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Espeon (Analysis) [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by MatchMaster, May 5, 2013.

  1. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Since this is my first time writing an analysis, I'm not sure if I'm doing this correctly. If not, just close the thread.

    5/15/13: Since this seems to be the only set that has a chance of getting approved, it is ready for QC check
    Status
    QC Approvals: 3 of 3
    GP Approvals: 2 of 2
    Waiting for upload

    [​IMG]

    ESPEON
    [Overview]

    <p>At first, Espeon might seem completely out of place in the Ubers metagame. Aside from its Special Attack and Speed its other stats are pitiful, as base 65 / 60 / 95 defenses make Espeon very vulnerable to the powerful attacks thrown around in the tier, especially priority ones. It also has a barren movepool, making it one-dimensional and easy to play around. Being Pursuit weak is another undesirable quality, making Espeon easy pickings for Tyranitar and Scizor. To top it all off, its only form of recovery, Morning Sun, is near useless in the rain-infested metagame.</p>

    <p>However, it's Espeon's phenomenal ability, Magic Bounce, that makes it worth using in Ubers. This coveted ability allows it to deflect all forms of entry hazards, ensuring that dangerous sun sweepers, such as Ho-Oh and Kyurem-W, don't go down prematurely. Magic Bounce also allows Espeon to ward off other support moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Roar, and Whirlwind, giving stall team headaches, as they usually rely on these moves to stall out their opponents. Espeon also happens to be capable of stopping Forretress and Skarmory, two common hazard setters, in their tracks and KO them. When thinking of a team supporter that can perform these roles, Xatu might come to mind first due to its immunity to Earthquake, reliable recovery, and slightly higher Defense. Unlike Xatu, however, Espeon can deal a fair amount of damage, preventing it from becoming setup bait. Espeon cannot be used recklessly though; it needs a good deal of team support to get its job done. One slight misprediction could result in Espeon's demise.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Focus Sash Attacker
    move 1: Psyshock / Shadow Ball
    move 2: Yawn / Psyshock
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Magic Bounce
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>As Espeon is fast, frail, and fairly powerful, a Focus Sash set immediately comes to mind. Being able to stop most defensive hazard setters&mdash;and even some offensive ones&mdash;this set can make way for powerful teammates that are troubled by entry hazards. Psyshock is preferred in the first slot as it is Espeon's better STAB move, allowing it to OHKO Tentacruel and Terrakion after Stealth Rock. Shadow Ball is another viable option to hit Deoxys-S and KO heavily weakened Mewtwo, Giratina-O, and Ghost Arceus on the switch. Yawn prevents Espeon from being setup bait for the likes of Arceus and Mewtwo. Grass Knot is important, as it is Espeon's best move against Kyogre, Groudon, and Tyranitar, 2HKOing all of them after Stealth Rock. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire hits Skarmory and Forretress, two common hazard setters, for super effective damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>There are two other options that Espeon can make use of. The first is Baton Pass, which can be used to scout for counters and escape Pursuit. This can help preserve Espeon's Focus Sash and possibly allow it to come back later and bounce back entry hazards. The second viable option is Hidden Power Fighting, which is its best option against Tyranitar and Dialga; however, it will still fail to OHKO both and the former takes a good amount of damage from Grass Knot.</p>

    <p>The most obvious partner for Espeon is Groudon; it can easily take on Tyranitar, Scizor, and Dialga, all of which can force Espeon out. The sun it summons also powers up the Fire-type moves of Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W, all of which appreciate Magic Bounce support, making them good teammates as well. Sun support also makes Morning Sun restore up to 67% of Espeon's health, making it a viable option. Another good teammate to consider is Choice Scarf Terrakion, who threatens Extreme Killer Arceus, Darkrai, and both Kyurem formes, all which Pokemon can otherwise trouble Espeon's other teammate, Groudon. Finally, Calm Mind Ghost Arceus can stop Genesect, which easily threatens Espeon with its powerful STAB U-turn.</p>

    <p>It should be noted that due to Espeon's frailty, it will usually only block hazards twice; once when at full health, and once when it is down to its Focus Sash. However, Tyranitar will only let Espeon block them once, as it will Pursuit trap Espeon if it switches out, leaving it at 1 HP. Tyranitar can then proceed to set up Stealth Rock, thus taking Espeon out the moment it attempts to switch in. Excadrill sets up Stealth Rock with impunity due to Mold Breaker bypassing the effects of Magic Bounce. Groudon, and to a lesser extent, Terrakion, make good teammates as they can threaten these two entry hazard setters with STAB Earthquake or Close Combat.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A dual screens set has merits, as Espeon is not stopped by Taunt and isn't setup fodder for entry hazard setters, but Deoxys-S pulls this off better thanks to higher Speed and makes up for its vulnerability to Taunt with access to the move itself. A set with Trick and a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs can allow Espeon to outpace or hit opposing Pokemon hard, while being able to cripple a wall&mdash;but again, Deoxys-S outclasses it in this role.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Hard-hitting priority users, such as Arceus, Giratina-O, and Scizor, will quickly dispatch of Espeon due to its frailty, although Scizor will have to watch out for Hidden Power Fire. Speaking of Scizor, it can also Pursuit trap Espeon if it decides to switch out. Tyranitar does this job even better, as it is at best 2HKOed by Hidden Power Fighting or Grass Knot after Stealth Rock. Ho-Oh can easily take anything bar Psyshock and OHKO back. Like a lot of Pokemon, Espeon can be preyed upon by revenge killers, as almost any Choice Scarf user in the tier can outpace and KO Espeon with the appropriate move. The most prominent of these is Genesect, which easily OHKOes it with U-turn after Espeon's Focus Sash is broken.</p>
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  2. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    Umm, Espeon is practically immune to Taunt thanks to Magic Bounce remember?
  3. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Right fixed that. Espeon isn't that vulnerable.
  4. Vertex

    Vertex

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    Espeon's defenses are just horrible in Ubers even with the EVs and nature you chose. Just run 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe with Timid Nature.
  5. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    The first set listed should probably be Focus Sash Attacker; Yawn/GK/HP Fire/Psyshock maybe. The utility of preventing SR for many teams along with decent power to hit various SR users and other pokemon (or maybe phase with yawn) is Espeon's best use in ubers.
  6. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Mmkay. I actually had this particular set in mind originally, as I see it a lot on Espeon in Ubers, but I figured at least some survivability might help it. I'll work on it.
  7. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Firstly, I'm outrightly rejecting the Baton Pass set. Passing on stuff with Espeon is extremely difficult in Ubers due to how hard they hit. You'd be lucky surviving anything with Espeon, let along boost and pass off.

    I'm actually very much on the fence about Espeon in general. On one hand, it's really mediocre that I want to reject it totally, however, it does have a small niche in Magic Bounce. Bouncing back hazards even temporarily is useful, and you really have to emphasise that Espeon can only stall Stealth Rock a couple of times at the most. Make sure you mention a few Pokemon that really makes Espeon difficult to block spin. Instead of twice, Tyranitar makes sure you can only block Stealth Rock once because it renders Focus Sash moot. Mold Breaker Excadrill ignores Magic Bounce and sets up Stealth Rock anyway.
  8. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Added the stuff you mentioned, and yeah, I agree myself it is very hard to keep alive, but there are a few reasons I thought would make an analysis worthy.

    1. The only other Magic Bounce user is Xatu, who has even worse overall stats than Espeon. It is also weak to SR.

    2. Espeon has seen significant usage in Ubers lately. (#34 in April, which is high enough for it not to be trolling)

    3. Kyurem-W, Ho-Oh, Genesect, Froslass and Sableye's analysis' mention Espeon, and the lack of one seems a bit strange to me if it gets mentions in all those, but no analysis.

    4. We have an uber analysis for things even harder to keep alive and have small niches (Xatu, Sableye, Abomasnow, etc.)
  9. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    Just throwing in my five cents here, I have used Espeon a lot.

    The set looks good and all but HP Fighting is in my opinion the superior choice as it weakens lead Dialga in two hits before getting taken out, leaving Dialga at a health where a team-mate such as Ho-oh or Kyurem-W can prevent it from getting rocks up. HP Fire is of course useful, but generally it's easier to threaten Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory with other mons on your team than it is to threaten Dialga which warrants HP Fighting's usefulness.

    Speculating of whether Espeon is good enough to get an analysis or not is a hard task as Espeon has its niche on offensive sun teams and offensive sun teams only in my experience. This is because Espeon frailness and common sun mons (Ho-oh, Reshiram, Kyurem-W) ability to threaten hazard setters directly in a much better way than most team archetypes. Maybe its niche is too small, but on those precise teams, Espeon can certainly pull its weight. Also, CM Baton Pass is not effective from my experience.
  10. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Responding to your points:

    1) Even though it has worse overall stats than Espeon, Xatu is arguably a better Magic Bouncer than Espeon because it has better physical bulk and most importantly, access to reliable recovery. It can also hit Ferrothorn and Forretress harder with Heat Wave. Being weak to SR is irrelevant because you're bouncing back hazards anyway, and if SR is up, Espeon's miniscule bulk would pretty much mean that 12.5% difference would be make very little difference because both die to a single poke anyway. Trust me, I have actually tried both Espeon and Xatu on my offensive sun team (my trolly double Drought team), and honestly, I prefer Xatu. At least Xatu has an immunity to Earthquake and reliable recovery while Espeon is mostly death fodder most of the time (while blocking SR). Xatu can come in repeatedly against a lot of hazard layers (eg Ferrothorn), while Espeon is only doing it once or twice.

    2) I wouldn't put very much notice on Ubers usage stats, especially those of the Ubers ladder. I know they are the only source of objective stats we have and we should respect that, but there is so much shit on those stats you may as well disregard it. I mean just look at what Espeon is above. It's above Tornadus-T, Arceus-Grass, Wobbuffet, Arceus-Fighting and whole bunch of extremely legit Pokemon. The Ubers ladder is notorious for having lots of bad players, and just because a Pokemon is high up on usage does not necessarily mean it's good. There was one month where Magikarp was #7 on the Ubers lead stats (April Fools' joke, see here), and this was at a time where people took the ladder seriously in Ubers.

    3) I'll give you this, however, a lot of analyses have very niche mentions of lower tier Pokemon that don't have analyses. I can't think of them at the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure there are.

    4) That's pretty subjective here. I personally think Xatu is clearly a better Magic Bouncer in Ubers, while Sableye has a very distinct niche. Abomasnow is kind of shaky, but it IS the only Pokemon that has Snow Warning, I guess. ALL of these Pokemon can actually do stuff that isn't just "switch in and die to stall for time". This is my problem with Espeon. Yes, you can switch it in to block entry hazards a couple of times, but what else does it do? It can't kill anything of note, it can't significantly support the team. It has no mid-game nor end-game utility.

    Anyway, I'm still not sure what I want to do with this yet, but you definitely need to get rid of the Baton Pass set. It sucks so much it's not funny. Other things that came to my head is that a team can potentially have multiple potential entry hazard layers, which puts a lot of strain on Espeon trying to hazard block. You need to mention this in your analysis For example, you could have an opposing team with stuff like GhostCeus, Groudon and Dialga. SR may be on GhostCeus for all you know, but you'd be sure as hell to bring it in on Groudon and Dialga because they tend to be the mons that set up Stealth Rock.

    As for HP Fighting on Espeon, I think it's mediocre. You shouldn't be trying to kill Dialga with it. Instead, if you're going to run an offensive sun team, I'd suggest running Life Orb Groudon so you can OHKO Dialga whenever you want. HP Fighting isn't hurting Tyranitar much either. HP Fire has much greater utility against actual dedicated entry hazard layers like Forretress and Ferrothorn, as well as preventing Genesect from getting a free switch-in.
  11. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Got rid of the Baton Pass set, since it looks like everyone agrees its useless.

    @shrang: Didn't know how much I should trust the ubers latter either, since there's people arguing about usage every time the stats come out. I figured it was high enough for it to be legit usage. Anyway, do whatever you want to do with this.
  12. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I know usage isn't a good argument, but I feel like Espeon is too relevant in Ubers to be ignored, even if it is relatively mediocre. When I play Ubers (which isn't often admittedly), I see a ton of Espeon, and the player's ratings are all over the place (one battle I did was against the #1 guy and the team had an Espeon on it). Plus, Espeon is 34th in usage, and the next lowest Pokemon on the list that lacks an analysis on the Suspect Test usage (aside from Moody Pokemon, the gimmicky Riolu, and the straightforward af Ninjask) is Gengar (all the way down at 74th with an extremely low weight).

    At the very least I wanted to know what moves to put on my Espeon because I thought it was OK and I wanted to try it out but I had no idea where to start with it. I think it deserves an analysis so then people know what to expect from something as common as Espeon, because even higher on the ladder there are still a good amount of Espeon. I really didn't like being caught off guard several times by Grass Knot Espeon not realizing it was standard and thinking only a few people were using it for surprise factor!
  13. polop

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    I don't think Baton Pass should be completely ignored. Its not that Espeon is nice for deflecting Whirlwind for Baton Pass teams (a set dedicated to it, I agree sounds a bit farfetched), but Baton Pass allows Espeon to run away from Tyranitar before getting stomped on by Pursuit. Yawn + Baton Pass is also a very effective way to steal momentum by forcing the hazard user to switch (or fall asleep, regardless its done its job at making the hazard user a bit smaller of a problem) and scouting the switch-in. It might not be deserving of a slash on the main set but I think it fits in OO nicely...

    I also think you should add spin blocker support in AC because playing mind games with Forretress is always fun (that and I like keeping the hazards I get :P). Just be aware that this is a bit tricky as Gyro Ball Forry will OHKO Espeon if sash is broken.
  14. Furai

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    I'd also like to add that Baton Pass is also a useful scouting move because you cannot lower Espeon's stats with abilities such as Intimidate or moves such as Swagger.
  15. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    What I meant was having a specific set dedicated to Baton Pass is just bad. However, I am pretty happy for Baton Pass to be mentioned in AC of the first set.
  16. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    I don't think Xatu is "clearly" the better Magic Bounce user in ubers.
    Xatu is better used on defensive teams, while Espeon should be used in offensive ones. Both deserve a uber analysis.

    It's extremely slow, for starters, which means it's a momentum killer and not a good option for offensive teams.
    Even though Xatu learns U-Turn it's not listed on its analysis for some reason.

    Secondly, Xatu's type plain sucks. It trades a Bug neutrality and a Ground immunity for Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses, which are horrible ones to have in ubers.

    Finally, Xatu is typically used as a dual screener, while Espeon should be used as an offensive pivot.
    130 base special attack isn't bad at all, and while its movepool sucks, it does get Grass Knot to punish both Groudon and Kyogre, as well as a decently powerful Psyshock that could be used against CM users in a pinch. Shadow Ball needs to be mentioned somewhere since it lets Espeon hit the common psychic and ghost types for decent damage.

    Baton Pass is useful even as dry passing to let Espeon escape from Tyranitar's Pursuit instead of being outright OHKO'd.

    As for Hidden Power, I think HP Fire is an absolute must. Not only does Espeon need to dispatch Ferrothorn and Forretress ASAP because it won't be able to take more than a Gyro Ball, but it's complete Genesect bait without it.
    Espeon has no business staying in against Dark types anyway and HP Fighting doesn't even 2HKO Tyranitar, making it pointless.
  17. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    A lot of the better Sun teams I commonly face on the Ubers ladder run Espeon; I'm not talking people just joking around but primary teams from many of the best ladderers (since I play rain with no Dialga I couldn't tell HP Fighting from HP Fire and thought they were all using Fire instead, HP Fighting makes sense though because Espeon can actually live hits from Dialga). In addition, it isn't just highly used for something niche, but it is in the current "OU" of Ubers.

    The thing about Xatu is unlike Espeon it has no offensive presence at all, and by Ubers standards it's still superfrail and worse slow. While it walls or beats Forry, Ferro, Tenta, and Hippo usually, Espeon with the right moveset can gravely wound any of them and also pose an offensive threat to things like Kyogre and Groudon too. Espeon's usage is almost four times Xatu's in Ubers and it's for good reason: I think Xatu is clearly worse than Espeon in Ubers.
  18. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    @ElectivireRocks:
    Hidden Power Fighting is a must as Dialga is extremely hard to take out in one hit for any team. Leading with Espeon against it and weakening it with two consecutive attacks makes preventing rocks much easier. And while it is true that you somewhat become Genesect bait, this is not a big problem as Espeon is usually run with Ho-oh. The thing Ferrothorn and Forretress is that they are a way easier to predict around than Dialga and if sturdy is broken on Forretress, it is just easy to go into Ho-oh on a predicted attack and possibly destroy something on the opponents team. I agree with Shadow Ball. It should be slashed with Yawn imo. It is a great tool against Deoxys-S leads, but it makes Pokémon able to set up on Espeon, which is a bit bad. Dry Baton Passing is also cool, I used it for some time ago, it worked okay.

    Edit: sorry about the calc
  19. Bossness

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    The Hidden Power Fighting calculation is wrong. You forgot to factor in sand:
    252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 156-188 (38.61 - 46.53%) -- 23.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (this is the more common Lum Berry Tyranitar)
    If Tyranitar opts for an Adamant nature:
    252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 176-208 (43.56 - 51.48%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    If for some reason, Tyranitar tries to trap Espeon, it will lose the weather war.

    I don't think that Hidden Power Fighting is a neccesity. I had a team with Earth Plate Groudon, Life Orb Terrakion and Life Orb Reshiram. All of them could OHKO Dialga. On that note, mention that teammates are very important... they help Espeon do its job by KOing hazard setters after Espeon weakens them.
  20. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Added Baton Pass and HP Fighting to AC, since it seems like the former does have some use, but is rather limited. As for the latter, I think it might deserve a slash somewhere, as it has helped me more than once to escape Tyranitar and Scizor, but I'm not sure if they're common enough for it to deserve the slash.

    @Shadow Ball: Don't really think it deserves a mention, since Deoxys-S will still usually beat it, and the other targets it would hit are faster or can take the hit.
  21. polop

    polop
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    I'll address both of these posts, because there actually are quite a few misconceptions.

    Two things first though, Xatu can run a specially offensive set, which pretty much does the samething as Espeon with a little less power which isn't very large since they don't change any crucial KOes.

    Secondly, Espeon being able to Draco Meteors from Dialga is pure fiction...
    56+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor (Support Dialga) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 255-301 (94.09 - 111.07%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

    Xatu doesn't take it better, I'll admit to that, but Espeon isn't the bulkiest thing around...

    The thing about typing differences is that the weaknesses gained doesn't really matter seeing as any decently powerful attack will oneshot Espeon or Xatu (unless screens are up). Espeon can't use screens to the extent Xatu can because Xatu has that Ground Immunity and Roost. Both are ridiculously weak, Grass Knot will dent something if super effective but you don't think Xatu's Grass Knot won't either? Xatu has poorer base stats but the difference isn't as large as its made out to be, both should still 2HKO the target's they're aimed against unless the mon is super bulky special defense Kyogre (both fail to 2HKO with Grass Knot) or Tyranitar (but Anikrahman's calculations already show both will fail). Secondly, walling is actually a more desired trait then outright crippling / KOing. Both Espeon and Xatu can hurt most of the Spikers in the game, but Xatu can wall them meaning it can stop them if they dare try to come back in. A ferrothorn is not going to let a Espeon HP fire it away, its going to switch and come back in later and then try to hurt Espeon with Power Whip / Gyro Ball. Xatu does not have this issue thanks to Roost.

    Xatu's analysis does mention U-turn, and its not that slow, it can still outspeed most of the main hazard users with base 95 speed stat, the only one not being outsped in fact is Arceus / Deo-a / Deo-s, but those things outspeed Espeon too so....

    I think adding reasons telling a person when to use Espeon > Xatu might be a bit important. The reason for this is because Espeon and Xatu can perform similar roles (Xatu can even do an offensive one really) but there are some key differences that set them apart. Honestly, the ability to psuedohaze with Yawn IS HUGE! Its the biggest (and the only) reason why Espeon > Xatu and the only reason I can imagine a person would use it. That and Baton Pass but that's far smaller then how awesome racking up passive damage with Yawn can be (unless you get U-turned in the face but there are ways around that). You CAN argue that its more powerful and it is a reason but like I said earlier, all 2HKOes achieved by Xatu against important users are also achieved by Espeon. I don't think there is any KO Espeon gets that Xatu doesn't, if there is someone should post it.
  22. Sweep

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    3 attacks + Yawn Espeon has a bad case of the 4 Moveslot Syndrome. In a perfect world, it wishes it could carry Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, Hidden Power Fighting, Hidden Power Fire, Yawn, AND Psyshock. Unfortunately, it can only carry four. Because of this, Espeon will always be vulnerable to certain threats. Let's take a look at what each of these 6 moves does for Espeon:

    Yawn: Absolutely pivotal as it prevents Espeon from being set-up bait for CM Arceus. It's also great for forcing switches if you can give Espeon significant hazard support, as your opponent will eventually have to surrender something to sleep. If he/she doesn't have a sleep absorber, this is huge.

    Grass Knot: Again, extremely important for nailing Groudon, Hippowdon, and most Kyogre for the 2HKO. It also does severe damage to Arceus-Water and Arceus-Rock (outside of sand), which Espeon would otherwise struggle with. If Espeon forego's Hidden Power Fighting, this is Espeon's best option against TTar as it will take a solid chunk out of it (~35% to standard TTar with investment in special defense).

    Hidden Power Fire: In sunlight, it OHKO's Forretress if Sturdy breaks and prevents predictable Genesect switch-ins from doing anything before dying a fiery death. It also mauls Ferrothorn and Scizor. Unfortunately, HP Fire is weather dependent; it is weak if the opponent has Rain up.

    Hidden Power Fighting: This is easily Espeon's best move against Dialga. Offensive Dialga will take close to 50% from this move, whereas specially defensive (252-200) Dialga will take 27-30% or so from it. That isn't a desirable number, but two solid hits from HP Fighting will hopefully weaken it enough from preventing SR from going up. Specially defensive Dialga is such a nightmare for Sun teams with Ho-Oh that HP Fighting is often worth it. HP Fighting also takes a nice 40% out of standard TTar, increasing your chances of winning the weather war.

    Shadow Ball: 2HKO's all Deoxys-S cleanly. Deoxys-S cannot 2HKO Espeon back unless it runs something gimmicky like Dark Pulse or its own Shadow Ball. It also hits Mewtwo fairly hard, and is its only option for breaking Lugia's substitutes (not that Lugia can do much to Espeon anyway). Finally, it hits 4/0/0 Swords Dance Ghostceus hard, preventing it from setting up safely.

    Psyshock: Espeon's strongest move. It prevents Espeon from becoming set-up bait for Ho-Oh and hits stuff like Palkia harder than its other options. Remember, Espeon has a nice 130 Special Attack stat, so it can legitimately do some damage with this move. Unfortunately, Psychic is a terrible offensive typing, so the only Arceus forms that fear Psyshock are Fightceus and the uncommon Poisonceus.

    Because Espeon must forego 2 of these moves, it will always be vulnerable to something. For example, I run Shadow Ball/HP Fire/Yawn/Grass Knot on my Espeon. The lack of HP Fighting means that Support Dialga destroys it, and losing Psyshock means that Espeon cannot do anything to Fightceus or Ho-Oh except force them out with Yawn (if my opponent has a Sleep Talker, this will only temporarily protect Espeon from these threats). Xatu doesn't have the 4MSS nearly as bad as Espeon, as a Heat Wave/Status Move/Roost/Night Shade is all the support set needs. Likewise, it sets screens better due to its better defensive typing.

    Despite Espeon's many flaws (severe 4MSS, bad typing, awful bulk) it does have a few things going for it. A good movepool and reasonable 130 Special Attack stat means that unlike Xatu, it can actually threaten pokemon other than ones 4x weak to fire moves. It's excellent 110 Speed stat allows Espeon to outrun many threats Xatu cannot, such as Palkia and Garchomp. Since Xatu rarely run max speed, Espeon can outpace more threats that that. Finally, Yawn is a terrific way to force switches, whereas Xatu must resort to Toxic which will not work against Steel types or Tentacruel. Overall, even though Espeon is an average choice for an Ubers team, I feel it is good enough to warrant a spot on teams that need Magic Bounce support but don't need Screens.
  23. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Actually, I've run Calm Mind Xatu (for the funsies) with CM / Heat Wave / Grass Knot / Roost and it is surprisingly effective. Unlike Espeon, Xatu can break actually hurt stall teams somewhat because it's immune to Roar and status, so if you get rid of Giratina and other Dragon Tail mons (not really threats at all if entry hazards are blocked), you can put quite a bit of pressure on them. Espeon's recovery move has less PP and is less reliable due to the prevalence of rain in Ubers. Xatu CAN run an offensive set as well.

    I seriously see no reason why Espeon is "clearly" better than Xatu. From my experience using both, it's clearly the other way around. I don't care if Espeon has 4x the usage as Xatu, that has little relevance to how viable they are. If you're judging a Pokemon's worth on their ladder usage in Ubers, you are sorely mistaken. Offensive presence isn't that relevant either when you consider that Espeon is still weak enough to be set up fodder for a lot of things. What really matters, is what you're using either of them for. You're using them to block entry hazards, for God's sake. Which is more reliable at that? On one hand, you have Espeon, who can block entry hazards a couple of times a match at best, or you have Xatu who could cockblock most dedicated entry hazard layers repeatedly and even have a chance of stopping them going up against more dangerous leads such as Dialga, with some prediction. In the sun (in which Espy is being used on), Espeon gets 2HKOed by Fire Punch Deoxys-S. So you get your Espeon 2HKOed by Fire Punch with a Deos-S and Focus Sash intact. Your Ho-oh is still fucked. Xatu can at least tank two Fire Punches, spam Roost until you can take 2 more, then whittle Deo-S down with Heat Wave. What's the point of running Espeon or Xatu again? With either one of Dual Screens or Calm Mind, Xatu tends to block hazards with more reliability than Espeon, which is its primary job. Xatu tends to either threaten stall (with CM) or set up screens while blocking hazards (additional utility), while Espeon tends to just die. You're virtually playing 5-6 with Espeon. At least with Xatu you're playing like 5.5-6

    Anyway, I'm not here to debate which Magic Bouncer is better, but to look at how viable Espeon is in Ubers. Regardless of what I've been saying about Espeon vs Xatu, I do believe Espeon deserves an analysis it does have a (VERY small) niche. What I do want to stress though, is that in no way is this thing to be hyped in any way. The analysis needs to highlight:

    1) Why you'd use thing over Xatu (because no, it is NOT better than Xatu)
    2) Its numerous flaws

    Do that and I will approve.
  24. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    This is so wrong on so many levels.
    Xatu has vastly inferior special attack and speed compared to Espeon, so how can you even suggest that "Xatu can hurt things unlike Espeon"?
    Replace Heat Wave with HP Fire and Roost with Morning Sun and Espeon can run that exact same set, but better, in the sun.
    In the rain Espeon can't make use of Morning Sun, but are you honestly suggesting that Xatu could do much better with Grass Knot alone as its attacking move (since both HP Fire and Heat Wave will barely deal damage)? In the sand Xatu performs slightly better, but it's the least common weather of the 3.

    Secondly, if you're attempting to boost with CM, it has to be lategame after Dragon Tail Lugia/Groudon/Giratina-A/Giratina-O are no longer around. Good luck, really. What are the chances Xatu is going to outlast them? Very, very slim.

    So we should judge it based on *your* personal experience?
    Sorry, but I'll trust the ladder data over your feelings any day.

    Again, you're completely wrong. You're overhyping Xatu's non-existant bulk and offensive presence while completely dismissing Espeon's, who is better at both.

    You're acting like Xatu's 65/70/70 defenses are better than Espeon's 65/60/95. It's only slightly bulkier on the physical side, while not being nearly as bulky on the special side as Espeon is. Xatu is overall less bulky than Espeon, especially in a tier where special attacks are more common than physical attacks. Of course you'll now use the argument that Xatu is investing in defense and Espeon isn't, but why can't Espeon do it as well? Espeon could forego its higher speed and run a "bulky" EV spread like most Xatus do and do the job better most of the time.

    Then you say that Espeon is "weak enough to be set up fodder" - are you implying that Xatu is any better? Espeon's special attack is much higher and Xatu's only offensive advantage is access to Heat Wave, which will do similiar damage to Espeon's HP Fire thanks to the latter's much higher special attack. Night Shade in a tier where it can't even 4HKO things isn't a good idea.


    If anything it's Xatu that has a small niche compared to Espeon.
    Both are heavily flawed pokemon, but Espeon is more reliable on offensive teams thanks to its higher offensive presence and speed.
    Xatu's only notable advantage is access to Roost which means it can reliably recover HP in sand and rain teams (not like they need a Magic Bounce user in the first place).
  25. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Except Morning Sun sucks because rain is easily the most common weather condition in Ubers. See, Xatu can use Roost to heal 50% while stuff like Kyogre switch in (which is quite normal). Espeon is getting back 25% which means shit like Deo-S would outlast you if he Fire Punches you (which is what happened when I used Espeon). Trust me, I used that exact same set you described (Calm Mind / Morning Sun / Grass Knot / HP Fire), and Xatu was better for that exact reason that he can take shit from Deo-S and Espeon can't.

    You'd trust a ladder where Charizard is relatively commonplace? You'd trust ladder stats when people use shit like Hypnosis/Dream Eater Darkrai and Roar of Time Dialga? Okay. I'm judging it partially on my own experience, but I'm not the only one who thinks it's shit. Espeon is lower on the Ubers viability thread for a reason. It was also rejected previously by QC for a good reason too. Oh, and I'd trust my feelings over the ladder any day because you know, I'm a QC member and I judge sets and analyses by what I see, not what I'm told. It comes with the job description, you see.

    Yet, Xatu's access to Roost is what makes it so much better as a Magic Bouncer than Espeon. Both's frailty plays little part in this. I'm not saying Xatu is bulky, but what I am saying is that he has the tools to repeatedly stop entry hazards. Espeon cannot reliably stop entry hazards repeatedly in the game, which is why I'm saying Xatu is better. Why else would you use Espeon in Ubers? Your job is to stop entry hazards going up, not to start killing things. I'd use Mewtwo if I wanted to do that. Espeon gets 2HKOed by Deo-S, can't repeatedly stop Ferrothorn and Forretress, and it can't switch into Groudon using Earthquake (which you know, is its STAB move). I guess you could say Xatu can't switch into Stone Edge, but Groudon is more willing to use Earthquake than it would Stone Edge. On the other hand, I have Xatu who can actually reliably stop dedicated entry hazard layers. For Espeon, it has more offensive presence, but what are you doing with that offensive presence? What are you going to kill with those weak Psyshocks/HP Fires/Grass Knots? I guess you could say Groudon, but Groudon isn't staying in. So why do you care about that bit of extra offensive presence if you're compensating the reliability of your primary goal, which is to stop entry hazards? You're losing sight of your target and getting sidetracked by something else.

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