Blissey is on just about every single team in this gen, its insane. is explosion going to be standard for alot of the good special attackers now a days? like gengar, heatran, magnezone, and azelf. blissey is even more unpredictable this gen with calm mind sets, singbliss, and charge beams starting to show up on them, making it even harder to switch a physical attacker in untouched. it looks like physical attacks outrank special this gen since there arent any physical walls as good as blissey is as a special wall. even the god of physical walls, skarm, can be killed by physical attackers, like choice band heracross using close combat or anything with flare blitz. and yet there is no special attack strong enough to even 3HKO a blissey.
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do all special attackers need a physical move this gen?
- Thread starter 9voltdude
- Start date
It depends on which one, as if their attack is really low, then they're probably just better off attacking with their special attack. Of course, you could always switch.
There is absolutely no difference as compared to Advance. If anything, Special attackers got better in comparison with the advent of Choice Specs and the ability of certain Special attackers even able to bust through Blissey now (Aura Sphere users, Porygon-Z). Physical attackers have always been "better" because their moves are more universal (how many pokémon can learn Earth Power and Aura Sphere as compared to Earthquake and Close Combat?) and there's no physical wall analogous to Blissey as a Special wall.
Getting walled isn't necessary a problem. If I switch Starmie in to scare off Gyarados, I don't care what switches in as long as Gyarados switches OUT (or dies). That said, many people rely too heavily on Blissey as a Special wall and since the most dangerous threats are mostly physical, typical defensive EV spreads also tend toward the physical side. If your opponent is using Blissey and you can get it out of the way with a heavy Special attacker still in the wings, there's a good chance it can wreak some havoc. That, or use one that can directly take Blissey on (the above named, Focus Blast Gengar/'Zam).
Getting walled isn't necessary a problem. If I switch Starmie in to scare off Gyarados, I don't care what switches in as long as Gyarados switches OUT (or dies). That said, many people rely too heavily on Blissey as a Special wall and since the most dangerous threats are mostly physical, typical defensive EV spreads also tend toward the physical side. If your opponent is using Blissey and you can get it out of the way with a heavy Special attacker still in the wings, there's a good chance it can wreak some havoc. That, or use one that can directly take Blissey on (the above named, Focus Blast Gengar/'Zam).
Skarmory isn't a physical wall like Blissey a special one?
Skarmory got hurt fairly badly as a physical wall with the split for special/physical attacks. It has typing that had few physical weaknesses in ADV, but provides several excellent physical weaknesses to go after now. No longer can it resist nearly every physical threat, and while Blissey still has relatively few weaknesses (Normal Typing is good for that), Skarmory has several.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
Skarmory has less than half Blissey's HP, and many things like Stone Edges and Close Combats bust through it even if they have few boosts. You can have +6 Special Attack and STAB and a 95 base power move and still not even 2HKO minimum HP, minimum Special Defense Blissey.
I sincerely doubt that, considering my good IV Blissey was once beaten by a Choice Specs Alakazam's Focus Blast. . . :(
(It had 148 HP EVs, I think, but had no Special Defense EVs).
Focus Blast is 120 base power and is super-effective so it's really 240 base power coming from something with 135 base special attack that's boosted, that explains why. It depends on how much special attack the attacker actually has. For instance, if you're talking about a +6 SAtk Luvdisc using the 95 base power surf, or something much more powerful using surf to say the least.
Porygon-Z can OHKO using Hyper Beam after a Nasty Plot if it has apaptabillity.
A Blaze, Petaya, Sunny Day Fire Blast from a Timid Charizard can 2HKO a +Sp.Def natured Blissey with a 31 Sp.Def IV and HP IV with max Sp.Def EVs....just saying. Also, a Nasty Plotted Porygon-Z could take down Blissey...
Like you say it's only in pretty extreme situations Blissey will be defeated with special moves. There really isn't a physical equivalent to her. But I wouldn't say that every Pokémon would need a way to deal with Blissey. Every team needs a way, not every member on it.
So I think most special attacker will be just fine without physical moves as long as you have a safe counter for Blissey on your team.
So I think most special attacker will be just fine without physical moves as long as you have a safe counter for Blissey on your team.
Lol, and people on GameFAQ's don't believe me that Porygon-Z can take down Blissey. All I get there is "ZOMG, Bliss would cripple Porygon-Z (Toxic, Twave) and then outstall with Softboiled!" After a Nasty Plot, Porygon-Z 2HKO's Bliss with Tri-Attack. After two Nasty Plot's, it's a OHKO.
Choice Specs 'Zam can 2HKO Bliss with Focus Blast (Not 100% of the time though). Special Lucario w/Choice Specs (Most of the time) or Life Orb (Some of the time) can 2HKO Bliss as well.
Choice Specs 'Zam can 2HKO Bliss with Focus Blast (Not 100% of the time though). Special Lucario w/Choice Specs (Most of the time) or Life Orb (Some of the time) can 2HKO Bliss as well.
According to my calculations, a Modest Max Special Attack Alakazam would do 50-59% on that spread. So factoring in Leftovers, you're looking at a 3HKO. If your Blissey was running max HP, it would almost definately be a 3HKO (48-57).
In answer to the original question, I think that special attackers require physical moves a lot less than they did last gen. Whereas in ADV, we may have seen Alakazam sending out Focus Punch off his crappy 50 Atk, this gen he'll be a lot more partial to Focus Blast. Same could be said for Gengar, albeit in a lesser capacity.
None, actually. Skarmory was neutral to Rock and Fighting and resistant to everything else on the physical side (2x to flying, steel, normal and ghost, 4x to bug, immune to poison and ground). His only weaknesses (Fire and Electric) were special-only back then. In the 3d gen yeah Skarmory was the defensive equivalent of Blissey (at least the one that came closer). Hence the whole ''skarmbliss +4 pokés'' teams and the McGar twisted Skarmbliss-slayer set.
Best physical wall this gen has to be Dusknoir, imho. Huge def + WoW is quite a lot. Oh and fighting immunity. It also can Pain Split + the right elemental punch to finish off pretty much any physical attacker.
Levitating Bronzong's good too, as his only two waknesses (Ground and Fire) are nailed down to only Fire with Levitate, and Flare Blitz/Fire Punch are really not that common except in obvious users, and because of that can be outpredicted. Although prediction is true for all pokémon, compare that to Skarmory, which is badly hurt by Thunderbolt and Flamethrower, which are learnable by way more pokémon than Flare Blitz and Fire Punch (and Fire Fang, to a lesser extent.)
Skarmory is still useable as a physical wall, except that he must be wary of Infernape, who just murders him with Swords Danced Flare Drive, and Tyranitar, who can use Skarmory as Dragon Dance fodder, and impale it with Stone Edge, which with a critical hit, will OHKO. P.S: Dusknoir can do Skarm's job better, and more.
Blissey, on the other side of things, is still a "good" special wall. When I mean good, I mean the fact that Nasty Plot Adaptive Porygon-Z can 2KO her with Tri Attack after one NP and its a OHKO if it crits. Blissey now requires CM and/or Light Screen to catch up with Porygon-Z.
And there will always be Focus Blast to further kick that fat pink blob back to hell.
Is it just me, or is Mixed Sweeper Infernape just seeming to get better and better?
Blissey, on the other side of things, is still a "good" special wall. When I mean good, I mean the fact that Nasty Plot Adaptive Porygon-Z can 2KO her with Tri Attack after one NP and its a OHKO if it crits. Blissey now requires CM and/or Light Screen to catch up with Porygon-Z.
And there will always be Focus Blast to further kick that fat pink blob back to hell.
Is it just me, or is Mixed Sweeper Infernape just seeming to get better and better?
Haha, well there's a good explanation for this y'know. Physical moves are more universal because a lot of them are also TMs.
A TM/HM is a Machine, and basically the pokemon is learning the move from some kind of instructor on TV or something, and it seems a hell of a lot easier for a pokemon to learn how to punch another pokemon right in the gut from a TM/HM than how to magically summon some kind of "Ominous Wind", hence why there's so many more Physical TM/HM than special ones...
Just sayin' y'know... -.-
....... Except that Porygon Z and Infernape are Glass Cannons. PZ is dead after it kills Blissey. Also, Dusknoir like the free switch in to Hyper Beam. Infernape is ridiculously hard to get in and Blissey can switch.
On Focus Blast, not even Deoxys F can always achieve the 2HKO on Blissey:
756 SAtk Focus Blast (Modest Max SAtk Specs Deoxys F) does 45~53% damage to 714 HP and 405 SDef Blissey (Max, Max+).
That's the strongest Focus Blast in the game. Don't forget the 70% hit rate. Why do you think people forgo Thunder and Blizzard, the awful accuracy.
Lucario is the Fighting type with the highest SAtk at 115 Base.
541 SAtk (Specs Lucario's Max SAtk) STAB'd Focus Blast on 714 HP and 405 SDef Blissey does 49~57%.
That's the strongest Focus Blast in the game, and it's not even a guarenteed 2HKO on Blissey.
So, in conclusion:
Focus Blast =/= teh end-all counter to Blissey
But defensive Calm Minders, aka Slowbro and Jirachi, can beat all variants of Blissey, except CMBliss. Against CMBliss they get into a very long stall war. Jirachi will probably beat Blissey unless it runs Flamethrower and Slowbro has a pretty fair chance of both winning and losing, unless Blissey doesn't carry TBolt, Shadow Ball, or HP Grass (but all variants of a real CMBLiss carry at least one of those three).
To sum this junk up, the only Special Attackers that can get past Blissey and attempt to sweep are CMers who have a reliable recovery move and are not weak to any of Blissey's Special Attacks, which include, standard moves in bold:
Water Pulse
Ice Beam / Blizzard
HP Grass / Grass Knot / Solarbeam (Used in ADV ubers on Groudon teams)
Thunderbolt / Thunder
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Flamethrower / Fire Blast (Used in ADV Ubers on Groudon teams)
HP Fight / Focus Blast
That list is extensive. So even Jirachi is not guarenteed a sweep, the Blissey may be running Flamethrower. I'm not sure about Calm Mind Lucario, Blissey can hit it SE with Flamethrower, but it has STAB Aura Sphere to trash Blissey with. But then again, it lacks a reliable recovery move.
I did not intend on this tl;dr post.
On Focus Blast, not even Deoxys F can always achieve the 2HKO on Blissey:
756 SAtk Focus Blast (Modest Max SAtk Specs Deoxys F) does 45~53% damage to 714 HP and 405 SDef Blissey (Max, Max+).
That's the strongest Focus Blast in the game. Don't forget the 70% hit rate. Why do you think people forgo Thunder and Blizzard, the awful accuracy.
Lucario is the Fighting type with the highest SAtk at 115 Base.
541 SAtk (Specs Lucario's Max SAtk) STAB'd Focus Blast on 714 HP and 405 SDef Blissey does 49~57%.
That's the strongest Focus Blast in the game, and it's not even a guarenteed 2HKO on Blissey.
So, in conclusion:
Focus Blast =/= teh end-all counter to Blissey
But defensive Calm Minders, aka Slowbro and Jirachi, can beat all variants of Blissey, except CMBliss. Against CMBliss they get into a very long stall war. Jirachi will probably beat Blissey unless it runs Flamethrower and Slowbro has a pretty fair chance of both winning and losing, unless Blissey doesn't carry TBolt, Shadow Ball, or HP Grass (but all variants of a real CMBLiss carry at least one of those three).
To sum this junk up, the only Special Attackers that can get past Blissey and attempt to sweep are CMers who have a reliable recovery move and are not weak to any of Blissey's Special Attacks, which include, standard moves in bold:
Water Pulse
Ice Beam / Blizzard
HP Grass / Grass Knot / Solarbeam (Used in ADV ubers on Groudon teams)
Thunderbolt / Thunder
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Flamethrower / Fire Blast (Used in ADV Ubers on Groudon teams)
HP Fight / Focus Blast
That list is extensive. So even Jirachi is not guarenteed a sweep, the Blissey may be running Flamethrower. I'm not sure about Calm Mind Lucario, Blissey can hit it SE with Flamethrower, but it has STAB Aura Sphere to trash Blissey with. But then again, it lacks a reliable recovery move.
I did not intend on this tl;dr post.
In conclusion, Focus Blast is sure as hell a lot better than anything else its users would be able to do to Blissey and at least prevents it from coming in at a meager 40-50% and still being able to wall.
Blissey will have Flamethrower about 0% of the time. You rarely enough see Tbolt, let alone anything else besides the standard Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. As long as you're not gambling your Scizor out there, Flamethrower is a non-issue even as a threat.
Blissey will have Flamethrower about 0% of the time. You rarely enough see Tbolt, let alone anything else besides the standard Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. As long as you're not gambling your Scizor out there, Flamethrower is a non-issue even as a threat.
Except for the fact that CM Bliss is the only Blissey that can shut down Manaphy entirely. And it's the only way Blissey can beat 101 Subs and CM besides using Psych Up. All the moves I listed are for CM Blissey. The standard is BoltBeam. This means people will eventually realize the threat Manaphy poses and switch to CM Bliss. Also, you will see Flamethrower on every CM Bliss included in a Sunny Day team. What it hits SE is more useful (at least in ubers) than BoltBeam.
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but not too many Blissey are max/max+ Hp/SDef these days, right? They forego the nature and 252 EVs to Defense to have a better chance of surviving a physical fighting move (and strong physical moves in general). I really don't see any Blissey foregoing defense completely just to survive two Aura Spheres or Focus Blasts. There are like 4-5 pokémon in Standard that use these moves.
Porygon-Z doesn't need Hyper Beam to take down Blissey. If PZ has 1 Nasty Plot, it 2HKO's Bliss with Tri-Attack. Bliss may be able to outstall, but you just Nasty Plot again (like I would anyways) then it's a OHKO. After that, if Dusknoir switch's in on Tri-Attack, Ice Beam is a OHKO (2HKO if you don't Nasty Plot twice) If you're running a Dark Pulse/HP Fighting Porygon-Z, Dusknoir is done no matter what.
Infernape on the other hand, has a bigger problem. Life Orb'd, a Nasty Plot'd Flamethrower is only a 2HKO to Dusknoir, and Dusknoir can easily Pain Split that away, then KO Infernape with Shadow Sneak.
BTW, all the calculations in this post were based on a max HP, max SpDef Dusknoir. So 405 spdef, 294 HP.
Tri-Attack doesn't work fast enough against CM Bliss and it can't OHKO Light Screen Blissey. CM Bliss can CM fast enough to not be OHKO'd by PZ. It can reach 2 CMs in the time it takes PZ to max out it's SAtk. PZ attacks, it CMs preventing the kill. I'm not sure what happens after this, though. It only takes a +SDef Nature, 20 HP EVS, and 60 SDef EVs for Blissey to survive NP'd Hyper Beam from PZ (Metalkid Calc).
About Dusknoir, I selectively forgot that Dark Pulse existed. It was only mentioned as a way to absorb Hyper Beam.
Lol, alright. After running this through Misty's damage calc on mIRC, a +6 SpAtk Porygon-Z still has a chance at OHKO'ing CMBliss even after 2 CM's. The next turn would be a definate KO.
To sum it up, a smart Porygon-Z player vrs. a smart Blissey player is a 50/50 battle. A smart Porygon-Z player vrs. dumb Blissey player is a win to the Porygon-Z user. A dumb Porygon-Z user vrs. anyone who know's anything about Blissey is a win for the Blissey user.
To sum it up, a smart Porygon-Z player vrs. a smart Blissey player is a 50/50 battle. A smart Porygon-Z player vrs. dumb Blissey player is a win to the Porygon-Z user. A dumb Porygon-Z user vrs. anyone who know's anything about Blissey is a win for the Blissey user.