Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[waterwarrior]

Please define what this "murder" is. The only set directly doing damage is the uncommon LO variant. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I don't find two layers of hazards or even both screens game. Deoxys doesn't last the whole game, and doesn't have an omnipresent Taunt to prevent hazards. Rapid Spin is not a niche or hard-to-pull-off gimmick, its a staple of some pokes from GSC. And since you have so much experience with Deoxys (as you claim), shouldn't you know that your Dragonite or Haxorus with a DD behind a screen is not an instant gg, or do you say that it's impossible to lose once deoxys is done?

 

[Aankhein]

Deoxys can become setup fodder if it's tricked something.....or if it loses in prediction.

And how is running your own Deoxys (relying on a crapshoot) more effective than killing/disabling it or rendering its efforts useless?

And Normal Gem Dragonite? Where the hell did that come from? The only Dragonite I mentioned is mixed Classic Dragonite, which comes out on top vs Deoxys lol

 

[Codraroll]

And for the record, max attack CB Crawdaunts Adaptability Crunch, also behind Reflect?

Good news, it's actually a quite nice chance of KO there. 97.4% - 115.8% against Dual Screener Deoxys-S behind Reflect.

Whether or not Crawdaunt would survive to make the move, though... and after all, you'd have to lead with Crawdaunt to stop lead Deoxys from doing its job, and there's a huge chance that the opponent's lead isn't Deoxys, and then you'd be standing there with your glass cannon. I suppose a Crunch or Crabhammer/Waterfall with those stats to back up would do quite a bit of damage against practically everything, though. It's a bit like leading with Choice Band Explosion Metagross. Whatever the opponent does will result in the tragic loss of at least something.

 

[Myzozoa]

Please define what this "murder" is. The only set directly doing damage is the uncommon LO variant. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I don't find two layers of hazards or even both screens game. Deoxys doesn't last the whole game, and doesn't have an omnipresent Taunt to prevent hazards. Rapid Spin is not a niche or hard-to-pull-off gimmick, its a staple of some pokes from GSC. And since you have so much experience with Deoxys (as you claim), shouldn't you know that your Dragonite or Haxorus with a DD behind a screen is not an instant gg, or do you say that it's impossible to lose once deoxys is done?

The very fact that it is so easy to get Dragonite and Haxorus a boost behind a screen is in of itself symptomatic of how good Deoxys-S is at supporting sweepers as a Screener. It isn't instant gg, but recovering momentum at that point is probably impossible. Not having momentum isn't an automatic loss, but for many teams it will be an insurmountable disadvantage. As for rapid spinning, it is as much a gimmick as spin blocking is. Neither, of course, are gimmicks and both are established roles for pokemon. However what I will argue is that when you attempt to spin away hazards, that is very much giving a free turn to your opponent and therefore most often not optimal. The idea of rapid spinning is to do it during a free turn, but good offensive teams, because of Deoxys-S' support will never have to give you a free turn to spin (you may be able to outpredict them, but that is neither here nor there). Deoxys-S has made offense much better than other styles of play in terms of consistency and sheer goodness (an arbitrary concept but there it is). That isn't saying no other style is viable, just that offense is on the whole much more consistent than other styles and often has a very favorable match-up with those styles. I am not saying that offense is too good, just that the balance of a good metagame is distorted in our current metagame.

Running your own Deoxys-S is more affective than running a solution to Deoxys-S because even when you lose the crapshoot, your own Deoxys-S will still be affective later. The advantages and opportunities it creates are always more valuable than anything a reactionary solution to Deoxys-S could offer. It is simply more efficient. Deoxys-S is still decent if it loses a crapshoot, its good if it wins a crapshoot, and if they don't have Deoxys-S its a huge help to your team. Any solution (I have yet to see any that are convincing, efficient, or common) is good if they have Deoxys-S, inefficient if they don't, and probably not consistent either way.

Mixed Classic Dragonite...? "hmm how can i make dragonite into a shitty pokemon. Lets see... What makes Dragonite a good pokemon? Oh, its multiscale... Okay so how do we make dragonite bad? I know, Ill give it a Life orb to break its multiscale."
-Gimmick Seal of Approval (1/3)

 

[Aankhein]

The very fact that it is so easy to get Dragonite and Haxorus a boost behind a screen is in of itself symptomatic of how good Deoxys-S is at supporting sweepers as a Screener. It isn't instant gg, but recovering momentum at that point is probably impossible. Not having momentum isn't an automatic loss, but for many teams it will be an insurmountable disadvantage. As for rapid spinning, it is as much a gimmick as spin blocking is. Neither, of course, are gimmicks and both are established roles for pokemon. However what I will argue is that when you attempt to spin away hazards, that is very much giving a free turn to your opponent and therefore most often not optimal. The idea of rapid spinning is to do it during a free turn, but good offensive teams, because of Deoxys-S' support will never have to give you a free turn to spin (you may be able to outpredict them, but that is neither here nor there). Deoxys-S has made offense much better than other styles of play in terms of consistency and sheer goodness (an arbitrary concept but there it is). That isn't saying no other style is viable, just that offense is on the whole much more consistent than other styles and often has a very favorable match-up with those styles. I am not saying that offense is too good, just that the balance of a good metagame is distorted in our current metagame.

Running your own Deoxys-S is more affective than running a solution to Deoxys-S because even when you lose the crapshoot, your own Deoxys-S will still be affective later. The advantages and opportunities it creates are always more valuable than anything a reactionary solution to Deoxys-S could offer. It is simply more efficient. Deoxys-S is still decent if it loses a crapshoot, its good if it wins a crapshoot, and if they don't have Deoxys-S its a huge help to your team. Any solution (I have yet to see any that are convincing, efficient, or common) is good if they have Deoxys-S, inefficient if they don't, and probably not consistent either way.

Mixed Classic Dragonite...? "hmm how can i make dragonite into a shitty pokemon. Lets see... What makes Dragonite a good pokemon? Oh, its multiscale... Okay so how do we make dragonite bad? I know, Ill give it a Life orb to break its multiscale."
-Gimmick Seal of Approval (1/3)

Okay, first of all, you ignored the fact that Deoxys does not always get full support up, as was argued before. That is, you are assuming Deoxys can setup whatever it wants with guarantee. Second of all, recovering from a boosted Dragonite or Haxorous is impossible? If so, then I’d say one would have to rethink his/her team bigtime. Give me a break - if this were true, then you’d also have to say that lead screener Espeon is broken since it can do basically lead to the same situation of something like Dragonite or Haxorous getting an easy boost.

Also, won’t losing a crapshoot to an enemy Deoxys will make you a sitting duck?

And what kind of comment about the Mixed Classic Dragonite was that lol. It DOES get to use multiscale – in order to survive almost any hit that would otherwise OHKO it and retaliate by hitting like a truck and then following up with priority. Multiscale is almost never wasted since the Dragonite will be slower on first move.

 

[Float Upstream]

I feel that Deoxys-S is not broken and shouldn't be banned. If you don't like having entry hazards on your side of the field, there's this thing called a spinner that you should use. Starmie, Tentacruel, and Forretress are all OU and respectable spinners. Cloyster is even usable if you want a set that doesn't run shell smash and focuses on defense. Or, you could run some Pokemon that aren't as weak to stealth rock, for example Lucario or Reuniclus. Magic Bounce Espeon can reflect the hazards back on the opponent, run that. 50/90/90 defenses aren't especially amazing and can probably get 2KOd by a strong attack. Also, running a Pokemon with the ability Prankster can taunt Deoxys before it can get any hazards down. Tornadus is a good candidate for this with a good attack in the form of hurricane and can set up rain dance while deoxys switches out. Taunt also covers dual screens.
As for the life orb set, Tornadus dies to thunderbolt and ice beam but since Deoxys-S doesn't have especially strong attacking stats, a decent wall can get rid of it.
To conclude, Deoxys-S is counterable and should not be banned.

 

[Myzozoa]

Okay, first of all, you ignored the fact that Deoxys does not always get full support up, as was argued before.all pokemon that have been mentioned as neutralizers also hand momentum to your opponent in the act of beating Deoxys-S or else rely on prediction. That is, you are assuming Deoxys can setup whatever it wants with guarantee. I am assuming that. it can nearly always set up one screen without dying, and basically at any point it wants it can set-up 2 screens or 1 screen and stealth rock. Second of all, recovering from a boosted Dragonite or Haxorous is impossible? that isnt what i said, I said it would be nearly impossible to regain momentum. For the rest of the game, most always my opponent will be reacting to me if I can start off with Haxorus at +1. If so, then I’d say one would have to rethink his/her team bigtime. Give me a break - if this were true, then you’d also have to say that lead screener Espeon is broken since it can do basically lead to the same situation of something like Dragonite or Haxorous getting an easy boost.except it doesn't set up Stealth rocks or spikes for PERMANENT impact on the game, and it is set-up fodder, and the pokemon that deal with one espeon set can deal with every espeon set. I can go on: Good scarf pokemon (like rotom-w and Landorus) can outspeed Espeon, and many pokemon can outspeed espeon without a scarf. Its much less affective on multiple levels.

 

[Eggbert]

The very fact that it is so easy to get Dragonite and Haxorus a boost behind a screen is in of itself symptomatic of how good Deoxys-S is at supporting sweepers as a Screener. It isn't instant gg, but recovering momentum at that point is probably impossible. Not having momentum isn't an automatic loss, but for many teams it will be an insurmountable disadvantage. As for rapid spinning, it is as much a gimmick as spin blocking is. Neither, of course, are gimmicks and both are established roles for pokemon. However what I will argue is that when you attempt to spin away hazards, that is very much giving a free turn to your opponent and therefore most often not optimal. The idea of rapid spinning is to do it during a free turn, but good offensive teams, because of Deoxys-S' support will never have to give you a free turn to spin (you may be able to outpredict them, but that is neither here nor there). Deoxys-S has made offense much better than other styles of play in terms of consistency and sheer goodness (an arbitrary concept but there it is). That isn't saying no other style is viable, just that offense is on the whole much more consistent than other styles and often has a very favorable match-up with those styles. I am not saying that offense is too good, just that the balance of a good metagame is distorted in our current metagame.

Running your own Deoxys-S is more affective than running a solution to Deoxys-S because even when you lose the crapshoot, your own Deoxys-S will still be affective later. The advantages and opportunities it creates are always more valuable than anything a reactionary solution to Deoxys-S could offer. It is simply more efficient. Deoxys-S is still decent if it loses a crapshoot, its good if it wins a crapshoot, and if they don't have Deoxys-S its a huge help to your team. Any solution (I have yet to see any that are convincing, efficient, or common) is good if they have Deoxys-S, inefficient if they don't, and probably not consistent either way.

This is more a question of playing the game rather than Deoxys itself. Impossible to gain momentum? You can't just win that easily by throwing screens up. Common scenario: Haxorus or Nite gets in on turn 4, sets up on turn 5, weakens / KOs counter on turn 6, (depending on the counter this can last until screens are gone or just if they sac a mon to weaken it and stall screens, then hax is revenge killed by steel or scarfer. Deo is gone, a sweeper is gone, one mon killed, momentum gained against scarfer. I don't see how that is uber...especially when you have things that are capable of revenging every sweeper available. The next sweeper is brought it, just switch out to something that can limit it from setting up, then bring the revenge killer back. Most sweepers will lose to scarfers bar agility boosts, most of which are weak to priority or bulky mons. It's fair game. 2 screens or 1 screen and stealth rock is simply not uber. Uxie can do that, so can azelf, almost as many times as Deoxys.

I've already stated several efficient and common ways of dealing with it. Besides saying that they aren't, care to explain?

 

[Myzozoa]

This is more a question of playing the game rather than Deoxys itself. Impossible to gain momentum? You can't just win that easily by throwing screens up. Common scenario: Haxorus or Nite gets in on turn 4, sets up on turn 5, weakens / KOs counter on turn 6, (depending on the counter this can last until screens are gone or just if they sac a mon to weaken it and stall screens, then hax is revenge killed by steel or scarfer. Deo is gone, a sweeper is gone, one mon killed, momentum gained against scarfer. I don't see how that is uber...especially when you have things that are capable of revenging every sweeper available. The next sweeper is brought it, just switch out to something that can limit it from setting up, then bring the revenge killer back. Most sweepers will lose to scarfers bar agility boosts, most of which are weak to priority or bulky mons. It's fair game. 2 screens or 1 screen and stealth rock is simply not uber. Uxie can do that, so can azelf, almost as many times as Deoxys.

I've already stated several efficient and common ways of dealing with it. Besides saying that they aren't, care to explain?

Its an oversimplification, and at this point its only disingenuity that could possibly have anyone asserting that uxie and azelf are somehow able do the same things as Deoxys-S in a way that is in anyway close to matching the efficiency of Deoxys-S.

If it isn't too much trouble, you could repost your efficient and common ways of dealing with it. Tyranitar is the only one I can really get behind at this point. Scarf pokemon are poor solutions. The effectiveness of trick is debatable. Choiced priority moves are debatable. Rapid Spin is debatable and will ultimately come down to who is better at predicting in many instances.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Tyranitar has to be Choice Banded to even 2 hit ko Dual Screen Deoxys in which case it can die to a potential Super Power on another and if Tyranitar carries Chople Berry, Deoxys can safely set up screens in it's face. Deoxys has to carry Life Orb to guarantee Super Power is an ohko (barring Chople Berry) which is pretty sad but on the other hand it greatly damages Tyranitar and the threat of it always keeps Tyranitar uncertain. The Dual Screens can set up on the specially defensive non-banded Tyranitar with both screens and Stealth Rock with defense investment. Tyranitar with Sub is more promising there but still has to watch out for potential Super Powers.

On the other hand, it seems easier to get rid of the Hazard laying one overall since it usually doesn't screen in your face and although it's almost impossible to ohko (it will also usually carry Focus Sash which is useless against Tyranitar but I guess it will save it against a Surprise Choice Scarf Zoroark or Gengar or some such since few can ohko) it's pretty easy to 2 hit ko it seems like. Barring surprise random moves that hit you super effective, it's not too bad. If it was only a spiker or only a cleaner-upper, I would be comfortable with this in OU. And if it was only a Dual Screener still maybe although it is definitely a superior screener overall. But since it has the potential to do all of the above (not at the same time of course) with almost impossibly high speed to outrun, all this combines to lean it very heavily onto the uber side.

Though it is pretty sad that the attacking power without max investment and Life Orb is...lacking. With no investment, it requires Life Orb to ohko Tyranitar with Super Power and a 248 Hp/0 SDef Scizor only has a 33.33% chance of being ohkoed with Life Orb. Course Scizor dies if it's the cleaner upper but on the hazard carrier, that's terrible. If it wasn't for the varriety and absolute speed this thing has (spiker/screener/cleanerupper/hybrid) this wouldn't even be much of an issue. But the speed this thing does it's work definitely is what puts on the fence.

 

[complete legitimacy]

This is more a question of playing the game rather than Deoxys itself. Impossible to gain momentum? You can't just win that easily by throwing screens up. Common scenario: Haxorus or Nite gets in on turn 4, sets up on turn 5, weakens / KOs counter on turn 6, (depending on the counter this can last until screens are gone or just if they sac a mon to weaken it and stall screens, then hax is revenge killed by steel or scarfer. Deo is gone, a sweeper is gone, one mon killed, momentum gained against scarfer. I don't see how that is uber...especially when you have things that are capable of revenging every sweeper available. The next sweeper is brought it, just switch out to something that can limit it from setting up, then bring the revenge killer back. Most sweepers will lose to scarfers bar agility boosts, most of which are weak to priority or bulky mons. It's fair game. 2 screens or 1 screen and stealth rock is simply not uber. Uxie can do that, so can azelf, almost as many times as Deoxys.

I've already stated several efficient and common ways of dealing with it. Besides saying that they aren't, care to explain?

This post, more than any other one of your posts, shows your lack of knowledge of the metagame. A lot of what you're saying isn't true. Since we're using Haxorus as an example, I have used one on a successful Dual Screen Hyper Offense team. With screens, it's really easy for Haxorus to get to +2. At that point the only thing outspeeding it is like Scarf Accelgor which is completely unviable. Also, it's only true counter is Skarmory, so no other steel will be able to wall or kill it. There goes the validity of your argument.

This is only added to when you keep insisting that Uxie or Azelf is about as good a Dual Screener as Deoxys-S. So please, just stop. Your arguments mean nothing anymore.

 

[Boooyah21]

I am neutral on Deoxys-S. Quick question tho, instead of constantly debating who is right and wrong, why can't we do a one-month test ban like PO?

 

[ssbbm]

This post, more than any other one of your posts, shows your lack of knowledge of the metagame. A lot of what you're saying isn't true. Since we're using Haxorus as an example, I have used one on a successful Dual Screen Hyper Offense team. With screens, it's really easy for Haxorus to get to +2. At that point the only thing outspeeding it is like Scarf Accelgor which is completely unviable. Also, it's only true counter is Skarmory, so no other steel will be able to wall or kill it. There goes the validity of your argument.

This is only added to when you keep insisting that Uxie or Azelf is about as good a Dual Screener as Deoxys-S. So please, just stop. Your arguments mean nothing anymore.

um. haxorus, while it will be able to get to +2/+2 can still be beaten by stuff like gyro ball ferrothorn. even if it does get up to +2/+2, it still can't ohko most steels with Outrage, so it will eventually be revenged.

and espeon is probably as good as deo-s, tbh (though the inability to outspeed scarfers is "meh").

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Haxorus will still 2 hit ko with Outrage on Ferrothorn and Ferrothorn with Gyroball doesn't kill it because of Reflect. It could be revenged by a very strong Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch or Dragonite Extremespeed but otherwise, no, not really. And Brongzong dies to Earthquake, horribly. Every other steel is easily pummeled for 2 hit ko, even Skarmory. At least it can Whirlwind it out (because Brave Bird doesn't do much behind Reflect). And Dragonite is a friend of Haxoruses and will often clean up what's left (and vice versa).

 

[Pocket]

complete legitimacy - This post, more than any other one of your posts, shows your lack of knowledge of the metagame. A lot of what you're saying isn't true. Since we're using Haxorus as an example, I have used one on a successful Dual Screen Hyper Offense team. With screens, it's really easy for Haxorus to get to +2. At that point the only thing outspeeding it is like Scarf Accelgor which is completely unviable. Also, it's only true counter is Skarmory, so no other steel will be able to wall or kill it. There goes the validity of your argument.

This is only added to when you keep insisting that Uxie or Azelf is about as good a Dual Screener as Deoxys-S. So please, just stop. Your arguments mean nothing anymore.

Eggbert's an avid user of HO - he definitely knows what he's talking about. The scenario he portrayed is usually how competent teams consistently beat HO. Notice that in his scenario, Haxorus doesn't reach to +2. Whoever you battled that made you conclude that Haxorus grabbing 2 DDs is easy did not battle well. A person can even be ballsy and switch in their Scarf Latios as Haxorus DD. Scarf Latios would then proceed to OHKO Haxorus with DM even through Light Screen, and Haxorus accomplished nothing. HO is usually so predictable, that such a scenario is allowed to happen frequently.

Proving Haxorus's ability to set up on defensive walls and wreak havoc under Screens doesn't really prove the brokenness of Deoxys-S. No body is doubting that Deoxys-S is the BEST SCREENER in OU. However, you guys are grossly underestimating the viability of other Screeners. Other Dual Screeners can CONSISTENTLY put up Reflect / Light Screen; Deoxys-S isn't the only one that can set up Screens for Haxorus to sweep.

 

[Eggbert]

Pocket is completely right. Not only is haxorus not getting 2 DDs before being whittled down by brave birds, bullet punches, gyro balls, but by outraging those steels the screen turns will go away. It succeeds in weakening the steels at the cost of 1/3 of your team. It isn't that easy using dual screens offense. I will eventually get to actually testing other screeners quickly, just for the leading aspects, and I will post logs to show that they can set up almost as well as Deo. I don't have that much time, I'll try and get to them in a few days or so. (Can't wait to test memento Uxie in particular, it might be even more effective).

If it isn't too much trouble, you could repost your efficient and common ways of dealing with it. Tyranitar is the only one I can really get behind at this point. Scarf pokemon are poor solutions. The effectiveness of trick is debatable. Choiced priority moves are debatable. Rapid Spin is debatable and will ultimately come down to who is better at predicting in many instances.

Specially defensive SD Scizor will beat it, (it takes 85-101% from LO hp fire which is the worst possible scenario) offensive Scizor could run occa, which is still really useful otherwise since it lets you check DDnite and Hp fire celebi / latias. Honestly though, you won't see hp fire on most deoxys. Starmie will beat Deoxys nearly every time, I've never seen thunderbolt since it doesn't much for deoxys bar hitting Starmie. Thunder wave Jirachi will limit deoxys to 1-2 hazards. Reuniclus can pressure deoxys into taunting while shadow balling, but this isn't certain. Sometimes there is an element of uncertainty, but for the most part Deoxys won't usually have the worst possible coverage move, just lead with things that can kill it quickly and aren't afraid of being OHKO'd. Rapid spinning also isn't that difficult if you run starmie, since it is nearly impossible for offensive teams to block with gengar. Not really that debatable. There are many more these are just some I use.

 

[Woodchuck]

But... even if Deoxys-S can set up screens consistently, how does that make it broken? Screens provide setup opportunities, but so do Choice mons, and Wobbuffet, and threatening out walls, and...

I guess I've been rather out of the loop for this discussion, but really, what about Deoxys-S is actually broken. If its brokenness stems from it easily being able to set up hazards/screens... screens only last for eight turns and as has already been stated earlier in this thread, aren't really broken in themselves. Hazards can be spun, priority taunt exists, and if Deoxys-S runs Taunt to stop opponents from setting up hazards on it then it basically loses to everything that it can't hit with its one coverage move.

As for offensive Deo-s... I've run it and I haven't actually had too much success with it. Could someone paint me a general picture of what kind of team works best with offensive deo?

 

[Pocket]

Well, offensive Deo is a great revenge-killer of Dragon Dancers and it can destroy Volt-Turn combos with its coverage moves and Speed, so you probably want to capitalize on these advantages.

Reuniclus, Jirachi, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Espeon, Sableye, and specially-defensive Celebi are all hard counters to LO Deo-S. Specially-defensive Heatran can survive 2 Superpowers, iirc. Most priority moves fail to outright OHKO Deoxys-S, but all it takes is a couple of LO-recoils to put Deo-S into kill range.

 

[iSkittles]

Prediction...I never use this in an argument because prediction goes both ways. You can predict your opponent will use Taunt, but I can then predict that and just do something else. Using prediction in an argument is just bad, no offense.



- Of those mentioned, only Terrakion is commonly seen while IMO, Scarf Gengar/Starmie is just a waste since they rely on their coverage to be good.

- The most common set is the Sp.Def set and the Rain abuser. Every other set should just be ignored unless it becomes standard. Regardless, Jirachi is still not stopping Screens or Hazards.
And before you say anything, both(or all three) of Deoxys' sets are commonly used and they're all very versatile, so you could mix Hazards + Screens, Hazards + Attacker, etc.

- The powerful water attack is all fine and dandy, but even Max Sp.Attack Specs Toed in the Rain only has a 2.56% chance to OHKO Deoxys behind Light Screen...which is the same as CB T-tar btw.
Encore would be annoying, but it just turns into another prediction war. If I Taunt you...well, you're screwed and if you Encore me, I still have a LS up/hazards and Deo essentially lost nothing except a bit of momentum which will be quickly regained because Politoed isn't exactly hard to force out. Perish Song might be good though, but then again, Taunt is there; so it turns into a big prediction war.

- BOOM! LO Psycho Boost/HP Fire :P
Anyway, this could actually work, but then you're risking two pokemon to just beat one.

- Deoxys shouldn't care at all about Dnite setting up a single DD because after Reflect, he's essentially at -1. And why would you use MixNite? It's already been stated that MixMence is just way better because MixNite gets rid of its only advantages as soon as it attacks a single time.
Something else to note is that your calc is with a Max Sp.Attack Dragonite, which is kinda sad <,<

- Against Espeon...my Deoxys sets up Dual Screens...and proceeds to set up in your face as Espeon is pretty much at +0 after two CMs.
Anyway, who even uses CM Espeon outside of Baton Pass? o.o





No one says it guarantees a win. We're saying it guarantees offensive momentum. I'd gladly start a battle at 5-6 if it means all my pokemon are at +2 Defenses and possibly having hazards too.


@ Pocket/iSkittles:

It's not that we can't adapt(hell, I was Pro-OU for Blaziken at first <,<), it's that it's just unhealthy for the metagame.
Does ANYONE like to start out at a disadvantage just because they don't carry *insert niche counter here*?

Your post straight up contradicts itself.

It's not that we can't adapt(hell, I was Pro-OU for Blaziken at first <,<), it's that it's just unhealthy for the metagame.

The guy pretty much spelled out HEY THIS IS HOW YOU BEAT DEO-S and your entire retort was "lol shitsux nope" so really, all I see is a great big nope nope nope nope I don't wanna change my team because it's not standard.

You know, not everything has to be standard to be effective outside of the role you need it to fill on your team. If Deo-S is such a humongous threat like the pro ubers camp is making it out to be and there are perfectly viable but non standards sets out there, then you should make them standard since Deo-S is now recognized as a threat that needs to be taken into account for.

Now if you refuse to change anything and expect your team to just auto stop Deo-S then you're doing it wrong and have adopted a lazy, and whiny battling personality which imo is what caused this problem of being ban happy in the first place.

All this goes back to my refusal to adapt argument earlier. No matter what, in the game of Pokemon, nothing is 100% since the very nature of battling is based on assumptions or what we call "predictions" which is really glorified guessing. So because there's a pokemon that by it's nature makes predicting fall flat on its ass I don't find this to be a game breaking or even bad thing. I find this to be healthy for the metagame because it forces lazy battlers to carefully consider their options instead of just "lol send in my counter now gg".

Anyways, I could go on and on, but I already feel like this post is too long. Don't take what I said as a personal attack on you or anyone else, it's simply my humble observations after watching both side's arguments and forming my own opinion. I'm still completely neutral on the matter. But I do firmly believe that people need more time to get used to the idea of Deo-S being here to stay instead of moaning and bitching about it.

That's one of the bigger problems with our userbase. If enough people cry and whine about how they personally don't like something and rally support they can eventually get something banned. Only in very, very rare cases does the whining not produce a ban which is a problem in my eyes. (Although every ban so far has be justified so props on that.)

Again, sorry for this ridiculous post/rant whatever.

 

[ssbbm]

But... even if Deoxys-S can set up screens consistently, how does that make it broken? Screens provide setup opportunities, but so do Choice mons, and Wobbuffet, and threatening out walls, and...

I guess I've been rather out of the loop for this discussion, but really, what about Deoxys-S is actually broken. If its brokenness stems from it easily being able to set up hazards/screens... screens only last for eight turns and as has already been stated earlier in this thread, aren't really broken in themselves. Hazards can be spun, priority taunt exists, and if Deoxys-S runs Taunt to stop opponents from setting up hazards on it then it basically loses to everything that it can't hit with its one coverage move.

As for offensive Deo-s... I've run it and I haven't actually had too much success with it. Could someone paint me a general picture of what kind of team works best with offensive deo?

deo-s is actually a pretty good cleaner on semi-stall teams, and it also helps that deo-s can revenge most threats to such teams like dd haxorus, dd mence

 

[alexwolf]

This is more a question of playing the game rather than Deoxys itself. Impossible to gain momentum? You can't just win that easily by throwing screens up. Common scenario: Haxorus or Nite gets in on turn 4, sets up on turn 5, weakens / KOs counter on turn 6, (depending on the counter this can last until screens are gone or just if they sac a mon to weaken it and stall screens, then hax is revenge killed by steel or scarfer. Deo is gone, a sweeper is gone, one mon killed, momentum gained against scarfer. I don't see how that is uber...especially when you have things that are capable of revenging every sweeper available. The next sweeper is brought it, just switch out to something that can limit it from setting up, then bring the revenge killer back. Most sweepers will lose to scarfers bar agility boosts, most of which are weak to priority or bulky mons. It's fair game. 2 screens or 1 screen and stealth rock is simply not uber. Uxie can do that, so can azelf, almost as many times as Deoxys.

I've already stated several efficient and common ways of dealing with it. Besides saying that they aren't, care to explain?

It seems logical to me that you don't find Deoxys-S broken when you can't recognize his importance at HO teams.
You even believe that if Deoxys-S wasn't around another screenr would just take its place,while this is so obviosuly wrong.
So while i get why you don't find him broken(you don't get his importance as a screener combined with his other very good sets and versatility)
you cannot say anymore that reasons have not been given to you to explain you Deoxys-S brokeness.You just don't get them or don't agree with them.
Finally you can always go and ask a HO offensive player to talk to you about Deoxys-S.Not about his brokeness,because this is arguable,but about the difference between him and other screeners...

um. haxorus, while it will be able to get to +2/+2 can still be beaten by stuff like gyro ball ferrothorn. even if it does get up to +2/+2, it still can't ohko most steels with Outrage, so it will eventually be revenged.

and espeon is probably as good as deo-s, tbh (though the inability to outspeed scarfers is "meh").

Haxorus can even use Dragon Claw if it is at +2,and kill almost everything while not getting locked.So when your Ferro comes in it will simply get ohkoed by Brick Break.

Anyway i am going to repeat the reasons that,imo,make Deoxys-S broken.
1.His DS screen is his best set and the one i find to be broken.It offers immense support WHILE at the same time can setup both entry hazards.No other screener comes even close on doing what Deoxys-S does for offensive teams.
2.His hazards setter set is just a little bit less threatening but very dangerous as well.Again this set helps greatly offensive team with the entry hazards it sets helping sweepers to sweep.
Deoxys-S as a hazard layer will MOST of the time get 2 layer of entry hazrads up which is all an offensive team needs to break through walls and counters.Also Deoxys-S holds a great deal of unpredictability which allows him to ohko common spinners or counters(TTar,Starmie,Tentacruel etc).This makes the opponent more conservative when facing Deoxys-S,forcing more switches and thus giving more free turns for Deoxys-S to lay hazards.
Finally even after Deoxys-S dies the hazards that he put are not easy to get rid of since offensive teams don't leave you too much space to react.
3.When taking the LO cleaner,which is a very good set but not broken like the other 2 sets,into account you find that Deoxys-S runs 3 very good sets,each of them having different counters and each of them being very destructive and dangerous.
So even if the hazard layer set or the DS set weren't broken on their own,if you combine them alltogether they create a broken result.

Finally to also cleat this up i want everyone on the pro-OU side to tell me some counters or ways to reliably beat the DS set,which means giving to Deoxys-S only 1 turn of setup.

 

[X5Dragon]

I think this thread should be closed before it turns into a flame war. We heard everyone on both camps and from all ranks in OUn it should be enough to form a census. In the future I would also suggesting adding a poll to get a more clear view.

To sum everthing up, as it goes for support deo nothing can stop the dual screen version from setting at least one screen the can hinder the anti lead. The hazard deo can only be stopped by using Espoen or Natu. Magic coat users can be considered as an option but given deo's ability pressure that is bound to fail if said deo carries an attack with it abd people will memorize magic coat users by heart. Prankster taunts are a third option but a mental herb deo will just laugh at you back. The final and less important deo, the sweeper can handled by focus sashes, ms or a variety of other options but the problem remains in identyfying what deo does exactly sinxe it can be a mix of the three though a good read of the preview should give you a good idea.

 

[waterwarrior]

I explained to you this already.If you want to believe that Uxie and Azelf can do the DS job almost as good as Deoxys-S then you are just being ignorant.
You can keep on believeing this if you want but don't ask anyone to explain to you why Deoxys-S is by far the best screener.
You even believe that if Deoxys-S wasn't around another screenr would just take its place,while this is so obviosuly wrong.

Have you actually tested it? Testing > theorymon in every possible situation. And all your argument against other screeners is (and pretty much always has been) "lololol Deoxys is better!"


And I've had it to hell with that last statement. Remember when Sun offense was king of OU with Blaziken leading the pack? And remember how Sand offense with Exca picked up a second after Blaziken got the boot? And remember when Dragonite wasn't number 1 in OU? Every single ban made this gen has had a replacement, why the hell wouldn't Deoxys (and please, more or a counterargument than "they're not as good as Deoxys)?

EDIT: I didn't mean as suspect, I meant as a DS on HO teams. Hopefully, Uxie will never be deemed suspect, but saying that no screener has a chance of replacing deoxys on teams is what alexwolf is saying. And Volcarona isn't exactly a supporter.

 

[X5Dragon]

In all honest each and every one of these pokenons that were OU theb went to uber were suspects from the very beginingn they just eclipsed each other.

Nothing will replace deo because the remaining pokemon that could be nominated are volca which has tons of counters and will always be inhibted by the hp it has if it evwn carries it and nite which is finished off by priorities and boosted ice\dragon attacks. Deo is the last threat remaining.

 

[Taylor]

so then that would suggest to me that weather wars, with the most prominent pokemon in the metagame, just ecplise one another and that we won't have a desired metagame because the next suspect is always around the corner?