Metagame Cross Evolution

As I mentioned in my previous post, checks to offensive Gligar aren't too hard to come by, alongside Doublade X Dragonite, we also have Lairon X Dragonite, Magneton X Hydreigon, Electabuzz X Vivillion, Type:Null X Quagsire (or any Quagsire crossed mon for that manner), and numerous other defensive threats that can tank a hit from it and threaten to revenge kill it. Unless you have calcs proving how Gligar can break through the mons I had just mentioned previously (without making it +6 cause like obvi the opp would not allow that to happen so easily), then I really don't see the issue here.

what? I mean those mons checks its defensive sets nicely yes, but you Can not say the same for its offensive set! Taunt or substitute easily allows glidos to bypass a good portion of its checks. Doublade / Lairon are usually used as bait iirc(Dtail can't break sub/Taunt blocks Roar), and where are these "Unaware" users you speak of? I'm assuming no one is using glidos correctly when taunt shuts down any unaware user, usually forcing the said mon to switch out(type can't do damn thing, it HAS to use uturn). I mean, it can pretty much stallbreak is what I'm saying.


I already mentioned Electabuzz x vivillon is a bit of a soft check(I think), especially if it doesn't have a boost under its belt(and if gligar is behind a sub) or sleep powder if it wasn't used on another pokemon(or if gligar is not running sub), but even at +1 w/Lo HP ice it still doesn't reliably kill it! Whilst acro always Ohko back. Magneton is the best offensive answer(assuming it still has the Steel typing), you got me there lol but it absolutely needs HP ice

I'm in agreement with some of your points, as far as gligar having other viable sets that are more easier to check(sorta, I think hariyama will just take its place) and possibly getting rid of Gyarados instead. But man, that's just it. Why ban Gyarados? "bruh, look at its stats boost" ok? As mention already, Gyarados doesn't make anything else nearly as centralizing as it does with gligar. because Add in the fact, Gyarados doesn't give a good reliable STAB flying move unless you're into Z-Bounce I guess. Doesn't give recovery and adds an typing that's not necessarily "useful" depending on what you're running(even then, it doesn't "break" the said mon). Most importantly, you're only left with one measly point in speed! Effectively making a lot of other Gyarados abusers easier to check(defensively and offensively) since no one other than Murkrow, Archen, or anything else that's not above 70 in Speed(imo) can not abuse Dragon dance or taunt / substitute for that matter since usually once again, Nothing else is bulky enough to even run the same offensive sets and ev spread as Glidos! Add in ANOTHER fact, that gligar can afford to run Moxie since its bulk is literally unrivaled by any other Gyarados user + it's typing. This is kinda similar to beat up, like, sneasel was the only True abuse. But in this situation(imho), Gyarados' is only broken on GLIGAR!

Lol, I'm honestly still thinking it through, this isn't me voting or anything YET! just wanted to clear up some stuff about your arguments. Great discussion though from everyone!
 
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what? I mean those mons checks its defensive sets nicely yes, but you Can not say the same for its offensive set! Taunt or substitute easily allows glidos to bypass a good portion of its checks. Doublade / Lairon are usually used as bait iirc(Dtail can't break sub/Taunt blocks Roar), and where are these "Unaware" users you speak of? I'm assuming no one is using glidos correctly when taunt shuts down any unaware user, usually forcing the said mon to switch out(type can't do damn thing, it HAS to use uturn). I mean, it can pretty much stallbreak is what I'm saying.
Some bulky Pokémon (including Type:Null x Quagsire, and some Milotic cross-evolutions) can break Gligar, even after Taunt, if they run Ice Beam. This is quite limiting to most Milotic cross-evolutions, but not Type:Null (or not to the same extent) since it has a horrible movepool anyway. However, if Gligar is boosted, they'll take serious damage in doing so, but a lot of this Pokémon are bulky enough to take at least 2 hits somewhat comfortably from Gligar.
One could consider running Ice Beam on defensive Pokémon a proof of over-centralization, though.
 
Some bulky Pokémon (including Type:Null x Quagsire, and some Milotic cross-evolutions) can break Gligar, even after Taunt, if they run Ice Beam. This is quite limiting to most Milotic cross-evolutions, but not Type:Null (or not to the same extent) since it has a horrible movepool anyway. However, if Gligar is boosted, they'll take serious damage in doing so, but a lot of this Pokémon are bulky enough to take at least 2 hits somewhat comfortably from Gligar.
One could consider running Ice Beam on defensive Pokémon a proof of over-centralization, though.

Hmm, I suppose that's true. But yes, one could argue that Glidos forces such said mon to use ice coverage rather than utility moves. I don't think any other gyarados user requires that? Maybe Hippopotas?
 
Hmm, I suppose that's true. But yes, one could argue that Glidos forces such said mon to use ice coverage rather than utility moves. I don't think any other gyarados user requires that? Maybe Hippopotas?
Not Hippopotas since it can't learn Taunt. Taunt is the main reason why one would run Ice Beam on certain defensive Pokémon to 2HKO Gligar, as without Taunt they could simply proceed to phaze it or Toxic, erasing its boosts or crippling it for the rest of the match.
 
Not Hippopotas since it can't learn Taunt. Taunt is the main reason why one would run Ice Beam on certain defensive Pokémon to 2HKO Gligar, as without Taunt they could simply proceed to phaze it or Toxic, erasing its boosts or crippling it for the rest of the match.


It learns taunt from Gyarados no? but hippo is far too slow anyways. And you brought up other good points too
 
So I've been finding that good stall is rather unprepared for, in addition to being rather overpowered. Because I haven't really played enough of the meta to feel comfortable calling for any bans This proved to be a lie. I thought I'd post instead some sets I came up with for dealing with stall.

Dugtrio (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Shadow Ball
- Rest / Pain Split

This Misdreavus set traps and kills any non-flying, non-ghost, non-pivoting set that cant just ko you back... which you will mostly find on stall. It can often trap Quagsire evolutions not named Type: Null (cuz U-turn).

In case it wasn't obvious the idea is switch in safely, trapping them, then Perish Song, Protect, Shadow Ball / Rest / Pain Split, Switch and they die. I prefer Rest over Pain Split because you're usually looking to kill turns, you don't like statuses like Toxic, it's more reliable, and I run it with a cleric. Lefties v Chesto is up to whether you want passive recovery or immediate waking up, I'm not sure which is better.



Excadrill (Scyther) @ Leftovers / Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Earthquake / Brick Break
- Roost / Brick Break / X-Scissor / other things idk

The idea here is to Swords Dance up and then ignore Unaware with Mold Breaker and go to town with Iron Head.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Scyther (Excadrill) Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null (Quagsire): 231-274 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Note that you need the Life Orb for the 2hko at +2. If you run Brick Break or it's not physically defensive you don't need that, and Lefties or Lum Berry can help you be more reliable and not die / not be crippled.



Noivern (Type: Null) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Flamethrower

This is wallbreaker Type: Null. It gets Boomburst. Swellow gives Scrappyburst and Heat Wave instead of Flamethrower, but has worse stats (115/125/125/140/115/99 instead of 140/135/140/147/135/127. That's a noticeable speed and bulk difference.)

Honestly Type: Null can run so many sets and is absolutely the most horrendously broken thing in cross-evolution right now, above and beyond Crossevolving into Milotic, above Gligar, above Scyther. I never have problems with Gligar. Most physical walls can deal with it either through Unaware or phazing or Toxic. Gligar runs a couple very similar sets (which it runs well), but Type: Null can run offensive; physically or specially, defensive (where its bulk is super high on both sides with basically every relevant evolution). It's main drawbacks are its typing and movepool but for its strongest sets that isn't even a problem, as, similarly to Chansey in standard, it has enough bulk to stomach hits without resists and so it primarily appreciates the lack of weaknesses. As for movepool it gets what it needs from what it wants to evolve into, pretty much without exception. Quagsire, Milotic, Chansey, Toxapex, etc. all give it recovery, Return / Frustration works for STAB, it pivots for U-Turn making Dugtrio trapping antics impossible, and it then has one free slot to do whatever. It can also run Toxic, something it learns naturally, and for Chansey Protect is very useful. Basically Type: Null's stats are too damn high for this meta.


I'm voting Do Not Ban on Gligar. Not because it's not good (it is), and not even because it isn't the most broken thing as per my Type: Null rant above. It's because dealing with Gligar has not been difficult for me. While it is somewhat versatile, being able to play more or less bulky, it is basically either defensive, and therefore not an immediate threat, or offensive, and thus fairly predictable. With the ridiculous amount of set up spam in this meta defensive Gligar often fins itself taken out fairly easily unless Quaggied, and even then there are a lot of water type sweepers out there, thanks to the distribution of shell smash and the fossils decent base stats. Offensive Gligar (especially bulky offensive) is to my mind the better set, and the best pro-ban argument imo is that bulky dd Gligar can push through balance too easily. However a bunch of mons can either cripple it or kill it or just wall it. Here's a list, although a number of them might have been said already and I won't pretend its exhaustive.

Almost Anything ==> Quagsire (this imo is grounds to not ban by itself)
Hippopotas ==> Hitmontop (Intimidate, takes hits easily, Whirlwinds it out, but can't do much other than Toxic it back. Other Hippos probably work just as well.)
Doublade ==> Dragonite (Haven't used this, but everyone else has said it and its bulky af and resists stabs sooo)
Carvanha ==> Araquanid (Needs some chip damage but can revenge, 252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Carvanha Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 340-408 (80.7 - 96.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Amaura ==> Jolteon (Scarf can revenge kill at +1 if 252 speed, or switch in on an unboosted one if it has an Air Balloon.)
Random Scalds or ice coverage (no this isn't my main argument please don't cherrypick this and say I'm saying "oh just slap ice on something and you'll be fine." That's not even true lol. Being weak to Scald does it no favors and a burnt Gligar is a useless Gligar tbh.)
Phazing (preferably untauntable, ie DTail or Circle Throw)

I'm lazy so that's all you're getting. I tried to include things that would work on different team styles.

Some of these don't work if it carries specific moves, such as Hippopotas getting screwed over by Taunt (as said above). However this gets into 4mss territory, as if Gligar has Taunt it doesn't have one of Roost (necessary imo), set-up (why are you running Taunt then) or one of its stab, probably Earthquake because Acrobatics has no immunities while Earthquake has a common one. This makes Gligar much easier to deal with as a whole. Honestly if it could run 5 moves I might change my mind, but it can't.

that's all for now have fun kids #givelcotmaladderagain

EDIT: Just realized this is long af. Gonna give a tl;dr <This is kinda buried, tl;dr is here
-Stall very good rn see sets for some things that can help against it.
-Type: Null stats too gud, plz ban
-Don't ban Gligar, it's good, but Offense and Stall can both deal with it without huge effort and Balance has some tools for it.
  • more specifically Gligar's best set, it seems to me, is cross-evolving into gyarados and doing a bulky dragon dance thing, which every stall team has an answer for in Quagsire evos, and Hyper Offense can smack that thing hard.
  • Weak to Scald and Ice is crippling. Burns kill it.
EDIT2: If a proban person could discuss taunt + sd sets in response to this I would be grateful, I haven't seen them, and they seem like the sets that could potentially give stall the most trouble.

Heh, if you saw my post earlier you would know, acrobatics will ALWAYS be its only attacking option and for obvious reasons. Roost/DD/Taunt OR Substitute/Acrobatics. Simple as that. And sd + Taunt doesn't threaten HO like Dragon dance does. Just a little nitpick.
I didn't think Swords Dance would threaten HO, just make it more effective at being able to push past stall.

If Acrobatics is ALWAYS its only attack then I'm even more inclined to DNB, as physically defensive rocks / steels are a dime a dozen. However your mention of Sub does give me pause (I'm sorry if you mentioned it above I was too lazy to dig through everything and merely skimmed) because it makes it more difficult to deal with through status, but honestly it exacerbates the 4mss problem anymore, because as I see it the set right now is Acrobatics / Dragon Dance or (maybe) Swords Dance / Roost / Taunt OR Earthquake OR Substitute. Without every one of those last 3 moves it will not be able to sweep at least some of the time, and its much easier to prepare for a Gligar that carries only one of those than one that has all three. For instance, carrying an Acrobatics resist that can offensively pressure Gligar (something that doesn't care about Taunt or Sub) AND a generic physically bulky wall not weak to either STAB isn't hard for sets with EQ, and I would argue that all stall should at least have the second. And of course there are single mons that deal with everything.

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Random set dump. Some of these are incredibly standard and I wanted it to be that way. Also note that for the most case evs are non-optimized. Very much a wip, only got one mon done tonight. I'll check some other time to make sure I'm not repeating stuff.
-"I swear I have a niche over Mega Gengar!"

Dugtrio (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Shadow Ball
- Rest / Pain Split / Substitute

/

stronger and better typing
Gallade (Rhydon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance / Knock Off
- Rock Polish / Knock Off
harder to revenge
Tsareena (Rhydon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish

Dragonite (Rhydon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Defog

Beedrill (Rhydon) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drill Run
- Stone Edge
- Focus Energy
- Ice Punch / Rock Polish


Excadrill (Scyther) @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Earthquake / Rapid Spin
- Roost

Steelix (Scyther) @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Roost
- Swords Dance / Curse
- Earthquake / Dragon Tail / Knock Off

Breloom (Scyther) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mach Punch / Force Palm
- Swords Dance
- Spore / Rock Tomb
- Knock Off / Bug Bite

Gallade (Scyther) @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab / Substitute / Bug Bite / Roost

haha just kidding


Quagsire (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Return
- U-turn / Roar
- Toxic / Scald / Roar

Milotic (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Return
- Dragon Tail / Shadow Claw
- Recover

Milotic (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Tri Attack
- Scald / Dragon Tail / U-Turn
- Recover / Rest
- Dragon Tail / Roar / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Scald / Sleep Talk

Noivern (Type: Null) @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / [Ground]

Swellow (Type: Null) @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Linoone (Type: Null) @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Belly Drum
- Shadow Claw
- Iron Head

Arcanine (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw / Pursuit
- Morning Sun / Close Combat / Will-O-Wisp

Barbaracle (Type: Null) @ White Herb / Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Return / Double-Edge
- Cross Chop
- Shadow Claw


Toxapex (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roar / Haze
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes
- Recover

Araquanid (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Liquidation

Araquanid (Wailmer) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Grass]
 
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So I've been finding that good stall is rather unprepared for, in addition to being rather overpowered. Because I haven't really played enough of the meta to feel comfortable calling for any bans This proved to be a lie. I thought I'd post instead some sets I came up with for dealing with stall.

Dugtrio (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Shadow Ball
- Rest / Pain Split

This Misdreavus set traps and kills any non-flying, non-ghost, non-pivoting set that cant just ko you back... which you will mostly find on stall. It can often trap Quagsire evolutions not named Type: Null (cuz U-turn).

In case it wasn't obvious the idea is switch in safely, trapping them, then Perish Song, Protect, Shadow Ball / Rest / Pain Split, Switch and they die. I prefer Rest over Pain Split because you're usually looking to kill turns, you don't like statuses like Toxic, it's more reliable, and I run it with a cleric. Lefties v Chesto is up to whether you want passive recovery or immediate waking up, I'm not sure which is better.


Excadrill (Scyther) @ Leftovers / Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Earthquake / Brick Break
- Roost / Brick Break / X-Scissor / other things idk

The idea here is to Swords Dance up and then ignore Unaware with Mold Breaker and go to town with Iron Head.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Scyther (Excadrill) Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null (Quagsire): 231-274 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Note that you need the Life Orb for the 2hko at +2. If you run Brick Break or it's not physically defensive you don't need that, and Lefties or Lum Berry can help you be more reliable and not die / not be crippled.


Noivern (Type: Null) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Flamethrower

This is wallbreaker Type: Null. It gets Boomburst. Swellow gives Scrappyburst and Heat Wave instead of Flamethrower, but has worse stats (115/125/125/140/115/99 instead of 140/135/140/147/135/127. That's a noticeable speed and bulk difference.)

Honestly Type: Null can run so many sets and is absolutely the most horrendously broken thing in cross-evolution right now, above and beyond Crossevolving into Milotic, above Gligar, above Scyther. I never have problems with Gligar. Most physical walls can deal with it either through Unaware or phazing or Toxic. Gligar runs a couple very similar sets (which it runs well), but Type: Null can run offensive; physically or specially, defensive (where its bulk is super high on both sides with basically every relevant evolution). It's main drawbacks are its typing and movepool but for its strongest sets that isn't even a problem, as, similarly to Chansey in standard, it has enough bulk to stomach hits without resists and so it primarily appreciates the lack of weaknesses. As for movepool it gets what it needs from what it wants to evolve into, pretty much without exception. Quagsire, Milotic, Chansey, Toxapex, etc. all give it recovery, Return / Frustration works for STAB, it pivots for U-Turn making Dugtrio trapping antics impossible, and it then has one free slot to do whatever. It can also run Toxic, something it learns naturally, and for Chansey Protect is very useful. Basically Type: Null's stats are too damn high for this meta.


I'm voting Do Not Ban on Gligar. Not because it's not good (it is), and not even because it isn't the most broken thing as per my Type: Null rant above. It's because dealing with Gligar has not been difficult for me. While it is somewhat versatile, being able to play more or less bulky, it is basically either defensive, and therefore not an immediate threat, or offensive, and thus fairly predictable. With the ridiculous amount of set up spam in this meta defensive Gligar often fins itself taken out fairly easily unless Quaggied, and even then there are a lot of water type sweepers out there, thanks to the distribution of shell smash and the fossils decent base stats. Offensive Gligar (especially bulky offensive) is to my mind the better set, and the best pro-ban argument imo is that bulky dd Gligar can push through balance too easily. However a bunch of mons can either cripple it or kill it or just wall it. Here's a list, although a number of them might have been said already and I won't pretend its exhaustive.

Almost Anything ==> Quagsire (this imo is grounds to not ban by itself)
Hippopotas ==> Hitmontop (Intimidate, takes hits easily, Whirlwinds it out, but can't do much other than Toxic it back. Other Hippos probably work just as well.)
Doublade ==> Dragonite (Haven't used this, but everyone else has said it and its bulky af and resists stabs sooo)
Carvanha ==> Araquanid (Needs some chip damage but can revenge, 252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Carvanha Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 340-408 (80.7 - 96.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Amaura ==> Jolteon (Scarf can revenge kill at +1 if 252 speed, or switch in on an unboosted one if it has an Air Balloon.)
Random Scalds or ice coverage (no this isn't my main argument please don't cherrypick this and say I'm saying "oh just slap ice on something and you'll be fine." That's not even true lol. Being weak to Scald does it no favors and a burnt Gligar is a useless Gligar tbh.)
Phazing (preferably untauntable, ie DTail or Circle Throw)

I'm lazy so that's all you're getting. I tried to include things that would work on different team styles.

Some of these don't work if it carries specific moves, such as Hippopotas getting screwed over by Taunt (as said above). However this gets into 4mss territory, as if Gligar has Taunt it doesn't have one of Roost (necessary imo), set-up (why are you running Taunt then) or one of its stab, probably Earthquake because Acrobatics has no immunities while Earthquake has a common one. This makes Gligar much easier to deal with as a whole. Honestly if it could run 5 moves I might change my mind, but it can't.

that's all for now have fun kids #givelcotmaladderagain

EDIT: Just realized this is long af. Gonna give a tl;dr
-Stall very good rn see sets for some things that can help against it.
-Type: Null stats too gud, plz ban
-Don't ban Gligar, it's good, but Offense and Stall can both deal with it without huge effort and Balance has some tools for it.
  • more specifically Gligar's best set, it seems to me, is cross-evolving into gyarados and doing a bulky dragon dance thing, which every stall team has an answer for in Quagsire evos, and Hyper Offense can smack that thing hard.
  • Weak to Scald and Ice is crippling. Burns kill it.
EDIT2: If a proban person could discuss taunt + sd sets in response to this I would be grateful, I haven't seen them, and they seem like the sets that could potentially give stall the most trouble.


Heh, if you saw my post earlier you would know, acrobatics will ALWAYS be its only attacking option and for obvious reasons. Roost/DD/Taunt OR Substitute/Acrobatics. Simple as that. And sd + Taunt doesn't threaten HO like Dragon dance does. Just a little nitpick.
 
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So I've been finding that good stall is rather unprepared for, in addition to being rather overpowered. Because I haven't really played enough of the meta to feel comfortable calling for any bans This proved to be a lie. I thought I'd post instead some sets I came up with for dealing with stall.

Dugtrio (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Perish Song
- Shadow Ball
- Rest / Pain Split

This Misdreavus set traps and kills any non-flying, non-ghost, non-pivoting set that cant just ko you back... which you will mostly find on stall. It can often trap Quagsire evolutions not named Type: Null (cuz U-turn).

In case it wasn't obvious the idea is switch in safely, trapping them, then Perish Song, Protect, Shadow Ball / Rest / Pain Split, Switch and they die. I prefer Rest over Pain Split because you're usually looking to kill turns, you don't like statuses like Toxic, it's more reliable, and I run it with a cleric. Lefties v Chesto is up to whether you want passive recovery or immediate waking up, I'm not sure which is better.



Excadrill (Scyther) @ Leftovers / Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Earthquake / Brick Break
- Roost / Brick Break / X-Scissor / other things idk

The idea here is to Swords Dance up and then ignore Unaware with Mold Breaker and go to town with Iron Head.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Scyther (Excadrill) Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null (Quagsire): 231-274 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Note that you need the Life Orb for the 2hko at +2. If you run Brick Break or it's not physically defensive you don't need that, and Lefties or Lum Berry can help you be more reliable and not die / not be crippled.



Noivern (Type: Null) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Flamethrower

This is wallbreaker Type: Null. It gets Boomburst. Swellow gives Scrappyburst and Heat Wave instead of Flamethrower, but has worse stats (115/125/125/140/115/99 instead of 140/135/140/147/135/127. That's a noticeable speed and bulk difference.)

Honestly Type: Null can run so many sets and is absolutely the most horrendously broken thing in cross-evolution right now, above and beyond Crossevolving into Milotic, above Gligar, above Scyther. I never have problems with Gligar. Most physical walls can deal with it either through Unaware or phazing or Toxic. Gligar runs a couple very similar sets (which it runs well), but Type: Null can run offensive; physically or specially, defensive (where its bulk is super high on both sides with basically every relevant evolution). It's main drawbacks are its typing and movepool but for its strongest sets that isn't even a problem, as, similarly to Chansey in standard, it has enough bulk to stomach hits without resists and so it primarily appreciates the lack of weaknesses. As for movepool it gets what it needs from what it wants to evolve into, pretty much without exception. Quagsire, Milotic, Chansey, Toxapex, etc. all give it recovery, Return / Frustration works for STAB, it pivots for U-Turn making Dugtrio trapping antics impossible, and it then has one free slot to do whatever. It can also run Toxic, something it learns naturally, and for Chansey Protect is very useful. Basically Type: Null's stats are too damn high for this meta.


I'm voting Do Not Ban on Gligar. Not because it's not good (it is), and not even because it isn't the most broken thing as per my Type: Null rant above. It's because dealing with Gligar has not been difficult for me. While it is somewhat versatile, being able to play more or less bulky, it is basically either defensive, and therefore not an immediate threat, or offensive, and thus fairly predictable. With the ridiculous amount of set up spam in this meta defensive Gligar often fins itself taken out fairly easily unless Quaggied, and even then there are a lot of water type sweepers out there, thanks to the distribution of shell smash and the fossils decent base stats. Offensive Gligar (especially bulky offensive) is to my mind the better set, and the best pro-ban argument imo is that bulky dd Gligar can push through balance too easily. However a bunch of mons can either cripple it or kill it or just wall it. Here's a list, although a number of them might have been said already and I won't pretend its exhaustive.

Almost Anything ==> Quagsire (this imo is grounds to not ban by itself)
Hippopotas ==> Hitmontop (Intimidate, takes hits easily, Whirlwinds it out, but can't do much other than Toxic it back. Other Hippos probably work just as well.)
Doublade ==> Dragonite (Haven't used this, but everyone else has said it and its bulky af and resists stabs sooo)
Carvanha ==> Araquanid (Needs some chip damage but can revenge, 252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Carvanha Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 340-408 (80.7 - 96.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Amaura ==> Jolteon (Scarf can revenge kill at +1 if 252 speed, or switch in on an unboosted one if it has an Air Balloon.)
Random Scalds or ice coverage (no this isn't my main argument please don't cherrypick this and say I'm saying "oh just slap ice on something and you'll be fine." That's not even true lol. Being weak to Scald does it no favors and a burnt Gligar is a useless Gligar tbh.)
Phazing (preferably untauntable, ie DTail or Circle Throw)

I'm lazy so that's all you're getting. I tried to include things that would work on different team styles.

Some of these don't work if it carries specific moves, such as Hippopotas getting screwed over by Taunt (as said above). However this gets into 4mss territory, as if Gligar has Taunt it doesn't have one of Roost (necessary imo), set-up (why are you running Taunt then) or one of its stab, probably Earthquake because Acrobatics has no immunities while Earthquake has a common one. This makes Gligar much easier to deal with as a whole. Honestly if it could run 5 moves I might change my mind, but it can't.

that's all for now have fun kids #givelcotmaladderagain

EDIT: Just realized this is long af. Gonna give a tl;dr <This is kinda buried, tl;dr is here
-Stall very good rn see sets for some things that can help against it.
-Type: Null stats too gud, plz ban
-Don't ban Gligar, it's good, but Offense and Stall can both deal with it without huge effort and Balance has some tools for it.
  • more specifically Gligar's best set, it seems to me, is cross-evolving into gyarados and doing a bulky dragon dance thing, which every stall team has an answer for in Quagsire evos, and Hyper Offense can smack that thing hard.
  • Weak to Scald and Ice is crippling. Burns kill it.
EDIT2: If a proban person could discuss taunt + sd sets in response to this I would be grateful, I haven't seen them, and they seem like the sets that could potentially give stall the most trouble.



I didn't think Swords Dance would threaten HO, just make it more effective at being able to push past stall.

If Acrobatics is ALWAYS its only attack then I'm even more inclined to DNB, as physically defensive rocks / steels are a dime a dozen. However your mention of Sub does give me pause (I'm sorry if you mentioned it above I was too lazy to dig through everything and merely skimmed) because it makes it more difficult to deal with through status, but honestly it exacerbates the 4mss problem anymore, because as I see it the set right now is Acrobatics / Dragon Dance or (maybe) Swords Dance / Roost / Taunt OR Earthquake OR Substitute. Without every one of those last 3 moves it will not be able to sweep at least some of the time, and its much easier to prepare for a Gligar that carries only one of those than one that has all three. For instance, carrying an Acrobatics resist that can offensively pressure Gligar (something that doesn't care about Taunt or Sub) AND a generic physically bulky wall not weak to either STAB isn't hard for sets with EQ, and I would argue that all stall should at least have the second. And of course there are single mons that deal with everything.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Random set dump. Some of these are incredibly standard and I wanted it to be that way. Also note that for the most case evs are non-optimized. Very much a wip, only got one mon done tonight. I'll check some other tiime to make sure I'm not repeating stuff.


Quagsire (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Return
- U-turn / Roar
- Toxic / Scald / Roar

Milotic (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Return
- Dragon Tail / Shadow Claw
- Recover

Milotic (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Tri Attack
- Scald / Dragon Tail / U-Turn
- Recover / Rest
- Dragon Tail / Roar / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Scald / Sleep Talk

Noivern (Type: Null) @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / [Ground]

Swellow (Type: Null) @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Linoone (Type: Null) @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Belly Drum
- Shadow Claw
- Iron Head

Arcanine (Type: Null) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw / Pursuit
- Morning Sun / Close Combat / Will-O-Wisp

Barbaracle (Type: Null) @ White Herb / Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Return / Double-Edge
- Cross Chop
- Shadow Claw


Toxapex (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roar / Haze
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes
- Recover

Araquanid (Wailmer) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Liquidation

Araquanid (Wailmer) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Grass]
I'm not pro or anti ban but since you asked for some discussion of the SD + Taunt set:
The story behind that set is pretty dumb (I was like, I want to break Gligar further and I came up with that) but the thing is, the set proved extremely effective at smashing it's would-be defensive checks with a combination of Taunt and Swords Dance-boosted Acrobatics. Here it is the set:

Gyarados (Gligar)
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Taunt
- Roost

I guess you could run max HP over max Attack to ease the set-up on passive Pokémon, tbh Gligar it's already incredibly bulky but sometimes I found myself using Roost more than I'd want.
This set aimed at surprising its defensive checks by Taunting them, setting one or two Sword Dances up and overwhelming them. In general, it is pretty effective vs. bulky builds (especially if they lack the faster support Arceus to quickly burn it before getting Taunted) since Gligar outspeeds most Pokémon in such teams and can overpower even Unaware users with Taunt.
However, while this set is more effective at stallbreaking than Taunt + DD, at only max Speed 86 and uninvested bulk, it offers a generally poor performance vs. offensive teams. It still can take hits with its bulk and retaliate with strong Acrobatics, but offensive teams find it easier to break Gligar and pressure it easily so it cannot set-up SDs or even sometimes it can't keep up with Roost. So Taunt + DD it's a more reliable all-round set since it has a decent match-up vs. all kind of teams, while SD just outright excels at destroying fatter builds, at the cost of being less useful vs. offensive ones. SD can still give balance headaches especially if they rely on its defensive backbone to deal with Gligar (which imo is the most reliable way of dealing with it).
Offensively Swords Dance is not too difficult to deal with (even though as with most offensive Gligar sets, if you don't OHKO it you're likely to be OHKOed or almost OHKOed back, but at least it can't boost its Speed), but defensively, your options are limited to support Arceus (which is faster and can Will-O-Wisp it before being Taunted, but can't switch-in at all), Scald Pokémon (namely physically bulky Water-types such as Wailmer x Toxapex, most of them still OHKOed by boosted attacks) and Ice Beam defensive Pokémon (which, unlike with DD variants, they can be KOed if Gligar boosted previously since it's likely to be faster, survive the Ice Beam and 2HKO back. Then, Gligar can Roost off the damage, although as stated previously SD is easier to revenge kill since it's Speed is kinda mediocre, might be difficult for an stall team to do so though. This obviously does not apply to Type:Null x Quagsire).

Also that Misdreavus is pretty similar to the also legal Mega Gengar.

EDIT: Scyther x Gallade is not possible. Personal preference perhaps, but I prefer going special and using Tri Attack (or even Ice Beam on variants that get it) on defensive Type:Null.
 
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Just found a validation bug (I think)
Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) @ Life Orb
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch
- Sucker Punch

Is a legal set but
Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch
- Sucker Punch

is not.

The messages you get look like this
- Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) can't learn Dynamic Punch because it's incompatible with its ability.
- Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) can't learn Gunk Shot because it's incompatible with its ability.
- Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) can't learn Sucker Punch because it's incompatible with its ability.

It's obviously because of tutor moves not working with hidden abilities for some reason. However, as my usage of a Rhydon ==> Dragonite with both Multiscale and Defog leads me to believe, we ignore incompatibilities like that. This set sucks anyway so idc that much but it should probably be fixed cuz I bet it messes up some other viable things.
 
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Just found a validation bug (I think)
Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) @ Life Orb
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch
- Sucker Punch

Is a legal set but
Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch
- Sucker Punch

is not.

The messages you get look like this
- Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) can't learn Dynamic Punch because it's incompatible with its ability.
- Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) can't learn Gunk Shot because it's incompatible with its ability.
- Lycanroc-Midnight (Slakoth) can't learn Sucker Punch because it's incompatible with its ability.

It's obviously because of tutor moves not working with hidden abilities for some reason. However, as my usage of a Rhydon ==> Dragonite with both Multiscale and Defog leads me to believe, we ignore incompatibilities like that. This set sucks anyway so idc that much but it should probably be fixed cuz I bet it messes up some other viable things.
Spandan
 
Slakoth only learns Dynamic Punch in Gen 3. And there are no Hidden Abilities in Gen 3. So a Slakoth with Dynamic Punch can never have a Hidden Ability.
It's my understanding that incompatibilities like that are ignored. Hidden abilities didn't exist in gen 4 either but Defog + Multiscale Dragonite is legal (sorry if I'm overusing this example). One of these is a mistake.

Edit: op doesn't seem to mention incompatibilities at all; it probably should
 
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smellslikememe

formerly shrektacularshrek
(This is just an extended summary of Gligars strengths and weaknesses, I'm not going to vote just yet. This post only focuses on Gligar x Gyarados, IDK about other Evos as I barely use them)


Gligar x Gyarados
Stats - 140/190/129/80/145/86
Typing - Ground/Flying
Ability - Intimidate/Moxie

Strengths -

1) High base stats - 140/129/145 defensive stats combined with Intimidate let it run all kinds of defensive EV spreads. In fact, its bulk is incredibly high, I'll just put a few calcs that put it into perspective: (Note: All of these factor in Intimidate)
  • Physically, anything that isn't a super-effective move has a very low chance at OHKOing Gligod. Even powerful wallbreakers like CritDon struggle.
    • Rhydon x Beedrill - 195 base Atk, unboosted
    • -1 252 Atk Life Orb Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 117-138 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 129-152 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Rhydon x Beedrill - 195 base Atk, Rock-type STAB, Sniper-boosted crit, one of the most powerful single attacks in the tier at the moment
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sniper Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar on a critical hit: 394-464 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Gligod is basically a sponge. Rain, rain, go away.
    • Krabby x Beartic - 165 base Atk, rain-boosted 100 power Water-type STAB vs defensive Gligod
    • -1 252 Atk Life Orb Krabby Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar in Rain: 307-367 (63.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Even with Ice-type STAB, Gligar's defensive set is still able to absorb attacks.
    • Sneasel x Hitmonlee - 180 base Atk, Ice-type STAB vs defensive Gligod set
    • -1 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 374-442 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Specially, Gligar has enough bulk to eat practically any attack with normal/lowered effectiveness. Here's some of the strongest special attackers in the tier vs Gligod.
    • Electabuzz x Vivillon - 155 base SpA, Flying-type STAB, QD + HP Ice
    • +1 252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 248-296 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • +1 252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 248-296 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Magneton x Vikavolt - 210 base SpA, Agility + HP Ice
    • 252 SpA Life Orb Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 276-328 (57 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 302-359 (62.3 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Even Spritzee can struggle against Gligod. It's totally shut down by Taunt, thus making it bait for both defensive and stallbreaking sets.
    • Spritzee x Milotic - 153 base SpA, CM + RestTalk set, Fairy STAB vs specially defensive Gligod
    • +6 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 327-385 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • +2 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 163-193 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- 27.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 82-97 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Against Taunt + Dragon Dance sets, it stands no chance.
    • 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 108-127 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 10.2% chance to 4HKO
  • So with this we see that Gligar x Gyara fares very well defensively, being able to wall a very good portion of the tier. However, even offensively it has merit. The most common offensive set would be DDance... Acrobatics calcs with invested stallbreaking sets would look very similar to these calcs as well.
    • vs Standard specially defensive Groudon-Primal+1 252+ Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 474-560 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKOAcrobatics off of a stallbreaking set is an easy 2HKO unless the opposing PDon is fully invested.
    • vs Milotic x Type:Null 170/154
    • +1 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Type: Null: 271-319 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    • +1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Type: Null: 246-291 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
    • vs Ferroseed x Milotic 119/150
    • +1 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 213-252 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 195-229 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- Guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • TL;DR Gligod has amazing stats across the board bar Special Attack and possibly Speed (but even there it has a crucial speed tier, outspeeding the likes of Magmar x Vivillon. Was gonna list Magmar x Solgaleo here, but realized it's banned :[
2) Amazing versatility resulting from great movepool, stats, and abilities - Gligar by itself is already a great Pokemon in the UU metagame. (Is it RU now? IDK) It has an expansive movepool that lets it set up hazards, recover HP, pivot, and it still hits pretty damn hard with a STAB Earthquake off of 190 Atk. This amazing movepool directly increases its viability in Crossevo.
  • vs stall
    • Taunt + Dragon Dance/Swords Dance breaks almost all stall cores lacking a good Gligod check
    • Having fairly high powered STABs and a good offensive typing backed up by a 190 Atk stat and snowballing with Moxie, Gligar can be a threat to any stall team running offensive DDance
  • As a defensive 'mon, it can switch in to many threats (like PDon) and force them out.
    • Gligar has a difficult time against offensive teams if it's running an offensive set. Its speed tier prior to DDance is simple too low. However, it can set up against the likes of Ray and Scyther.
    • Defensively it still provides the benefits of typing and bulk, and considering lots of offensive 'mons are frail and weak or neutral to Ground-type mvoes, it can take full advantage of that to throw around some EQ's and force 'mons out and still have the option to pivot through U-Turn.
  • vs balance
    • High bulk and great typing provide a great switch-in to many of the tier's 'mons and allow it to do many things, not the least of which are Defogging, setting up Rocks, DDancing, etc.
  • TL;DR Gligod fares very well against any playstyle due to versatility, typing, abilities, etc.
3) Little opportunity cost - It's not difficult to slap Gligod on any team. It can fulfill a variety of roles which decreases predictability somewhat.
  • Do you really need an explanation? Offensively it has great typing and STABs and power, defensively it's typing, movepool, and ability are superb. What else is there to say?
(Now points against Gligod ban...)
1) Common weaknesses - While Gligod has the capacity to survive some super effective hits, it cannot switch in effectively to those 'mons, nor can it stay in for fear of getting 2HKO'd by a super effective Ice Beam or rain-boosted Water-STAB. It simply dies to many strong sweepers that carry such coverage, such as Seadra evo's, Electa x Nido with Ice Beam, etc.

2) Small case of 4MSS - Can't provide specifics atm, but on most sets it always wants a 5th move. (Acro/Edge for DDance sets that are using DDance/Roost/EQ/filler, Toxic/Defog/Taunt/U-Turn/Roost/etc... on defensive sets, and it goes on and on...)

3) High bulk as well as typings on many defensive 'mons forces it to switch - Offensive Gligod variants are often forced out by strong defensive 'mons carrying status or super effective coverage. Examples:
  • Null x Quag can carry Ice Beam for a guaranteed 2HKO on Gligod, however Roost/Toxic Gligod beats it.
  • Unawares carry Wisp/Toxic can cripple a Gligod without a cleric, examples being Wisp Clef x Dusclops, Toxic Null x Quag, etc.
  • Many Pokemon wall Gligod depending on whether it chooses Acrobatics, Edge, or EQ, examples being Lairon/Doublade x Dnite, Magneton x Vivillon (Not even a defensive check, but Gligod is just setup bait for this one), Doublade x Flygon, etc.
4) Only this 'mon is centralizing - Yes, Gligar is a strong base forme, but the same can be said of many other Pokemon, especially in a meta like Crossevo. Other evolutions are much more niche or easier to check, and since specific bans on a certain evolution of a certain Pokemon aren't allowed, it would be better to keep both Gligar and Gyarados, since neither of them are broken or centralizing by themselves.

Overall those are the points that I can bring up for both sides of Gligod's arguments, if I missed anything (or got anything wrong) let me know!

Srry got really rushed at the end, was getting lazy

Edit: NOOO MY FORMATTING DIDN'T WORK HTML PIECE OF SHIT Also ty dsm77773 I forgot Leftovers completely x)
 
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Slakoth only learns Dynamic Punch in Gen 3. And there are no Hidden Abilities in Gen 3. So a Slakoth with Dynamic Punch can never have a Hidden Ability.
It's my understanding that incompatibilities like that are ignored. Hidden abilities didn't exist in gen 4 either but Defog + Multiscale Dragonite is legal (sorry if I'm overusing this example). One of these is a mistake.

Edit: op doesn't seem to mention incompatibilities at all; it probably should
Yeah The Ruins of Alpha is right here, there shouldn't be such illegality as the cross-evolution is treated as an entire new Pokémon.

(This is just an extended summary of Gligars strengths and weaknesses, I'm not going to vote just yet. I'll mainly focus on Gligar x Gyarados, but I'll include other evolutions as well.)


Gligar x Gyarados
Stats - 140/190/129/80/145/86
Typing - Ground/Flying
Ability - Intimidate/Moxie

Strengths -

1) High base stats - 140/129/145 defensive stats combined with Intimidate let it run all kinds of defensive EV spreads. In fact, its bulk is incredibly high, I'll just put a few calcs that put it into perspective: (Note: All of these factor in Intimidate)
  • Physically, anything that isn't a super-effective move has a very low chance at OHKOing Gligod. Even powerful wallbreakers like CritDon struggle.
    • Rhydon x Beedrill - 195 base Atk, unboosted-1 252 Atk Life Orb Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 117-138 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO
    • Rhydon x Beedrill - 195 base Atk, Rock-type STAB, Sniper-boosted crit252 Atk Life Orb Sniper Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar on a critical hit: 394-464 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Gligod is basically a sponge. Rain, rain, go away.Krabby x Beartic - 165 base Atk, rain-boosted 100 power Water-type STAB vs defensive Gligod-1 252 Atk Life Orb Krabby Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar in Rain: 307-367 (63.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Even with Ice-type STAB, Gligar's defensive set is still able to absorb attacks.Sneasel x Hitmonlee - 180 base Atk, Ice-type STAB vs defensive Gligod set-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 374-442 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Specially, Gligar has enough bulk to eat practically any attack with normal/lowered effectiveness. Here's some of the strongest special attackers in the tier vs Gligod.
    • Electabuzz x Vivillon - 155 base SpA, Flying-type STAB, QD + HP Ice+1 252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 248-296 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Magneton x Vikavolt - 210 base SpA, Agility + HP Ice252 SpA Life Orb Vikavolt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 276-328 (57 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Even Spritzee can struggle against Gligod. It's totally shut down by Taunt, thus making it bait for both defensive and stallbreaking sets.
    • Spritzee x Milotic - 153 base SpA, CM + RestTalk set, Fairy STAB vs specially defensive Gligod+6 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 327-385 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO+2 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 163-193 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 82-97 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
    • Against Taunt + Dragon Dance sets, it stands no chance.0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 108-127 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 10.2% chance to 4HKO
  • So with this we see that Gligar x Gyara fares very well defensively, being able to wall a very good portion of the tier. However, even offensively it has merit. The most common offensive set would be DDance... Acrobatics calcs with invested stallbreaking sets would look very similar to these calcs as well.
    • vs Standard specially defensive Groudon-Primal+1 252+ Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 474-560 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKOAcrobatics off of a stallbreaking set is an easy 2HKO unless the opposing PDon is fully invested.
    • vs Milotic x Type:Null 170/154+1 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Type: Null: 271-319 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO+1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Type: Null: 246-291 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
    • vs Ferroseed x Milotic 119/150+1 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 213-252 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery+1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 195-229 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- Guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • TL;DR Gligod has amazing stats across the board bar Special Attack and possibly Speed (but even there it has a crucial speed tier, outspeeding the likes of Magmar x Vivillon. Was gonna list Magmar x Solgaleo here, but realized it's banned :[
2) Amazing versatility resulting from great movepool, stats, and abilities - Gligar by itself is already a great Pokemon in the UU metagame. (Is it RU now? IDK) It has an expansive movepool that lets it set up hazards, recover HP, pivot, and it still hits pretty damn hard with a STAB Earthquake off of 190 Atk. This amazing movepool directly increases its viability in Crossevo.
  • vs stall
    • Taunt + Dragon Dance/Swords Dance breaks almost all stall cores lacking a good Gligod check
    • Having fairly high powered STABs and a good offensive typing backed up by a 190 Atk stat and snowballing with Moxie, Gligar can be a threat to any stall team running offensive DDance
  • As a defensive 'mon, it can switch in to many threats (like PDon) and force them out.
    • Gligar has a difficult time against offensive teams if it's running an offensive set. Its speed tier prior to DDance is simple too low. However, it can set up against the likes of Ray and Scyther.
    • Defensively it still provides the benefits of typing and bulk, and considering lots of offensive 'mons are frail and weak or neutral to Ground-type mvoes, it can take full advantage of that to throw around some EQ's and force 'mons out and still have the option to pivot through U-Turn.
  • vs balance
    • High bulk and great typing provide a great switch-in to many of the tier's 'mons and allow it to do many things, not the least of which are Defogging, setting up Rocks, DDancing, etc.
  • TL;DR Gligod fares very well against any playstyle due to versatility, typing, abilities, etc.
3) Little opportunity cost - It's not difficult to slap Gligod on any team. It can fulfill a variety of roles which decreases predictability somewhat.
  • Do you really need an explanation? Offensively it has great typing and STABs and power, defensively it's typing, movepool, and ability are superb. What else is there to say?
(Now points against Gligod...)
1) Common weaknesses - While Gligod has the capacity to survive some super effective hits, it cannot switch in effectively to those 'mons, nor can it stay in for fear of getting 2HKO'd by a super effective Ice Beam or rain-boosted Water-STAB. It simply dies to many strong sweepers that carry such coverage, such as Seadra evo's, Electa x Nido with Ice Beam, etc.

2) Small case of 4MSS - Can't provide specifics atm, but on most sets it always wants a 5th move. (Acro/Edge for DDance sets that are using DDance/Roost/EQ/filler, Toxic/Defog/Taunt/U-Turn/Roost/etc... on defensive sets, and it goes on and on...)

3) High bulk as well as typings on many defensive 'mons forces it to switch - Offensive Gligod variants are often forced out by strong defensive 'mons carrying status or super effective coverage. Examples:
  • Null x Quag can carry Ice Beam for a guaranteed 2HKO on Gligod, however Roost/Toxic Gligod beats it.
  • Unawares carry Wisp/Toxic can cripple a Gligod without a cleric, examples being Wisp Clef x Dusclops, Toxic Null x Quag, etc.
  • Many Pokemon wall Gligod depending on whether it chooses Acrobatics, Edge, or EQ, examples being Lairon/Doublade x Dnite, Magneton x Vivillon (Not even a defensive check, but Gligod is just setup bait for this one), Doublade x Flygon, etc.
Overall those are the points that I can bring up for both sides of Gligod's arguments, if I missed anything (or got anything wrong) let me know!

Srry got really rushed at the end, was getting lazy
I'd factor Leftovers on some of these calcs, including Gligar's and Type:Null's defensive sets (both can escape and Gligar can kill Mega Gengar so mot of the time you'd want Lefties on those).
 
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(This is just an extended summary of Gligars strengths and weaknesses, I'm not going to vote just yet. I'll mainly focus on Gligar x Gyarados, but I'll include other evolutions as well.)

Gligar x Gyarados
Stats - 140/190/129/80/145/86
Typing - Ground/Flying
Ability - Intimidate/Moxie

Strengths -

1) High base stats - 140/129/145 defensive stats combined with Intimidate let it run all kinds of defensive EV spreads. In fact, its bulk is incredibly high, I'll just put a few calcs that put it into perspective: (Note: All of these factor in Intimidate)
  • Physically, anything that isn't a super-effective move has a very low chance at OHKOing Gligod. Even powerful wallbreakers like CritDon struggle.
    • Rhydon x Beedrill - 195 base Atk, unboosted
    • -1 252 Atk Life Orb Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 117-138 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 129-152 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Rhydon x Beedrill - 195 base Atk, Rock-type STAB, Sniper-boosted crit, one of the most powerful single attacks in the tier at the moment
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Sniper Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar on a critical hit: 394-464 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Gligod is basically a sponge. Rain, rain, go away.
    • Krabby x Beartic - 165 base Atk, rain-boosted 100 power Water-type STAB vs defensive Gligod
    • -1 252 Atk Life Orb Krabby Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar in Rain: 307-367 (63.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Even with Ice-type STAB, Gligar's defensive set is still able to absorb attacks.
    • Sneasel x Hitmonlee - 180 base Atk, Ice-type STAB vs defensive Gligod set
    • -1 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 374-442 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Specially, Gligar has enough bulk to eat practically any attack with normal/lowered effectiveness. Here's some of the strongest special attackers in the tier vs Gligod.
    • Electabuzz x Vivillon - 155 base SpA, Flying-type STAB, QD + HP Ice
    • +1 252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 248-296 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • +1 252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 248-296 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Magneton x Vikavolt - 210 base SpA, Agility + HP Ice
    • 252 SpA Life Orb Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 276-328 (57 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 302-359 (62.3 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Even Spritzee can struggle against Gligod. It's totally shut down by Taunt, thus making it bait for both defensive and stallbreaking sets.
    • Spritzee x Milotic - 153 base SpA, CM + RestTalk set, Fairy STAB vs specially defensive Gligod
    • +6 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 327-385 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • +2 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 163-193 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- 27.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gligar: 82-97 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • Against Taunt + Dragon Dance sets, it stands no chance.
    • 0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 108-127 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 10.2% chance to 4HKO
  • So with this we see that Gligar x Gyara fares very well defensively, being able to wall a very good portion of the tier. However, even offensively it has merit. The most common offensive set would be DDance... Acrobatics calcs with invested stallbreaking sets would look very similar to these calcs as well.
    • vs Standard specially defensive Groudon-Primal+1 252+ Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 474-560 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKOAcrobatics off of a stallbreaking set is an easy 2HKO unless the opposing PDon is fully invested.
    • vs Milotic x Type:Null 170/154
    • +1 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Type: Null: 271-319 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    • +1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Type: Null: 246-291 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
    • vs Ferroseed x Milotic 119/150
    • +1 252+ Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 213-252 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    • +1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferroseed: 195-229 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- Guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • TL;DR Gligod has amazing stats across the board bar Special Attack and possibly Speed (but even there it has a crucial speed tier, outspeeding the likes of Magmar x Vivillon. Was gonna list Magmar x Solgaleo here, but realized it's banned :[
2) Amazing versatility resulting from great movepool, stats, and abilities - Gligar by itself is already a great Pokemon in the UU metagame. (Is it RU now? IDK) It has an expansive movepool that lets it set up hazards, recover HP, pivot, and it still hits pretty damn hard with a STAB Earthquake off of 190 Atk. This amazing movepool directly increases its viability in Crossevo.
  • vs stall
    • Taunt + Dragon Dance/Swords Dance breaks almost all stall cores lacking a good Gligod check
    • Having fairly high powered STABs and a good offensive typing backed up by a 190 Atk stat and snowballing with Moxie, Gligar can be a threat to any stall team running offensive DDance
  • As a defensive 'mon, it can switch in to many threats (like PDon) and force them out.
    • Gligar has a difficult time against offensive teams if it's running an offensive set. Its speed tier prior to DDance is simple too low. However, it can set up against the likes of Ray and Scyther.
    • Defensively it still provides the benefits of typing and bulk, and considering lots of offensive 'mons are frail and weak or neutral to Ground-type mvoes, it can take full advantage of that to throw around some EQ's and force 'mons out and still have the option to pivot through U-Turn.
  • vs balance
    • High bulk and great typing provide a great switch-in to many of the tier's 'mons and allow it to do many things, not the least of which are Defogging, setting up Rocks, DDancing, etc.
  • TL;DR Gligod fares very well against any playstyle due to versatility, typing, abilities, etc.
3) Little opportunity cost - It's not difficult to slap Gligod on any team. It can fulfill a variety of roles which decreases predictability somewhat.
  • Do you really need an explanation? Offensively it has great typing and STABs and power, defensively it's typing, movepool, and ability are superb. What else is there to say?
(Now points against Gligod ban...)
1) Common weaknesses - While Gligod has the capacity to survive some super effective hits, it cannot switch in effectively to those 'mons, nor can it stay in for fear of getting 2HKO'd by a super effective Ice Beam or rain-boosted Water-STAB. It simply dies to many strong sweepers that carry such coverage, such as Seadra evo's, Electa x Nido with Ice Beam, etc.

2) Small case of 4MSS - Can't provide specifics atm, but on most sets it always wants a 5th move. (Acro/Edge for DDance sets that are using DDance/Roost/EQ/filler, Toxic/Defog/Taunt/U-Turn/Roost/etc... on defensive sets, and it goes on and on...)

3) High bulk as well as typings on many defensive 'mons forces it to switch - Offensive Gligod variants are often forced out by strong defensive 'mons carrying status or super effective coverage. Examples:
  • Null x Quag can carry Ice Beam for a guaranteed 2HKO on Gligod, however Roost/Toxic Gligod beats it.
  • Unawares carry Wisp/Toxic can cripple a Gligod without a cleric, examples being Wisp Clef x Dusclops, Toxic Null x Quag, etc.
  • Many Pokemon wall Gligod depending on whether it chooses Acrobatics, Edge, or EQ, examples being Lairon/Doublade x Dnite, Magneton x Vivillon (Not even a defensive check, but Gligod is just setup bait for this one), Doublade x Flygon, etc.
Overall those are the points that I can bring up for both sides of Gligod's arguments, if I missed anything (or got anything wrong) let me know!

Srry got really rushed at the end, was getting lazy

Edit: NOOO MY FORMATTING DIDN'T WORK HTML PIECE OF SHIT Also ty dsm77773 I forgot Leftovers completely x)

err...How exactly does Magneton x Vivillon make an offensive gligod set bait? When it's easily Ohko by acrobatics, especially after a DD when it won't even able to outspeed glidos ;/
 
I think I may have found a bug in the coding of this OM but I'm not 100% sure. I figured the best place to voice it would be here.

Now as some of you may or may not know, Gyarados is capable of using Z-Celebrate which gives a +1 boost to all of the users stats bar accuracy and evasion. Now the only ability a Gyarados may have with Celebrate is Intimidate. However in teambuilder, a Gligar that has cross evolved with a Gyarados has the ability to use both Celebrate and Moxie in conjunction which shouldn't be possible as the combination, as said above, is illegal.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/1jgUI

I think you should look a little more carefully into how movesets interact with abilities and other moves a little more carefully. IE, a Pokemon like say, Type: Null can cross evolve with espeon, get STAB on psychic moves, use Celebrate with stored power (a normally illegal set) and go on its way with a 120 base power STAB move with a 515 spA with a modest nature.
 
So for example a Pikachu cross-evolution could have FakeSpeed?
Yes. In fact, this is a thing:

Raichu (Trumbeak) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Brave Bird
- U-turn

I think I may have found a bug in the coding of this OM but I'm not 100% sure. I figured the best place to voice it would be here.

Now as some of you may or may not know, Gyarados is capable of using Z-Celebrate which gives a +1 boost to all of the users stats bar accuracy and evasion. Now the only ability a Gyarados may have with Celebrate is Intimidate. However in teambuilder, a Gligar that has cross evolved with a Gyarados has the ability to use both Celebrate and Moxie in conjunction which shouldn't be possible as the combination, as said above, is illegal.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/1jgUI

I think you should look a little more carefully into how movesets interact with abilities and other moves a little more carefully. IE, a Pokemon like say, Type: Null can cross evolve with espeon, get STAB on psychic moves, use Celebrate with stored power (a normally illegal set) and go on its way with a 120 base power STAB move with a 515 spA with a modest nature.
Again, stuff like this gets reported a lot and it's not a bug. The cross-evolutions are treated as entirely new Pokémon and thus illegalities are not considered.
As of now allowing "illegalities" hasn't been much of a problem, just giving Raichu cross-evolutions FakeSpeed (and most of them are mediocre anyway) and Unaware Clefable cross-evolutions a viability buff with their access to Soft-Boiled, for example. I doubt that Type:Null is a great idea, since if you take Stored Power and Z-Celebrate from Espeon, you're left with NO movepool to cover, say, Dark-types reliably. In general there are better Espeon abusers, Omanyte for example is a great one with its access to Shell Smash.
I'll be careful with "obscure" moves that are great as Z-moves, since the entire concept of Z-moves is pretty unexplored in cross-evolution in general, and new Z-based sets may arise that are great additions for the meta, but some may require a close look-up.
 

smellslikememe

formerly shrektacularshrek
err...How exactly does Magneton x Vivillon make an offensive gligod set bait? When it's easily Ohko by acrobatics, especially after a DD when it won't even able to outspeed glidos ;/
I've actually tried it, a +1 Acrobatics (Uninvested, IDK about invested) does NOT OHKO Gligar, and non-SpDef variants of Gligar take a huge chunk from HP Ice.
+1 252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 408-484 (84.2 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile, Gligar's uninvested damage (from a stallbreaking set) is somewhat pitiful vs. a 'mon with 85/85 physical bulk, even if it's resisted.
+1 0 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 178-210 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With investment, Magneton x Vivi can actually avoid a 2HKO from Gligod and sweep with boosted STABs.
+1 0 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Magneton: 139-164 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Not suggesting this as a viable set though, 252HP, 140Def, 56Spe, Bold nature; not even I'm stupid enough to run Viviton as a dedicated Gligod check. This is just enough speed to outspeed Scarf Lando after a QD boost and the rest goes to HP and Def for added bulk kek)

EDIT: Not even the attacking set gets an OHKO on Viviton without Rocks, and even then it's just a 25% chance.
+1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 206-243 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

:[]
 
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smellslikememe

formerly shrektacularshrek
Yes. In fact, this is a thing:

Raichu (Trumbeak) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Brave Bird
- U-turn


Again, stuff like this gets reported a lot and it's not a bug. The cross-evolutions are treated as entirely new Pokémon and thus illegalities are not considered.
As of now allowing "illegalities" hasn't been much of a problem, just giving Raichu cross-evolutions FakeSpeed (and most of them are mediocre anyway) and Unaware Clefable cross-evolutions a viability buff with their access to Soft-Boiled, for example. I doubt that Type:Null is a great idea, since if you take Stored Power and Z-Celebrate from Espeon, you're left with NO movepool to cover, say, Dark-types reliably. In general there are better Espeon abusers, Omanyte for example is a great one with its access to Shell Smash.
I'll be careful with "obscure" moves that are great as Z-moves, since the entire concept of Z-moves is pretty unexplored in cross-evolution in general, and new Z-based sets may arise that are great additions for the meta, but some may require a close look-up.
Damn Dsm, I think we should just put it in the start of the thread so people can stop asking about it x)
 
I've actually tried it, a +1 Acrobatics (Uninvested, IDK about invested) does NOT OHKO Gligar, and non-SpDef variants of Gligar take a huge chunk from HP Ice.
+1 252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 408-484 (84.2 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile, Gligar's uninvested damage (from a stallbreaking set) is somewhat pitiful vs. a 'mon with 85/85 physical bulk, even if it's resisted.
+1 0 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 178-210 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With investment, Magneton x Vivi can actually avoid a 2HKO from Gligod and sweep with boosted STABs.
+1 0 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Magneton: 139-164 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Not suggesting this as a viable set though, 252HP, 140Def, 56Spe, Bold nature; not even I'm stupid enough to run Viviton as a dedicated Gligod check. This is just enough speed to outspeed Scarf Lando after a QD boost and the rest goes to HP and Def for added bulk kek)

EDIT: Not even the attacking set gets an OHKO on Viviton without Rocks, and even then it's just a 25% chance.
+1 252 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 206-243 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

:[]
since Gligar still cleanly 2HKOs Magneton x Vivillon at +1 with no investment I don't think setup bait is the right term for it, Magneton definitely has the advantage if Gligar isn't boosted (or doesn't already have a Sub up if it's running Sub) since it's faster at base but the term "setup bait" implies it would be able to set up on an already boosted Gligar which it can't, even if Gligar only boosts on the turn Magneton switches in Sub negates Sleep Powder and Taunt negates both Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance, and because boosted Gligar's faster than unboosted Magneton it can get them off before Magneton can sleep it
 
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Magneton x Vivillon is a Gligar check, and a soft one at that. It can't use it as a set-up bait at all, best it can do is to switch-in after a kill or something and then 2HKO with Hidden Power Ice. Other variants of Magneton fare better vs. Gligar: Magneton x Flygon and Gligar x Gyarados are useless against each other, eventually offensive Gligar could beat Magneton by setting up or if it packs Taunt. Defensive Gligar will eventually fall to Special Defense drops from Flash Cannon while it attempts to PP stall Magneton x Flygon. Hydreigon variants fare even better since they are way more offensive and can pressure Gligar more reliably, some even carry HP Ice to get past it (in such case Gligar will lose 99%), but they are more easily worn down due to Life Orb recoil and less bulk. Vikavolt variants can probably 2HKO but are the easiest to break by far.
 
since Gligar still cleanly 2HKOs Magneton x Vivillon at +1 with no investment I don't think setup bait is the right term for it, Magneton definitely has the advantage if Gligar isn't boosted (or doesn't already have a Sub up if it's running Sub) since it's faster at base but the term "setup bait" implies it would be able to set up on an already boosted Gligar which it can't, even if Gligar only boosts on the turn Magneton switches in Sub negates Sleep Powder and Taunt negates both Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance, and because boosted Gligar's faster than unboosted Magneton it can get them off before Magneton can sleep it

My Point exactly, Thanks stocke. showing me the calcs was pointless and didn't prove "setup bait" lol. Other than gligar not being able to RELIABLY Ohko it.
 
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