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Dream World Suspect 1: Blaziken (Banned)

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Tobes, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Why are you calling me out here? I made it very clear what my intentions were when I stated that on IRC. Also, you bring up a similar argument of being forced to run Pursuit with Chandelure around. "but this is the definition of a meta." Forcing people to run a small group of Pokemon is not only a metagame. It is over-centralization, and I thought that was implied.
  2. Danilo

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    Firstly, lets talk about Blaziken, if you want to talk about Chandelure, I suggest that you counter my argument in the Genera Metagame thread because no one has yet.

    Onto the actual argument, running a "small group" of Pokemon to check a major threat is a metagame. I listed plenty of Pokemon that check Blaziken. Not being able to use whatever you want is not overcentralization. If there was say only one switch in to Blaziken and not running this only switch in to Blaziken then this would be overcentralization because you're FORCED to run said mon. No one is forcing you to do anything other than checking a major part of the metagame, which everyone must do if they want to be successful.
  3. SJCrew

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    I actually agree with Shrang. The problem I've had with Blaziken was him setting up Swords Dance and sweeping my team. Baton Pass is complete overkill and ruins the chance you thought you had at winning the match.

    Also, four layers of hazards + several non-checks is not an argument. Dragonite barely even deals half his HP in damage with Extremspeed, and Breloom's Mach Punch on anything but Life Orb does 47.8% - 56.8%. They're last resorts, not checks. He has plenty of time to kill before then. Also, did you read the posts that include Air Balloon, which invalidate Spikes? You argue that Baton Pass is the problem, but if it was really as easy to put him into range of priority attacks as you said, he won't be able to Baton Pass those boosts out. What really happens in the matches you use/play against him?
  4. Omicron

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    Keep in mind that Blaziken was banned in BW OU even with other huge threats present such as Garchomp, Thundurus, and Excadrill still around. It didn't even have Baton Pass and yet it still got booted to Ubers. Just some food for thought.
  5. Danilo

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    Firstly, I said the fact that Blaziken takes good damage from every form of hazards makes him easier to revenge kill. If Blaziken is running Air Ballon then this argument is obviously negated but not all Blaziken run Air Ballon and this extremely specific scenario doesn't prove that Baton Pass isn't the only thing that makes Blaziken broken.

    Secondly, how are the mons i listed non-checks? Jellicent resists Blazikens STABS and is bulky, same is true about Slowbro, Tentacruel, and Dragonite. These seems like completely legitimate checks to me.

    Finally, what happens when I play Blaziken is I wall it Slowbro and Blaziken is not a problem anymore, unless it has Baton Pass. Unfortunately, if my opponent runs Chandelure then it's possible that I'll lose Slowbro. Luckily I have Ditto, a nearly catchall revenge killer, that discourages competent players from setting up and destroys incompetent players for setting up.

    Oh, and in addition, I agree that Air Ballon is like icing on the cake that's thrown in your face when you're playing against Blaziken. Air Ballon makes Blaziken harder to revenge kill but that doesn't affect the fact that you can still wall Blaziken with the mons I have previously listed.
  6. SJCrew

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    Dragonite is not a very good check because it's OHKOed by a +2 Hi Jump Kick after Stealth Rock damage. The same applies to Salamence and Gyarados, who even have Intimdate to cushion the blow. The onsite 252/240 Def Bold Tentacruel is OHKOed by a +2 LO HJK after Stealth Rock damage (81.9% - 96.4%). Breloom is just not a check on any level.
  7. The Reptile

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    Everything on that list gets 2hko'd by +2 LO Flareblitz outside of sun. (except for Slowbro and Dragonite if it has Multiscale up, which it most likely won't due to SR. Air Balloon gives Jellicent the chance to be 3hko'd. So pretty much only Slowbro and sometimes Jellicent). And I'm not even factoring in Stealth Rock damage with my calcs.
  8. SJCrew

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    Being 2HKOed at +2 doesn't mean anything when they can kill Blaziken before he gets the second hit. Also, Gliscor is actually OHKOed by +2 Flare Blitz. (96.6% - 113.8%)

    Calcs for Taylor:

    +1 HJK on Mence: 77.6% - 91.5%
    +1 HJK on Gyarados: 78.2% - 92.4%
    +2 Shadow Claw on Utility Counter Jellicent: 95% - 111.9%
  9. Taylor

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    Did I read after Intimidate, Hi Jump Kick faints Gyarados and Salamence at 75% after factoring Stealth Rock? I doubt this very much, but this would be partly the reason why we are contemplating banning Blaziken. Ultimately it goes to show you can prepare for Blaziken in Dream World, except when it Baton Passes to a new threat which is fresh and ready to fight with those stat boosts.

    It isn't practical to rely on Slowbro in a metagame where it struggles with a handful of suspects; it was boarderline in Standard OU because Excadrill and Gachomp woud 2HKO Slowbro, possible OHKO depending on the spreads and hazard damage prior to switching in.

    Like Jellicent, physically our "mush" has a real tough time fending off what it can before it's forced to faint, maybe at the expense of getting WoW / Scald burn before falling. This isn't enough as a Blaziken counter because while Shadow Claw fails to OHKO, there's a potential risk with Baton Pass after going to the trouble to check it nicely.

    It's like countering thin air: "Hello Sand Veil"
  10. complete legitimacy

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    I've been using Blaziken on a classic dual screens hyper offense team, with five setup sweepers hitting all on the physical side. From my experiences, Blaziken is practically unstoppable with screens up. Think of all the traditional checks to Blaziken, like Jellicent, Slowbro, Dragonite, and even Chandelure to an extent. Now look at how many can actually take on Blaziken behind dual screens and Stealth Rock, which Deoxys-S is ridiculously consistent at providing. The answer is none. Yeah, so Jellicent is immune to Hi Jump Kick and resists Flare Blitz. It can't touch Blaziken behind screens, so what's stopping me from setting up another Swords Dance and powering through with Flare Blitz? There is literally nothing that can stop Blaziken behind screens, with the only exception being Excadrill in sand. This isn't even taking into account Baton Pass, which would be especially dangerous on this type of team.
  11. Lee

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    all Adamant 252

    -1 LO HJK vs 4/0 Gyarados = 34.94% - 41.27%
    +0 LO HJK vs 4/0 Gyarados = 52.41% - 61.75%
    +1 LO HJK vs 4/0 Gyarados = 78.61% - 92.47%
    +2 LO HJK vs 4/0 Gyarados = 104.82% - 123.19%

    -1 LO HJK vs 252/0 Gyarados = 29.44% - 34.77%
    +0 LO HJK vs 252/0 Gyarados = 44.16% - 52.03%
    +1 LO HJK vs 252/0 Gyarados = 66.24% - 77.92%
    +2 LO HJK vs 252/0 Gyarados = 88.32% - 103.81%

    - LO HJK vs 252/252+ Gyarados = 20.30% - 24.11%
    +0 LO HJK vs 252/252+ Gyarados = 30.46% - 35.79%
    +1 LO HJK vs 252/252+ Gyarados = 45.69% - 53.81%
    +2 LO HJK vs 252/252+ Gyarados = 60.91% - 71.57%

    +1 LO Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Gyarados = 93.91% - 110.66%

    Not running calcs for Salamence because his bulk is virtually identical to Gyarados (95/80 vs 95/79)
  12. shrang

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    +1 LO Hi Jump Kick vs 0/0 Salamence: 71.00% - 83.69%. You have a 2 in 3 shot at OHKOing. I guess you won't OHKO them if they significant invest in bulk, I guess, but they aren't exactly safe.
  13. Tomahawk

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    Jellicent actually isn't that reliable of a counter either. +2 Flare Blitz in the sun does 91% - 107% to Jellicent, which means it's always KOed after Stealth Rock. Slowbro is really the only reliable Blaziken counter, as at +2 and with Stealth Rock and preferable a layer of Spikes, nothing is a safe counter. Dragonite falls to it after Stealth Rock, Chandelure is KOed by an unboosted Flare Blitz in the sun, Gyarados and Salamence fall to Hi Jump Kick after Stealth Rock, Quagsire isn't KOed by a +2 Hi Jump Kick thanks to Unaware, but it 2HKOes on the switchin so that's not exactly reliable. Latias is KOed by Flare Blitz in the sun / Hi Jump Kick after Stealth Rock, Hippowdon is KOed by +2 Hi Jump Kick after a layer of Spikes, Tentacruel is always KOed by a +2 Flare Blitz in the sun, while +2 Hi Jump Kick KOes after Stealth Rock and Spikes. On the other hand, revenge killing is near-impossible as well with Speed Boost and Protect.
  14. The Reptile

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    I know, that's why I said it. c:

    (Although they could come in after you kill something, but trading 1 pokemon and crippling another just to kill one is funny. That, and baton pass)
  15. -Tsunami-

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    Baton Pass just makes Blaziken ridiculous. One second you're fighting a Blaziken, the next you're fighting the equivalent of a Smash Pass-boosted Jirachi. It completely takes Blaziken to the next level. The main problem with it is Blaziken is ridiculously threatening enough as it is, and it's coverage is superb. There's no way to know if a Blaziken has Baton Pass beforehand without sacrificing Pokemon.
  16. jrrrrrrr

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    I just wanted to write this out while I have 20 mins because idk if I can be at the whole discussion. This post is going to look way bigger than it is because I wanted to split each thing into its own section.

    Ok, to clarify, we are not determining if Blaziken is OU or Uber as a 50/50 choice. It is OU by default. With that said, I think Blaziken must remain OU. I don't think it's breaking the metagame from either a personal or objective point of view. It's just a pretty good mon.

    /me gets out rocking chair and blanket
    When suspect testing first started we had a metagame where Garchomp and Gengar were floating around 50% usage for several months. 50%. This caused Blissey, Deoxys-S, Lucario, Metagross, Heatran and Tyranitar to completely define the metagame by a wide margin. You could not win without at least some of these pokemon to check Garchomp and switch into Gengar (the most reliable Garchomp check because Scizor didn't have Bullet Punch). Now let's see what DW stats look like:

    | 13 | Infernape | 4504 | 8.765% | 3765 | 9.043% |
    | 14 | Venusaur | 4121 | 8.019% | 3267 | 7.847% |
    | 15 | Blaziken | 4088 | 7.955% | 3165 | 7.602% |

    Blaziken isn't even the most popular Fire/Fighting animal starter pokemon! I wonder why that is, if Blaziken is really breaking the metagame? It doesn't do much better in 1337 stats either

    Show Hide
    | 11 | Deoxys-S | 426 | 17.960% | 382 | 19.894% |
    | 12 | Garchomp | 424 | 17.875% | 316 | 16.457% |
    | 13 | Dragonite | 385 | 16.231% | 274 | 14.270% |
    | 14 | Blaziken | 368 | 15.514% | 248 | 12.916% |
    | 15 | Skarmory | 361 | 15.219% | 322 | 16.769% |
    | 16 | Conkeldurr | 286 | 12.057% | 228 | 11.874% |
    | 17 | Manaphy | 272 | 11.467% | 220 | 11.457% |

    Usage stats aren't the sole determining factor of something breaking a metagame, but they can't be completely ignored. There are plenty of reasons why Blaziken wasn't banned when the original Smogon DW tier list was made, and not much has really changed since then. Usage stats reflect this. Blaziken's usage has been consistent, which means that there's no miracle set that was just discovered that is breaking the metagame either. People have gotten used to it.

    Blaziken is terrible defensively. Fire/Fighting is poor defensive typing. It doesn't help that 8 of the top 11 most used pokemon can OHKO Blaziken with their standard sets, and the other 3 can cripple it. Flare Blitz, Life Orb, Sandstorm and HJK misses drain massive amounts of HP. Common priority attacks nuke it. This means you're basically playing 6 on 5 until something on your team dies to give Blaziken a chance to come in. Even if you switch into a resisted move like an Ice Beam, you are still in revenge kill territory from most common pokemon in the tier. Blaziken has a big list of legitimate checks and counters in DW OU:

    Show Hide
    Dragonite
    Breloom (esp Fight Gem and Adamant LO)
    Excadrill
    Infernape
    Conkledurr
    Jellicent
    Slowbro
    Lati@s
    some Tentacruel
    Gliscor if no SD + sun
    CB Scizor if you've used Flare Blitz
    Flash Fire Chandelure (lol)
    Thunder Wave anything (esp Thundurus)
    Unaware Quagsire

    with others, of course, depending on movesets


    The metagame is simply not set up for Blaziken to have consistent success at a high level, which is what defines the word "broken" in a competitive gaming forum. Blaziken has massive 4-moveslot syndrome, where no matter what you choose you will always have to overcome a huge obstacle to sweep. It also needs support to sweep effectively. Stealth Rock and Sunlight are essential to its damage calculations. And there's no evidence that the metagame would change significantly if Blaziken were removed, which is a telltale sign if something is truly breaking it.

    re:
    The Baton Pass set has critical flaws from my experience. Firstly, it's not obscenely fast until it hits +2 Speed, which takes 2 turns, and even at that point you are still in revenge kill territory from several common pokemon. If you use Protect to guarantee you a Speed Boost, you give up an attack or Swords Dance...basically neutering Blaziken's offensive potential. It is not a reliable Baton Passer because it is so frail defensively. Even resisted attacks 2hko its standard sets.

    I'm not convinced that Blaziken is even close to being the best pokemon in DW, not convinced it is breaking the metagame, and definitely not convinced that it's worthy of our first ban.

    Are you going to use this same argument if Garchomp Thundurus Manaphy and Excadrill are nominated as suspects? I get what you're saying but I don't think we should be trying to emulate OU's tier list, DW is our own tier and we need discussions about our unique metagame.
  17. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Wobbuffet was ~#45 when he got banned in DPP, just saying.

    The problem is that is there anything that makes Blaziken any less broken than it was in standard? No matter how much you want to paint DW OU as different, it is still largely the same metagame, with a few additions and since we're curious, drop-downs. Round 3 standard OU was actually quite similar, similar enough so that whatever happened in Round 3 should be quite relevant to what we have now. Like I said before, what have we gained in DW that makes Blaziken any more manageable? Breloom is pretty much it. Manaphy and Keldeo can't stop it, neither can Genesect.
  18. jrrrrrrr

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    So what? You can't dismiss the entire claim with one extreme counterexample. Wobbuffet was only OU in DP because it was unbanned on a whim by Colin (now Cathy) who ran the only server anyone used. I also made it clear that usage stats are not the ONLY judge of whether something is worth a ban, but they certainly are legitimate arguments since they are the only objective source we have here.

    It was also banned by a suspect testing system that the site got rid of, just saying.

    I would think Blaziken would be used more if it was actually broken, because that is the nature of sweepers who are so good that they break the game. Remember, the default position is OU and I can only vote to ban if I think it is breaking the metagame. The fact that it isn't doing this on a statistical basis suggests that it has flaws, which I laid out right after. There's a reason our tiers are usage based. To me it's obvious why Blaziken is only #14 in usage in the 1337+ stats, the supposed stats of players who are winning the most (including my own battles using Blaziken for testing purposes so those numbers might even be inflated!). It should be higher if it is taking the metagame and breaking it into a million pieces, since the 1337+ players obviously wouldn't be able to beat it without using it themselves. IF it was broken

    I can't understand why Blaziken is the first suspect when it's not even close to being the best, like no mon ever was

    Excadrill, Thundurus, Garchomp, you dismiss Manaphy and Keldeo but thats just 2 more common pokemon that Blaziken can't switch into. You also seem to assume Blaziken is always at +2 +1 when its actually kinda hard to do that.
  19. Pocket

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    fyi, Excadrill and Thundurus were banned from OU when they were #11 and #13 in usage (here), so highlighting Blaziken's reasonably high usage doesn't help you here.

    Isn't Blaziken's frailty issue also mitigated by Dual Screens provided by Deoxys-S?
  20. Conflict

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    Dual Screens shouldnt even be taken into consideration because with screens every dangerous sweeper is bulky as fuck.

    Like - name me a counter to SDLucario behind Screens. Exactly there is none because SDLucario can now take a hit and then kill its counter. (ResttalkGyara might work once if it uses Roar but Resttalk-Gyara is pretty bad in BW).



    Anyways id like if you guys adhere to Smogons (old) policy of banning the least amount of Pokemons possible.
    So i guess im taking jrrrrrrr's side here?
  21. Taylor

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    Excadrill and Thundurus prevent Deoxys-S from dominating the lead position, and those two help prevent "Dual Screen" offense with a team full of suspects from sweeping through all in its path.

    With Chandelure in the metagame, it should be common knowledge to anyone aiming to get something out of Dream World that they shouldn't half-ass build teams, throw in a random Slowbro/Gliscor and then complain Blaziken is broken because their counter was effectively removed before it had chance to switch into our suspect.

    For clarity, there's a mixture of reasons as to where we have issues with Blaziken. While calculations suggest it is incredibly powerful, that applies to many other Dream World Pokemon. The difference is Blaziken is assisted by one of the most crucial elements of competitive battling: boosting its Speed for whilst maintaining momentum by attacking/setting up further.

    Jrrrrr pointed out earlier in this thread (like I had in the main DST chat this morning), that while Baton Pass may be the sole purpose for determining Blaziken's tier position, what is the opponent doing inbetween this phase of play? Fact is, you need to Swords Dance and survive an attack before Baton Pass becomes universally problematic.
  22. jap killa

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    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Blaziken (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 67.77% - 79.7%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    That's a resisted hit on one of the most physically defensive mons in the metagame. if a sweeper can do that much to a pokemon that is designed to counter it after only one turn of setup, then we have a problem. This thing can singlehandedly 6-0 offensive teams with sun support, due to it's ability to make choice scarfs pointless. But seriously, if a pokemon designated to counter blaziken gets 2HKOed by it then we have a problem. The only true counter i see is flash fire chandelure, being immune to both of it's STABs, and this is just a huge waste of potential. I say definately ban it.
  23. Pocket

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    Actually, that's rather unimpressive... Blaziken can't kill Slowbro after a Swords Dance, LO, and Sun boost? A 2HKO after a Swords Dance is rather pointless, since it gives Blaziken's counter a chance to cripple / kill it. Terrakion can pretty much OHKO the entire metagame after a Swords Dance - THAT'S incredible.
  24. ssbbm

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    except it has a *small* chance to ohko with sr and spikes (and this is assuming no prior damage, although regenerator does mitigate that to an extent). additionally, terrakion can't boost speed.

    im not saying that blaziken should be banned, but it is impossible to say that ohkoing slowbro after sr and spikes with a nve physical move isn't impressive, especially if slowbro is your supposed counter
  25. SJCrew

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    I find it rather silly that you just compared Blaziken to Terrakion when Blaziken is the all around better Pokemon, but I feel the need to point out that Blaziken actually beats a lot more than Terrakion does at +2 with only one set and one item, which would pretty much be all of OU. You named one target Blaziken couldn't beat at +2, now let me name several Terrakion can't: Gliscor (without Rock Gem), Tangrowth, that very same Slowbro, and defensive Celebi (without X-Scissor).

    Then we get Speed Boost. It's almost unfair how badly Blaziken trumps the sweeping ability of some of the next best.

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