Metagame Cross Evolution

this meta was not prepared for lcotm. you can force a crash before turn 1, and you can't forfeit from in the battle. leppa berry harvest stall isn't banned. you can have stats underflow, because stat boosts and drops stack on switchin instead of the beginning of the game, so accelgor magikarp is a special wall. but also they never overflow. this means, presumably, the underflow goes not to calculating base 255, but to the maximum the simulator can handle. this meta was not prepared for any time on the main server, at all. i was excited for this meta, and there is no way in hell that i'm going to be playing it unless these are fixed immediately. i am disappointed in the coders and the people who chose this meta with (evidently) almost zero playtesting.
It's especially odd because I remember the coding working fine on ROM the last time I played Cross Evo there, I wonder why it's working there but not here

MaximeLopunny mentioned that the same glitch happens on DragonHeaven, perhaps there are differences in the code between ROM and DragonHeaven/main and that's why this is happening? It's very possible that I'm wrong though, I don't know where to look for the code or what to look for in it
 

EchoGaia

formerly MaximeLopunny
It's especially odd because I remember the coding working fine on ROM the last time I played Cross Evo there, I wonder why it's working there but not here

MaximeLopunny mentioned that the same glitch happens on DragonHeaven, perhaps there are differences in the code between ROM and DragonHeaven/main and that's why this is happening? It's very possible that I'm wrong though, I don't know where to look for the code or what to look for in it
Well for that, i have to ask Spandan, he is the one that coded CrossEvolution on Dragon Heaven, he might know what's wrong.
 
this meta was not prepared for lcotm. you can force a crash before turn 1, and you can't forfeit from in the battle. leppa berry harvest stall isn't banned. you can have stats underflow, because stat boosts and drops stack on switchin instead of the beginning of the game, so accelgor magikarp is a special wall. but also they never overflow. this means, presumably, the underflow goes not to calculating base 255, but to the maximum the simulator can handle. this meta was not prepared for any time on the main server, at all. i was excited for this meta, and there is no way in hell that i'm going to be playing it unless these are fixed immediately. i am disappointed in the coders and the people who chose this meta with (evidently) almost zero playtesting.
The code on ROM is perfectly fine and has none of the bugs you mentioned. Cross Evolution was, and it is, ready. Where did that bugged code implemented on main come from, I don't know.

EDIT: What I mean is, there is a working code for it, it just has to be implemented on main. I don't know why was a bugged code implemented nor where did it come from but it needs to be fixed ASAP.

EDIT 2: According to the OM Room in PS!, Arceus and stat bug should be fixed. Still, something (not Arceus) is still crashing some battles before Team Preview.
 
Last edited:
Alright, the teambuilder for Cross Evolution is also a little bugged. It says that Grubbin (Golisopod) cannot learn Liquidation or Sucker Punch, and that Braixen (Gardevoir) cannot learn Moonblast. There's probably more examples like this, so make sure that we have the intended behavior going for all possible evolutions, okay?

Never mind, teambuilder works as intended.
 
Last edited:
Alright, the teambuilder for Cross Evolution is also a little bugged. It says that Grubbin (Golisopod) cannot learn Liquidation or Sucker Punch, and that Braixen (Gardevoir) cannot learn Moonblast. There's probably more examples like this, so make sure that we have the intended behavior going for all possible evolutions, okay?
you need to give the nickname of the evolved thing, to the evolving thing, and not vice versa. are you sure you've been doing that?
 
Alright, the teambuilder for Cross Evolution is also a little bugged. It says that Grubbin (Golisopod) cannot learn Liquidation or Sucker Punch, and that Braixen (Gardevoir) cannot learn Moonblast. There's probably more examples like this, so make sure that we have the intended behavior going for all possible evolutions, okay?
you need to give the nickname of the evolved thing, to the evolving thing, and not vice versa. are you sure you've been doing that?
Also check that you did not take more than 2 moves from the Pokémon you're cross-evolving into. In such case, the 3 moves are shown as illegal, when actually removing one makes the other two legal.
 
I know there are already quite a few spreadsheets for this metagame, but as far as I can tell none are complete and also updated to gen 7. So here's another spreadsheet.
Features:
  • All possible pokemon for cross evolution (including banned mons and illegal forms) up through gen 7
  • Separate sheets for different evolution stages
  • Sort-able by stat values
  • Stat and typing deltas
  • Color-coded percentiles
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok wanted to share some opinions on Gligar after playing numerous games with and without it in the metagame.

I just wanted to preface this argument by saying that yes of course I believe Gligar centralizes the metagame around it, often times being a no-brain addition to any team just due to how much utility it offers in one slot. However, I do not find this centralization to be detrimental to the metagame overall, and I actually believe its inclusion helps stabilize the metagame even more thanks to its polarization.

Defensive Sets

Defensive Gligar is simply amazing, mainly due to the lack of weaknesses it pertains ontop of the great stats it receives when crossed with donors such as Gyarados and Alolan Persian and great utility moves at its natural disposal such as Stealth Rocks, Defog, and U-turn. Meaning that Gligar can blanket check the majority of physical attackers in the meta. However, Gligar is still breakable. A 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks and another weakness to common Water-type attacks means that certain physical attackers such as Magmar, Klang, and Rhydon are still able to lure and severely weaken or even OHKO Gligar with their coverage moves, coupled with its average special defense stat which can be exploited by powerful special wallbreakers such as Electabuzz, Haunter, and Porygon2. Status moves and Taunt can also cripple Gligar's sustainability as a wall as well, disallowing it from being effective as it could be. Amazing sets that are definitely splashable, but not impossible to properly break through.

Offensive Sets

A bit more controversial to discuss, offensive Gligar sets are probably the single most threatening offensive presence on the meta currently. Gligar x Gyarados and Gligar x Barbaracle can sweep unprepared teams if properly played correctly. However, viable checks are not hard to get by tbh. Just by looking at the VR, Type:Null, Doublade, certain Electabuzz, variants, Magneton, and Lairon are all great additions that can be added to a majority of teams and are all able to check offensive Gligar sets pretty consistently. Gligar just struggles to break them unless it forgoes one of its STAB options to try and break through the aforementioned threats with specific coverage moves. Arguments can be made about Gligar's presence necessitating one of these checks on every team, but firstly its not like any of these mons solely provide the utility in checking Gligar as all of them also serve different purposes as well. Secondly, its only normal for a top tier mon needing to be prepared for on any team, as thats just a natural occurence in every metagame, and I don't believe Gliagr should be held as an exception to this.

TL:DR
- Defensive sets are amazing but breakable
- Offensive sets are scary but possess a great amount of viable checks that push it from being overbearing
- Gligar's presence benefits the meta more then hinders it (imo), and I would like to ask exactly how its centralization negatively affects the meta?

Do Not Ban
 
Last edited:

EchoGaia

formerly MaximeLopunny
Ok wanted to share some opinions on Gligar after playing numerous games with and without it in the metagame.

I just wanted to preface this argument by saying that yes of course I believe Gligar centralizes the metagame around it, often times being a no-brain addition to any team just due to how much utility it offers in one slot. However, I do not find this centralization to be detrimental to the metagame overall, and I actually believe its inclusion helps stabilize the metagame even more thanks to its polarization.

Defensive Sets

Defensive Gligar is simply amazing, mainly due to the lack of weaknesses it pertains ontop of the great stats it receives when crossed with donors such as Gyarados and Alolan Persian and great utility moves at its natural disposal such as Stealth Rocks, Defog, and U-turn. Meaning that Gligar can blanket check the majority of physical attackers in the meta. However, Gligar is still breakable. A 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks and another weakness to common Water-type attacks means that certain physical attackers such as Magmar, Klang, and Rhydon are still able to lure and severely weaken or even OHKO Gligar with their coverage moves, coupled with its average special defense stat which can be exploited by powerful special wallbreakers such as Electabuzz, Haunter, and Porygon2. Status moves and Taunt can also cripple Gligar's sustainability as a wall as well, disallowing it from being effective as it could be. Amazing sets that are definitely splashable, but not impossible to properly break through.

Offensive Sets

A bit more controversial to discuss, offensive Gligar sets are probably the single most threatening offensive presence on the meta currently. Gligar x Gyarados and Gligar x Barbaracle can sweep unprepared teams if properly played correctly. However, viable checks are not hard to get by tbh. Just by looking at the VR, Type:Null, Doublade, certain Electabuzz, variants, Magneton, and Lairon are all great additions that can be added to a majority of teams and are all able to check offensive Gligar sets pretty consistently. Gligar just struggles to break them unless it forgoes one of its STAB options to try and break through the aforementioned threats with specific coverage moves. Arguments can be made about Gligar's presence necessitating one of these checks on every team, but firstly its not like any of these mons solely provide the utility in checking Gligar as all of them also serve different purposes as well. Secondly, its only normal for a top tier mon needing to be prepared for on any team, as thats just a natural occurence in every metagame, and I don't believe Gliagr should be held as an exception to this.

TL:DR
- Defensive sets are amazing but breakable
- Offensive sets are scary but possess a great amount of viable checks that push it from being overbearing
- Gligar's presence benefits the meta more then hinders it (imo), and I would like to ask exactly how its centralization negatively affects the meta?

Do Not Ban
I just totally agree with that analysis. Nothing to add you said everything.
 
This is not regarding the current suspect discussion, but Gligar can run a pretty disgusting set:

Dugtrio (Gligar) @ Leftovers
90/120/130/50/90/110
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 64 SpD / 176 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Toxic
- Taunt/Substitute
- Earthquake

One of the cruelest anti-stall options possible. So long as the target isn't airborne, Gligar can trap anything that comes in and deteriorate them into submission while it continuously heals off the low damage output it may try to deal back. Roost and Toxic allow it to remain healthy and force damage onto the target. Taunt prevents any sort of setup on the opponent's end and forces them to attack for low damage. Substitute can be used for similar reasons and makes it even harder to kill, although it will not prevent other moves like Recover or Heal Bell from activating. Earthquake is a perfect STAB option that deals consistent damage and covers Poison and Steel types that would otherwise be immune to Toxic. Knock Off is also a perfectly viable move that removes troublesome items like Leftovers.

The EVs give Gligar 300 Speed, which is enough to take on pretty much any stall-based set that may appear. Max HP gives Gligar a solid Leftovers number to heal as much as possible. The remaining bulk is spread so that Gallade (Klang) can't 2HKO with Gear Grind without a boost, but can be altered along with its speed to any real value you wish.
 
Ban evolving into dugtrio when you can get something like this

Dugtrio (Meditite) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Acupressure
- Baton Pass
- Stealth Rock

Basically if you predict that the opponent will use a status move then you can setup and insta win
 
Ban evolving into dugtrio when you can get something like this

Dugtrio (Meditite) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Acupressure
- Baton Pass
- Stealth Rock

Basically if you predict that the opponent will use a status move then you can setup and insta win
...Except for the fact that, once a player realizes they're unable to switch, the chance of them not attacking is minimal. They also will probably struggle to death unless it is a Hazard move, and Sash users aren't exactly uncommon.

And Multiscale + Dragon Tail, should anything run Dragonite for boosts. why wouldn't you
 
Regarding the suspect, I agree with Echo in that evolving into Gyarados / Milotic is the true issue. Gligar has tons of really fun and balanced sets, and it's kinda blatant that the true issues are the insane evolutions, rather than simply the hosts that are better at abusing them.
 
...Except for the fact that, once a player realizes they're unable to switch, the chance of them not attacking is minimal. They also will probably struggle to death unless it is a Hazard move, and Sash users aren't exactly uncommon.

And Multiscale + Dragon Tail, should anything run Dragonite for boosts. why wouldn't you
That was just an example, you can do other things such as poliwag evolving into dugtrio so it could use encore, b drum, and baton pass. The reason dugtrio got banned from sketchmons was because of encore + arena trap and that becomes even stronger in this meta.
 
Breloom (Munchlax) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spore
- Body Slam
- Pursuit
- Curse
this means munchlax would have the following stats 135/175/60/60/85/40 while being max Spd it gets a very high defense by using curse and with that 135 base HP it can tank almost everything also the poison heal is there to heal the munchlax and with the spore you'll be able to setup as the opponent takes a nap and since most people switch when their pokemon are put to sleep I gave munchlax pursuit which also counters ghost types
 
Voting period for the Gligar suspect test has started. Post your vote in this thread, alongside reasoning, replays (if possible) to support your points, and your thoughts on the Gligar-less metagame.

LCotM was unexpected so I'll have extra care with uninformed posts. Anyone who has experience with & without Gligar can vote.

EDIT: Gligar will need >=60% ban votes to be banned.
 
Last edited:
Honestly I don't think Gligar itself is the main problem. It has a really good base stat and phenomenal movepool, but compared to other potential evolvers such as Type-Null, PG2, Spritzee, Doublade, Ferroseed, and Scyther, I really don't think that Gligar itself is the main issue since you could argue that the others would be equally as bad.

What Gligar can gain and use is indeed insane. Gyarados grants Gligar such an absurd stat boost to utilize the options it already has that it has become the face of Cross Evo. Chansey turns it into a pseudo-Zygod that can heal the entire team. Dugtrio (which SHOULD be quickbanned) allows it to destroy stall. Persian-Alola makes it nearly unkillable by physical attacks. Quagsire allows it to dismantle setup. Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Amoonguss allow it to pivot nearly for free and become vital utility for the team.

What's the similarity between all of these sets? Gligar isn't the main focus: The evolutions are. You could take Gligar out and replace it with any other viable Pokemon and create the same exact argument with nothing resolved in the end.

The real problem in my opinion are the available evolutions that Gligar and the others can abuse. I think what needs to happen is a recall for all available evolutions before looking at Gligar or the rest because those are generally what allow the sets to function to a greater degree than the base formes. They give more options and possibilities than the base form can ever do and are the second reason why Gligar is so abusable. Gligar can utilize the evolutions to a strong degree, but so can any other available Pokemon and only stopping Gligar will not solve the issue at hand.

Yeah. Gligar is an issue in the meta, but it's the wrong target at the wrong time.

Do not ban or at least fix the current evolutions before making the decision.
 
I think Scyther -> Dugtrio should be on the viability rankings somewhere, because it has a base speed of 130 and is the best trapper in the format. This is one set I came up with.
Dugtrio (Scyther) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Sucker Punch/Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Defog/Screech
 
I vote ban.

My reasonning:


Gligar is a really strong Pokemon in this meta and deserves a suspect. It naturally have decent stats due to the fact it did not had an evolution before G4.
Despite the fact I love to use this mon, I just realize how strong it is.

Here my favourite set:

Barbaracle (Gligar) @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off


New stats =>


At +2, he has enough Spe to sweep your opponent (he reaches 560 Spe for 780 Atk).
Moveset: STAB EQ + STAB Acro' (110 BP) with Tough Claws is just freaking scary + Knock Off for coverage - and also because it's boosted TC-. Other options are Stone Edge, Aqua Tail, Frustration, etc.

If you get phazed, well you are still able to spam STAB Acro' later since you have lost the White Herb; Yache Berry can be an option as well.

Due to the lack of a ladder, I could not really find a counter. From what I have seen against the bot, Doublade-Dragonite might be one.
 
i haven't had much time to play recently and i'm on mobile rn but i'm voting ban gligar bc fuck that mon. will elaborate later.
I vote ban.

My reasonning:


Gligar is a really strong Pokemon in this meta and deserves a suspect. It naturally have decent stats due to the fact it did not had an evolution before G4.
Despite the fact I love to use this mon, I just realize how strong it is.

Here my favourite set:

Barbaracle (Gligar) @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off


New stats =>


At +2, he has enough Spe to sweep your opponent (he reaches 560 Spe for 780 Atk).
Moveset: STAB EQ + STAB Acro' (110 BP) with Tough Claws is just freaking scary + Knock Off for coverage - and also because it's boosted TC-. Other options are Stone Edge, Aqua Tail, Frustration, etc.

If you get phazed, well you are still able to spam STAB Acro' later since you have lost the White Herb; Yache Berry can be an option as well.

Due to the lack of a ladder, I could not really find a counter. From what I have seen against the bot, Doublade-Dragonite might be one.
Please develop your reasoning further for your vote to count towards the suspect test.
I know there are already quite a few spreadsheets for this metagame, but as far as I can tell none are complete and also updated to gen 7. So here's another spreadsheet.
Features:
  • All possible pokemon for cross evolution (including banned mons and illegal forms) up through gen 7
  • Separate sheets for different evolution stages
  • Sort-able by stat values
  • Stat and typing deltas
  • Color-coded percentiles
Adding this to the OP. Thanks for contributing!
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
I vote ban.

My reasonning:


Gligar is a really strong Pokemon in this meta and deserves a suspect. It naturally have decent stats due to the fact it did not had an evolution before G4.
Despite the fact I love to use this mon, I just realize how strong it is.

Here my favourite set:

Barbaracle (Gligar) @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off


New stats =>


At +2, he has enough Spe to sweep your opponent (he reaches 560 Spe for 780 Atk).
Moveset: STAB EQ + STAB Acro' (110 BP) with Tough Claws is just freaking scary + Knock Off for coverage - and also because it's boosted TC-. Other options are Stone Edge, Aqua Tail, Frustration, etc.

If you get phazed, well you are still able to spam STAB Acro' later since you have lost the White Herb; Yache Berry can be an option as well.

Due to the lack of a ladder, I could not really find a counter. From what I have seen against the bot, Doublade-Dragonite might be one.
As I mentioned in my previous post, checks to offensive Gligar aren't too hard to come by, alongside Doublade X Dragonite, we also have Lairon X Dragonite, Magneton X Hydreigon, Electabuzz X Vivillion, Type:Null X Quagsire (or any Quagsire crossed mon for that manner), and numerous other defensive threats that can tank a hit from it and threaten to revenge kill it. Unless you have calcs proving how Gligar can break through the mons I had just mentioned previously (without making it +6 cause like obvi the opp would not allow that to happen so easily), then I really don't see the issue here.
 
I don't have enough experience actually playing to feel like I could vote, so I won't. Looking at the numbers, however I feel the issue does not lie entirely with Gligar.
I believe it lies with Gyarados and Milotic, more so Gyara.

Let's examine some numbers: 75 HP, 115 Att, 24 Def, 80 Spdef. It also gives 45 Spatt and 1 Spd. Base stats. Plus two amazing abilities in intimidate and moxie and a fairly decent movepool.
Any physical pokemon that is already decently bulky or very fast can take advantage of this to steamroll through teams.
Gligar is a very good mon but as Funbot28 mentioned it has several solid counters and checks, and ice coverage is very common. It stands to reason that perhaps people are more irritated with some of the mons it can inherit from rather than the mon itself.
 
Gligar is not egregiously broken in the terms of the offensive threats which tend to hog the suspect spotlight in main tiers. While Shell Smash (GligxBarb or sumthin like that) and DD (the infamous Gligados sets) are both very threatening and require very hard answers due to their enormous bulk, Gligar really shines in its defensive and utlity roles. This thing totally outshines PDon, something very rarely heard. Sets like GligxHariyama offer a very sturdy ground, fighting, bug, fire, etc check while also reducing Gligar's crucial 4x ice weakness. Basically, this thing never dies, threatens the possibility of being an incredibly versatile and bulky set up sweeper, provides an incredibly reliable hazard control by itself, and generally overcentralizes the metagame. When was the last time you saw a team, regardless of playstyle, which didn't/shouldn/t have included a Gligar?

As much as i love him, ban yung gliggy.