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Dream World Suspect 1: Blaziken (Banned)

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Tobes, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    After plenty of dicussion with council members, it has been decided that Dream World will be holding its first suspect evaluation. Blaziken is an incredibly threatening physical sweeper. Its incredible offensive coverage, devastatingly powerful STAB moves, and Speed Boost all make it a difficult physical sweeper to handle. But what has really pushed it over the edge, in the eyes of a number of council members, is its access to Baton Pass in Dream World. Blaziken is unique from SmashPassers in that is a devastating sweeper in its own right, and punishes mispredictions far more than something like Smeargle could. Its ability to threaten a sweep at one minute and then pass to something like Garchomp or Gyarados the next makes it incredibly difficult to deal with effectively, and Baton Pass takes so little adjustment to Blaziken's moveset that it is hard to distinguish whether or not it is running the move or is merely a stand-alone sweeper. It can be checked with priority, Ditto, and the like, but these are all situational answers and can be completely useless if Blaziken passes to an appropriate teammate. For these reasons the council will submit votes on Blaziken in one week, on Friday, April 20th. Like in other councils, these votes will be in paragraph form. In the meantime, everyone is welcome to debate here on the merits of banning Blaziken. Though you will not be able to vote, it is still quite possible to sway council members to your point of view. Please put plenty of thought and effort into your posts here, and above all, keep it civil. Have at it!

    This thread is for discussion about Blaziken only. Do not bring suggestions of suspecting other Pokemon or complaints that Pokemon X is not being suspect into this thread. Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted.

    Omi Edit: If you do not support your arguments / claims with sufficient evidence, your post will be deleted and possibly infracted. Intelligent discussion only, please.
  2. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Banning Blaziken is very good for the metagame. It's tough to stop when common Choice Scarf users can't even beat it because it gets a Speed boost every turn, and it can skyrocket its Attack in one turn. Additionally, it poses a double threat. With Baton Pass at its disposal, Blaziken can run an effective passing set, especially with dual screens. Its usual counters such as Gliscor cannot KO it due to Air Balloon, and in the sun, Blaziken OHKOes Gliscor with Flare Blitz at +2. What's more? Skarmory, one of the best walls in the game, is weak to Blaziken's STAB.

    The only ways I have been able to keep it in check are using Jellicent, making Excadrill go in when Blaziken uses Protect on the first turn it's out (an extremely unreliable strategy), or simply allowing Hi Jump Kick to put Blaziken into KO range from Breloom. However, these strategies are unreliable at best, and forcing people to run a select group of Pokemon is simply not healthy. Sadly, I think banning it is the only way to proceed. What happens if it passes boosts to Jirachi or Garchomp? GG. What happens if you allow it to get to +2 / +2? GG. It's simply too hard to stop without overspecialization.
  3. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
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    Blaziken is such a powerhouse in the current Dream World Metagame, so much so that I think it warrants a ban. After a Swords Dance Blaziken can be very hard to stop, aswell as it's speed increasing every turn making it very hard to revenge. There have been countless times where I have been 6-3 or 6-2 up and been swept by Blaziken. It can perform well on it's own, aswell as with other team members by passing boosts everywhere.
    Blaziken boasts great offensive STABs, only commonly resisted by Chandelure, Dragonite, Jellicent and Slowbro; none of which appreciate a +2 Flare Blitz / Hi Jump Kick. Blaziken's most common set also utilizes Air Balloon well, a combination of Protect, Swords Dance, Protect allows Blaziken to outspeed Jolly Excadrill under Sand at +3, being able to single handedly decimate opposing teams.
    The most effective way I have of stopping Blaziken from wrecking havoc is Slowbro. I can Thunder Wave / Psychic Blaziken as it Sword Dances, however this doesn't mean a whole lot in the situation Blaziken passes it boosts to another member, paving the way to sweep. I have also tested Focus Sash among members of my team, allowing them to take a hit and remove Blaziken, however this is not working 100% of the time. When it gets to the point where I have to have 2 or 3 checks on my team just for one Pokemon, I think it's time that Pokemon needs to be gone.
  4. Nachos

    Nachos Good player alert!
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    Alright, Blaziken is probably the most devastating sweeper in DW OU right now. The only attacking moves it's using are Flare Blitz and Hi Jump Kick, and so it's walled by Slowbro and Jellicent quite easily. However, both of these Pokemon do absolutely nothing outside of beating Blaziken, and are never seen, likely because they're set up bait and because Chandelure can trap and KO them, albeit at not max health.

    After a Swords Dance, pretty much everything is OHKOed except for things that resist its STAB moves, which isn't many. It's faster than almost everything after 2 boosts, and it likely will get 2 speed boosts due to forcing a switch on something, or setting up on a scarfed Chandelure locked on HP:Ice or something. Nothing can outspeed it except for Excadrill (who can't risk switching in). That leaves priority moves. Breloom will do a lot, Mach Punch + Flare Blitz recoil + Sandstorm will hurt Blaziken badly. Outside of Breloom though, the only other truly common priority moves are Extremespeed from Dragonite and Thunder Wave from Thundurus. Azumarill is nowhere to be seen. Dragonite is a good counter, especially if Multiscale is up. With Thundurus, you're hoping on a 25% chance, otherwise Thundurus is dead, although you've neutralised Blaziken so the it's probably a good trade off. It can't switch into FB or HJK anyway, so it's a 2for1 deal.

    I don't have much to say about Baton Pass... The Baton Pass set, if successful, can pretty much guarantee you a sweep, especially if you go to something immune to Thundurus's Thunder Wave like Garchomp. As it's so fast, it will be getting off the pass so you're guessing which sweeper it'll be going to. If you guess wrong it's probably gg.

    Of course, you have to look at the other side.. Blaziken isn't switching into anything without getting wrecked, and the Baton Pass can get knocked pretty bad due to a lack of Protect/2 moves on most sets. Its moves, while strong, have nasty side effects. Blaziken is likely to be dead after it uses Flare Blitz on something with high health, especially if its taken any damage on the switchin, or has been hit by a priority move. You could use HJK, but then you'd be risking Blaziken entirely, and might miss out on a kill. It's hit hard by every priority except for Bullet Punch. In addition, Flare Blitz is neutralised in rain, so Blaziken has to rely on the shaky HJK for everything, although there isn't much used on rain teams that isn't destroyed by a +2 HJK.. It also has a 25% chance of being neutralised by Thundurus if the player is desperate.

    It does have counters and checks too. Slowbro and Jellicent aren't used much, but Tentacruel (as an added bonus is usually in rain) and Dragonite definitely are. Chandelure can take a +2 Flare Blitz and KO with Shadow Ball. Finally, it is almost entirely devastated by Ditto, who only has to watch out for Blaziken Protecting on the HJK. Flare Blitz will probably KO anyway, but at the expense of a massive chunk of health.

    Blaziken is the most threatening sweeper in the game. After a single turn or two, it can annihilate the entire tier with its huge Base Powered STAB moves, and while they do have nasty drawbacks, most of the time it'll be taking out a Pokemon or two. It has one commonly used counter that is somewhat constantly under threat from the strong Ground moves in the metagame, and two good checks, both of which are worn down by Stealth Rock. It can't switch in on anything safely and that is a problem, and also fears pretty much every priority move. However it can switch out anyway so it doesn't really matter. Dragonite and Breloom could even possibly find themselves getting trapped by Chandelure which is usually used with Blaziken. It's easy to get a Baton Pass off to something else which could devastate a team quite easy. Overall I think that Blaziken is the definition of glass cannon, it threatens everything after a turn or two, and even despite it's poor defenses meaning it can only come in after something dies, it's getting at the very minimum a kill, probably more if the opponent has no priority sweepers or Excadrill. Even then you can switch to something else. I'm very conservative when it comes to tiering, but Blaziken is something that needs to meet the banhammer.
  5. Seed Bomb

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    I agree with Harsha, Nachos and Jimbon, Blaziken does need to be banned from DW. Blaziken is soo overpowered and it can set up and sweep you in a blink of an eye. Whether it be bulk up, swords dance, or hone claws, blaziken makes an excellent Baton Passer. You almost cant go wrong with blaziken, as it doesnt take a lot of brains to use. Its extremely overpowered, and when its sent out late game, you can pretty much say gg. And sometimes, if you arent prepared for it, lead blaze can really put a big dent in your team.
    At +2 att, and speed with jolly nature, it can pretty much out speed anything in the DW metagame (except for jolly excadrill) and have enough power too take out / severely damage most of its "counters" and with some blazikens being mixed, with HP ice you cant pretty much say Bye Bye to threats like gliscor. Anyway, too sum things up, I think blaziken should be banned from DW. Blaziken is way too powerful to be in DW and i think that the DW metagame will be a lot more stable with it gone.
  6. Deinosaur

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    Hahaha Nachos got replied to. x)

    Anyway, Blaziken is incredibly strong this gen, but in my opinion, we can't really ban it for it's attacking abilities alone. It's probably the type of team I use (rain), but I've never truly had problems with it. It's a great mon with Speed Boost, Swords Dance, and strong STABs, but it can be worn down and taken out by priority, and straight up beaten if it doesn't get an SD.

    The problem with Blaziken is Baton Pass. It sweeps a couple mons, then if it's low on health, it can pass to Garchomp or Terrakion. Facing a +2/+2 Garchomp is fucking horrible. Unless you're running defensive Skarmory or Bronzong, you lose. I think someone could probably put together a team showing off Blaziken and get this sucker put away for good.
  7. Prex

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    Despite a few other names in DW that strike fear into the heart of an opponent upon Team Preview, Blaziken has to be the most frightening. Forget about actually sending it out, the mind games it creates are enough to cause an opponent to play erroneously, enough to the point whatever strategy they had planned crumbles beneath their feet. I personally haven't had much of a problem with The Flash's chicken offspring, but that's only due to running a team overspecialized to killing it. Even then, I've been swept quite easily by it after Exca dies or it gets to the point of outspeeding Scarfchomp. I rarely get lucky and have out Techniloom already at +2 when it comes in. Also, Ken with Air Ballon basically fucks any attempt Exca had at killing it.

    Take this for example: Opponent sends out Blaziken on something it can force out, in my case lets use Deo-S since that's happened before. My Exca is still alive and Sand is up. In the turn I switch to Exca it SD's (or protects, but why a Protect against Deo-S idk, most deo I see run superpower), that's +1 speed. I need to break the Ballon to EQ it, but since it used SD it now protects this turn... that's +2 speed. Finally, an opening! But wait, Rock Slide is 37.42% - 44.37% max, 49.67% - 56.62% with SR up. At that point of the second turn Exca being in, it either fails to ko or is destroyed by one of Ken's STABs. If it gets to the third turn and Exca is still alive, it no longer matters. Ken can now outspeed it and most everything else in existence, and is +2 in Atk.
    I mean, sure you can get ballsy and SD on the turn it SD's. But you're fucked if 1. SR isn't up 2. Flinchhax doesn't kick in. And because Ken has, uh, teammates, and because Rapid Spinners exist, betting on getting a perfectly timed SD and praying Rocks are up is a hell of a lot to bet on. To make things worse, nearly everything I've said is extremely situational. Not everyone and their mother carries Exca, or him along with his partner in crime, Garchomp. I have taken down Blaziken with Keldeo... but that's probably the most unreliable way to kill it, as an unboosted HJK is 96.6% - 114.2%.... which is an 81.25% chance Keldeo doesn't live to fire off a Pump. Forget if you're not running Pump, or it misses. And forget Keldy if it kills Ken, it's basically dead weight after that hit. ...Annd chances are if you're sending out Keldeo against it, it's already either raped half your team or you had nothing better to send out in the first place. Again, all of this is situational. In general, Blaziken is going to come out and do whatever the hell it wants, when it wants, how it wants. SD & Protect as needed, and then either sweep with one of the best STAB coverages in the game, or Pass it's ungodly boosts turning just about any poke that gets them into a nearly unstoppable monster.

    As Jimbon mentioned the only pokes that resist its STABs don't like taking them boosted; and... I've actually seen Ken get +4 Atk fairly easily, a number of times, so forget Type Resists once that point has been reached. It's killing whatever it wants.

    And Baton Pass... forget it. Between BP & Air Ballon, formerly any reliable way to kill it is flushed down the drain. You got it nearly crippled? It just passes +2Atk/+2Spe, or some other inane boosted level of those two stats (+4atk/+3spe ;_;) to a teammate waiting in the wings (garchomp anyone?) , gg.

    I could go on for days with this, but while Blaziken is nearly unstoppably broken in its own right... Baton Pass is what takes "nearly" completely out of the equation. You could all but mangle Blaziken... doesn't matter, it passes its boosts to a new, healthy Sweeper and all your work is for nothing as this new threat rips apart your Blaziken-battered team like a hot knife on butter.

    If there's a #1 threat in DW, it's Blaziken.
    If there's one poke who's banishment would improve the overall health & balance of the meta, it's Blaziken.

    There are a few things against Ken too, Nachos has listed them quite nicely, better than I ever could of. But, considering everything Blaziken can do offensively combined with BP, those Cons very well may just not exist in the first place.
    If Ken lacked Baton Pass, its shortcomings would be suffice to leave it where it is.
    But that isn't the case.

    All of this is just personal experience from facing it... but in this lowly user's opinion, Blaziken needs to go.
  8. Taylor

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    Blaziken is certainly worth of top spot for most effective sweeper individually, much like some of us considered Dragonite to be one time or another in Standard OU. When, of course, you aren't missing Hi Jump Kick or being outpredicted with Protect against inventive Tyranitar/Politoed.

    I really do not want to see Blaziken banned on the basis it "sweeps so easily" because that simply shows you aren't giving this metagame a fair amount of attention if you expect to get further up the ladder. It has nothing to do with Blaziken being uber in sun neither because while it is successful, it's a touch behind sand/rain.

    Blaziken is manable in Dream World because this metagame requires your imagination levels are on a high when it comes to team building, I find it is the Baton Pass set which is as easily executable as Shell Smash but on a threat which outshines any other user of Baton Pass for sure, is that extra factor which can throw you off guard. I just that find when you expect Hi Jump Kick and you're looking to Protect, or you're forcing its HP down thanks to residual damage/priority, Blaziken can Baton Pass those boosts to a different sweeper to pose that "easy stat-up" all over again.

    It concerns me where the metagame would end up if Blaziken is banned because sun won't see much usage unless you could abuse Chandelure to full effect (which someone said Blaziken guarantees a kill, if played smartly so can Chandelure) in your weather team too, for what it may be worth. Predictably lots of users will wind up facing typical sand/rain teams and moan about Garchomp/Excadrill/Thundurus/Keldeo/Manaphy.

    As invidiual suspects, they are still likely to contrast with peoples' opinions on what the suspect's main purpose is: not so much as look for a broken Pokemon here and there which marginally stands out as oppose to looking for ways to improve the metagame and the direction we want to see it go.

    Blaziken was useful for outspeeding an array of the most used Pokemon in the tier to accomodate for fast sweepers.
  9. Hawkstar

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    Bolded my replies.
  10. Taylor

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    Does Blaziken sweep so easily? My answer would be "no", and I've the Dream World experience to support this after being at the top end of the ladder for most of this phase and taking necessary action to deal with it soundly. When Blaziken passes those Speed Boosts elsewhere, then we have a problem.

    Clearly we have several suspects which are not likely to recieve happy praises during our suspect tests due to how they pose a huge threat to so many different teams, yet we overlook some of the metagame's most important aspects of competitive play: prediction and team building.

    Will we eventually ban Genesect because rain teams fear Thunderbolt and U-turn to help with controlling the weather? The direction after determing Blaziken's status would wind up an extended version of OU, as predictably people will move on to Garchomp, Excadrill and Chandelure before we know it.

    Speaking of Garchomp, are we not considering how such Pokemon, which can be utilized as a check to thrive in the opponent's sand team, a benefit to Dream World? It's much like using Excadrill on your hail team, ensuring you have a solid Rapin Spin user along with checking their own Excadrill and sand? They're useful for expanding our team building credentials and gives us more of a variety when competing in this tier.

    I will attest that when Blaziken gets going, hit or miss, it's destructively powerful when "on the ball" so to speak. Baton Pass gives it a whole new dimension, which is why I wholeheartedly agree on Blaziken becomming the number one suspect.

    Regardless, I just don't want us to dive right into seeing Blaziken booted out of Dream World before agreeing it is "Uber" without question. For now, I am half and half and feel it's imperative to message some other council members, holding private conversations; for my own sake. I wish to gather the council's opinion before making my own count.
  11. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    I just want to quell some fears about slippery slope. I am not going to suspect things on a whim, and things like Genesect will never be Uber as long as I run Dream World.

    Now, as for Blaziken: I agree with the sentiment that is reasonably manageable as a sweeper. I probably would not be suspecting it if it weren't for Baton Pass. Since we at the moment have an even number of council members, I myself will not be voting this round, but I might as well post my thoughts. Blaziken creates a lot of high-pressure scenarios. It draws in certain Pokemon quite easily; Gliscor, Breloom, and the like. And normally these can handle it to an acceptable extent. But Baton Pass changes all of that. It allows Blaziken to abuse the high-pressure situations it creates to a ridiculous extent. It's far more than a simple 50/50 guess for the opponent to make. If they don't pick up on the threat of a Baton Pass, suddenly your Gliscor isn't facing a +2 / +1 Blaziken. It's now facing a +2 / +1 Gyarados, who's set to Dragon Dance up and not only put itself out of Choice Scarfer range, but also go for a clean sweep. Blaziken opens up too many doors and gives an unreasonable advantage to its user, and is in its own right a devastating sweeper. For these reasons, I (reluctantly) think Blaziken should be Uber.
  12. Omicron

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    I too think that we should try to ban as little as possible to preserve the metagame; however, Blaziken has proven to be far too powerful. Nevermind its sweeping capabilities, Baton Pass is really what makes it over-the-top dangerous. With Pokemon such as Deoxys-S who can easily guarantee Dual Screens and perhaps even some hazards to go along with it, Blaziken has no problem setting up and passing its boosts to another sweeper. Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave won't even come in handy in this situation either, as Blaziken can simply Baton Pass to a Pokemon with an Electric-type immunity, such as Garchomp. Blaziken is already relatively difficult to deal with without using Baton Pass, but with it, it just becomes overpowered. At this point, I'm definitely considering a ban for it. It's healthier for the metagame that way in all honesty.
  13. V0x

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    I don't want to rehash like everything so I'll keep my bit short. At first i didnt really think Blaziken was broken because i found numerous instances of it just being underwhelming: dying early, not really being scary. However, Blaziken has the /potential/ to be that threatening, as demonstrated by people who do use it. Furthermore, if you for some reason fail to pass due to some kind of risk, you still have a probably +2 Attack Blaziken to deal with, which not can comfortably deal with.
  14. Deinosaur

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    After playing around with Blaziken some more, I regret to say that I think Blaziken needs to be banned. As it has been said before, Baton Pass is just too powerful. Gliscor becomes easy setup fodder with Air Balloon, then a simple BP to Moxie Gyarados and its GG. In order to keep a good, balanced metagame, pokemon that are too powerful need to be removed. In my opinion, Blaziken is just too powerful for the current metagame.
  15. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    One thing I'd like to bring to everyone's attention is this. Blaziken was banned by a supermajority in standard OU. What has changed in DW that makes Blaziken any less broken now? I can't really see much, to be honest. You gained one extra check in Breloom (which can't even OHKO Blaziken, mind you). Manaphy can't stop it, neither can Chandelure. On the other hand, pretty much everything that has a chance of stopping Blaziken (Slowbro, Jellicent, Slowking), are easily trapped and taken out by Chandelure. Even resists like Dragonite are just flat-out OHKOed by +2 HJK. To completely seal the deal, you can use Baton Pass on Blaziken, so even if you can't get past check X, you can just easily pass to a mon that can. Think about Ninjask, but make it like 1000x better, since Blaziken can easily sweep by itself, can kill phazers if it needs. Honestly, Blaziken is most likely even more broken now in DW than when it got the boot back in round 3, so I really cannot see why we should even consider keeping it.
  16. Taylor

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    I don't want to bring any other suspects into this discussion but I felt Garchomp's Sand Veil was more disruptive to Dream World than Blaziken. First, Blaziken needs to survive one turn if it wants to pass Swords Dance boosts, which Garchomp can achieve much easier with the possibility of evading attacks when it is already bulkier than what you'd expect from an offensive Dragon-type.

    Breloom, Dragonite, Excadrill, Deoxys-S and even Blaziken (your Protect can be used catch out HJK or helps you outspeed their recepitant which one or two boosts) will check Blaziken. Where as Chandelure forces Blaziken to pass those boosts elsewhere, assuming they have Baton Pass to fall back on; otherwise Blaziken is trapped. It can't throw Fire-type moves around in rain and sand's residual damage makes it easier to kill. If Protect is successful two turns in a row, some of these Pokemon however are half-hearted checks if used in succession.

    There are lots of instances where I've found Sand Veil to be more disruptive in Dream World than Blaziken has been, but while I agree Blaziken is the strongest Pokemon in the tier, banishing said Pokemon will have consequences we need to consider for the sake of how the metagame will play after we ban it; notably Garchomp being exposed for its default trait unsettling every user who has it there to deal with, right there and then.
  17. The QWAZ

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    WI really disagree with banning Blaziken, of course it is very powerful when it sets up, the problem is actually being able to set up; back in standard OU where blissey, ferrothorn and chansey are very common it could come in SD on the switch and the proceed to decimate the opposing team, but in this meta-game where stall is nonexistent, thanks to chandy, blaziken cant really set up on many common pokemon without causing it to switch or risk being critically damaged, you could argue it can baton pass out, but passing +1 speed isn't very helpful.

    but lets say blaziken is at +2/+3, scarfers wont stop it, what can you do? if you have a breloom the problem is fixed because after some FB recoil mach punch is a clean OHKO, there is also the issue that both of blazikens moves are high risk, i have lost many a match because HJK misses or an untimely crit on flare blitz took me out, for example:
    +2 flare blitz vs 252/184 def impish gliscor : 74.01%- 87.57% (chance to OHKO after sr)

    now while that calc may seem to make the case that blaziken is to powerful, but think about it, blaziken would lose a third of its health from that one move, pushing you into mach punch range and you cant baton pass out because mach punch has priority.
    This is all i have to say on the matter, i thoroughly enjoy playing DW and i hope you take my thoughts into account when you make the final decision, but it looks like im the only anti ban supporter
  18. Omicron

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    It really doesn't matter how much recoil you take when you can OHKO bulky ass Pokemon such as Gliscor. Saying that Breloom can OHKO it after some recoil damage is completely irrelevant to Blaziken's battle prowess.
  19. The QWAZ

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    I used an offensive gliscor for that calc, a defensive one is 2hko'd, but answer this honestly how many times has a blaziken actually swept you? Not a late game clean up im talking about a full on sweep.
    I really dont think it is broken
  20. V0x

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    The thing is, and I believe I speak for most of those that think Blaziken is broken, is it has Baton Pass so it doesn't matter if Blaziken can't or can perform a clean, full sweep. As a sweeper /alone/ I don't think it's broken either.
  21. Omicron

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    Baton Pass is really the aspect that makes most of the council members think that Blaziken is broken. Without access to Baton Pass, it might not be such a huge threat.
  22. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    I've been playing a lot of Dream World OU recently, and I've come to the conclusion that Blaziken is not broken in the current metagame. He' honestly a lot more manageable that he was in regular OU, and that's because he requires a gigantic amount of prediction to use properly. Dream World OU, also, is very centered on hazards and Blaziken is weak to all three of them (well neutral to SR but 1/8 is still a lot). Blaziken also has to choose between two items: Air Balloon and Life Orb. The former is almost necessary to ensure a sweep, as Earthquake is the most common and most viable way to deal with Blaziken because it allows the firebrand to set up on Jolly Balloon Excadrill, which has been seeing increased usage recently. However, Life Orb is pretty much required to do sufficient damage, and Blaziken cannot run both. Life Orb is the most common option, but still Blaziken cannot break bulky Waters without some prior damage.

    The other problem is that Blaziken might be the hardest to set up sweeper in the game right now. Blaziken does not have a good defensive typing, that's a fact. He also doesn't have much bulk, so he's either taking a probably neutral attack in order to set up or hoping he can OHKO his opponent first. This presents a problem, as Blaziken has to decide between his four moves in order to win the matchup. Protecting facilitates a sweep but gives the opponent a free turn to prepare for the blazing beast, Swords Dance effectively guarantees a sweep, but means that Blaziken has to endure an attack in order to begin attacking back. Flare Blitz and Hi Jump Kick are powerful attacks, but both have downsides that can be fatal to Blaziken if he predicts incorrectly. Blaziken also takes way too much recoil damage when attacking, meaning that HJKing a Ghost or Flare Blitzing a Ferrothorn can cost the Blaziken user half its health and little overt advantage.

    Now, that's not enough right there to call Blaziken DW OU, because many banned Pokemon in the past have had similar problems. The most important thing to analyze here is that mispredicting with Blaziken usually results in losing Blaziken and failing to take an opponent down as well. Bulky Waters, at least the best ones, can take both a Flare Blitz and a Hi Jump Kick. Jellicent comes to mind here, not even falling to a +2 Life Orb Flare Blitz and OHKOing back with Surf or Scald.

    Blaziken is manageable by smart playing, and is one of the few Pokemon in Dream World OU that can be legitimately "played around" because of its recoil problem and inability to OHKO enough threats without a boost.

    Of course, Baton Pass is a major problem here as well. Again, Blaziken really should not be given the opportunity to Pass anything besides Speed boosts, as once you start fitting Baton Pass into a moveset then Blaziken starts getting four-moveslot syndrome to the max. Protect is vital to ensure the initial boost, Baton Pass is the crux of the set, Swords Dance is necessary to sweep, and the filler moveslot is usually not able to propose the dual threat of a sweep versus a Pass-sweep. Again, Blaziken is very kill-able and his two main sets (Sweeper and Baton Pass) share the same counters and have a hard time setting properly up.
  23. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Really? I can't see why Blaziken would be any less broken now in DW than in regular OU when he got kicked out in round 3. Remember, Excadrill, Thundurus, Deoxys-S and Garchomp were all allowed back then. The only extra thing you've really gotten that can check Blaziken is Breloom, who can't even kill a healthy Blaziken, while Chandelure traps it easily. Chandelure can also trap Jellicent and damage it heavily, as well as taking out Slowbro, while making sun more viable, and this makes Blaziken harder to stop. On top of that, Blaziken can now use Baton Pass, which is probably the most WTFBBQ thing ever. If anything, Blaziken is easily more broken now in DW than back in round 3, IMO.
  24. blaZofgold

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    Let's face it. Blaziken would be fine without Baton Pass. It's relatively easy to slam Blaziken with an EQ, Hydro Pump, Surf, Psychic, etc. and kill it. But Baton Pass? Now the ridiculous speed boosts aren't focused on Blaziken anymore. So to effectively counter Blaziken, you would have to consider the possibility of their ENTIRE team being at some +1/+2 speed level. Because Baton Pass makes it ridiculously easy to pull it off.

    Baton Pass makes Blaziken OP. Plain and simple.
  25. Danilo

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    Blaziken is broken, almost all of us agree on that. But, Baton Pass is really the only thing that makes Blaziken broken.

    Most people have been arguing that Blaziken just sweeps to easily and that it can't be revenge killed. Firstly, there are plenty of good checks to Blaziken in our tier. Dragonite, Tentacruel, Jellicent, Slowbro, and Gliscor outside of the sun are all viable Blaziken checks. Dragonite and Gliscor are fine options for offensive teams looking to take on Blaziken, while Jellicent, Slowbro, and Tentacruel are good options for more defensively oriented teams. Thus, there are certainly plenty of Pokemon that check Blaziken. If you run one of these Pokemon(or have some effective innovative way of dealing with Blaziken like bulky starmie), Blaziken won't sweep you(unless the guy your playing has Chandelure but that's a different story).
    How is running a select group of Pokemon unhealthy? This is a metagame, we used the Pokemon that check the big threats. There happens to be plenty of Pokemon that check Blaziken, and being forced to use them to prevent Blaziken from sweeping you is certainly not broken or overcentralizing. If there's say, only one or two viable Pokemon that beat Blaziken, then maybe you could say that Blaziken is unhealthy for the meta, but this is not the case.

    Secondly, the fact that it's difficult to revenge kill is mitigated by the fact that Blazikien takes good damage from every entry hazard, putting it at a point where a random Extremespeed or Mach Punch will take down Blaziken.

    The real problem is Baton Pass. You can run one of the mons I mentioned earlier but if you switch in your Tentacruel on as Blazikien SDs and passes the +2 Attack and + 1 Speed to something like Garchomp, your momentum is completely ruined, your forced to switch or sac Tentacruel, and Blaziken not only ignored your check but also made it set up bait for another mon. Baton Pass is solely what makes Blaziken broken.

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