-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
- Status
Bisharp can't 6-0 trick room teams but has a positive match up against most TR setters. It may not OHKO many of them but still can pose a big enough threat to redirect a fake out/double target so your partner can get a free turn or just deal a lot of damage to any pokemon to put it in KO range for a partner or sucker punch. It exerts an offensive pressure which many trick room teams don't like to face. Especially since it bypasses their speed control with priority sucker punch that hits many trick room sweepers hard.
I think Bisharp is fine where it is right now as it fits the description of "checking one team archetype well" and it is not a liability in many matchups as intimidate is present on almost every team and Bisharp exerts pressure on teams carrying intimidate. Therefore I believe it should remain in tier 1.5.
I think Bisharp is fine where it is right now as it fits the description of "checking one team archetype well" and it is not a liability in many matchups as intimidate is present on almost every team and Bisharp exerts pressure on teams carrying intimidate. Therefore I believe it should remain in tier 1.5.
Sort of a weird nomination here but going for it: Nominating Suicune Tier 2 to Tier 2' (for lack of a better name)
The description of the section currently containing Suicune says
The description of the section currently containing Suicune says
This implies that Suicune only fits a specific team style, since no one will argue that it requires support, as a support pokemon itself. The only "team style" that you could argue Suicune fits is Tailwind, which Stratos has informed us is not and should not be considered a team archetype. The other Tier 2 description fits it much better:
It's not a slappable mon, no one is saying that it always as great matchups, but it does do well to provide speed control, it has nice access to Snarl, and it's good for taking hits while providing adequate offensive presence.
[11:28] #Stratos:+ tr isn't bisharps best matchup
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-257931813
bisharp: not a fullroom check
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-257931813
bisharp: not a fullroom check
moods
Banned deucer.
dude had you read any of the previous coments lol
could you tell us pls why the mon that can supesuperefect every common tr settrr doesnt count as a check?
yea that replay is a terrible example
Stratos got into a bad trick room situation thx to what most likely was an earth power roll, and he couldn't switch out his bisharp... I don't see how that affects the matchup that bisharp usually can have against trick room (one which makes it nigh possible to set it a second time)
Stratos got into a bad trick room situation thx to what most likely was an earth power roll, and he couldn't switch out his bisharp... I don't see how that affects the matchup that bisharp usually can have against trick room (one which makes it nigh possible to set it a second time)
first of all it wasn't a roll >.>
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 200-236 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
secondly I made loads of bad plays and mispredictions (such as not considering sucker on tflame, not using sucker to dodge the sucker on eruption turn, wrong fake out turn 1) and I was miss ev'ed on my abomasnow. I was also using a old jelly set which couldn't take two diamond storms.
like if I hadn't made those misplays or not fucked up my sets it could've been as bad as a 5-0 or a 4-0
despite this trick room didn't get completely roflstomped.
What did he do wrong? Did he play the match poorly?
matchup? he pm'ed me telling me to bring this specific team and knew all my sets
he didn't get haxed at all
I didn't even need the second set that match, which is how it usually goes vs hyper offense in my experience. Unless your opponent absolutely predicts your leads and your sets you get enough momentum off of the first set to establish the game.
like if you don't think that replay captures the matchup well then explain what differentiates it from any other match
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 200-236 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
secondly I made loads of bad plays and mispredictions (such as not considering sucker on tflame, not using sucker to dodge the sucker on eruption turn, wrong fake out turn 1) and I was miss ev'ed on my abomasnow. I was also using a old jelly set which couldn't take two diamond storms.
like if I hadn't made those misplays or not fucked up my sets it could've been as bad as a 5-0 or a 4-0
despite this trick room didn't get completely roflstomped.
What did he do wrong? Did he play the match poorly?
matchup? he pm'ed me telling me to bring this specific team and knew all my sets
he didn't get haxed at all
I didn't even need the second set that match, which is how it usually goes vs hyper offense in my experience. Unless your opponent absolutely predicts your leads and your sets you get enough momentum off of the first set to establish the game.
like if you don't think that replay captures the matchup well then explain what differentiates it from any other match
He played poorly
Stratos
Banned deucer.
VOTE RESULTS
Votes this time are shown in the order Laga, me, TOTEM, Arcticblast. finally is kill, and he is thus being replaced by kamikaze17!
image credits to totem
Mega-Altaria UR => Tier 3:
Zapdos Tier 3 => Tier 2:
Raikou Tier 3 => Tier 2:
Kyurem-B Tier 1.5 => Tier 1:
Terrakion Tier 1.5 => Tier 2:
Latios Tier 1.5 => Tier 2:
Rotom-W Tier 1 => Tier 1.5:
Mega-Manectric Tier 2 => Tier 3/UR:
Sylveon Tier 2 => Tier 3:
Mega Charizard X UR => Tier 3:
Aromatisse UR => Tier 3:
Cresselia Tier 1 => Tier 1.5:
Hoopa-U
Electabuzz UR => Tier 3:
Magmar UR => Tier 3:
Hariyama UR => Tier 3:
Mega-Mawile Tier 3 => Tier 2:
Thundurus Tier 1.5 => Tier 1:
Mega-Aerodactyl UR => Tier 3:
So the final changes are:
Mega Manectric Tier 2 => Tier 3
Cresselia Tier 1 => Tier 1.5
Hoopa-U => Tier 1.5
Mega Charizard X UR => Tier 3
Mega Aerodactyl UR => Tier 3
there were like four or five 2/2 splits in which case i sided with the status quo
Votes this time are shown in the order Laga, me, TOTEM, Arcticblast. finally is kill, and he is thus being replaced by kamikaze17!
image credits to totem
Mega-Altaria UR => Tier 3:
No, I've tried using this so many times and just have not found it viable as special hyper voice or physical dd sweeper, all it's rolls are just filled much better by other more popular pokemon. It is extremely niche, if that at all.
No. I'd rather use a dragon or fairy that doesnt hit like a bitch
no it never fucking does anything, special is just a worse garde phys is worse than zard x
no, really weak even with a boost, defensive typing really isn't as great as people think (Dragon/Fairy just compounds weaknesses honestly)
No. I'd rather use a dragon or fairy that doesnt hit like a bitch
no it never fucking does anything, special is just a worse garde phys is worse than zard x
no, really weak even with a boost, defensive typing really isn't as great as people think (Dragon/Fairy just compounds weaknesses honestly)
Zapdos Tier 3 => Tier 2:
No. Both of these have viable niches to be sometimes (albeit rarely) used over Thundurus, but they definitely do not have consistently better matchups than Thundy to be tier 2.
No. me irl about zapdos. yeah sometimes it can live the entire game with roost but it has a ton of bad matchups and a lot of teams don't even want a poke that can live the whole game while doing very little like that; it's often a momentum suck.
i like it but it's tier 3, don't let stratos convince you that it's his image he's posting, it's mine
yes, access to Tailwind and Roost makes it a better fit for some teams than bulky Thundurus, and it has higher bulk than that to boot
No. me irl about zapdos. yeah sometimes it can live the entire game with roost but it has a ton of bad matchups and a lot of teams don't even want a poke that can live the whole game while doing very little like that; it's often a momentum suck.
i like it but it's tier 3, don't let stratos convince you that it's his image he's posting, it's mine
yes, access to Tailwind and Roost makes it a better fit for some teams than bulky Thundurus, and it has higher bulk than that to boot
Raikou Tier 3 => Tier 2:
No. Both of these have viable niches to be sometimes (albeit rarely) used over Thundurus, but they definitely do not have consistently better matchups than Thundy to be tier 2.
No. It's really niche since it doesn't hit as hard as thundurus/zapdos. it's got a different (not really better) lando-t matchup which can work on teams which are rock weak and it's not as bad vs cube with snarl (but thund can just use flash cannon), so it has some merits, but it doesn't deserve tier 2
i used this the other day and it was frustratingly weak sick HP ice that can't OHKO lando t, nice access is a good meme though
Snarl may be nice but it's rarely better than Thund/Zap
No. It's really niche since it doesn't hit as hard as thundurus/zapdos. it's got a different (not really better) lando-t matchup which can work on teams which are rock weak and it's not as bad vs cube with snarl (but thund can just use flash cannon), so it has some merits, but it doesn't deserve tier 2
i used this the other day and it was frustratingly weak sick HP ice that can't OHKO lando t, nice access is a good meme though
Snarl may be nice but it's rarely better than Thund/Zap
Kyurem-B Tier 1.5 => Tier 1:
Abstain, I am never weak to it because I literally haven't used a full on bulky team for about a year.
No. Sure it's a win button vs rain and defense but it's also pretty damn useless in some matchups which is 1.5 to a T.
good but bad vs some teams, p cash though y'all should experiment w/ some mixed sets or GOGGLES
Sub is super great but it has a difficult matchup vs entire archetypes sometimes, and it only works so well against balance because balance always uses mons that lose to it rather than cool things like Jirachi
No. Sure it's a win button vs rain and defense but it's also pretty damn useless in some matchups which is 1.5 to a T.
good but bad vs some teams, p cash though y'all should experiment w/ some mixed sets or GOGGLES
Sub is super great but it has a difficult matchup vs entire archetypes sometimes, and it only works so well against balance because balance always uses mons that lose to it rather than cool things like Jirachi
Terrakion Tier 1.5 => Tier 2:
Yes, has lost a shitload of it's viability. Rock Slide is no longer especially god tier with everyone prepping so hard for it because of underlying flinch fear. Also Fighting moves are generally countered naturally with flying types (hi skymin and burd) and aegislash being on the rise (or at least definitely at the top). It also loses 1v1 to Keldeo, the honestly superior muskedeer atm.
Abstain. Still a very threatening pokemon but is beaten by basically everything faster than it
UNF UNF i rly like terrak and it fits w/ a lot of my builds it's more threatening than theorymon would suggest
nah Terrakion is still a baller, best Kang check in the game too
Abstain. Still a very threatening pokemon but is beaten by basically everything faster than it
UNF UNF i rly like terrak and it fits w/ a lot of my builds it's more threatening than theorymon would suggest
nah Terrakion is still a baller, best Kang check in the game too
Latios Tier 1.5 => Tier 2:
No, Latios has so much better of a speed tier than Hydreigon and Kyurem-B while magically having similar special bulk; the more crucial bulk for these dragons, as they're basically built to exploit FWG to get kills (or a sub in cubes case).
No. me irl on latios. i already made a big post on it so
abstain bcus idk :^)
Scarf Ice Beam is a shit set but pretty much any other Latios is good (yes even Tailwind)
No. me irl on latios. i already made a big post on it so
abstain bcus idk :^)
Scarf Ice Beam is a shit set but pretty much any other Latios is good (yes even Tailwind)
Rotom-W Tier 1 => Tier 1.5:
Definitely, this thing has been very underwhelming lately. Huge popularity with at least one dragon per team and skymin being on the loose as well. It's typing may be sick, but it's lack of bulk (50 base HP) doesn't exactly complement this flawlessy...
Yes. It has bad 4mss cuz it wants wisp/twave/protect/tbolt/hpump and it can only run four; without wisp it loses terribly to amoonguss and without twave it's pretty bad vs offense. Also it's got like the literal worst kyurem-b matchup in the meta. I'd seriously say it belongs in 1 still if it weren't for the Amoonguss and Kyurem-b matchups, because it's a consistently useful support Pokemon, but giving free turns against those two beasts hurts it too much.
twave washtom keeps it 1 for me
still one of the most splashable Pokemon in the entire metagame. No
Yes. It has bad 4mss cuz it wants wisp/twave/protect/tbolt/hpump and it can only run four; without wisp it loses terribly to amoonguss and without twave it's pretty bad vs offense. Also it's got like the literal worst kyurem-b matchup in the meta. I'd seriously say it belongs in 1 still if it weren't for the Amoonguss and Kyurem-b matchups, because it's a consistently useful support Pokemon, but giving free turns against those two beasts hurts it too much.
twave washtom keeps it 1 for me
still one of the most splashable Pokemon in the entire metagame. No
Mega-Manectric Tier 2 => Tier 3/UR:
UR. Honestly, this thing no longer has a niche over raikou + good mega, raikou alrady being in the shadow of thundy. I haven't experienced a good reason to use Mega Manectric in the current metagame state except not getting flinched by shaymin-s.
Tier 3. Its still got fantastic speed tier/ability/movepool it's just kind of frail. I used it on a team with Blaziken and the pair put in a lot of work.
tier 3 i like mane idk
Yes, totally outclassed by literally every other Electric
Tier 3. Its still got fantastic speed tier/ability/movepool it's just kind of frail. I used it on a team with Blaziken and the pair put in a lot of work.
tier 3 i like mane idk
Yes, totally outclassed by literally every other Electric
Sylveon Tier 2 => Tier 3:
Yes. I don't have anything to add, everyone should know why this is a yes by now with all the public hate this thing has deserved and received.
No. Fairy's still good and Sylv's the only way to do it without a mega.
this is t2 for sure sylv is a real cleaner vs some teams
Yeah. Sylveon seriously isn't what it used to be; Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir are better choices even when considering that Sylveon doesn't use up the Mega slot, and Aegislash is becoming more and more prominent. Sylveon's also just too slow for this metagame, and if you try to throw up Trick Room it still loses to Amoonguss and exacerbates your Bisharp weakness.
No. Fairy's still good and Sylv's the only way to do it without a mega.
this is t2 for sure sylv is a real cleaner vs some teams
Yeah. Sylveon seriously isn't what it used to be; Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir are better choices even when considering that Sylveon doesn't use up the Mega slot, and Aegislash is becoming more and more prominent. Sylveon's also just too slow for this metagame, and if you try to throw up Trick Room it still loses to Amoonguss and exacerbates your Bisharp weakness.
Mega Charizard X UR => Tier 3:
Yes, have tried it out very recently. It sometimes has a ridiculously good matchup added to the surprise factor, but otherwise it's really not that overwhelming.
Abstain, it legitimately has swept teams for me before on my zard x team but it's just such a non-factor in the meta that it would feel weird to rank it. I've also never had problems against Zard X despite having faced it a dozen times or so
love zard x, it's actually viable outside of just DD too, Tailwind is super good it wants another moveslot to donk tranner but oh well whack it in 3
abstain
Abstain, it legitimately has swept teams for me before on my zard x team but it's just such a non-factor in the meta that it would feel weird to rank it. I've also never had problems against Zard X despite having faced it a dozen times or so
love zard x, it's actually viable outside of just DD too, Tailwind is super good it wants another moveslot to donk tranner but oh well whack it in 3
abstain
Aromatisse UR => Tier 3:
I'd rather use mental herb anything.
No, see what fangame said about it.
idk this mon v well lellers
I'd rather just take the Taunt than use Aromatisse tbh. If check thinks Cress is bad I'd hate to hear what he has to say about this thing lol
No, see what fangame said about it.
idk this mon v well lellers
I'd rather just take the Taunt than use Aromatisse tbh. If check thinks Cress is bad I'd hate to hear what he has to say about this thing lol
Cresselia Tier 1 => Tier 1.5:
Definitely not tier 1 material anymore. Hoopa came along, and ttar is getting usage. Calm mind doesn't have the ridic matchups it used to have.
Yes. Honestly would be fine with it falling even further. Do-nothing mon. Offense set is still ok, but not remotely worthy of 1 rank, and CM is usually useless.
people know how to beat it, most of the diverse bw sets suck in xy ＲＥＴＵＲＮ ＯＦ ＥＢＥＬＴ
abstain
Yes. Honestly would be fine with it falling even further. Do-nothing mon. Offense set is still ok, but not remotely worthy of 1 rank, and CM is usually useless.
people know how to beat it, most of the diverse bw sets suck in xy ＲＥＴＵＲＮ ＯＦ ＥＢＥＬＴ
abstain
Hoopa-U
Tier 1.5: This thing is so strong. It is so strong. The only thing keeping it from tier 1 is how hilariously easy it is to revenge kill tbh. What I really like about it is how it can break almost anything, yet still take a strong hit or two avg ones on the special side.
1.5. really threatening in some circumstances, especially good late-game situations, but really awkward to use thanks its shitty typing.
Matchup reliant, but always threatening under tr
1.5; great mon but has some really bad matchups and needs some sort of field condition to be most effective
1.5. really threatening in some circumstances, especially good late-game situations, but really awkward to use thanks its shitty typing.
Matchup reliant, but always threatening under tr
1.5; great mon but has some really bad matchups and needs some sort of field condition to be most effective
Electabuzz UR => Tier 3:
Abstain, i have not used this in forever.
No.
my shit teams usually beat this thing lellers
lol no
No.
my shit teams usually beat this thing lellers
lol no
Magmar UR => Tier 3:
Abstain, I'm seriously confused, and have only seen this work in mizu's hands... like a year ago.
No. Maybe has a niche on TR as a Skymin counter.
see above
see above
No. Maybe has a niche on TR as a Skymin counter.
see above
see above
Hariyama UR => Tier 3:
Agreed. Hariyama is like a stronger scrafty without intimidate. It doesn't have bad abilities tho, just intimidate would be nice.
Yes. TR Fake Outer that doesn't lose to bisharp (scrafty) and isnt mega. Also more powerful than Scrafty/Shitmontop
hari is p good, cool looking hands too
yeah Hariyama's seriously good; actually the strongest Fighting-type in the meta with the appropriate boosting item because it can afford to run Adamant (MGallade can eat a dick)
Yes. TR Fake Outer that doesn't lose to bisharp (scrafty) and isnt mega. Also more powerful than Scrafty/Shitmontop
hari is p good, cool looking hands too
yeah Hariyama's seriously good; actually the strongest Fighting-type in the meta with the appropriate boosting item because it can afford to run Adamant (MGallade can eat a dick)
Mega-Mawile Tier 3 => Tier 2:
Yes, if you get an ok matchup and play it well, it can work wonders for you.
LOL mawile is lucky that other ppl put it in 3, this thing still deserves Tier 20.
it's tier 3
abstain
LOL mawile is lucky that other ppl put it in 3, this thing still deserves Tier 20.
it's tier 3
abstain
Thundurus Tier 1.5 => Tier 1:
complete abstain, this thing is ridiculously good on ladder but slightly underwhelming against good tour players.
No. good vs offense, useless vs more defensive teams
if you could run the offensive and defensive spreads on a single team it'd be good but you cant
mmmmmmmmmmmm still struggles with Landorus-T despite often carrying HP Ice, and most teams have a lot of ways around it. I'd say no
No. good vs offense, useless vs more defensive teams
if you could run the offensive and defensive spreads on a single team it'd be good but you cant
mmmmmmmmmmmm still struggles with Landorus-T despite often carrying HP Ice, and most teams have a lot of ways around it. I'd say no
Mega-Aerodactyl UR => Tier 3:
Writing tier 2 because i srsly think so. This mon is so good in skymin keld burd meta it's not even funny. Bad matchup against bulkier mons can be helped easily with breakers like keldeo / hoopa-u.
Yes. Similar pokemon to mega manectric but with rockslide brokenflinches
it gained traction recently and it's decent tbh
does super well versus HO so yeah
Yes. Similar pokemon to mega manectric but with rockslide brokenflinches
it gained traction recently and it's decent tbh
does super well versus HO so yeah
So the final changes are:
Mega Manectric Tier 2 => Tier 3
Cresselia Tier 1 => Tier 1.5
Hoopa-U => Tier 1.5
Mega Charizard X UR => Tier 3
Mega Aerodactyl UR => Tier 3
there were like four or five 2/2 splits in which case i sided with the status quo
Last edited:
Was there a reason that this didn't get voted on?
If I missed some sort of deadline then no problem, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't forgotten.
Can I ask the quick question of why virizion is where it is? Im not saying it deserves a rise however its movepool, especially stab hits a lot of this tier pretty well and its speed is really solid too since few high ranked mons without scarf will outspeed it. Like I said im not nomming I was just curious on this particular mon and figured this was the place to ask.
doesn't OHKO Kangaskhan without a boosting item, and if you use Life Orb you miss out on taking 2 Heatran Heat Waves with 8hp (assuming LO recoil). A fast grass sounds nice, but Virizion is kinda hindered by being both slower and hit s/e by Mega Diancie. It is also a fighting type that isn't supa great vs. Kyurem-B & faces competition for that slot from Keldeo.
I mean... LO Virizion with Leaf Blade, Close Combat, Stone Edge, Protect beats 4 of rank 1 mons cleanly. It also is a decently solid answer to Lando-T as it resists Edgequake. And against Diancie, it lives a Moonblast and KOs back with Leaf Blade while also discouraging its use of Diamond Storm. And it's immune to Amoonguss's shenanigans, so if it has Giga Drain instead of Sludge Bomb, you might as well say it beats Amoonguss. It's a pretty decent anti-meta option.
To me it's a classic tier 2 pokemon, since it's still held back against all TR teams and all VenuSun teams.
The problem is that Virizion can't really safely switch into any of the mons you mentioned. And the ones it can switch into safely (Amoonguss and Lando) it can barely do any damage to.
-1 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 84-100 (25.4 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 127-150 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm not gonna bother putting up calcs for Amoonguss, because that just turns into a stallfest.
Basically, the thing is that besides the things it hits super-effectively, Virizion doesn't do much damage. Like, if you're using one of the good musketeers (i.e. Terrakion and Keldeo), Hydro Pump or Close Combat will chunk anything that doesn't resist the move in question. Virizion's Close Combat, on the other hand, hits for mediocre damage at best. It's just not a great mon- it really fits in more with tier 3.
-1 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 84-100 (25.4 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 127-150 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm not gonna bother putting up calcs for Amoonguss, because that just turns into a stallfest.
Basically, the thing is that besides the things it hits super-effectively, Virizion doesn't do much damage. Like, if you're using one of the good musketeers (i.e. Terrakion and Keldeo), Hydro Pump or Close Combat will chunk anything that doesn't resist the move in question. Virizion's Close Combat, on the other hand, hits for mediocre damage at best. It's just not a great mon- it really fits in more with tier 3.
If you really want to look at it from a 1v1 matchups perspective, virizion only beats two of those.
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Mega Charizard Y: 499-593 (138.6 - 164.7%) - ohko, great chance even if intimidated
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 398-471 (113 - 133.8%) - ohko
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Rotom-W: 252-299 (82.8 - 98.3%) - not an ohko, but still a clear win
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 328-385 (101.2 - 118.8%) - ohko
and if you lose speed tie to Keld - 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 234-277 (72.4 - 85.7%)
So no. It's definitely at least 4. The set uses Life Orb... Like I said in my original post. It deals plenty of damage to win.
- Status