Metagame Dual Wielding

#77
I looked quickly through some of the other posts on this thread but didn't see an answer, so here's two thoughts I had.

If a pokemon equips both a Z-Crystal and a Choice Item:
1. Will they be able to use their z move if they first use a move that is incompatible with their crystal?
2. If said pokemon uses its Z-move will they be locked into the move off which the Z-move was based?

Example:

Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Choice Band
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Stone Edge

In situation 1, KyuB uses Fusion Bolt and it's choice is now locked in. Will KyuB be able to use its Z-move now?

In situation 2, KyuB uses Subzero Slammer (based on Freeze Shock) is KyuB now locked into Freeze Shock or will it be able to then lock in a choice move?
 
#78
If KyuB uses Fusion Bolt, it should be able to then select Subzero Slammer. I think this would be similar if you were affected by Encore into like Toxic you could still use a Z-Move on a different move.
For situation 2, I think you'd be locked in Freeze Shock, as the Z-Move actually takes PP off Freeze Shock suggesting it's usage, meaning your locked into it.
 
#79
I'll edit in a sprite* later.

Archeops @ Firium Z
Ability: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Swords Dance
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Heat Wave

There's already few enough Pokemon that could take a Head Smash. Most of them are Steel-types and get heavily damaged or one-shot by Inferno Overdrive. Alternately, run Rockium Z for base 200 Continental Crush and laugh as you drop Hippowdons like it's going out of style.

*: No I won't.
 
#80
So im pretty excited for the meta being released soon, and one item that I think is being completely slept on is: metronome(Damage of moves used on consecutive turns is increased. Max 2x after 5 turns.)!!! so if ur specs/band, after 5 turns ur gonna be hitting at 3 times ur regular damage!!

Pairing metronome with choiced items honestly sounds scary af, cos like imagine an ability that boosts the power of moves used in succesion, and then pairing that with like specs or band, that would be busted af imo. Also, the best part is that ur opp will get so damn confused with damage rolls, so like they originally might think that they can roost stall you, and suddenly ur bopping them af and theyr like "wtf are these rolls" LOL.

Volcarona @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Metronome
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz
- U-turn

As for mons that can abuse this, well off the top of my head, i was thinking of like scarf volcarona with metronome as well. You can spam fiery dance to no end, and both metronome and the spa boosts are gonna really stack up that damage. Not to mention it gets giga drain for some nice spammable recovery, and uturn for great momentum.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Band
Ability: Metronome
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Another set that comes to mind is choice band metronome hoopa-u, cos like u cant stop hyperspace fury with protect, and when ur faced against hoopa ur never too sure what to switch in as it can be physical or special, so ur p much guaranteed to get like 2-3 turns which is gonna be some pretty scary damage ngl. It also gets drain punch for nice spammable recovery too, although i would normally just spam fury tbh.

Overall, i think metronome in general is gonna be pretty scary, especially when it can be paired with virtually any choiced item really effectively. IDK if its already been discussed, I havent seen it being discussed at all and i havent read through the entire thread tbh, but its like the first thing i thought of, probably cos well ive used it a ton in sketchmons on obliv wing cele, and it sounds waaaay more viable and op in this meta. Its hard to tell without testing, but I would go so far as to say it might even be ban worthy tbh.
 
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#81
I'm really excited that dual wielding managed to win OMotM for October!
I also have some other important news!
Due to coding issues, the option to keep abilities sadly can't be implemented.
That being said though, I hope you all enjoy playing this meta during October, even if it might not be quite how you envisioned it to be!

(Other minor details + mechanic explanations possibly coming soon!)
(edit: small list of other mechanics that got slightly reworked/explained: knock off now only removes the item in the item slot!, iron ball and air balloon no longer have the item in the regular item slot take priority, z moves can break through choicelocks, maybe more so keep checking in / ask someone who knows more than me!)
 
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#82
I'm really excited that dual wielding managed to win OMotM for October!
I also have some other important news!
Due to coding issues, the option to keep abilities sadly can't be implemented.

That being said though, I hope you all enjoy playing this meta during October, even if it might not be quite how you envisioned it to be!

(Other minor details + mechanic explanations possibly coming soon!)
(edit: small list of other mechanics that got slightly reworked/explained: knock off now only removes the item in the item slot!, iron ball and air balloon no longer have the item in the regular item slot take priority, z moves can break through choicelocks, maybe more so keep checking in / ask someone who knows more than me!)
So no terrains avaiable? :c
And here I was making at least 4 teams with terrain-abusing megas and whatnot...
 

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#89
As you may know, this concept is rather difficult to implement. urkerab is working on it at the moment so we'll give it one more day. Unfortunately if it isn't ready by tomorrow, we're going to have to select the runner up for OM of the Month.

Edit: Sorry to say that Dual Wielding isn't ready. I urge everyone to test it on ROM so that it can fixed for next month.
 
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#90
I have good news and bad news!
The bad news is that dual wielding sadly won't be playable on main this month :(
The good news though is that a version of it will be playable on rom now thanks to urkerab!
This version of the meta, while still probably having a few things left to be worked out, has a few small mechanic differences from the one on dragonheaven, so I'd recommend trying them both out for the full experience!
 
#94
I think there's a bug on the rom.psim.us version. Both of my Pokemon's items got knocked off when Knock Off was used against it.
View attachment 89348
Knock off mechanics have been kinda weird in both coded versions. For example, in one game on rom, both items on mon were knocked off, but when the mon switched out and came back in, the second item was back. Although the op originally said that both were supposed to be knocked off, some coding stuff got in the way of that, so that answer has now been edited. Sorry about any confusion that you may have had.
 
#95
Due to the problems we've had last month I thought we were going to see DW as OMOM this month. (Or are Showdown and Smogon unrelated in that aspect?) Unfortunately the OMOTM thread doesn't even contain DW. Is there any way to still include it?
 
#96
Due to the problems we've had last month I thought we were going to see DW as OMOM this month. (Or are Showdown and Smogon unrelated in that aspect?) Unfortunately the OMOTM thread doesn't even contain DW. Is there any way to still include it?
No way to include it, all we can do is wait till next month and hope it gets nominated
That being said, this isn't the kinda thing to make a new thread for
 
#98
Please allow me to address my thoughts about this cancer-free meta!

upload_2017-11-2_10-1-11.png

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 248 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: protectivepads
EVs: 248 HP / 108 SpD / 152 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Protect
- Wish

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled

Hippowdon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: leftovers
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off
- Whirlwind

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: rockyhelmet
EVs: 240 HP / 84 Def / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Heat Wave
- Defog
- Roost

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 240 HP / 240 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell


Key things:

* Leftovers really helps with longevity overall. I have seen stuff like Assault Vest Magearna with Leftovers, which theoretically cancels its weakness of being worn down. Knock Off users are mostly threatened by Fleur Cannon and other stuff.
* Z-crystal on setup sweepers can surprise would-be-checks, especially when it comes to Mega 'mons like Mega Tyranitar. For instance, its Stone Edge normally fails to 2HKO Clefable but if it has Continental Crush from Rockiymm Z, it will get a chance to get past it.
* Some stuff I think is banworthy / should be looked at...


Zygarde's only legal ability in OU is Aura Break, and it is useless due to both Xerneas and Yveltal in Ubers banlist. Meaning, it can find equip:
* Leftovers + Z-crystal to get past Unaware users and defensive roadblocks like Clefable or defensive Landorus-T while being able to do "SubDD" against passive opponents like Toxapex
* Mago Berry + Z-crystal to wipe out balance by using abusing Coil and Mago Berry to set up and blowing up the only wall with Z-move
It can run tons of other options, and above all, the fact that this top tier threat in OU can get rid of its useless ability and equip a second item to perform better against any type of playstyle it is willing to perform better against. Thousand Arrows already limits the counterplay to very narrow range, and if this is added with Leftovers to negate chips and use Substitute + setup / Mago Berry + Coil to setup on offensive teams / Z-crystal to blow up its check... it is just threatening. Zygarde is just gaining a second item slot without a cost.


Keldeo has declined this generation due to insurmountable walls called Toxapex, Tapu Fini as well as existing Tangrowth. The key point is that there are only three Pokemon that can theoretically switch into Keldeo and avoid 2HKO's. The most popular combination I have seen so far / expect to see are Choice Scarf + Life Orb which not only improves its performance against offense but also improves its wallbreaking capability further.

0- Atk Life Orb Keldeo Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 364-432 (117 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Helping Hand Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Helping Hand Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 152-179 (44.1 - 52%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Helping Hand Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 134-159 (44 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Feel like c'teaming?

252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Helping Hand Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Mantine: 168-199 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(Helping Hand boost is equivalent to Choice Specs)

What is AN counterplay. Keldeo no longer has to run Hasty / Naive nature to revenge kill Volcarona, and it 2HKO's all of its checks with Stealth Rock support, which most of the competitive teams can afford. The fact this pony has Secret Sword to hit specially defensive walls means that it essentially becomes a mixed attacker that also has very limited counterplay.

--

I believe Zygarde and Keldeo has to be banned. What are your thoughts?
 
#99
I'm a little confused about Archeops' relationship to this meta, since it seems like it's intentionally included. Is this another meta where I'm not supposed to be able to viably play [not offense] or complain that things are literally unwallable, or is Archeops just an oversight?

Archeops @ Choice Band
Ability: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Head Smash
- Heat Wave
- Aqua Tail
- Hidden Power [Ice] / U-Turn / Acrobatics

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 313-370 (86.2 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 286-339 (85.8 - 101.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 169-199 (48 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 260-307 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 343-406 (82.8 - 98%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Archeops Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 164-195 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Archeops Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 265-312 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 320-378 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 200-237 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 230-272 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 187-221 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 164-192 (48.5 - 56.8%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert-Mega: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

I get that Head Smash has drawbacks, but trading 2 for 1 unfavorably on a bulky team also has drawbacks. I also understand that Archeops has paper thin defenses, but you can literally just lead it against bulky teams, claim your 2 kills, and then play 5v4. I guess you could make an argument that I just have to play around this, as it's choice locked, but when Max/Max Skarmory is dying to one unboosted, non-Z, neutral, physical STAB move there's not much room to play around it.

Intimidate Max/Max Impish Scrafty and Hitmontop honestly get 3HKO'd by every move this set has, but are both abysmal walls in every other situation, have no recovery, only switch in once, and die to Flying STAB, which is pretty easy to slot in over HP Ice. Literally nothing else takes 2 hits after tiny chip outside of Zygarde-C and Impish Arceus-Fighting. I checked every rock resist that has more than 100 HP or 100 Def, every Intimidate, Fluffy, or Fur Coat mon, and every generally bulky mon all with max investment.
 
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