You honestly believe that Ninjask would become some huge OU threat if SR was banned? You left the realm of reasonable discussion several posts ago, but this isn't even worth addressing.
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Entry Hazards - Are They Broken?
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You never know what pokemon will come out of hiding. Iirc ninjask was ou in dppt so I could see it getting a huge boost up the ranks with the loss of its biggest weakness. Besides ninjask can set up on many pokemon and pass the very valuble speed stat and attack stat to many worthy recievers. I know you are gonna use ad hominem and not respond to my post but w.e someone will get my point. I'm not talking crazy. We are talking about a metagame without sr anyway.
vyomov, you can not say that with certainty. It is not possible to be certain of the results of a large metagame shift. You are only speculating. There could be less diversity after the shift for four reasons: Pokemon who rely on Stealth Rock being set to fulfill their specific role becoming less useful, Pokemon who are useful in part because of their ability to use Stealth Rock losing a role, Pokemon who clear Stealth Rock no longer serving a purpose, and metagame shifts indirectly causing some Pokemon to be less viable. To say that the only possibility of banning Stealth Rock is an increase in diversity is short-sighted.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
It wasn't a "noob" pokemon. It just had a bad reputation because for being used as lead when in fact it's the worst possible time to use Ninjask.
Ninjask worked great lategame after you got rid of phazers and SR, especially if you kept it concealed and the opponent didn't expect it.
We can dislike SR for making pokemon which would be interesting bad.
This is absolutely NOT a sign of brokeness.
We can dislike SR for being so usefull, and so, so used.
If this is necessary to be broken, this is NOT a proof of brokeness.
In a comptetitive thinking, the fact that fire, ice, bug or flying became worse doesn't matter. Our meta could have been with 50% of water mon and 50% of steel and be the best we never had with proper conditions.
Diversity is an interesting point : sure that a diverse meta can be easier enjoyed and offer opportunity to originality, but this is only secondary.
But in a serious meta things will always be centralized around the things which makes the best long-term success. They are already a lot which can be used with success, we cannot dream of all equally viable, there will always be bad mons and good mons. If something is more useful without SR, something will be less.
There is diversity in playstyle too. I think about, stall, among other, which is sadly so hard to use in BW(2). This kind of diversity is imo more important than the previous (you can play Heatran in stall, balance or offence, same for Lando-T, same for Politoed, etc) but SR is not the main cause imo. In DPP nearly all styles were viable (nearly, because things like gravity will always sucks, and sun was outclassed), in BW2 it's not the case. Power creep is the main cause.
Ultimately, what matters is "Does the most skilled player of the two win the match more often than not ?" (and thus with an higher probability as the skill-level difference is higher)
From my experience in numerous match, I think that SR is far from making the worst player winning too often. Really far.
This is absolutely NOT a sign of brokeness.
We can dislike SR for being so usefull, and so, so used.
If this is necessary to be broken, this is NOT a proof of brokeness.
In a comptetitive thinking, the fact that fire, ice, bug or flying became worse doesn't matter. Our meta could have been with 50% of water mon and 50% of steel and be the best we never had with proper conditions.
Diversity is an interesting point : sure that a diverse meta can be easier enjoyed and offer opportunity to originality, but this is only secondary.
But in a serious meta things will always be centralized around the things which makes the best long-term success. They are already a lot which can be used with success, we cannot dream of all equally viable, there will always be bad mons and good mons. If something is more useful without SR, something will be less.
There is diversity in playstyle too. I think about, stall, among other, which is sadly so hard to use in BW(2). This kind of diversity is imo more important than the previous (you can play Heatran in stall, balance or offence, same for Lando-T, same for Politoed, etc) but SR is not the main cause imo. In DPP nearly all styles were viable (nearly, because things like gravity will always sucks, and sun was outclassed), in BW2 it's not the case. Power creep is the main cause.
Ultimately, what matters is "Does the most skilled player of the two win the match more often than not ?" (and thus with an higher probability as the skill-level difference is higher)
From my experience in numerous match, I think that SR is far from making the worst player winning too often. Really far.
At a first glance of this thread, I voted that entry hazards were / are not broken, but after reading this thread, it seems that there are much better arguements that Stealth Rock is broken, and I think I might have to reconsider my thoughts on the subject. Dcae, Kidogo, and Lady Alex have made some brilliant arguements in this thread, and it's quite a pleasure reading this thread. Cool topic.
Based on my previous post, I'd like to expand on why I believe Stealth Rock deserves at least a suspect test if not a ban.
Firstly, most people have said that banning moves has never been done and so can't be done.
People, everything has to start somewhere. Even people when Pokemon was introduced said: "Playing pokemon has never been done before and so can't be done".
The argument is invalid simply because precedents always start something. You can't do something without starting it right? At some point we have to start, why not now than later?
Secondly, a lot of people feel that other moves like Earthquake could be considered broken.
The difference between SR and Earthquake is that Earthquake doesn't Chop off 50% before you even start! This means that faster Pokemon can always outspeed and get a chance to strike back.
I would like to at this point define broken as a concept: a factor that differentiates Pokemon by viability to such an extent that it overrides simply too many other factors to the point that a Pokemon, despite having potential, is largely untapped in usage because of said factor. This factor is also a factor that to a certain extent imbalances the metagame to the point that certain playstyles which, with the absence of said factor, would be viable, become impractical. Said factor must also be distributed widely to the point that there are a large number of ways to spam said factor and that these ways outnumber this factor.
In this sense, Stealth Rock is broken because it overrides too many factors(Base Stat, movepool, role played on a team, ability to counter in new ways, room for creativity) on multiple Pokemon. It also fits the other criteria because it makes playstyles like Hail and Sun impractical and helps Rain dominate.
Take an example in order to further illustrate the definition: Darkrai.
Darkrai had high stats but had a differentiating factor which overrode the whole metagame: Dark Void + Bad Dreams.
Dark Void affected every Pokemon in the metagame: no immunities.
Also, Bad Dreams effectively meant that the Pokemon would not only be asleep but also would suffer damage, combining two statuses at the same time.
In this situation, rather than looking at number of Pokemon which would be inappropriate, examine the number of sets that could carry this: all. Every Darkrai set, from Support to Special Attacker, at the cost of one move slot, could easily carry this move and render one pokemon ineffective.
This is the simple reason why Darkrai was broken.
Just like that, I believe Stealth Rock is also broken.
Regrettably, smogon does not publish a moves usage stat(or at least not one I am aware of) so we cannot see just what percentage of competitive teams have at least one SR setter.
I would like to now draw attention to the advantages of a playtest.
Firstly, the worst possible situation: Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona become broken, Sun teams become broken because of Volcarona, no increase in usage of Ice and Bug types. We then revert back to SR and no damage done. Is there any loss from doing so? No, not at all!!
Secondly, the best possible situation: Types like Ice and flying become more viable and check the dragons which were feared to be broken and volca, playstyles like hail and Sun become more viable, rain dominance becomes an equalized metagame with more room for creativity.
However, some people still are against the idea, claiming there is not enough time. Well, I think there is more than enough time. We have SIX months before X and Y, it's not like X and Y are releasing tomorrow :)
Another alternative might be to cancel the TM Status of Stealth Rock, thus severely cutting on the distribution of SR. I like this option for a couple of reasons. This is the list from Bulbapedia:
Geodude
Graveler
Golem
Onix
Steelix
Roggenrola
Boldore
Gigalith
Dwebble
Crustle.
Firstly, while not completely eradicating SR, this option means that no longer can pokemon like Chansey and Blissey, which do not need SR and have no right to it, spam SR.
Secondly, the above Pokemon will see considerably more usage, which can only diversify the metagame.
Thirdly, pokemon like Articuno would be more used, but at the same time, pokemon like Drago and Sala would not be broken because of the existence of setters.
However, I still prefer the banning of SR(the second option is more moderate, but doesn't completely eradicate the issue) and would heartily welcome a suspect test without SR.
Firstly, most people have said that banning moves has never been done and so can't be done.
People, everything has to start somewhere. Even people when Pokemon was introduced said: "Playing pokemon has never been done before and so can't be done".
The argument is invalid simply because precedents always start something. You can't do something without starting it right? At some point we have to start, why not now than later?
Secondly, a lot of people feel that other moves like Earthquake could be considered broken.
The difference between SR and Earthquake is that Earthquake doesn't Chop off 50% before you even start! This means that faster Pokemon can always outspeed and get a chance to strike back.
I would like to at this point define broken as a concept: a factor that differentiates Pokemon by viability to such an extent that it overrides simply too many other factors to the point that a Pokemon, despite having potential, is largely untapped in usage because of said factor. This factor is also a factor that to a certain extent imbalances the metagame to the point that certain playstyles which, with the absence of said factor, would be viable, become impractical. Said factor must also be distributed widely to the point that there are a large number of ways to spam said factor and that these ways outnumber this factor.
In this sense, Stealth Rock is broken because it overrides too many factors(Base Stat, movepool, role played on a team, ability to counter in new ways, room for creativity) on multiple Pokemon. It also fits the other criteria because it makes playstyles like Hail and Sun impractical and helps Rain dominate.
Take an example in order to further illustrate the definition: Darkrai.
Darkrai had high stats but had a differentiating factor which overrode the whole metagame: Dark Void + Bad Dreams.
Dark Void affected every Pokemon in the metagame: no immunities.
Also, Bad Dreams effectively meant that the Pokemon would not only be asleep but also would suffer damage, combining two statuses at the same time.
In this situation, rather than looking at number of Pokemon which would be inappropriate, examine the number of sets that could carry this: all. Every Darkrai set, from Support to Special Attacker, at the cost of one move slot, could easily carry this move and render one pokemon ineffective.
This is the simple reason why Darkrai was broken.
Just like that, I believe Stealth Rock is also broken.
Regrettably, smogon does not publish a moves usage stat(or at least not one I am aware of) so we cannot see just what percentage of competitive teams have at least one SR setter.
I would like to now draw attention to the advantages of a playtest.
Firstly, the worst possible situation: Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona become broken, Sun teams become broken because of Volcarona, no increase in usage of Ice and Bug types. We then revert back to SR and no damage done. Is there any loss from doing so? No, not at all!!
Secondly, the best possible situation: Types like Ice and flying become more viable and check the dragons which were feared to be broken and volca, playstyles like hail and Sun become more viable, rain dominance becomes an equalized metagame with more room for creativity.
However, some people still are against the idea, claiming there is not enough time. Well, I think there is more than enough time. We have SIX months before X and Y, it's not like X and Y are releasing tomorrow :)
Another alternative might be to cancel the TM Status of Stealth Rock, thus severely cutting on the distribution of SR. I like this option for a couple of reasons. This is the list from Bulbapedia:
Geodude
Graveler
Golem
Onix
Steelix
Roggenrola
Boldore
Gigalith
Dwebble
Crustle.
Firstly, while not completely eradicating SR, this option means that no longer can pokemon like Chansey and Blissey, which do not need SR and have no right to it, spam SR.
Secondly, the above Pokemon will see considerably more usage, which can only diversify the metagame.
Thirdly, pokemon like Articuno would be more used, but at the same time, pokemon like Drago and Sala would not be broken because of the existence of setters.
However, I still prefer the banning of SR(the second option is more moderate, but doesn't completely eradicate the issue) and would heartily welcome a suspect test without SR.
- Stealth Rock balances threats like Volcarona, Dragonite, Salamence and alot of other different Pokémons. Stealth Rock can`t be nerfed. It is gone or it stays. Volcarona and Salamence would skyrocket to number 1 and 2 on the usage list. Please don`t.
- Spikes are more balanced. It does a well portion of damage. It is hard to set-up, and a waste of 3 turns, but it works out well. Sad thing is, the only good spikers in the current meta-game are weak to Fire, and Heatran counters them all.
However, Flying-types have an immunity to Spikes, nullifying the effect. Unless you have another Stealth Rock up, Flying-types don`t get damage from hazards.
- Toxic Spikes are seen very rarely. Sometimes, when I use Tentacruel I use Toxic Spikes. They aren`t so great, but they take a status. That status is still pretty important. When Toxic`d, the only way you can stop it is Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Poison Heal. As the only Heal Bell user really is Chansey, it still does a good portion of damage.
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Overall, Flying-types immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes are the biggest reason why hazards aren`t overpowered. And uhh,
You want Volcarona skyrocket in Ubers?
- Spikes are more balanced. It does a well portion of damage. It is hard to set-up, and a waste of 3 turns, but it works out well. Sad thing is, the only good spikers in the current meta-game are weak to Fire, and Heatran counters them all.
However, Flying-types have an immunity to Spikes, nullifying the effect. Unless you have another Stealth Rock up, Flying-types don`t get damage from hazards.
- Toxic Spikes are seen very rarely. Sometimes, when I use Tentacruel I use Toxic Spikes. They aren`t so great, but they take a status. That status is still pretty important. When Toxic`d, the only way you can stop it is Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Poison Heal. As the only Heal Bell user really is Chansey, it still does a good portion of damage.
-------
Overall, Flying-types immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes are the biggest reason why hazards aren`t overpowered. And uhh,
You want Volcarona skyrocket in Ubers?
Then those people are dumb, joking around, or not serious.
This reflects a massive misunderstanding of Darkrai. Darkrai was broken because of its massive speed, movepool, and coverage which just destroyed the metagame. With Dark Void, you would get a free KO (with the sleep mechanics) AND have a free turn to set up a Substitute or Nasty Plot and go to town. Darkrai had almost perfect coverage with Focus Blast + Dark Pulse, and it could even run a mono attacking set with Sub / NP / DV to great success, as well as other sets like Scarf. It was 2 strong, 2 fast, and exceptionally hard to beat and was broken. Bad Dreams was NOT the real reason Darkrai was banned (at least to my knowledge) so your example doesn't really work.
Just a massive waste of time? I don't quite know how you think a suspect process works but ill spell it out for you now. Firstly, you need to get the council's approval, so thats a good 2 weeks there id imagine, as well as a full month for a playtest, as well as an additional week for voting + ladder getting updated etc etc. We could be spending time on something else rather than piddling around with Stealth Rock. Not to mention you have no idea how we would handle it, do we ban the move from all pokemon, the TM, or something else? If we ban Stealth Rock why not hit all the sleep inducing moves from pokemon, with the new sleep mechanics its a free KO etc etc. Such issues need to be sorted and I don't think its going to be as simple and easy as you say.
I don't like this situation, because it can be applied to anything. The other day someone argued for bringing Giratina-O into OU, to better check Sun and Rain teams and equalise the metagame. Sure, this time its taking something out rather than putting something back in, but the end result is still the same, your senario could potentially be used to push for a number of things to be OU / banned from OU. If the best case senario, is an overcentralised metagame with a large number of ice types and (limited) Volcarona counters than this doesn't sound like a good idea at all.
Also
Ignoring that Volcarona could run HP Rock. We have the following:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres in sun: 370-437 (115.26 - 136.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yep, not happening.
Firstly, ginganinja, while Moltres can't switch in on Volcarona attack, neither can Volcarona switch in on Moltres: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 600-708 (192.92 - 227.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even if you assume low accuracy, Fire Blast: 96.46 - 113.82%
Secondly, waste of time?? Our objective should be to try and equalize the metagame to the best of our ability and to have room for creativity rather than spamming Stealth Rock
Thirdly, agreed there are issues with what and how to ban, but being negative before we even start isn't a good thing to do.
Fourthly, how exactly is an equalized metagame bad? It definitely isn't overcentralised, in fact it would be spread out over the multiple playstyles available with hail and sun being more viable.
As for Volcarona, keep this in mind. If rock types carry an offensive move INSTEAD of Stealth Rock, won't they be able to counter Volcarona as well.
Volcarona is powerful, but with bad defensive typing, anything that outspeeds can OHKO.
Even if you assume low accuracy, Fire Blast: 96.46 - 113.82%
Secondly, waste of time?? Our objective should be to try and equalize the metagame to the best of our ability and to have room for creativity rather than spamming Stealth Rock
Thirdly, agreed there are issues with what and how to ban, but being negative before we even start isn't a good thing to do.
Fourthly, how exactly is an equalized metagame bad? It definitely isn't overcentralised, in fact it would be spread out over the multiple playstyles available with hail and sun being more viable.
As for Volcarona, keep this in mind. If rock types carry an offensive move INSTEAD of Stealth Rock, won't they be able to counter Volcarona as well.
Volcarona is powerful, but with bad defensive typing, anything that outspeeds can OHKO.
Get a spinner. Have it blocked by Jellicent, which as Lady Alex previously mentioned takes all the spinners with ease. Be further dominated by rain team. It's not viable, my friend.
I have yet to hear why should SR be suspected and why some people think is broken. The only arguments i have seen here to support SR's brokeness are that it is on every team and that it is the best move in the game. Are we even serious guys? Since when usage = broken and since when the best move = broken? There are plenty of ways to deal with SR, either by using one of the ways to deal with it (Rapid Spin, Magic Bounce, offensive pressure), or by building a team that doesn't care about it. Also, i have seen many times in this thread the nonsense that the spinblockers of OU are better than the spinners, and i was wondering were logic went... OU has two of the best spinners out of any tier, one offensive and one defensive, Starmie and Tentacruel, and both can beat every single spinblocker while being excellent all around Pokemon. Would it be better to have more spinners available? Definitely, but this doesn't mean that there aren't enough ways to deal with SR atm.
SR doesn't prevent any playstyle from being viable, and it doesn't force every player to overprepare for it or lose. It doesn't even have a few counters, out of which most are niche and have no use outside of dealing with SR. So basically, SR fits none of the criteria that make something broken, yet you want it banned?
''I don't like it'' with ''it should be banned'' are two very different things. I, like many other people, dislike the bland discrimination that SR brings to Fire, Bug, and Ice types. If the goal of GF when creating SR was to hit everything immune to Spikes, why not make SR deal 25% to Flyng-types and Levitators and be done with it? Why unecessary nerf all those other Pokemon? Also, the fact that SR can deal 50% to Pokemon such as Moltres, Yanmega, and Charizard (yeah even Charizard. Did you know that a simple Sunny Day set with Lefties and Fire Blast, Solarbeam, and HP Fighting/Ground has no counters in OU outside of Blissey and Latias, while having decent Speed for OU standards), Pokemon that would be otherwise be very viable in OU, is just annoying and unfair. But this doesn't mean that SR is broken, it means that some things are inherently good while some other things are inherently bad. Some types are inherently worse than others, and certain elements of the game favor some types more than others. In the same way that Ice-types are some of the worse types in the game, SR leaves some types at a disadvantage. Do you find it fair that Dragon-types have so many resistances and so few weaknesses, as well as almost perfect neutral coverage. Or do you find it fair that Fighting types basically have no common weakness while sporting excellent resistances? The game is not fair, it is actually full of bland discriminiations, and SR is one of them.
This has always been such a controversial matter because many people fail to understand that SR being on every team isn't a reason for being broken. So what if SR is necessary for every team? How does this translate to SR being broken? Steel-types are necessary on every team too, should we ban them?
So unless we see even one real argument as to why SR should be suspected, it shouldn't and it won't be suspected.
SR doesn't prevent any playstyle from being viable, and it doesn't force every player to overprepare for it or lose. It doesn't even have a few counters, out of which most are niche and have no use outside of dealing with SR. So basically, SR fits none of the criteria that make something broken, yet you want it banned?
''I don't like it'' with ''it should be banned'' are two very different things. I, like many other people, dislike the bland discrimination that SR brings to Fire, Bug, and Ice types. If the goal of GF when creating SR was to hit everything immune to Spikes, why not make SR deal 25% to Flyng-types and Levitators and be done with it? Why unecessary nerf all those other Pokemon? Also, the fact that SR can deal 50% to Pokemon such as Moltres, Yanmega, and Charizard (yeah even Charizard. Did you know that a simple Sunny Day set with Lefties and Fire Blast, Solarbeam, and HP Fighting/Ground has no counters in OU outside of Blissey and Latias, while having decent Speed for OU standards), Pokemon that would be otherwise be very viable in OU, is just annoying and unfair. But this doesn't mean that SR is broken, it means that some things are inherently good while some other things are inherently bad. Some types are inherently worse than others, and certain elements of the game favor some types more than others. In the same way that Ice-types are some of the worse types in the game, SR leaves some types at a disadvantage. Do you find it fair that Dragon-types have so many resistances and so few weaknesses, as well as almost perfect neutral coverage. Or do you find it fair that Fighting types basically have no common weakness while sporting excellent resistances? The game is not fair, it is actually full of bland discriminiations, and SR is one of them.
This has always been such a controversial matter because many people fail to understand that SR being on every team isn't a reason for being broken. So what if SR is necessary for every team? How does this translate to SR being broken? Steel-types are necessary on every team too, should we ban them?
So unless we see even one real argument as to why SR should be suspected, it shouldn't and it won't be suspected.
I agree with ginganinja's comments. A metagame without Stealth Rock would just be plain bad. Volcarona and the Flying Dragons would run rampant due to the fact that there would be no Rocks to effectively check them, and while it is not unfair to say that you just use Chansey for the former and Ice types for the latter, it should not be necessary to run one Pokemon or type of Pokemon to counter another. Take Genesect. He was genuinely broken, due to the diversity of his movepool, the fact that Download gave him a free boost, and that he just filled one role that multiple Pokemon filled before he was released. Genesect was a Pokemon who had very few counters, centralized the metagame, and was basically just something you could slap on and make work. SR is not like this. SR is healthy for the metagame because it keeps many threats in check. Plus, you actually have to pick the right time to set up SR. Letting your opponent get a free switch-in to Rocks is a very real threat, and it hurts if that Shell Smash Cloyster or DDnite comes in for free. Plus, there are many effective teams without SR. So, my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree.
EDIT:
EDIT:
That.alexwolf said:
Volc isn't trying to counter moltres...
And really, I don't see volc being broken. It is walled by too many things and if it becomes too prevelant, some pokes will start running gimmicky stone edge/whatever instead of shoving heatran in
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Until you realize that pokemon such as Moltres and Walrein become viable to check Volcarona and dragon types, respectively.
Are you trolling or are you actually that serious?
You claimed that Volcarona is easier to counter (in a no SR metagame), with a Moltres. I just posted calcs showing that Volcarona proceeds to OHKO said Moltres, rendering your point moot. Why the FUCK would I set up against a Moltres, which can OHKO me with a FB under sunlight.
Also don't double post, you have been called out for it before, and the next one will be an infraction.
Scroll up, Moltres doesn't counter Volcarona tyvm
The last two paragraphs address the notion that the "SR is broken" group hasn't talked about why SR is broken. I also made the comparison that you have to run rocks yourself to win in a SR metagame, just like people felt they needed to run Excadrill to win in an Excadrill meta. There is one "reliable" stealth rock counter in OU that can fit on a variety of teams, starmie. But for starmie to do its job, it has to switch in safely, possibly beat a ghost type, not get pursuit trapped, and then waste another turn spinning. And somehow do all of this without losing momentum. Good opportunities to spin are extremely rare. Yes you can spin whenever if there is no blocker, but usually the cost of wasting that turn(two counting the swtch in) is far too high.
Combine the fact that SR is reeeally good to the fact that it is hard to counter and SR fits the idea of broken. Consequently, every team uses it because you must use an equally broken strategy to compete on a level playing field if viable counters to the strategy aren't cost-effective. The argument is not that it is broken because everyone uses it. The argument is not based solely on the type-centralization effect. It's mainly based on the fact that SR actually is broken. And if this is the case, suspecting a move shouldn't be seen as taboo.
Jake you have to give a reason why it is broken. A really good reason. You can't just say "its broken because it is broken". What is "the idea of being broken"? You are just calling it broken without giving an explanation or insight on how the metagame would be better without it. Also you can't compare a broken pokemon (excadrill) to a possibly broken move (SR).
There are only 2 viable ghost in OU... Jellicent and gengar... With team preview you can easily manage SR as both of these pokemon are not super common anymore. If you get pursuit trapped then that is your problem as well. If you really want SR to be gone there are many ways to do it. Spinners are usually very effective if you play them right.
There are only 2 viable ghost in OU... Jellicent and gengar... With team preview you can easily manage SR as both of these pokemon are not super common anymore. If you get pursuit trapped then that is your problem as well. If you really want SR to be gone there are many ways to do it. Spinners are usually very effective if you play them right.
As far as I know, Moltres can run defensive EV though, as well as run a Scarf, something you did not account for. However, I agree with you that Moltres is barely a check to Volcarona, though, but mostly for Hurricane's shaky accuracy - especially in the sun. If someone considers 50% reliable, why aren't you using Zap Cannon?
In the rain, it becomes a different matter, though, but Volcarona is quite good in the rain anyway while Moltres has some issues there (though STAB Hurricane is quite amazing).
That being said, I think SR in its current state is broken, but a necessary evil as banning would cause numerous issues especially with only months to spare. (I don't even bother with other hazards, they aren't broken at all, though Toxic Spikes are insanely annoying if you don't use a grounded Poison type / levitating or Steel-type Spinner (Claydol, Excadrill), but useless if you do, which makes Toxic Spikes a wasted moveslot at times).
Just a quick note. Time should not be used as an arguement to not test SR. BW2 will still be a tier regardless of X / Y being released, and BW2 will still be using in major tournaments.
This point has already been brought up, but the fact that it still needs to be said means that not everyone has read the previous posts in this thread (yet).
This point has already been brought up, but the fact that it still needs to be said means that not everyone has read the previous posts in this thread (yet).
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