which is, in fact, the problem; instead of just "nerfing" it.
 
#22
http://www.smogon.com/forums/attachments/img_0325-png.77770/?temp_hash=76b68d94953430b31a2fcbbd02e9fbf5
For some reason it says this electabuzz is illegal. Is this a glitch?

So this post has substance, I agree with cross-evolving into milotic being banned. Spritzee is so hard to deal with, being so bulky and, like dsm said, if spritzee is banned, swirlix would take its place. Then another stage one fairy. It's like poison heal in gen 6 aaa, when lax and cune were banned, Manaphy just became overcentralizing.

Agree with beat up, gligar, and solg/lunala getting banned (as much as I love using lunala buzz, it's p broken), not much to add.

I, again, don't think type:null should be banned. At least not yet. It's unpredictable, yes, but none of the sets are overpowered, just strong. And I don't believe it is at gligar levels ovetcentralizing yet. It has problems, but dsm already pointed those out and I'm not trying to be redundant. It just has a lot of good sets, both offensive and defensive. Plus, once the name is revealed, you usually know the general set. This all might change once others are banned, but as of right now, I don't think type:null is worthy of a ban.
 

Attachments

#23
this means anything cross evo with Alowak will be Fire/Ghost?
Yes it would, I've updated my post to reflect that. (I wonder whether the type change will make Scyther x Marowak-Alola viable?)
For some reason it says this electabuzz is illegal. Is this a glitch?
No, it's just that you're only allowed two of Lunala's moves.
 
#24
On the radar threats reasoning:
Solgaleo and Lunala are the first Legendary Pokémon that are part of an evolutionary family, granting massive BST boosts to stage 2 Pokémon (which most of the time have higher BST than stage 1 Pokémon). But the problem is not exactly BST, but where the boosts lie:

Solgaleo: +94 HP / +108 Atk / -24 Def / +84 SpA / -42 SpD /+ 60 Spe


Lunala: +94 HP / + 84 Atk / -42 Def / +108 SpA / -24 SpD / +60 Spe
At the cost of defenses, Solgaleo/Lunala give absurd boosts to offenses. The Speed boost allow Solgaleo/Lunala cross-evolution's to hit a really high speed tier making them a nightmare for HO teams. Reduced defenses are, in part, fixed by Shadow Shield (in Lunala's case) and the extra Steel-type (in Solgaleo's case) allowing them to even switch in on a threat or take a hit avoiding the OHKO. On the other hand, Solgaleo's crosses are usually weak to Mach Punch, a common priority move, while Lunala's extra Ghost-type grants a weakness to the less common Shadow Sneak (but still used on Pokémon like Honedge, Shuppet or Aegislash).
Solgaleo and Lunala also match-up very well versus balance and stall teams and they're one, if not the, biggest reason why stall teams are almost non-existant unlike last gen. Both Solgaleo and Lunala give access to a high-powered STAB move that ignores common defensive abilities such as Multiscale, Unaware and Fur Coat, which combined with the massive boosts in both offenses make Solgaleo/Lunala crosses extremely difficult to switch into.
Lunala's cross-evolutions tipically have access to a ton of coverage options and Ghost STAB alone is resisted by few threats. For example, Electabuzz x Lunala can even fit both of BoltBeam and Ghost + Fighting coverage in a single set if it's willing to give up Volt Switch, and Porygon2 has a good starting movepool already and gains access to Focus Blast to get rid of annoying Normal-type Unawares (which might come in trying to stop Z-Conversion sweeps).
Solgaleo's cross-evolutions get access to Z-Splash and a STAB that nothing is immune to and can break through Unaware and Fur Coat, all while being immune to Intimidate. They are often more set-up oriented since Solgaleo doesn't grant that much coverage when compared to Lunala, but in return they can get past Unaware more easily since most common abusers are Normal-types, immune to Ghost.
To sum up, Solgaleo/Lunala put huge pressure on all kinds of teams and are very difficult to stop due to their combination of huge offensive stats and Speed, wide coverage, high-powered STABs and abilites.
Common Lunala abusers are Electabuzz and Porygon2, while common Solgaleo abusers are Magmar, Fraxure/Dragonair and Rhydon.


Type:Null overtook Scyther has the highest BST stage 1 Pokémon, with it's all-round 95 starting stats. Its balanced stats allow it to become more unpredictable than the generally physically attacking Scyther, which is also held back by a terrible typing and poor starting STABs.
Due to its great stats, Type:Null can pull off all sorts of offensive sets, even crossed with Pokémon that grant low stat boosts, to become a bulky attacker. Type:Null is also capable of viably running absurdly bulky defensive sets when crossed with Pokémon such as Milotic and Quagsire, such sets are extremely tough to break without STAB Fighting-type attacks (provided Type:Null does not change type in the first place, but most of the time it keeps its Normal-type even if sets such as Sylveon are viable). All in all, Type:Null it's very difficult to predict at Team Preview due to being able to viably run a myriad of options, with its defensive sets particularly standing out because of their really high bulk.
Type:Null's held back by a variety of factors though. Type:Null's versatility is limited due to its horrible movepool, which literally features no special attacks aside from Tri Attack, the mostly useless Hidden Power and Air Slash, and the totally unviable Round and Razor Wind. Because of this fact, Type:Null can be outclassed by fellow Normal-types Porygon and Porygon2 despite their lower stats due to their much wider coverage, if it attempts to run a specially offensive set. Thus Type:Null only tends to use its special movepool when running defensive sets. In general, Type:Null is very reliant on its different crosses to get useful moves, since it lacks recovery or support options besides Roar, U-turn and Toxic, and its offensive coverage it's pretty bad even when running physically offensive sets. This might make Type:Null much more predictable once its nickname it's revealed. Type:Null's low Speed might become an issue as well when using offensive sets while defensive ones are usually shut down by Taunt as well as having similar movesets.
Despite all of this, Type:Null's defensive sets can wall a very large portion of the metagame, and it's also capable of running many different offensive sets (such as Banded wallbreaker or set-up sweeper), all of which have good power, somewhat decent coverage and high bulk for an offensive powerhouse. Nothing can have as many viable potential crosses as Type:Null does.

Simply put, the problem is this set:

Breloom (Sneasel) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Beat Up
- Mach Punch / Poison Jab / Icicle Crash
- Swords Dance

Sneasel's Beat Up lead set forces the use of extremely obscure answers such as Safety Goggles Rhydon x Gallade in order to prevent it from steamrolling entire teams from Team Preview. Sneasel can Spore whatever the opposing lead is with the aid of a Focus Sash, set up SD, and start spamming Beat Up, a move that, when boosted, can achieve feats such as OHKOing Gligar x Gyarados and just about anything that doesn't resist it.
There are two reasons why Beat Up, a usually useless move on other tiers, gets the chance to shine in Cross Evolution. Beat Up's BP depends on the base Attack stats of every member of your team, and the average base Attack stat is higher in Cross Evolution than in standard tiers, thus Beat Up is also more powerful. Sneasel x Breloom also has a very high Attack stat (which is used for damage calcs other than the move's BP), and gets STAB and Technician boost on Beat Up.
Sneasel's Beat Up set has very few checks and most of them can be dealt with the appropiate coverage move. Sneasel x Breloom has 150 base Speed, and with +2 Mach Punch it can outpace and beat most other priority users or, alternatively, if they outspeed or outprioritize Sneasel, survive the hit with a Focus Sash and either retaliate with Beat Up (which is likely to OHKO the target if it doesn't resist it) or sleep it with Spore. With the new Gen 7 mechanics, Sneasel is now immune to Prankster as well.
Perhaps the only non-gimmick Sneasel check is Spritzee x Milotic, but Sneasel can sleep it and even use it as set-up fodder while Spritzee relies on Sleep Talk rolls picking Moonblast (33% chance), and pressure it or even take it out with boosted Poison Jabs. In any case if Sneasel is packing Poison Jab, chances are Spritzee will get severly damaged in the process of taking out Sneasel, which combined with its low Speed means that it cannot perform its role as bulky wincon later in the game.
Another potential check is Safety Goggles Rhydon x Gallade. With Lum Berry you step out of gimmick territory but Sneasel can just then use Spore twice. Earthquake and Close Combat can break Sneasel in two hits taking Sash into account and Sneasel might be discouraged of using Beat Up since Rhydon x Gallade both resists Dark and has Justified as an ability, maxing out its Attack after being hit by Beat Up. Rhydon also resists Poison Jab and can take Mach Punch, but will fall to Sneasel if it's packing the rare Icicle Crash.
Perhaps Sneasel's Beat Up set biggest drawback is that it doesn't work well out of the lead position because of Beat Up's mechanics. However, spotting a Sneasel during Team Preview is no guarantee that it will be the opponent's lead. Sneasel has access to different viable sets such as Hitmonchan or Aurorus that work outside of the lead position. Even if the opponent leads with a Sneasel x Breloom, there's no guarantee that is the Beat Up lead set and not the Spore + 3 attacks one.

While Milotic is widely used to make defensive threats, RestTalk sets made out with Milotic are a problem within the metagame. Spritzee is the most famous one, but the reason Milotic is the one on the radar and not Spritzee is because, without Spritzee, Swirlix will just take its place and it will probably be almost as problematic as Spritzee is right now.

Spritzee ===> Milotic:
Stats:153/97/119/153/135/24
Abilities: Marvel Scale/Competitive/Cute Charm
Type: Fairy
Weight: 155.1 kg (100 BP)
Spritzee has very high 153/119/135 invested defensive stats, coupled with a great defensive typing. While it has access to reliable recovery in Wish or Recover, Rest is usually prefrered since it triggers Marvel Scale boosting Spritzee's Defense further and making it extremely difficult to break. Nothing is immune to Moonblast which means that Spritzee can break most opposition with enough Calm Mind boosts under its belt. While Spritzee often invests in Defense, which is boosted by 50% when asleep, Calm Mind makes it progressively more and more specially bulky, which means Spritzee is quickly insanely tough to get past. It gets to the point Spritzee can even set up in passive Steel-types such as defensive Doublade or Magneton and beat them 1v1 despite their STAB super-effective attacks (unless Doublade/Magneton crit on in Doublade's case flinches Spirtzee to death), even if the latter is often invested to avoid the 2HKO from +3 Spritzee's Moonblast.
There are a few ways to get past Spritzee. Extremely powerful wallbreakers, such as Krabby x Araquanid and Archen x Hitmonlee, can 2HKO even asleep Spritzee and OHKO it after a bit of prior damage, but they often have to sacrifice or take heavy recoil to do so. Even if Spritzee switches out the opponent will be hard-pressed to find a switch in to such powerful wallbreakers, but they might attempt to force Archen to die out of recoil, even if it often means to sacrifice 1 or 2 Pokémon.
Offensive Pokémon with STAB super-effective attacks, such as SD Doublade x Dragonite, Klang x Tsareena and Haunter x Togekiss are some of Spritzee's most reliable checks, even if they cannot take many Moonblasts. Problem is some of these Pokémon are often slapped into a team with no synergy with them just so it doesn't autolose to Spritzee. Physical set-up sweepers in general fall into the same boat, they can attempt to break Spritzee but they cannot take a lot of Moonblasts either.
Defensive answers include Unaware users such as Type:Null, and Haze Chansey. While these Pokémon can take hits from Spritzee all day, they usually cannot break it either, just neutralize it, and Spritzee can try to PP stall them with Rest.
Taunt in general shuts down Spritzee completely if it doesn't have too many boosts yet. Taunt is surprisingly uncommon but it's seen on Gligar from time to time, for example.
Magmar x Serperior it's a special case. It cannot take many Moonblasts even if it resists them, but with the aid of Contrary it can outpace Spritzee's boosts and easily overwhelm it. +2 Overheat OHKOes Spritzee after Stealth Rock. Magmar can even nab Special Attack boosts when tanking Moonblasts.
Another Spritzee flaw is it's horrendous Speed, which means that it is very easily revenged killed after taking a heavy hit before it gets the chance to Rest. In general however, Spritzee it's an extremely restricting metagame force.


Gligar has been covered in previous posts both in the ORAS and the SM thread, since it has been since Gen 6 the most influential Pokémon in Cross Evolution, centralizing the metagame around it. Quoting Stocke from the Gen 6 thread, since it explains very well why is gligar so good:

Since this is a Ubers-based metagame I'm fine with some centralization around a single Pokémon, but as the Gen 7 metagame develops, Gligar is getting progressively more and more overwhelming and it has started to negatively influence the metagame, rendering lots of potential Cross Evolutions unviable (as Stocke points out, during Gen 6 Gligar rendered unviable any direct competition. In Gen 7, it invalidates pretty much anything hard-stopped by it), due to more and more new sets being discovered and new potential crosses introduced this gen such as Perisan-Alola.
Spot on! Almost took the words out my mouth lol(specifically the Solga x Lunala Argument). Mind if I add on to the argument? No? Oh geez, thanks pal! Lol

I'll like to start of by saying, Lunala isn't really a problem vs stall(Yes, that's including Electabuzz x lunala). As pretty much, any bulky normal type evolved into either toxapex, or chansey(or chansey herself might be the best answer tbr),can handle any lunala x anything,Thanks to being immune to moongiest beam obv. But stall's issue is literally Solgaleo. But I'll get into that later on this post


252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 258-304 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Electabuzz Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 187-221 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock if you're wondering why +spd, it's because chansey can easily be overpowered if running bold(besides it's not tanking ANY physically damage by crossevo's standards). The Power creep in this meta is pretty unreal.

252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 181-214 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 91.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. This is decidueye btw. Immunity to both moongiest and focus miss.

252 SpA Life Orb Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 157-187 (24.4 - 29.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Basically, electabuzz's only real option Is to vSwitch. This is exactly why i think lunala' s best abuser is electabuzz > pory2(p2 is MUCH easier to handle). Electabuzz x lunala still does decently agasint stall while also putting loads of pressure on other battle styles, almost forcing us to run type:null on HO and balance, Type truly does fit nicely on arguably almost any playstyle thanks to its above average bulk. Speaking of type:null....

This is probably why type:null may appear "broken" or "unhealthy" or w/e, because it's used to mainly counter lunala and help checks majority of the meta, but unlike gligar, you're not forced to run Super-Effective coverage just to be threaten towards it. Also, unlike gligar, type:null RELIES on the poke it's evolving into(cause ya know, type's movepool is pretty garbage besides literally U-Turn lol) which sorta limits its capabilities, and what's making it extremely predictable majority of the time. Honestly imo, type:null is better/best used for defensive purposes anyways, Offensively, it's a liability lol. Anyone with a real team will NEVER have issues with type:null offensively, it's not bad, but it's FAR from good. Same can be said even if it's defensive. As I already stated, you're not forced to run SE coverage to beat type:null. There's a lot of Raw Attackers /Sweeper that actually uses type:null as set-up fodder or used it as an opportunity to start breaking holes in your team(Depending on your team, of course). This is all because it's extremely predictable and can easily be exploited. It relies too much on the poke it is using, which imo, doesn't seem "broken" or even "ban worthy". It just does it job extremely well. Which is to pivot.

Solgaleo, let me put it like this. Stall does not have an answer for solga whatsoever. Even bulky water types with unaware struggle agasint it. Solgaleo by itself is invalidating stall, it's a wallbreaker and sweeper, and a speedy glass cannon all in one (same as lunala). The difference is, nothing is immune to Sunsteel Strike, now imagine adding coverage along with it, now you have one huge problem on your hands. Not to mention, stall still have Five other pokemons to worry about! solga also add too much pressure against balance too, as I find myself somewhat forced to run a dedicated revenge killer just to not be swept by it. Lunala also has this affect on teambuilding, it's just difficult to tell who does it better. And don't forget, you can use both of them on the same team causing unnecessary pressure.

Edit: let me expand a little about my point on type:null's situation. Offensively, sure it can run Dragalge w/adapt boomburst+Draco, or Swello w/scrappy boomburst. Or possibly even espeon? Etc. Type:null's movepool just isn't good enough(offensively) to be "omg this thing is incredibly versatile and unpredictable"cause that's not the case at all, did you forget you're still limited to 2 moves to select from whomever it evolves into, which causes a lot of unnecessary 4mss. U-Turn is 95% of the time the third moveslot. If not, then what's left for its fourth/third slot now? Picking from its movepool alone. Substitute? Crush claw(lol)? unstab Shadow ball? Iron head? T-Wave? Majority of the time, you're better off using something defensive opposing to trying to go "unpredictable" when in reality, your moveset can still be predicted 90% of the time. :/ it relies too much on the poke it is using.
 
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#25
Delcatty (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD or 252HP / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Bold Nature / Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Nasty Plot / Cosmic Power
- Baton Pass
- Mean Look
Misdreavus ===> Delcatty: Stats:80/80/80/105/105/125 Abilities:Cute Charm/Normalize/Wonder Skin Type:Ghost Weight: 22.6 kg (40 BP)

This is either a really effective gimmick, or a legit set-up, dunno and don't care because it works! Basically, you come in on something you force out, during that same turn(depending who the poke is) you use mean look then follow up with skill swap and watch them either RQ or get swept(sometimes). Seems like an underrated and fun bp set that's been around since gen 6 iirc
 
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