Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[Fluffy Otters]

And then you realize that not even god himself has the prediction skills to make this set work...

I don't know what you mean. If Deoxy-S is facing Deoxys-D, I would think it would always lead off with Taunt if it has it. The opportunity to try to cripple Deoxys-D and make it essentially useless is too good to pass up and will win even more time. Wouldn't a Magic Coated Taunt force Deoxy-S to NOT be able to use it's support moves for the length of Taunt or would it for some reason only last a turn? And Deoxys-D drags out important information of whether a pokemon is banded or not because unless it's Life Orb Stab Draco Meteor or Banded Outrage or such, almost no attack is going to do more than 50% to it. It forces things to attack it since boosters (and most pokemon that boost are obvious) get snatched and almost nothing can 2 hit ko naturally.

Uh, we are talking about if we should ban Deoxys-S or not and whatever has to do with that. Nothing else.
And that doesn't even do what Deoxys-S does, so that makes it even more redundant.

So says the guy after many posts on the merits of mixmence vrs. mixnite. I know you've nothing to do with that but this was actually on topic as a way mess with Deoxy-S. I never said it does the same thing as Deoxy-S, I meant as an annoying really hard to kill poke that is good except on teams that rely on speed (like the hyper-offense that uses Deo-S). I should have made it clearer that it was to mess with Deoxy-S and having the purpose of a general wall as well but Snatch/Magic Coat is especially hard and actually works on a Pokemon with the Defenses of Deoxys-D unlike others that get that combination.

 

[Hydeous]

Again, what are you doing with Brick Brack after beating Screens?

Are you asking about its use beside nullifying screens ? Well, it's a good coverage move on Pokémon who seek a physical Fighting option, like Haxorus, Nite and Mence. You don't even take it with the express purpose of shattering screens, you just take it because it's a good move in its own right, or at least the best available.

But this kind of petty nitpicking is getting tiring.

I haven't seen much being said that actually proves anything so far. Yeah, Deoxys-S is certainly the best Dual Screen user and generally speaking a fantastic support mon. It has been said countless times in this thread.
And it does nothing to explain how it is actually broken. A number of well written posts are completely ignored in favor of short-sighted "arguments" like the above.

It just sounds like that in the end.

RandomDoomsayer : "DEOXYS IS NIGH UNSTOPPABLE AS A LEAD ! REPENT, MORTALS, FOR NOTHING IN THE WORLD WILL PREVENT IT FROM GETTING THE DREADFUL AMOUNT OF TWO HAZARDS DOWN OR TWO SCREENS UP !"
RandomPasserby : "Er, even assuming that's true for the sake of discussion... So what ?"
RD : "THAT'S TERRIBLE, THAT'S WHAT !"

It's a professional annoyer of epic caliber, certainly. I think the same thing of Drizzle, but I have found ways to deal with it. Everyday I face other people who found ways to deal with my Deoxys. It just seems that once more some are willing to outright ban stuff they can't be bothered to deal with.

 

[JellyOs]

Back on subject, still waiting on the answer that 1 hazard/screen can change the entire battle. How does that happen?

Deo-S sets up Light Screen. Cloyster uses Shell Smash twice as it's incredibly bulky after that. gg, bang.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Deo-S sets up Light Screen. Cloyster uses Shell Smash twice as it's incredibly bulky after that. gg, bang.

Deo-S uses Taunt before you can use Shell Smash. GG

 

[jrp]

Deo-S sets up Light Screen. Cloyster uses Shell Smash twice as it's incredibly bulky after that. gg, bang.

Plus Shell Smash Gorebyss and friends take shit damage from anything baring a boosted super effective move when they're behind friends. Baton Pass teams love having Deoxys-S setting up screens

 

[JellyOs]

Another Deo-S? before I SS? This is why it's bad :P
edit: Lucario Z. The Deo-S uses Light Screen and dies. Then Cloyster uses SS. Same team

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Another Deo-S? before I SS? This is why it's bad :P
edit: Lucario Z. The Deo-S uses Light Screen and dies. Then Cloyster uses SS. Same team

Not if it's still taunted.

 

[waterwarrior]

Deo-S sets up Light Screen. Cloyster uses Shell Smash twice as it's incredibly bulky after that. gg, bang.

Something tells me you haven't used Cloyster if you think its bulky at all after a Shell Smash, let alone 2...

 

[jrp]

Not if it's still taunted.

The only way you're going to be able to taunt Deoxys-S is if you use Whimsicott, and it can magic coat taunts

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

The only way you're going to be able to taunt Deoxys-S is if you use Whimsicott, and it can magic coat taunts

No, I meant if Cloyster was still taunted, not Deoxys-S.
Were you even reading the convo?

 

[complete legitimacy]

Hi,

This thread isn't about MixNite. Move on.

Thanks,

While this may or may not be directed at me, we're discussing how Deoxys-S is Uber because you must use a niche Pokemon to counter it (MixNite).

It needs to run Speed EVs to outspeed Lucario, though. That alone is taking out of one of its offenses. Is it Attack or Special attack? Which ever one it is, I'm sure Dragonite has a higher stat in it. I also addressed switching out. You can do that, but the Salamence is SR weak, holding a Life Orb, could even be taking Sandstorm damage, etc. I doubt you have tried mixnite this gen. Go ahead and do that before saying Salamence outclasses it. I have used both. And unlike Thundurus who could beat Gastrodon with Grass Knot, Dragonite is not losing to Deoxys anytime soon.

Seriously, you guys have yet to give me any evidence mixmence outclasses mixnite outside of "its offensive stats are higher". I've refuted this claim over and over. >.>

The standard spread is 116 Atk / 216 Sp. Atk/ 176 speed with a Rash nature. This hits 341 Sp. Atk, while Dnite is only getting 328 with a boosting nature and max investment. Also, if you use Espeed, you lose your way of beating Tyranitar, or you lose Roost. Espeed is also a niche btw. You lose Superpower, your other niche, if you fun Roost. You can't even beat Blissey either. Dnite can only switch in once before it loses Multiscale. Salamence can switch in a multitude of times with its superior ability in this situation. The only Politoed set beating Mence is the Scarf set. You have really provided nothing yourself to show how MixNite is superior. You say it has extra power, it doesn't. You say well, Salamence can't beat (insert check that beats Dnite as well). Point dismissed.

I'm starting to think you're doing some fanboying (looks at avvy). Mence can even run a better mixed set in rain with Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, and EQ. This all relates to the fact that you are using a niche Pokemon to counter a threat, which makes it broken.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

While this may or may not be directed at me, we're discussing how Deoxys-S is Uber because you must use a niche Pokemon to counter it (MixNite).

I'm starting to think you're doing some fanboying (looks at avvy). Mence can even run a better mixed set in rain with Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, and EQ. This all relates to the fact that you are using a niche Pokemon to counter a threat, which makes it broken.

In rain, Dragonite gets Hurricane which is the same power as Hydro Pump and is 100% accurate and doesn't have to Draco Meteor and lower it's special attack. It's arguable which standard mixed set is better but in rain, it's Dragonite hands down because of Hurricane and Thunder. Now honestly people need to stop arguing about whether Salamence or Dragonite is better as a mixed attacker and other side trails away from deoxys.

I'm leaning more in favor of uber because Deoxys-S is not exactly frail by any means and is a speed demon, allowing it to lay hazards or screens before it dies. It also is a good revenge killer (read, not sweeper but it is supreme at taking weakened things out with it's insane speed and 95 SAtk is not exactly tiny, especially at taking weak things) and surprise attacker. It is easy to get screens/hazards up and allow sweeper rampage and although that is predictable, it is obvious from the many pages that stopping it from happening is a lot harder than it sounds and requires some nifty prediction/odd pokemon, etc. And even then, it still manages to do it's job. Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch doesn't always 2 hit ko after Reflect which is saying something. Not a wallflower and the fact that it seems to lead to some nasty events following (Dragonite/Haxorus/Scizor/Volcarona/Lucario/Etc sweeper boosting up and killing you for example) is terrible.

The fact that there are "counters" (although in Deoxys case it's not him you're usually trying to counter the most part unless it's the sweeper but his support ability) has never stopped pokemon from not being uber like Thundarus, Excadrill, Blaziken, Darkrai, his brother Deoxys-A, etc. This seems like another of those cases.

 

[Ningildo]

Plus Shell Smash Gorebyss and friends take shit damage from anything baring a boosted super effective move when they're behind friends. Baton Pass teams love having Deoxys-S setting up screens

Hmm, Taunt seems to have vanished.
And Paralysis too, which cripples Deoxys-S, by the way.
Or Trick Room.
Quit thinking once Deoxys did it's job, it's gg.

 

[JellyOs]

Cloyster is bulky after SS with White Herb. And Screens. In that situation it can get 2 SS's.

@Ningildo: Only faster Taunt/Para is Whimsicott. Deo-S in lead is nearly always suicide. Sweepers sweep. Deo-S is Uber without Thundurus and Excadrill around to screw it over.

 

[Alchemist Fullmetal]

I don't know what you mean. If Deoxy-S is facing Deoxys-D, I would think it would always lead off with Taunt if it has it. The opportunity to try to cripple Deoxys-D and make it essentially useless is too good to pass up and will win even more time. Wouldn't a Magic Coated Taunt force Deoxy-S to NOT be able to use it's support moves for the length of Taunt or would it for some reason only last a turn? And Deoxys-D drags out important information of whether a pokemon is banded or not because unless it's Life Orb Stab Draco Meteor or Banded Outrage or such, almost no attack is going to do more than 50% to it. It forces things to attack it since boosters (and most pokemon that boost are obvious) get snatched and almost nothing can 2 hit ko naturally.

If Deoxys-D just starts running sets with Magic Coat, its going to turn standard and become so predictable Deoxys-S wont even bother Taunting it.

@JellyO: Sableye gets Prankster Taunt too.

 

[waterwarrior]

Cloyster is bulky after SS with White Herb. And Screens. In that situation it can get 2 SS's.

4 Sp. Atk Bold Reuniclus Focus Blast at +0 vs -0 Naive 48 HP Cloyster behind a Light Screen: 87-102%

That and the fact that it can also set up TR to completely screw Cloyster up. You seem to forget that Cloyster has 50/45 defenses on the Special side.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Since Thundurus keeps coming up, why don't people use Tornadus with Taunt? It has the same stats and although it unfortunately lacks Thunderwave and Nasty Plot, you can still abuse priority speed Taunt, smack things hard with Hurricane, and in drastic situations U-Turn out which will also drastically damage Deoxys. Hurricane also is insanely damaging in general.

If Deoxys-D just starts running sets with Magic Coat, its going to turn standard and become so predictable Deoxys-S wont even bother Taunting it.

Maybe, but few use Deoxys-D and Deoxys-D also prevents it from hazarding against you since Magic Coat would reflect their hazards back on them which they don't want (muhahaha!), Deoxy-S can't really do much against you offensively, and if screens can be snatched (I'm not sure on this one if they can) you can do that as well. Although if they can't, that might be a probkem. It would however be possible to stall for 8 Turns with Deoxys-D until they're timer runs out and screens disappear since they won't really be able to boost (although Volcarona and Scizor would require attention) and Deoxys-D is hard to kill.

 

[jrp]

Since Thundurus keeps coming up, why don't people use Tornadus with Taunt? It has the same stats and although it unfortunately lacks Thunderwave and Nasty Plot, you can still abuse priority speed Taunt, smack things hard with Hurricane, and in drastic situations U-Turn out which will also drastically damage Deoxys. Hurricane also is insanely damaging in general.

hurricane is a pretty unreliable move though...

Plus you can just magic coat the taunt back at Tornadus

 

[Fluffy Otters]

hurricane is a pretty unreliable move though...

Plus you can just magic coat the taunt back at Tornadus

It gives up their fast Taunt then and Tornadus can just U-Turn out to another priority attacker to finish it off. At best then, Deoxys will only manage to get a layer of spikes/Stealth Rock, or 1 screen up (probably Light Screen from Tornadus) before Deoxy-S has to move or die. The attacking version is scarier since it will just kill Tornadus and wouldn't even bother with Taunt and you wince as you realized you were wrong and lost a poke right away.

 

[verbatim]

You know, you're right. -calmly pushes Ferrothorn, Blissey, Cloyster, Heatran, Lucario, Magnezone, Scrafty, and Ttar behind something-

Not many thing'll get through Ferrothorn with Brick Break. Conkeldurr (Futs Bulky Up) deals 81.81 - 96.02% to Ferrothorn with Brick Break. Everyone else needs to watch their back.

 

[waterwarrior]

Not many thing'll get through Ferrothorn with Brick Break. Conkeldurr (Futs Bulky Up) deals 81.81 - 96.02% to Ferrothorn with Brick Break. Everyone else needs to watch their back.

Jolly LO Haxorus at +1: 59-70% to max/max Bold Ferro. (sorry about first calc)
MixMence can smash Screens then obliterate with Fire Blast
SD Scizor at +2: 60.8-72.1% with Brick Break to the same Ferro

 

[Alchemist Fullmetal]

Since Thundurus keeps coming up, why don't people use Tornadus with Taunt? It has the same stats and although it unfortunately lacks Thunderwave and Nasty Plot, you can still abuse priority speed Taunt, smack things hard with Hurricane, and in drastic situations U-Turn out which will also drastically damage Deoxys. Hurricane also is insanely damaging in general.

If Deoxys-D just starts running sets with Magic Coat, its going to turn standard and become so predictable Deoxys-S wont even bother Taunting it.

Maybe, but few use Deoxys-D and Deoxys-D also prevents it from hazarding against you since Magic Coat would reflect their hazards back on them which they don't want (muhahaha!), Deoxy-S can't really do much against you offensively, and if screens can be snatched (I'm not sure on this one if they can) you can do that as well. Although if they can't, that might be a probkem. It would however be possible to stall for 8 Turns with Deoxys-D until they're timer runs out and screens disappear since they won't really be able to boost (although Volcarona and Scizor would require attention) and Deoxys-D is hard to kill.

Hurricane is unreliable without Rain(in which case Toed needs to be in the lead position), Deoxys-s can magic-coat back the Taunt, set up Reflect making U-Turn do crap damage. The fact Deoxys D is rare makes it even easier for Deoxys-S to do his job. Yes, Snatch does steal screens, but both Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D have the same exact movepool, with S being faster and having an offensive presence. As I said before, if Deoxys-D start running Magic Coat, Deoxys-S wont bother trying to do any and just send out something to start beating Deoxys-D with attacks left and right, or boost if it doesnt use Snatch. Deoxys-D's defenses arent that bulky, his Hp is still crap.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Hurricane is unreliable without Rain(in which case Toed needs to be in the lead position), Deoxys-s can magic-coat back the Taunt, set up Reflect making U-Turn do crap damage. The fact Deoxys D is rare makes it even easier for Deoxys-S to do his job. Yes, Snatch does steal screens, but both Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D have the same exact movepool, with S being faster and having an offensive presence. As I said before, if Deoxys-D start running Magic Coat, Deoxys-S wont bother trying to do any and just send out something to start beating Deoxys-D with attacks left and right, or boost if it doesnt use Snatch. Deoxys-D's defenses arent that bulky, his Hp is still crap.

Snatch is for the boosting and either way, you've forced them to not use Screens/Hazards like they wanted. I say that's pretty darn good. Scizor and Volcarona will force you out and you will need something for them but you prevented the nightmare of Scizor/Volcarona/Dragonite behind screens.

Deoxys-D is bulky. Short of +2 Scizor Bug Bite (Choice Band Max attack has a 15.38% chance of ohko), Choice Band Escavilier (even without Band it does over 85%), Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch (which it does survive even Adamant Choice Band with full hp and has the potential to actually screw it over with Toxic if it uses Pursuit expecting you to run), Gengar's Shadow Ball (easy 2 hit ko), Choice Band Dragonite/Haxorus/Salamence Outrage, Choice Specs Tornadus Hurricane (in rain only because of accuracy and pp issues), and Volcarona's Bug Buzz (if you're gutsy you could Snatch Quiver Dances and potentially outstall more defensive variants although you're pushing luck there and asking for a critical hit). And almost all of those (unless fate hates you and it criticals) with the exception of +2 Scizor and Choice Band Escavilier are 2 hit koes. And you have to remember these are stabbed and oftentimes super-effective (or banded) moves. Deoxys will force these to forgo boosting or force to lock them into dangerous moves too early (Outrage). Without Band, Dragonite/Haxorus/Salamence don't even 2 hit ko and boosting is too dangerous, allowing Toxic to make it's work. And these are some of the most powerful moves....unresisted. Those defenses are insane! The only thing that stops Deoxys is that crappy hp...until one realizes that people still use Rotom and Deoxys-S with that same crappy hp stat and they aren't fragile. Deoxys-D is incredibly defensive and it's his total lack of doing much of anything offensive outside of Toxic and Seismic Toss/Night Shade which holds him back. Still he is phenomenal at what he does.

Life Orb Draco Meteors are unpleasant but as long as you're about 70+% you can take it and Recover as needed because of the special attack dropping as well as hp sapping and wasting pp. If you're lower, switch because Draco Meteor will hurt.

And lol them if you Snatch Screens from them. Deoxys-D is pretty much not going to die period then. Anything not steel or poison will get Toxic stalled to death.

For Tornadus They could set up Reflect and although Hurricane is horrid accuracy like Focus Fail they should still fear it because with Specs (in which case you couldn't Taunt but they wouldn't know that) it ohkoes and with Life Orb it has a 28% chance. Or they could set up Light Screen and get U-Smashed and you wear them down with physical moves. And wouldn't it make more sense for Deoxys-S to carry Taunt over Magic Coat?

 

[MetaGross66]

While this may or may not be directed at me, we're discussing how Deoxys-S is Uber because you must use a niche Pokemon to counter it (MixNite).



The standard spread is 116 Atk / 216 Sp. Atk/ 176 speed with a Rash nature. This hits 341 Sp. Atk, while Dnite is only getting 328 with a boosting nature and max investment. Also, if you use Espeed, you lose your way of beating Tyranitar, or you lose Roost. Espeed is also a niche btw. You lose Superpower, your other niche, if you fun Roost. You can't even beat Blissey either. Dnite can only switch in once before it loses Multiscale. Salamence can switch in a multitude of times with its superior ability in this situation. The only Politoed set beating Mence is the Scarf set. You have really provided nothing yourself to show how MixNite is superior. You say it has extra power, it doesn't. You say well, Salamence can't beat (insert check that beats Dnite as well). Point dismissed.

I'm starting to think you're doing some fanboying (looks at avvy). Mence can even run a better mixed set in rain with Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, and EQ. This all relates to the fact that you are using a niche Pokemon to counter a threat, which makes it broken.

With a Rash nature, you now lose to Haxorus, Hydreigon, Rotom, Volcarona, Jolly Lucario, and Jolly Toxicroak. Dragonite can beat 4 of them and deal ~50% damage to the Dragons with Extremespeed. Salamence's advantage is in his speed. You take away that, and he's only better for beating Blissey and some Jellicent. You give him back his Speed and now he's not hitting as hard as Dragonite.

EQ or Brick Break is a suitable replacement for Superpower since it hits the things Superpower would normally hit. Blissey and Chansey are the only exceptions, but then Salamence isn't getting past Chansey anytime soon so I don't really see your point.

And yes, I have provided evidence. If you'd look closely, Dragonite gets Extremespeed coming off a fully invested Attack stat (367), a Draco Meteor that is hitting harder than Naive mixmence, Multiscale, and more bulk. Generally, Dragonite's Draco Meteor + Extremespeed is going to be doing more damage than Salamence's Draco Meteor alone. Extremespeed+MS alone is enough to separate it from Salamence in its role. I don't use Dragonite as a wall breaker like Salamence is supposed to be used, so how can you compare the two? If you think mixnite is a wall breaker, that's just a bonus. I see it as an early game momentum grabber much like Deoxys-S is supposed to be....

I'm ending this here. I don't wanna get infracted by Lee. :/

That Deoxys-D set looks interesting. Snatch seems like an interesting move to use against Deoxys-S. I might look into it. ;)

 

[Alchemist Fullmetal]

Fluffy, you can't Toxic stall Scizor, while it will U-Turn and take a big portion of Deoxys-D's health, and as I said before, Deoxys-S can just switch out and be brough back in later when Deoxys-D isnt out where it can still perform his job. Yes, you can snatch Quiver dance,but you have no attacking moves and any steel type can just start attacking you away. And you cant Toxic stall if you're running Toxic/Snatch/Light Screen/Reflect because you have no means of recovery and dropping any one of those moves makes your team much more suspectible to losing. Yeah, you can Snatch dragon dances, but you cant attack, and if the boosting Pokemon makes a sub, you cant toxic it, and Snatching means youd need good prediction, in which case a well timed taunt forces Deoxys-D out. Choice Band Scizor U-turns out to Choice Band Nite and ko's. Deoxys-S doesnt have to stay in on Deoxys-D. The only way you're beating Deoxys-S is if you have Deoxys-D in, meaning the next chance Deoxys-S gets in, Deoxys-D cant switch in on Taunt, because he'll be forced out and give a free turn. Rotom-W and Deoxys-S have bad Hp yes, but they CAN ATTACK BACK. Not to mention Trick completely screws over Deoxys-D.
and this is assuming Deoxys-S isnt the Attacking set, because it can start Shadow Ball spamming. If Deoxys-D isnt running a screen set, all it can do is stall, which is easy to beat. Snatching is situational, a misprediction will basically have made you waste a turn. All Deoxys-D did was force out Deoxys-S who can come back in later. Deoxys-S with Magic Coat is better at beating Deoxys-S than Deoxys-D with Magic Coat.