Defensive / "Stall" play, and why it's the best

[Spaniard]

Stall doesn't take much prediction if you ask me. Sure you gain information and can predict, but really, what are you predicting if you don't attack (I call prediction using focus blast to cripple a heatran that expected shadow ball). In stall vs stall you may claim that you need prediction to use whirlwind or attack so as to prevent wish from healing certain poke (like in obi's example) but really, you just can't OHKO anything, so you will eventually be at the same position and sooner or later you will misspredict and let them heal with wish. Also stall is not long term thinking. You have to determine what are your key pokes and prevent them from dying. All the reasoning now is lineal and easy: recover, recover, sub, seed, recover, switch in a wall for this poke, whirlwind, whirlwind, roost, set up. That involves low long term thinking.

However stall is effective. It's more like: if your team has advantage against yor foe's, you win. But it's ultra boring. In offensive you relly on understanding the oponent. Predict foe's move/switch and use a denting/koing hit at the right time. It's like: kill or get killed, just one shot.

I have to disagree with obi when he says that in offensive you don't have information to predict. You would be surprised how little information I need to predict well and win a battle.

Stall and offensive is like, what do you rely on? Perfect team design or your ability to understand the foe. Both are valid strategies for pro-gaming, however offensive is more entertaining imo, since it's more psychological and has ups and downs.

When I play an amateur staller it's boring. There's some point in the game where I'm positive the battle is mine but will need 15 minutes to finish it since I need to play conservative. On offensive, when I'm certain I'll win, it takes like one min to achieve the victory.

 

[mirza]

I don't get why some of you are complaining about stall being "boring or not fun." Smogon competitive battling has always been about WINNING and there is no defined fun or boring style to play. You do what you have to to kill off your opponent's 6th pokemon.

First of all stall does take prediction and plenty of it. Stall teams are typically very slow and 1 wrong move can lead to a sweep due to not having anything fast enough to revenge kill your opponent's sweeper. The goal with stall teams is to force as many free turns as possible and to execute your strategy while controlling the pace of the match. Whenever I've used a stall team I'd try to keep my opponent from taking advantage of any flaws he might see in my team and control the pace of the game to my liking. Stall in my opinion isn't boring but requires cruical long term thinking like Obi said.

Rock Paper Scissors is bullshit. Mop understands that and he's 100% correct. It all depends on your team and who you're playing. A good battler can beat a stall team with an offensive team and vice versa. Saying you lost a battle due to a bad team match up is just showing your inability to swallow your pride and say you were outplayed. The winner of a battle is always determined by either the luckier player or the more skilled, it's never because of the type of team they're using. I remember Dragontamer's hail team getting him far and any idiot that lacked his knowledge of the team and skill to use it basically completely sucked with it. Same goes with Obi's stall team.

Stall isn't any better than offensive or "balanced" teams. The better team is the one that's more suited to the small metagame we have. My old stall team that I used when Shoddybattle was first started would easily get swept today by many different sweepers. And a stall team that I would use today would most likely be more frail a year ago. It all depends on the metagame and how prepared you are for the wide variety of threats. Also different players think differently and everyone has a different approach to battling. Again, like Mop said, it all comes down to the player.

 

[Amelia]

I'm also using a stall team, and as long as you do the correct predictions, you would end up very satisfied when you have one last Pokemon and suddenly the entire opponent's team goes down. I also take critical hits into account, making sure that even Criticals won't kill me.

But well, prediction is needed. You have to predict what move your opponent is using, and switch accordingly. The one advantage you do have is knowing what Pokemon the opponent is using, and their movesets. One wrong prediction, and something goes down, and most stall team users will know quite well that the entire team is needed, or it will go down.

 

[FastHippo]

... The winner of a battle is always determined by either the luckier player or the more skilled, it's never because of the type of team they're using.

Chess is a game with absolutely no luck. The better player doesn't always win. The better player, wins more often.

... The better team is the one that's more suited to the small metagame we have. My old stall team that I used when Shoddybattle was first started would easily get swept today by many different sweepers. And a stall team that I would use today would most likely be more frail a year ago.

... Again, like Mop said, it all comes down to the player.

If it's all about the player, wouldn't your old team win or lose because of you and your opponent? Of course not, there's more to it than "the player". Certain styles do have an advantage over others. These advantages can be overcome by a combination of skill and luck.

I don't know if stall teams are the most effective style or not. I do know that I find them boring to watch, boring to play, and boring to play against.

For example, if it came down to something meaningful, like some alien invaders wanted to use a pokemon battle to determine the fate of the human race, I would consider a stall team for that battle. Until then, or when I can earn a living playing Pokemon, I'll balance winning with fun.

Those of you that enjoy stall teams, I have no problem with your preference. It just seems that some of you can't see how anyone could find them boring.

 

[deathshadow8895]

Like astrohawke said, I really think a balanced team works as well. Stall teams generally carry at least one Pokemon that can sweep late game, and some offensive teams have a few hardy Pokemon. If you run something in between, say three walls and three sweepers, you retain some flexibility in battles. It does come at a price, depending on how you look at it. Having three walls isn't as strong as four or five, and three sweepers lack the power that five or six would have. In other words, you might not have enough firepower to overwhelm a stall team or you might not have enough defense to withstand an offensive team. Still, I think it's a workable strategy. It allows you to switch beween offensive and defensive tactics smoothly.

Also, a good deal of people are saying they dislike facing stall teams because it's boring. I actually enjoy long games. I've been in a two-plus hour wi-fi match before, and I thought it was fun. Sure, it was a bit boring at times, but it really tested people's focus and motivation. I think stalling people out until they give up is a legitimate strategy. Stalling them out until they loose "physically" (Or through Pokemon) and stalling them out until they loose mentally.

 

[rokuta]

Stall Teams is to Pokemon is like Campers are to FPS Games.

Stall Teams is to Pokemon is like "Hackers" are to MMORPG Games.

Stall Teams is to Pokemon is like Garchomp to the people who claim he is Uber.

I don't see how stall exploits the game rules or makes you unbeatable. Nor do they cheapen the game. If you can't beat stall, thats now our problem. Stall is a perfectly legitamate tactic, and it was innovative.

The metagame used to fit the offensive players better when nobody could counter anything with their infernape, azelf, weavile, e-vire and generally paper defences. Toss in a blissey, but every sweeper died in 1 hit.

The only bulky poke widely used was gyrados. Everyone thought he was great, but many people didn't equate that with not falling to 1 attack.

Then Dragontamer made stallrein, a creative way around hard hitting sweepers. Then you have Obi's stall team that cound actually take hits.

Stall changed the metagame to generally bulky pokes. Whether it be offensive or defensive teams, most people use bulky pokes.

Sorry that some of us don't like loseing. Stall wasn't even viable until the big hitters could be stopped. Now you have to accept the avilibility of new types of play. Stall is going to be seen; the bottom line is some people like to play defence. If Bulky offensive is your style, than use it, but don't bitch about how someone else wants to play.

 

[mirza]

Stall Teams is to Pokemon is like Campers are to FPS Games.

Stall Teams is to Pokemon is like "Hackers" are to MMORPG Games.

Stall Teams is to Pokemon is like Garchomp to the people who claim he is Uber.

Stall Teams may be effective but seriously no one wants to sit through that BS. If you want to win that badly use a team of Garchomp or w/e. If it isn't about winning whats the point? To waste 30 minutes of some ones life assuming they sit through it all? Instead why not try to innovate with pokes and find unique sets or something. I personally would rather play 1 Billion (no exaggeration) CeliTranDosGarScorBliss teams or w/e the ever so common team is than play 1 stall team. I could at least test multiple pokes and teams against that horrid unoriginal PoS.

Uh if you're that afraid to use your brain and execute your strategy vs another legitemate strategy in a long term thinking match you could easily save yourself those painful 30 minutes by simply clicking forfeit.

 

[deathshadow8895]

Really, I know they can get boring. But I don't care if people dislike playing them (and there isn't anything wrong with not liking to play stall). If they don't want to sit through a long game, they can forfeit. If I can gain wins through stall I will, even if it's through forfeits. I mean, the entire point of stall is to slow the game down, control the pace and chip away at the opponent's Pokemon in order to win. People may not like it, but it's a legitimate form of play, and there's not much they can do about it.

 

[FastHippo]

I personally avoid playing stall teams because I find them dull to play and the matches take too long. [/qoute]

Also, a good deal of people are saying they dislike facing stall teams because it's boring. [/qoute]

I don't know if stall teams are the most effective style or not. I do know that I find them boring to watch, boring to play, and boring to play against. [/qoute]

When I play an amateur staller it's boring. There's some point in the game where I'm positive the battle is mine but will need 15 minutes to finish it since I need to play conservative. [/qoute]

If in a match I see someone with Celebi, Skarmory, Bliss, and Suicune on the same team, I'll just leave. It's entirely possible to win such a battle, but it's boring as hell, and I could play three or four matches in the space of one match against a stall team. [/qoute]

I obviously don't want to sit for 30 minutes in a match and end up feeling a waste of time playing instead of studying [/qoute]

Apparently you guys...

Uh if you're that afraid to use your brain and execute your strategy vs another legitemate strategy in a long term thinking match you could easily save yourself those painful 30 minutes by simply clicking forfeit. [/qoute]

I finish this later..

Apparently, you don't know what boring means. Boring is not directly linked to being afraid to use the brain. It is not directly connected to winning or losing. Boring is a perception of the entertainment provided by something.

I find 95% of field goals kicked to be boring. Is that because I'm afraid to use my brain? I find boxing to be boring compared to UFC. Is it that fear thing again? Seven Card Stud, boring. Texas Hold 'Em, exciting. Fear? Fast Brake Basketball, Full Court Press, exciting. Four Corners, boring. Draining the Shot Clock every possession, boring. Fear?

If Stall was the only effective strategy, or clearly the most effective one, I could see boring being an unavoidable aspect of Pokemon. Fortunately, for me, there are viable alternatives to Stall.

What I find most disturbing is that apparently, some of you think that using Stall means that you are smarter than those that don't. You know, that "afraid to use your brain" line. It's the same thing that I see in Halo 3. Many of the people that like to hide in a corner and watch their radar for approaching enemies(campers), think those that don't, "aren't smart enough to figure how to do it".

 

[Jace the Mind Sculptor]

This topic is about the effectiveness of stall play, not whether its exciting or boring for some people. If you are going to argue that Stall play is boring thus determining its ineffectiveness, than your post is considered idiocy and proves your immaturity in competitive gaming.

I personally find stall games much more intense to play against, that is against actually good players. I speak as if I'm playing against intellectual people and not Mr. Random from Smogon. Pure offensive teams or w/e generic name given to teams of similar strategies to me are boring to play against. I like to think 4 turns ahead because that is how I feel challenged. And my reason to play Pokemon is to feel challenged, not to beat any random nobody on a ladder that means nothing.

in the end it all boils down to the player. I know most people have a preference of what strategy they prefer to play and play against. Which is why this topic is simply here to explain the effectiveness of the stall strategy, completely disregarding the moot opinions of noobs.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, the topic name is "Stall Play and why it is the best" which leads me to believe that it is an opinion topic simply because the title is a biased view.

I agree with some of the views by Choco and Cynthia about stall being dull, boring to play against, or just not having the time because most of the time I play, I want to get a "quick" match in. I remember watching an MDWL tournament match that lasted nearly 50 minutes on Shoddy (translating to about 4 hours on wifi), and it took almost 40 minutes just to get the first kill. I'm sorry for not wanting to be bothered with that. Most of the time when I want to get a quick match in, if I'm faced with a stall team I may forfeit simply because I don't have the time to be bothered, let alone the patience to fight someone who will recover every turn, even if their only gaining +4% with each recovery.

 

[Fenikkusu]

This topic is about the effectiveness of stall play, not whether its exciting or boring for some people. If you are going to argue that Stall play is boring thus determining its ineffectiveness, than your post is considered idiocy and proves your immaturity in competitive gaming.

Actually, it's Obi posting why he prefers stall play.

I've noticed a lot of people act as though anything that promotes stall is horrible, and that defensive play is automatically not fun, so I figured I would post why I prefer slower play.

So, people posting why they don't like stall playing is on topic.

That said, I don't particularly like full-on stall teams. I can understand playing defensively to scout out the other player's team and make more informed decisions based on that, but for me, [full] stalling is just asking for a random crit to ruin your day.

 

[FastHippo]

This topic is about the effectiveness of stall play, not whether its exciting or boring for some people.

I've noticed a lot of people act as though anything that promotes stall is horrible, and that defensive play is automatically NOT FUN, so I figured I would post why I prefer slower play.

If you are going to argue that Stall play is boring thus determining its ineffectiveness, than your post is considered idiocy and proves your immaturity in competitive gaming.

Has anyone made such a claim? The main argument seems to be, "Stall is effective, but boring."

 

[kd24]

Hes not showing immaturity if that is what people argue. Stall is effective although I don't find it boring. I find it fun as it means closer matches and it also means more suspense because a single crit or misplay can easily destroy your stall team.

Also it is somewhat surprising I haven't made an appearance in this thread so I have to say, Stall is effective and when people say it is not that makes no sense. I agree that people who say that generally say that only because they think it is boring. No matter how boring something is, it doesn't make it less effective.

 

[TVboyCanti]

Anti-stall: stall is boring and not my preferred method of battling because staring at static sprites for two hours is not worth a win. We don't care if you use stall, just don't push it on us and tell us that we suck because we don't stall.

I don't know if stall teams are the most effective style or not. I do know that I find them boring to watch, boring to play, and boring to play against.

...until I can earn a living playing Pokemon, I'll balance winning with fun.

Those of you that enjoy stall teams, I have no problem with your preference. It just seems that some of you can't see how anyone could find them boring.

Pro Stall: stall is a legitimate strategy, and if you don't like stall then that's just because you don't know how to beat it, so people who don't like stall are not good at pokemon

This topic is about the effectiveness of stall play, not whether its exciting or boring for some people. If you are going to argue that Stall play is boring thus determining its ineffectiveness, than your post is considered idiocy and proves your immaturity in competitive gaming.

IMO, this thread is just Obi phishing for support and trying to justify his preferred method of play, which he knows to be unpopular with a sizable amount of players. People who like to play stall should just play stall and do what they enjoy and they should know that their strategy is annoying and that it will piss people off and they should expect to catch heat for that. But considering that at least 50% of the battling community does not favor outstalling their opponent an appealing strategy, I think that we should not be trying to promote stall as the best strategy in the game, thus alienating more than half of the battling community. Then again, maybe the stallers want to alienate the "stupid noobs" who don't like to stall.

Also, all the arguments that Obi makes regarding stall as a strategy are all very valid and very good arguments. And the best part is, you don't have to play six walls to use his strategies! Players are perfectly able to use the strategies he recommends with a balanced team that walks the middle path in terms of offense and defense.

 

[FastHippo]

TVboyCanti, do me a favor. Please change the "...when" in my quote to "...until". That way, it will reflect what I was saying.

 

[obi]

Pro Stall: stall is a legitimate strategy, and if you don't like stall then that's just because you don't know how to beat it, so people who don't like stall are not good at pokemon

I know some people said this, but that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm sure there's some of that, but some people do prefer a faster game.

IMO, this thread is just Obi phishing for support and trying to justify his preferred method of play, which he knows to be unpopular with a sizable amount of players.

I don't really like the word "justify" to describe this thread. I just don't like people going around acting as though "stall sucks" is by default true. I don't care if everyone hates stall; I used Baton Pass teams in ADV until I decided that I hated the match-up vs. other BP teams (too much guessing in the first couple of turns).

But considering that at least 50% of the battling community does not favor outstalling their opponent an appealing strategy, I think that we should not be trying to promote stall as the best strategy in the game, thus alienating more than half of the battling community. Then again, maybe the stallers want to alienate the "stupid noobs" who don't like to stall.

We shouldn't promote the use of Blissey because so many people hate it and we don't want to alienate them! We shouldn't promote the use of Garchomp...

That's what Smogon is. Smogon is dedicated to competitive Pokemon. Competitive Pokemon is about creating teams and ways of playing that win the most. Smogon isn't "Your one stop shop for everything about Pokemon!", it's "Competitive Pokemon".

Also, all the arguments that Obi makes regarding stall as a strategy are all very valid and very good arguments. And the best part is, you don't have to play six walls to use his strategies! Players are perfectly able to use the strategies he recommends with a balanced team that walks the middle path in terms of offense and defense.

I'm not a fan of "balanced" strategies. I find that they end up losing to specialized teams because the other team can set the pace of the match far easier.

 

[Spaniard]

Pro Stall: stall is a legitimate strategy, and if you don't like stall then that's just because you don't know how to beat it, so people who don't like stall are not good at pokemon

We never said that stall strategy isn't effective nor that it isn't ok to use it.

If someone finds stall boring he won't accept stallers arguments and vice versa, a stall lover won't listen to offensive players. I respect both points of view.

However, what I'm not going to admit whatsoever is that you call people that dislike stall noobs. You've got quite a few examples in this very topic, name:

Aldaron, wdro, cynthia, raikoulover, myself. You've got two people there that have been rank 1 on shoddy and three that are often in top 10.

I don't like to face stallers but I can beat them. Want battle logs?

Also I find it too daring to claim that stall is the best strategy. I'm sure there's no best strategy.

 

[TVboyCanti]

We never said that stall strategy isn't effective nor that it isn't ok to use it.

If someone finds stall boring he won't accept stallers arguments and vice versa, a stall lover won't listen to offensive players. I respect both points of view.

However, what I'm not going to admit whatsoever is that you call people that dislike stall noobs. You've got quite a few examples in this very topic, name:

Aldaron, wdro, cynthia, raikoulover, myself. You've got two people there that have been rank 1 on shoddy and three that are often in top 10.

I don't like to face stallers but I can beat them. Want battle logs?

Also I find it too daring to claim that stall is the best strategy. I'm sure there's no best strategy.

Spaniard, the stuff I typed in bold were strawmen whose purpose was to summarize the arguments and opinions being made by both sides of the argument, not my own opinion. I do not in any way agree with the argument that people who don't like stall can't beat it, nor do I believe that stalling is not effective. Stall is very effective, and I build my teams to make sure I'm ready for stall (which means using breloom and taunters).

 

[mirza]

This is seriously getting annoying. Obi made this thread to summarize his views on the effectiveness on stall teams and why he prefers to use them. For some of you here that have pretty obvious calibur you're not showing much battling maturity. I know I probably sound like I'm repeating what 3N3MY said but what the fuck guys. Not trying to disrespect anyone here but Smogon is the HIGHEST level of play when it comes to Pokemon you'll find anywhere. Not no JAA or w/e the fuck tourneys you can name can even touch the level of play Smogon has achieved. Stall is one of the best strategies used in competitive play and it requires long term thinking and skill to beat someone like Obi when he's playing with his preffered style of play.

I respect everyone's opinions here but Stall works and whether it's a fast paced game or not it's very intense to play against and for fuck's sake this is competitive battling. If you're not in the mood to play against a legitemate strategy because you find it boring then I don't think you should bother playing Pokemon on such a high level. The key here is to win battles, if you want 7 turn games then challenge random nobodies and feel good about winning in 1 minute.