Other Defensive Fire-typing

[Thorhammer]

Types that do SE damage to Grass:

1. Fire
2. Ice
3. Flying
4. Bug
5. Poison

Types that Grass does SE damage to:

1. Water
2. Ground
3. Rock

Types that resist Grass:

1. Fire
2. Flying
3. Bug
4. Poison
5. Grass
6. Steel
7. Dragon

Types that Grass resists:

1. Ground
2. Water
3. Grass
4. Electric

 

[syzygian]

So glad someone made a thread about this.

Its obvious that this has been a problem. The fairy type is a blatant nod to this, as Fire's resistance to it is somewhat arbitrary. I think another major function that I don't think anyone has addressed yet is the lack of fire-type support moves and the moderately small support movepool of fire types in general. And yes, most fire types are just engineered, stat-wise, to be sweepers/wall breakers/revenge killers etc. Given that so many fire types are set up to fill that same role its obvious why only a few are used. The choice few outclass the rest. If fire got some support moves that were distributed mostly to them, such as reliable recovery, a fire type entry hazard, etc. then that could fix things... It really depends also on how popular fairy type attacks get and how much more popular steel attacks become to counter them, as Fire resists both.

 

[sims796]

Types that do SE damage to Grass:

1. Fire
2. Ice
3. Flying
4. Bug
5. Poison

Types that Grass does SE damage to:

1. Water
2. Ground
3. Rock

Types that resist Grass:

1. Fire
2. Flying
3. Bug
4. Poison
5. Grass
6. Steel
7. Dragon

Types that Grass resists:

1. Ground
2. Water
3. Grass
4. Electric

And with all of this, it ends up being one of the better defensive types. It hits what needs to be hit, has synergy with the types that it is weak against, and blocks what needs to be blocked. That they have great support moves are just the icing on the cake.

 

[Boogle]

The fire type on paper is actually quite decent in terms of defensive power, but in practice, it's weaknesses to rock and ground really hurt it considering how common those types of moves are. This isn't even counting SR, which forces a fire type to lose 25% of it's HP (or more depending on dual typing) upon switch in.

These shortcomings can turn something that could have been decent to something that's less than mediocre.

Regardless of this, though, it's just silly to say that fire is equal to or worse than ice defensively. Ice is just awful most of the time.

EDIT: I will say, looking to the 6th gen instead of how fire fared in the past 5 gens, it's getting a definite buff. With a few non-Azumarill fairies running around as well as more Pokemon carrying steel type moves to cover fairy Pokemon, as well as Defog making entry hazards in general less effective, I can see fire making a big comeback as a defensive typing. The only issue is that not very many fire types are bulky outside of ubers and Heatran.

 

[RoyalBlue]

I can sorta see Rotom-H becoming viable. Levitate to evade EQ, Spikes and Sticky Web. It also walls Togekiss pretty hard too

 

[Lol_cakes]

Let's see... we take the defensive stats of Torkoal... and look at pokemon that have the same defensive tier: (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/defense-and-special-defense-tiers.24931/)

-Skarmory is OU
-Forretress is OU
-Donphan is OU
-Tyranitar is OU
-Suicune is UU
-Slowbro is UU
-Umbreon is UU (somehow)
-Metagross is UU
-Uxie is RU but not useless in UU
-Regigigas would be OU/Uber minus the ability
-Deoxys-D is an Uber
-Shuckle has many problems
-Probopass has a horrid typing
-Golem has a horrid typing

Looks like IN GENERAL, pokemon with that great of defensive stats do very well if they aren't hindered by typing. Therefore, there is a problem with mono-fire typing that makes it a bad choice defensively (probably the three painful weaknesses)

Would you rather use Torkoal or Donphan as a spinner+entry hazard setter with similar defensive stats? There's a reason that Donphan is used 100% of the time over Torkoal for Torkoal's most useful role.

This is true. But I can never understand why people bash Umbreon, its such a solid team support in UU.

 

[Age of Kings]

I think another major function that I don't think anyone has addressed yet is the lack of fire-type support moves and the moderately small support movepool of fire types in general.

WoW is all most of them need honestly, and it got an accuracy buff. Some get screens, others get Stealth Rock. I don't agree that this is the issue.

 

[sidakarya]

I always think of that one rhyme about the elves' weaknesses in Wheel of Time for the reason, why Fire resists Fairy.

I think because the Fire-type is overall designed to be the "glass-cannon element", its large number of resistances are the most relevant for allowing safer switch-ins for those same offensive Pokémon. Fire-types do have will-o-wisp, though, and some like Ninetales and Arcanine enjoyed use as defensive support Pokémon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

It's just unfortunate that Fire's weaknesses (Rock, Ground, Water) exist in some way shape or form on almost every Pokemon in the game with even just the slightest inclination to attack. That said, if you could just get rid of any 2 of its 3 weaknesses, Fire would be an incredible defensive typing.

I mean, Camerupt was considered a fantastic specially defensive mon (check to electric types) in last gen's NU, and it has defensive stats frailer than Infernape.

If you could get Fire + Flying with an immunity to Rock, it would be one of the best physically defensive typings in the game-- as good or better than Skarmory's. (immune rock, ground, resist grass, bug, steel, fighting, fairy).

If you could get Fire + Ground with Dry Skin, you'd have one of the best Special defensive typings ever (immune water and electric, resist fire, steel, fairy, bug, poison).

Fire has a lot of potential, but the fact that seeing 2 out of 3 of its weaknesses on the SAME offensive Pokemon is quite common, dual types without immunity abilities cannot realize the full potential of its defensive abilities-- especially with SR throwing a wrench in there.

 

[LonelyNess]

Since Diamond and Pearl, Fire has been and will always be one of the best defensive types in the game, stifled by the most broken move in the game. This will not change unless Stealth Rock is banned. And unlike Flying-types (another amazing Defensive-type hindered by Stealth Rock) who routinely get Roost in order to offset Stealth Rock damage, Fire-types rarely get 50% recovery. The best they can usually hope to learn is Morning Sun. It's is an unfortunate byproduct of the metagame which we have decided to accept. There is one viable defensive Fire-type and that is Heatran for the obvious reason of being Stealth Rock neutral (Fire/Ground would be good if it wasn't attached to fuckin Camerupt).

 

[Dragontamer]

Let's see... we take the defensive stats of Torkoal... and look at pokemon that have the same defensive tier: (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/defense-and-special-defense-tiers.24931/)

OMFG I love you right now.

Anyway, the only way for Fire to become a good defensive typing is if Stealth Rocks became a Fairy move instead. Anyone trying to build a Fire wall is going to have issues with Stealth Rocks.

Take Scarf Moltres for example. It has respectable defenses and unique resists. (It is 3HKOed by non-LO Gengar TBolts). 2x Fighting, Ground immunity, 4x Grass, not weak to Ice... and is a great switch into Pokemon like Lucario...

Until those Stealth Rocks hit it. And then at 50% HP, it just... dies.

 

[mrglass]

So glad someone made a thread about this.

Its obvious that this has been a problem. The fairy type is a blatant nod to this, as Fire's resistance to it is somewhat arbitrary. I think another major function that I don't think anyone has addressed yet is the lack of fire-type support moves and the moderately small support movepool of fire types in general. And yes, most fire types are just engineered, stat-wise, to be sweepers/wall breakers/revenge killers etc. Given that so many fire types are set up to fill that same role its obvious why only a few are used. The choice few outclass the rest. If fire got some support moves that were distributed mostly to them, such as reliable recovery, a fire type entry hazard, etc. then that could fix things... It really depends also on how popular fairy type attacks get and how much more popular steel attacks become to counter them, as Fire resists both.

Actually that's a really good point. I'm getting sick of just Fire types with absurdly high attacking stats and speed stats hovering between 80-100. This gen did a good job of breaking the speed barrier as all 3 FE Fire types had speed over 100(previously only Simisear, Rapidash, Infernape, and Arceus-Fire had speed> 100). But we've seen very few Fire types that try to do other things than sweep or wall break.

Also, it's painfully infuriating to fans of the typing to watch it get ZERO boosting moves at all (Besides Flame Charge, which isn't purely a boosting move). I was really hoping this gen would break that mold, but I guess not.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

God, I'd love if Camerupt got Water Absorb. Not only would it make sense flavor-wise (it's a camel, come on) but it would leave it with a whopping single weakness to Ground and some killer resists while turning its crippling weakness into an amazing strength.

 

[Royalty]

Fire isn't exactly a premier defensive typing and there are really only two very good defensive fire mons in Heatran and Arcanine. Rotom-H can work to some extent but I wouldn't put it in the same class as the other two I mentioned.

 

[GRs Cousin]

Fire's weak to Water, Ground, and Rock... So if we had a Fire/Grass-type with solid bulk, all of Fire's common weaknesses would no longer be an issue save Rock. But then we have an additional weakness to Poison and Flying. And suddenly, all our useful resistances in Fire, Ice, and Bug turn into neutralities. So we get a mon with dual resistance to Grass, as well as resistances to Electric, Steel, and Fairy... Not as useful as we'd hope.

Fire is doomed to take a lot of neutral and super effective hits, despite the amount of resists it normally has. I think the fact remains that Fire won't be a good defensive type simply for the reason that its weaknesses are all commonplace. Had a metagame developed where Water, Rock, and Ground weren't so common, I think it'd be safe to say that, with the right stats, a defensive Fire-types would definitely have a place.

Sadly that all falls into just being nothing but a pipe-dream. If only Stealth Rock didn't exist and tweaks to Fire were made in Generation III.

 

[Garchompi]

Still an awful defensive type.
Fire might have 6 resistances, but 3 of them are awful attacking types (grass, bug, steel), one is itself and the 2 truly useful ones (ice, steel) are also resisted by the far superior steel type.
It might have "only" 3 weaknesses, but they happen to be to rock, and by extension SR, to the most common physical attacks (ground) and to the most common special attacks (water).
The only decent defensive fire type is Heatran and that's only because it's part steel.
Only rock, ice and normal are overall worse defensive types.

 

[-Nitro-]

Still an awful defensive type.
Fire might have 6 resistances, but 3 of them are awful attacking types (grass, bug, steel), one is itself and the 2 truly useful ones (ice, steel) are also resisted by the far superior steel type.
It might have "only" 3 weaknesses, but they happen to be to rock, and by extension SR, to the most common physical attacks (ground) and to the most common special attacks (water).
The only decent defensive fire type is Heatran and that's only because it's part steel.
Only rock, ice and normal are overall worse defensive types.

Normal has one weakness to fighting, and a complete immunity to ghost. It's not bad, you just can't rely on resists.

 

[M BLADE]

It can be defensive as long as it gets the right tools (and Heatran is the only one with those traits)... Flying/Fire, Fire/Ground and even Fire/Fighting would be good defensive typings, but the former hates Stealth Rock, the middle one are all offensive and the latter is exclusive to Camerupt, and Camerupt has low defenses.

I think we can say how Fire is good defensively if we look to Arcanine; after all, it's a mono-fire poke with decent defensive stats, a defensive ability and with a recovery move (the only one with all those, by the way); it's not really crappy, as it can somewhat mitigate two of it's weakness with Will-o-Wisp, which basically every Fire poke has access (Ground and mainly Rock are normally physical ones, though Earth Power still hurts), and it could be neutral to water with Sun support (though it's not permanent), while it's resists are indeed valuable.
Damn SR though...

Still, Arcanine isn't BULKY like many pokes with other typings out there, and the ones with good defenses are held back by a horrendous typing (Magcargo), doesn't have reliable recovery (Torkoal), have better things to do (Victini, Entei). Out of all those, the only one that could remotely make any use of a defensive set is Entei (ah, good times when i kicked many Milotics arses with Entei's Cro set in gen 4...), but even then it still has better things to do. And this defensive set i mentioned is actually offensive, so...

Besides, fire pokes aren't made to wall things; they are made to use those resists to gain offensive monentum, even if said poke is bulky; this is actually what defensive fire does better, and abuses the good set of resistances for.

 

[Adonzo]

Unfortunately, Darmanitan-Z is unavailable outside of a stupid-ass ability. If you could start a battle as Darm-Z, I feel this would be a very different discussion, it being one of the best defensive fire types with fantastic 105/105/105 defenses.

 

[Verminator]

If Fire is going to have any newfound relevancy as a defensive type, it'll depend heavily on how much its newfound fairy resistance will count for. However, it doesn't help their case that the most common fairy at this stage of the game looks likely to be Azumarill, who can wreck pretty much every single fire-type there is with no difficulty whatsoever.

 

[Tathens]

From playing OU from BW to now, Volcarona, Heatran and Ninetales are the only defensive fire-types that are really viable (of course for Volcarona it's good to not have rocks up but if you got a Giga Drain set it shouldn't be a problem)

 

[Hrothgar]

It's kind of a misleading question. If you're looking at fire in a vacuum, it's not bad, but not very good either. But that's why you have 5 other pokemon on your team. Fire's resistances have always been clutch, even more so now, and it's weaknesses are all easily covered. There's a reason it's part of the most popular defensive core. Ground is so easily covered that its basically a free switch-in and therefore a momentum builder.

 

[Garchompi]

^ Unfortunately Ground is often paired with rock, which happens to hit flying types as well as fire types for SE damage. Granted that Levitate and Air Balloon exist, but those are much more limited.

 

[kiriyainori]

Fire has alot of potential in being defensive. And the only problem that almost every post above mentions that hinders it being defensive is Stealth Rock. Amazing potential defensive fires are Rotom-H, Megazard-XY, Ho-Oh, Moltres, Arcanine, Ninetails, Heatran, Arceus-F, while 8 pokemons out of 9 (other than Heatran) all have to deal with SR before it tanks. And thats what gave Heatran a tanking role viable comared the other 8. Maybe I might be wrong but thats how i see this thread is going.

 

[Kejmur]

I will give you a list of every single Fire type that can reach over UU thanks to their defensive merit:

Heatran
Arceus-Fire

If this is not a good enough of an indicator for you on the quality of fire as a defensive typing, the answer is no.

As long as you get good second typing, Fire is good defensive typing. And more important - keep SR off the field.

Looking for examples ?

For example Moltres is really, really interesting typing when it goes to resistances and immunities. Also his bulk is more then solid with 90/90/85 with great ability Pressure, so you may in fact tank those Stone Edges or other low PP SE hits with Roost/Substitute. Let's check them:

x4 Grass
x2 Fire
x2 Fighting
x2 Steel
x2 Fairy
x4 Bug
Immune to Earth

Look at those. Some of those are phenomenal resistances on special side (Fire, Fairy, Grass), while his typing allow him to check some physical attackers as well (Scizor, Hippowdon, Fighting Types) as long as you keep SR out of the field. I'm 100% sure Moltres would be OU material in previous Gen, but... SR screw him up and Rapid Spin/Magic Bounce weren't the most reliable ways to keep rocks off the field (unlike Defog now). Add to this that he has reliable recovery (Roost) and phazing moves actually makes him good wall/tank.

And with Defog buff no matter how you guys say it, but keeping SR off the field is much easier to do, helping Moltres alot. So yeah, Moltres has defensive merit, just keep SR out of field. Of course Ho-Oh is better at everything now, but... I somehow doubt he'll stay with us for too long.

Rotom-H is another example of really interesting defensive Fire type. This time his resistances:
x2 Fire
x2 Electric
x4 Steel
x2 Fairy
x2 Bug
x2 Flying
x2 Steel
x2 Grass
x2 Ice
Immune to Earth

Holy friggin cow. Look at amount of those resistances. 9 resistances, one Immunity and TWO weaknesses in Water and Rock, which are easy to cover (Hint: Empoleon, Poliwrath, Keldeo, Chesnaught, Virizion, etc. etc.). While his lack of reliable recovery kind of suck, RestTalk is certainly more viable this Generation while invested and as a tank he's still fine as well. Again - looks one of the best defensive typings out there.

Charizard X is actually another interesting option to consider. While of course offensive will still be his main niche, but I wouldn't totally underestimate his defensive capabilities. Resistances:

x4 Fire
x2 Steel
x4 Grass
x2 Electric
x2 Bug

While technically his weaknesses are Rock, Dragon and Earth. While those sound troublesome, there are Pokemon which actually cover all of those (Bronzong is your perfect partner here, Togekiss and Whimsicott cover all except Rock, Skarmory should do the trick as well, Empoleon cover everything except Earth, etc.) while your bulk when invested is actually pretty good and you have high base attackin stats, so you don't really need to invest to hurt stuff back. And access to Roost is nice as well.

There are few other examples, but those prove that Fire types may be strong in defensive way as well. Problem since Gen 4 was always Stealth Rock. But as I mentioned - with Defog it's indeed easier to keep rocks of the field, as it's not blockable like Rapid Spin and it's distribution is pretty good. You want to use defensive fire type ? Run 2 x Defog or Rapid Spin + Defog or Magic Bounce + Defog, etc. etc. In this generation it should be MUCH EASIER to keep rocks away. And looking at how some of them have really, really good defensive potentials, why would you not do it ?