Future Pokemon Suspects.

[QibingZero]

Alright, I want to address each part of this separately.


Ho-oh

I agree with Maniaclyrisist for the most part. Ho-oh is extremely strong, and with SR as it's only real negative factor it sends a troublesome statement to team builders: use SR if you want any hope of dealing with me. Due to the fact that SR is almost 'required' right now anyway (because of how difficult it is to cover many threats without it), I don't think this alone is a good enough argument to discourage testing. However, what I think will put it over the edge is that fire/flying is a great typing in the current metagame. For instance:

Scizor's Swords Danced Life Orb Bullet Punch vs min/min Ho-oh: 788 Atk vs 216 Def & 353 HP (60 Base Power):153 - 180 (43.34% - 50.99%)

Ho-oh only needs 32HP EVs or 20Def EVs to guarantee survival after SR. If carrying Leftovers, it doesn't need anything. Ho-oh will easily outspeed and OHKO with [fire move], so Bullet Punch is the 'best' option.

Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast vs min/min Ho-oh: 359 Atk vs 344 Def & 353 HP (120 Base Power): 67 - 80 (18.98% - 22.66%)

That doesn't come close to 2HKOing after SR. It needs a Flash Fire boost (and even then Ho-oh could guarantee survival without too much trouble if it wanted).

Infernape's Nasty Plotted Life Orb Fire Blast vs min/min Ho-oh: 614 Atk vs 344 Def & 353 HP (120 Base Power): 149 - 176 (42.21% - 49.86%)

Once again, survives after SR. Fire Blast is literally the best option both those pokemon have against Ho-oh without changing their sets. Maybe they'd start to run HP rock as a result, though. In Infernape's case, Lati@s' existence really hurts it's special sets anyway, so it would likely run SD sets more often than anything.

Those were just a couple calcs I ran out of curiousity. Even assuming SR, Ho-oh with no defensive EVs whatsoever can still serve as a useful check to some of the most used pokemon. No defense EVs whatsoever. Coupled with the rest of the argument (that is: how difficult Ho-oh is going to be to handle once it's in, and the whole 'forces SR' bit), I'm having a hard time believing that a test will be worthwhile.

The only interesting factor I could see here would be that suicide leads might become less popular due to the fact that spinning might become more reasonable as it would allow you to get Ho-oh in easy-style. That would mean people would start relying more on rockers who could actually come back in a few times.


Deoxys-D

Nothing fancy here, I just simply don't see why this is considered to be a suspect. Some of my original serious posting here at Smogon was done because I truly feel that the general playerbase is much more prone to seeing an offensive threat as a problem than a support or defensive one. This is no different, as far as I can tell. It learns a ridiculous amount of support options, and has no trouble setting them up. It's your all-purpose support pokemon, and can run all manner of sets.

I think DX-D best makes this point, though: If not for Tyranitar, would we even be talking about these Psychic types being potentially 'okay' for the standard metagame? Every single time we have one mentioned the main topic of discussion is: 'How does it deal with Tyranitar?' It's even worse than when we say Ho-oh is worthy of consideration due to the presence of SR, because at least SR is a move learned by a good chunk of pokemon. Tyranitar is a single Pokemon.

And no, it's not just Pursuit or a strong STAB Dark move. Weavile and others have a much more difficult time switching in to these pokemon than Tyranitar does, for various reasons.


Mew

I'm absolutely in agreement that Mew isn't a suspect.


Manaphy

This one is really tough. This is one of the few currently Uber pokemon I actually thought deserved a chance originally (without Kyogre, of course!). I still hold true to that, but I would have some concern about the power of Rain Teams in general. It's amazing what a UU rain team can do in standard, but when you add Manaphy to that, things could get crazy. I like the idea of this test, though. Surely, a lot of people would run rain, but at the same time I don't feel it would be centralized toward that due to the many different type of teams available (and weather changing being a good strategy). Also, Manaphy has a big moveslot issue with deciding to carry Rain Dance itself or not.


OHKO/Evasion clauses:

We've beaten these to death and gotten nowhere. I'm going to follow Jump's 'at what point do we start caring about time' and make an appeal here:

Does anyone truly believe that these would help the metagame? Hell, even really change the metagame?

Honestly, I just see these as suspects that we would test with the intention of being both extremely thorough and true to the suspect philosophy. Unlike the top tier 'possibly Uber' threats, these would likely only affect a small part of the game (in what I and others believe to be a purely negative way), and possibly an uncompetitive part anyway.


Species Clause:

I'll admit it, this sounds fun. But that's all it is. Sure, participation wouldn't be as big of an issue (at least at first), but I view this kind of thing as a potential 'fun on the side' metagame rather than anything competitive. There are just too many problems, and such a drastic change in the ruleset means we'd likely have to go through the suspect process for all kinds of things all over again.

Like the OHKO/Evasion clauses, this appeals to the side of me which would like the DPPt metagame to at some point actually be stabilized (rather than the side which is open toward testing everything). In this case, it seems like we'd be testing things for quite a long time.


Soul Dew:

I have my own reservations on just Lati@s themselves, but this is another story. With Soul Dew available, pokemon becomes a 'Do I have to run Tyranitar to deal with Lati@s?' game. The answer seems to be a resounding yes. At the very least, Lati@s in general provoke a very 'necessary' switch in of a physical threat. Even without Soul Dew, there are few 'good' switch ins, and since all of those threaten physical attacks, Reflect is never wasted. This kind of 'forcing the action' is extremely powerful, and when you realize that Lati@s with Soul Dew can also laughably switch into most any special attack with no EV investment at all, it begins to dictate the entire battle on it's own.

We saw a glimpse of this on the Latias suspect test, when double switching out of Latias was ridiculously effective. When playing against such dangerous threats, you just can't afford not to switch in your only hope of dealing with them. Imagine that amplified with Soul Dew, where we would have even more to worry about than just the Dragon-Steel typing war. Mostly because even the steels have trouble taking a Surf/Draco Meteor combo.

No offense here, but I don't really see why we feel this test is necessary. I've noticed that most people seem to agree with that sentiment, and I suggest we don't test Soul Dew at all (especially if Latios is found Uber). If there is truly compelling reasoning to test them, I'd suggest we held off until after we see what happens with Latias in standard play for a while.


Salamence:

Even if IPL is a jerk and doesn't actually explain himself , I'm glad he posted to mention Salamence here. I believe the Latias test opened a lot of people up to the fact that mence may actually fit the idea of Uber 'better' than many of the current Ubers themselves. I myself have a very difficult time explaining why I think certain Ubers are not suspects without in the same breath condemning Salamence. Maybe after thinking it through I can feel more justified in doing so.

A large part of the current standard metagame seems to revolve around how many times Salamence can get in and threaten a switch. There's no doubt that Salamence is the most difficult pokemon to switch into, and you never want to willingly give it a switch in. It's part of the reason we've stopped using the word counter and now say 'check'. When I start thinking of the difficulties of switching into Lati@s, I can only think 'Well, at least it's not Salamence'. It's really (almost) that bad. Mence is usually only shut down by the time you know it's set - which means it's likely killed something already (or will soon). We all know the scenarios, so I don't need to outline it here. Switch the wrong pokemon into the wrong Salamence, and something is dying. Hell, the whole Ice Shard defense pretty much relies on something dying to work in the first place, and at times it seems that mence escapes the Offensive Characteristic only as a result of strong priority moves. The timing of Scizor's Bullet Punch has especially been a huge factor in that.

However, I believe Salamence does fulfill our definition of an Uber in some sense. With SR and priority attacks, it's limited in it's ability to actually sweep your opponent's entire team. On the other hand, it actually provides an inordinate amount of support for your other pokemon due to it's raw power and sheer unpredictability. It either destroys something, weakens multiple pokemon before a true 'check' comes in, or both. Mixmence especially fits the definition, as the only real defense is to 'play around it', which basically means outpredict. I hear this quite a bit too. 'Oh Salamence isn't that bad, just [play around it/use good prediction]' Gengar seemed a bit like this in early DP, but it relied on two 70% accuracy moves to do so (and now that Hypnosis is 60% and Scizor has Bullet Punch, things are even worse for it). It also wasn't much of a physical threat, either.

Realistically though, while some pokemon require a lot more prediction than others, nothing comes close to Salamence. It's not just about the fact it can run CB, Specs, mixed, DD, and other sets either. It's that even if you know it's set, it's still likely to smash you if you predict incorrectly. Again, there's no need for me to make this any more complex than it needs to be - we all know the serious threat Salamence poses, and we don't need to see the calcs for the thousandth time. The real thought here is whether or not we believe Salamence actually fits into the definition that we've decided upon. Are these factors telling enough to consider testing it as a suspect? Does it fit the Offensive Characteristic? Does it fit the Support Characteristic in an unseen way?




To sum up, if it were my decision, I would choose the order of:

Latios
Salamence
Manaphy
-------
Possible Clause Tests after a settled metagame


Latios is obvious, as we're testing that currently. I really think that if there is agreement on Salamence (and I might be reaching on that one), it's more important than Manaphy. I was happy to see that the plans are to test the pokemon before the clauses, as I think we'd all be more willing to sit down and discuss that stuff after we have the tiering worked out. In any case, I feel most of the reasonable suspects have already been tested for the time being, and that we are well on the way to getting toward stage 3 and finding that fabled 'stable metagame'.

 

[Stallion]

I mainly agree with reachzero on this one, and have structured my order as such:

Latios (without Soul Dew)
Manaphy
Ho-oh
Deoxys-D
Latias (with Soul Dew)
Latios (with Soul Dew)
OHKO Clause
Evasion Clause (I really don't think it should be tested tbh, but if it is then so be it).

The ones that are bolded are the ones I'm really iffy on.

 

[reachzero]

I'm glad that someone(s) finally got up the nerve to really talk about Salamence, I think a number of us were thinking about it without really bringing up the subject because no one wants to be the crazy user that wants to ban everything. I've been giving this subject a lot of thought, and it's probably time to talk it through more fully.

First let me confess that I am suspicious of any Pokemon that can be clearly identified as the "best OU Pokemon" at any time. While being the "best" does not necessarily mean that it will meet any of the clauses to be considered Uber, it does mean that it deserves a closer examination. By now, most of us know what Salamence is like and how it is commonly used. Specifically, Salamence is commonly used for three roles:

1. Sweeper: The Dragon Dance set is the one that comes most naturally to mind; a Salamence used in this way is likely to forgo recovery moves in favor of doing maximum damage in one run. A Salamence used this way is not hurt as badly by its Stealth Rock weakness, but is vulnerable to revenge killing by priority users, and is not quite as great a threat as it could be because of its dependence on Outrage to do killing damage. Comparisons with Garchomp are inevitable, but Swords Dance allowed for more raw damage than Dragon Dance, and STAB Earthquake meant that Garchomp was not nearly as dependent on Outrage as Salamence is. By itself, sweeper Mence is a known quantity, comparable to Gyarados in many ways in terms of power.
2. Wall-Breaker: The various MixMence sets are representative; Salamence used in this way is not attempting to sweep, but to maximize damage to one or two enemy Pokemon each time it switches in. This makes a match very prediction-heavy, as a correct prediction will likely result in a kill, but an incorrect prediction will force Salamence to switch out, which is very harmful considering its weakness to Stealth Rock. Unlike most other wall-breakers, Salamence can do massive damage to literally every Pokemon in the metagame with good prediction with a single set. It is difficult to determine how this ability applies to Offensive and Support clauses. Where does a Pokemon fit that can kill any Pokemon one-on-one with a single set (on the switch, that is), but can't sweep a whole team?
3. Support: BulkyMence, represented by the Wish passer and ToxicStaller, is fairly unremarkable and clearly OU. It needs little comment here.

Considering the impact on any given match and the metagame on a whole, it is hard to evaluate to what degree Salamence meets the Offensive or Support Clauses, so I would not mind considering Salamence a Suspect, personally. However, I see Salamence as being on the "upper limit" of OU, a classic example of a "boundary" Pokemon like Skymin, so any decision made concerning it is certain to have dissenting voices. However, testing Mence would be a major challenge for a practical methodological reason: how do we test Suspects that are traditionally OU? In Garchomp's case, we simply removed it from the metagame on the Suspect ladder. Yet how does that test to what extent the Suspect meets the Offensive, Defensive, or Support Clauses? Even if the decision is made that testing Salamence is unnecessary (which would be understandable), this methodological question will remain, and it would be wise to address it now. Would we simply say, "We know what the Suspect is like already, let's discuss it and then vote"? How would we select voters? Even asking the question of testing a Pokemon that has been OU up until this point is difficult.

 

[lilyhollow]

I think the notion of testing Salamence is quite frankly absurd, and lends credence to Colin's viewpoint that the Pokemon community is simply "ban-happy." Pokemon is not supposed to be a perfectly balanced game, nor will it be if we try to make it so. There will be "best pokemon," and certainly in 4th gen there have always been and will always be extremely powerful and unpredictable sweepers. As far as I'm concerned, none of these issues (or anything you listed) are particularly threatening, or make me want to consider a Salamence test any more than I did pre-Latias, pre-Platinum, or even pre-DP; DDmence is still a "very solid sweeper and that's about it," "mixmence gets kills when you guess right!" etc., just like it always was, but perhaps more importantly, just like a number of different pokemon throughout this series' lifespan. Wasn't Garchomp in an almost identical situation, several months before we actually found an arguably good reason to finally ban it which had literally nothing whatsoever to do with "unpredictability?"

I'm just not convinced that a Salamence test would even make sense at this point, considering the things we've tested and the decisions we've made in the past. This is all completely ignoring the fact that we're pretty much heading in the opposite direction right now, and that another "OU Suspect" test would inevitably complicate things to at least some extent. It wouldn't even seem "worth it" to me if Salamence were more comparable to Garchomp or whatever, and I'd probably just be telling people to wait until Stage 3 or something.

 

[Colonel M]

If we're considering something such as Salamence a suspect, perhaps we should put this sort of discussion in a seperate topic. Just so we don't flood this topic with the argument.

As for now, I'm against testing Salamence. Theoretically, MixMence can hamper the metagame. Same logic applies to DDSalamence. But even so, Salamence has it's own problems. It's not liking Sandstorm damage, Life Orb recoil, and factoring Stealth Rock into the mix as well. It's not only weak to Ice and Dragon, but also weak to a type that is fairly common: Rock.

I guess I'll go further into the discussion if there is a seperate topic. Until then, I think I'll say "no".

 

[gengod]

Honestly, what can really be said about Salamence that would even justify it being Uber that is not applicable to Dragonite?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I think we need a bit more input into it before we fire off a thread on Mence.

If we're ban happy why did we just unban Latias? Its our goal to strive for as much of a balanced metagame as possible and with this Suspect process we are doing that. In D/P/Pt Salamence has a number of moves that it can abuse that it did not have in R/S/E.

Despite having those weaknesses though Salamence has the unique ability to OHKO/2HKO all of OU. I agree with reachzero that Life Orb Mixmence is an absolute beast. There is no 100% safe switch-in for OU to that set. If someone predicts wrong when dealing with it they are down one or more pokés.

Edit: Dragonite is slower and doesn't hit as hard on the special side, Salamence has a lot more going for it with a base 100 Speed, Intimidate, etc.

 

[reachzero]

Let me reiterate (or possibly clarify) that I personally am far from convinced that Salamence is Uber. I believe that it is borderline, and therefore questionable. It is my understanding that Pokemon become Suspects when they are suspected of being inappropriately tiered. They are not guilty until proven innocent, so I see no harm in bringing it up as a question. The subject has not even been seriously discussed up to now, and I think it at least merits discussion. To Maniaclyrasist, I haven't seen as many Dragonites as I have Salamences, so it would be hard for me to say how much better or worse Dragonite is at sweeping or wall-breaking. However, I would like to draw attention back to the question of how we would go about testing any traditionally OU Pokemon that became a Suspect.

 

[Articanus]

I can't remember who exactly said it but I remember seeing this discussion come up in an earlier time, but truth be told there will be pokemon that based on unpredictability will wreck you: truth be told, Salamence has power behind it, but then again so does a pokemon like Lucario and it is unpredictable as well: in fact, it is immune to SS, Toxic, resistant 4x to SR, and has four different stat up moves along with a shit load of priority to comensate for a lack of speed and it gets just the right moves to take out it's counters: and it has the benefit of doing all this without having to worry about being locked into Outrage either.

Then again Salamence and Lucario aren't exactly comparable to how they play, but their predictability and power and ability to sweep teams is nothing to undermine.

Anyway, this is what I think should be tested in what order:

OHKO Clause
Latios (without Soul Dew)
Manaphy
Ho-oh
Deoxys-D
Latias (with Soul Dew)
Latios (with Soul Dew)
Evasion Clause

Yes I realize that Latios is being tested currently: so why did I place OHKOs first? Well to start my point off:

Does anyone truly believe that these would help the metagame? Hell, even really change the metagame?

No, I do not think that they would change the metagame, except for maybe a bit more Articunos+Smeargles, while also possibly decreasing the use for Machamp(thank god!). But if the reason "because it doesn't matter" was a proper argument, I would suggest that every single NFE be banned that couldn't competitively be used, along with pokemon like Unown, who is overshadowed in every way by Azelf. Why wouldn't we: it wouldn't make a difference. As long as we apply that to OHKOs we should go the whole stretch and apply it to everything else.

So really, long story short: it doesn't conflict with Latios testing and we can speed the whole suspect testing process up. With it being such a small factor anyway, I'm sure we can determine OHKO's "uberness" within a shorter time frame

Edit: Jumpman don't forget Latios, if it is deemed OU it would also have an impact on Salamence's usage.

 

[Jumpman16]

Brief note: I think that we should let the currently uber Suspects be handled before considering Salamence. Why? Ask Latias. The currently uber Suspects may curb the usage of any standard pokemon we may think are Suspect.

 

[Bologo]

From the Wynaut thread, have we decided whether we're going to try and test Wynaut in OU, or are we going to leave it in ubers since it plays similarly to Wobbuffet?

Sorry to repeat this, but I'm not sure we reached a conclusion in the Wynaut thread itself as to thing's status. People weren't as one-sided as they were with Wobb because of the lower defenses & speed, and it was just recently moved to uber from UU, so I'm not sure if this is a suspect or not.

Anyway, in relation to the topic at hand, I'd like the order to be:

Manaphy
Deoxys-D
Ho-oh
Latias SD
Latios SD
OHKO
Evasion

Let me explain why. The first three, I put in order of what would most likely be voted OU. I wasn't completely sure whether to put DX-D over Ho-oh or not. However, as was already mentioned in this thread, if you don't have Stealth Rock on every team, Ho-oh is most likely going to become a huge pain to deal with. While Deoxys-D will most like be a pain as well, it doesn't require Stealth Rock to comfortably check.

Though I'm still not sure whether they should be tested, I put Latias SD and Latios SD after the other 3 suspects. I just believe that in order to prevent boredum from the community, we really need to try and keep the suspects fresh, and after testing 3 more suspects, Latias SD and Latios SD will feel a lot more fresh than if we did them right after we just tested them without SD.

I don't really have any preference of the order of the clause tests. However, for reasons already mentioned in this thread, I really don't think that the species clause is worth our time. The main reason for me, is that it's a completely different metagame without species clause, essentially OU 2, which would take too long to test. Same reason why I argued against testing Stealth Rock.

 

[gengod]

If we're ban happy why did we just unban Latias?

We unbanned 1 Pokemon in comparison to the 6 Pokemon we have already banned. Now in addition to this, a lot of people would also like to ban Stealth Rock, some people have mentioned banning Dual Screen and now we want to ban Salamence. If this isn't being ban happy then I don't know what is.

Despite having those weaknesses though Salamence has the unique ability to OHKO/2HKO all of OU. I agree with reachzero that Life Orb Mixmence is an absolute beast. There is no 100% safe switch-in for OU to that set.

There is no 100% safe switch-in for OU for Dragonite, neither is there one for Gengar or Lucario...etc. This argument has been brought up many times and it applies to just too many Pokemon currently in OU for it to hold much weight.

Edit: Dragonite is slower and doesn't hit as hard on the special side, Salamence has a lot more going for it with a base 100 Speed, Intimidate, etc.

I'm aware of the obvious differences between the two but what I'm saying is that do you honestly think those differences are enough to say Salamence should be Uber while Dragonite is not? Having 20 more Base Speed, Intimidate and 10 more Base Special Attack just doesn't quite cut it for me considering how similar their movesets generally are.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'm really late here, but I agree that Ho-oh and Mew shouldn't be considered as suspects.

However, I would like to take the time to propose Jirachi and Togekiss as suspects in the metagame. If Skymin can get banned for having too much of a luck factor, then these two pokemon that actually have good typing, defenses and movepools, with more of a luck factor should also be banned under the same premise. When Platinum was introduced, Skymin was not a threat to many of the most commonly used pokemon, yet a 75 base power move with a mildly annoying flinch rate was deemed too lucky to warrant competitive play. What about Togekiss, who has access to Thunder Wave and with its reliable recovery is basically impossible to revenge kill from the special side? Or Jirachi, who can come into a lot more things and then set up with Iron Head and TWave, while actually being able to threaten your opponent OTHER than by abusing luck?

I mean, I know there is always the next stage of testing to unban Skymin, but if we are going to use this logic then we might as well be consistent!

As for Salamence, if it wasn't part Flying, or if it got Swords Dance, I would support it being a suspect. Unfortunately for it, Dragon Dance, SR weak and Life Orb isn't nearly as good as SD + Yache + SR resist and Salamence just can't muster anywhere near the same strength that Garchomp could. I do not consider it a suspect at all.

Also, as far as rules go, I have already voiced my opinions on Evasion and OHKO Clause in this TPR forum. I don't think that our rules are too complex or restrictive.

 

[gengod]

It still hasnt been decided what should be listed as a future suspect as of yet and we only have two more tests to run through. In my opinion we should still test Deoxys-D but Ho-oH and Mew are defintely big "no ways" for me.

 

[Aldaron]

I think Deoxys-D should DEFINITELY be tested. And, unlike a lot of unexperienced theorymon that goes on, I am basing this on a small sample of experience.

The libelldra server on shoddy, for the limited time it was up, unbanned most of the suspects and we got to try them out. Admittedly it was pre-plat and not in isolation, so it's not 100% the same at all, but I have to mention one important trend: Deoxys-D was NOTHING on it.

People are really overestimating its potential. I ask that we simply make it a suspect and try it out for ourselves. If it is "obviously uber" like some people for some reason are claiming, then, like Soul Dew Latias, it should be evident in the first week or two weeks, and we can stop it. I earnestly do not believe it is obvious at all.

I'm an absolute no on Mew, and iffy on Ho-oH. I think it is stronger than Deoxys-D but I still kinda think we should try it out.

I'm think it's important we decide this quickly because I would prefer if we suspect tested all the Pokes before we suspect test the clauses.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I would be for a test of Deoxys-D. Those defensive stats sure are impressive combined with Recover, but it really doesn't have any resistances or a tankish HP stat to back them up. It's movepool may be one of the best in the game, but it certainly won't be qualifying for "offensive uber" or "defensive uber". Even Calm Mind variants wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight in this metagame. The question would only be if Screens + Spikes + Recover + Taunt are too "supportive" to keep it from being OU, and that is something I'd be willing to test. I was originally against this change...but then I started playing again and I really don't think this thing would be too much to handle.

Mew is pretty obviously not a suspect. If someone wants me to elaborate, I can try...but for now I'm just going to give this a resounding "no".

Ho-oh may have that glaring SR weakness, but its defenses more than make up for it. 106/90/154 defenses, resistance to Steel, Bug, Fighting, Fire, Grass (4x), the fact that it is neutral to Ice instead of weak to it and an immunity to Ground (the most common attack type) AND it gets Recover/Roost to boot...hardly anything in OU would be able to break it without SR, and even with SR it won't go down without a fight. I feel like people are really underestimating this things defensive potential. With this typing and its stats, Ho-oh would have nearly, if not the best defense in OU. I think quibing's damage calcs at the top of the page help to reinforce this point. Calm Mind and Thunderbolt would make Water-types basically useless, and Sacred Fire turns switching into punishment. It may not have blatantly Uber typing or offensive stats, but the combination of being able to beat its counters with no effort and being able to abuse the shit out of those defenses + movepool make me really confused as to why people think it is a suspect.

 

[RBG]

Posting this for theorymon about a pokemon that, with my other topic I meant to say it should be a suspect, but didnt word myself well enough

There has been a potential suspect that I think has not been discussed in this Thread, Wynaut. When Wobbuffet got banned, Wynaut was banned along with it. When the UU tests began, Wynaut was paradoxly allowed in UU, but baned in OU. This lead to Wynaut becoming Uber in all tiers without any testing as this thread shows. Many people seemed to be reluctant to test Wynaut because unlike Gabite, Wynaut was a pre-evo who attempts the same job that got its evo banned. How ever, there is one key factor that could potentialy make Wynaut a suspect: His base HP. Unlike Wobbuffet, Wynaut only has a base HP of 95, effectivly making Wynaut's defenses worse than Ramprados!

One of the reasons Wobbuffet was banned was because of the tickle+encore strategy (detailed here). Wynaut can still pull off this strategy, but the base 95 HP is a huge problem when paired with 48 base defenses. For example, if a timid Wynaut with 252 hp evs switches in to a Hipowdon's Earthquake, it takes around 50% minimum. With tickle factored in, Wynnaut is still 3HKOed! Timid Wobbuffet could easily sawp in on Hipowdon and only take 37% max from its Earthquakes, a much easier number to swallow. All Hipowdon has to do to Tickle Wynaut is Earthquake on the switch! Many other members of stall teams, such as Zapdos and Rotom easly 2HKO timid Wynaut, while Celebi, Vaporeon and Tentecruel 3HKO, and Skarmory has a 99% chance to 2HKO timid Wynaut with Brave Bird after Stealth Rock.

There are 3 primary OU Pokemon that can not 3HKO Timid Wynaut, and thus have problems with it; Blissey, Brongzong, and Forretress. Wynaut must be careful about Forretress, as encoring Spikes would mean that at least 2 layers of spikes go up. As anyone who has used Wobbuffet to do this before knows, letting entry hazards going up the freely can cause problems for the team later! Plus, acording to the Feburary statistics, 20% of Forretress had shed shell, and 32% of Skarmory had Shed Shell. Thus, Skarmory and Forretress can easily set up on Wynaut! Brongzong and Blissey don't seem to have much of a way to handle Wynaut, but both Brongzong and Blissey are often considered set up bait anyways, so is Wynaut really needed to beat them?

Wynaut can forgo the tickle strategy and use the classic Wobbuffet set as well, but once again, Wynaut's base hp screws it over. Wynaut is praticly 2HKOed by almost every offensive pokemon in OU! For example, Neutral Natrued Heatran with max special attack does 55% minimum to a Calm max HP max Special Defense Wynaut with Fire Blast! Obvously, CB Scizor and Tyranitar blast Wynaut's ass to the Twilight Zone!

Part of the reason why Wobbuffet was so effictive (and still is in Ubers :D) is because of that huge 190 base HP, Wynaut loses the only good stat that his big brother had! Without the huge hp stat, Wynaut can not afford to mindlessly switch in on choice users without getting 2HKOed, and Wynaut must pratcily kill its self in order to set up on most pokemon in OU. While the above is all theorymon (lol), Wynaut should still get the test it deserves. Hell, if people are suggesting pokemon like Ho-oh be tested, and if Soul Dew Latias is really geting a test, Why not let Wynaut get a test (pun intended), he doesn't seem like an absurd suggestion when compared to Ho-oh!

 

[Elevator Music]

Theorymon basically summed up why Wynaut should at least be suspect.

This has always been my opinion of the littlest uber and I'm glad he worded it so well.

 

[Tleilax]

I agree that Wynaut should be tested. I think it would be telling really quick, so whether a full-out suspect test is necessary is up for debate. I think an abbreviated one would do fine, since we know what it can do. We just need to see how well it does it.

I also think Deoxys-D is worthy of a test. For all the theorymon about him having too many options and the defenses to take advantage of them, in a metagame with the powerhouse options we have available, along with the abundance of Trick users, he might not be as bad as we believed.

I am completely against Mew and Ho-oh. I don't think Ho-oh would even be considered if not for SR, and if that move alone makes him worthy of consideration I don't think we should bother.

 

[Veedrock]

Blasted Theorymon, forcing me to post.

----

I know that Jumpman really wants (or wanted?) to test Soul Dew, but after seeing Latios take his Uber leave, is this test really necessary? I used to think "it should at least be tested," but Latios was overwhelming enough, an Auto-CM Latias wouldn't be any less threatening.

----

Veednaut here was making a Stark Thread for Wynaut and was near completion too. Not surprisingly, Theorymon of all people pipes up and suggests it for testing before I get it out. I was a pretty strong advocate for having Wynaut tested in the past (EM can confirm this), under the presumption that it could be dealt with realtively easily in OU. Later damage calcs and statistics swayed my confidence in his tier position.

Wynaut, like all pokemon, has its pros and cons. On one side, it can mess stall up pretty bad. However, even with max speed and a scarf, it falls short like 7 points of a crucial speed number (Jolly T-Tar, a common number for a LOT of defensive pokemon), making a quick switch and encore hard to manage. And without scarf, against an offensive team, I figured Wynaut would be a burden more than a benefit. I was mistaken.

As Theorymon points out, Heatran can 2HKO a max/max+ Wynaut. What's not taken into consideration here is that Heatran is one of the most powerful pokemon in OU with 130 Special Attack; to top it off, he's using a move with 180 Base Power. That's tremendously strong and dents even those that resist it. It takes that much to 2HKO this thing. A little less power will miss the mark (though Stealth Rock extends it). Wynaut will punish Choice Pokemon to a large degree, and since scarfed pokemon are often the revenge killers of choice for most top threats, Wynaut would find no trouble getting in and reflecting the damage back for an easy KO.

I am not saying Wynaut shouldn't be tested by any means, just that he's far from useless and far from "obviously not uber." If he IS tested though, there's the issue of what to look for. Obviously Wynaut doesn't sweep and he's not walling too much on this side of the metagame. Wynaut can't effectively come in and encore for a free setup pokemon, so it doesn't necessarily make anything else sweep easier, so it can't fit the support characteristic all too well. What can people relate to and back up their statements if they do feel that it's "too much?" Also, how can bias be removed from votes? Clearly stall teams will be pissed and bandwagon uber, while offensive players will not want to play with him and not use him seriously (though I guess they should avoid suspect then :P). There are a lot of kinks in a Wynaut test that aren't in standard tests, which I feel should be addressed before he's really tested.

----

I hate stall, so it's hard to remained unbias. I personally think Deoxys-D has too many options available. It's right up there with Mew in unpredictability, and can easily wall or support to various degrees. The only thing keeping me from totally opposing this is that it suffers from 4 slot syndrome. Regardless, I still think it'd be too much, but that's what a test is supposed to
determine, correct?

----

+

Ho-oh and Mew can't really be suspects. The only reason for Ho-oh (as stated numorous times) is Stealth Rock. Even with Stealth Rock, it wouldn't be difficult for Ho-oh to come in and force something out, recovering on the switch. Then it can cause serious issues to teams and it can't be dealt with conventionally. Mew has so many options available and, from my understanding, it's way to difficult to stop it from doing it's thing. It's Gliscor that isn't limited to just attack+speed. Access to Nasty Plot doesn't help its cause either, making it able to sweep on it's own.
----


And yeah, that covers the primary suspects. Clauses, retesting old suspects (should it be done), and OU suspects (which I think is ridiculous to a degree) aren't mentioned because they're reserved after the immediate suspects.

 

[kd24]

Latias w/ Soul Dew - I think we should still test this, although I think a much shorter test would be best. We now have had Latias in OU for many months so I think we know what it is capable of. Soul Dew is a great item but I think it will require just a few weeks of testing as we know Latias already, and it is only one item.


Ho-oh - I don't want this thing in OU x=. Ho-oh is weak to Stealth Rock but like I have said before, Stealth Rock is not a automatic condition and we have plenty of viable Rapid Spinners available to keep Ho-oh at full health. Qibing already showed excellent calculations. If testing continues going smoothly and 5th gen is nowhere near being released, then maybe we can test Ho-oh but he is definitely of last priority I think.


Mew - I would honestly be more worried about the sweeper sets Mekkah presented a while ago then Mew Baton Passing out. Basically, Mew has recovery, a +2 Attack and SpA move, and can hit with extremely powerful moves on both sides of the spectrum. Taunt is the big one here, and Trick is also huge. So again, last priority (I think you guys already said its off the list though)


Deoxys-D - I wouldn't mind testing this but I have a feeling it will fall into Uber under the support conditions that Deoxys-s became uber under. Spikes, Stealth Rock, Taunt, Double Screen, and basically much better defenses to do it. However, it will be a fun test and I think offensive teams would actually rise up, taking advantage of all that extra damage and many sweepers such as salamence taking advantage of spikes.


Evasion Clause - I really don't have an opinion on this one except Evasion is very gay!_! However, it will promote to use of moves such as Oder Sleuth and Defog which is cool and we do have moves to hit it. Plus, I believe the odds of getting those 6 double teams in a row without them hitting is very very miniscule. Taunt, Lock-On, and Mind Reader also give Evasion moves problem. Plus, many Pokemon would rather support or set up with other moves, except maybe very wallish Pokemon such as Cresselia.


OHKO Clause - I don't know, would this mean Sheer Cold + Mind Reader would be banned still? I don't mind that the opponent is literally against the odds but Mind Reader (Smeargle and Articuno) eliminates that. I do think this should be tested though.


Wynaut - Me and Theorymon discussed this, didn't realize someone posted this for him. I agreed with him then and I agree with him now, Wynaut at least deserved to be tested properly and I don't think he would be much of a deal in OU with those calcs he provided and maybe he could even squirm his way into UU if he doesn't find use in OU.


Species Clause - I think this is a bad idea actually. I understand the arguments of "well if they want to use 6 Salamence on me, go ahead, I can just kill them all with __insert ice shard user here__" or "fine by me, 6 Lucario aren't going to kill me if I can beat one" but nothing is more far from the truth. Species Clause will just promote teams of 2 of the same Pokemon, maybe 3, but not 6. 2 DDMence is just going to be absolutely scary for people to fight, especially if they designed their team to be able to handle one. A lot of Theorymon here, but I think Pokemon will be changed totally if this clause is removed and not for the better.

 

[Jumpman16]

relatively short post here but for now i will say that my maintaining of "we will test latias with soul dew" has existed from the beginning and under the impression that lati@s would be considered either or uber, together. meaning that if latias were voted uber then latios probably would be too, and if latias were voted ou, then latios would be too. my latest public statement at the beginning of the np: manaphy thread was posted before most of the votes for latios had even come in, and though the whispers i had heard were indeed saying "ou", i thought i should remind us all that if latios did go ou we would be testing latias with soul dew as planned.

easier to take a plan away than to spring one on people, and i say that because now that latios is uber (and now that i think about it) it makes virtually no sense to think that latias with soul dew won't be. if anyone thinks that foregoing leftovers or sacrificing 18 points in attack (assuming you want to run a physical attack) and/or Outrage are reasons enough to test latias with dew, they can pipe up now, or we can save some time and go to one of the clauses (or wynaut but fuck wynaut and that's for another post)

 

[Syberia]

I was always against the testing of Lati@s with Soul Dew as a waste of time, and given that Latios' pure-special Specs set was the primary reason for it being voted to uber (based on what I read in the topic, anyways; Dragon Dance and Outrage didn't make or break anything), I don't see how there's any way for Latias with the same Special Attack boost (though 20 base less), and the additional ability to switch moves (or use CM), and +1 Special Defense could be OU. If they switch in on a CM, the common Latios checks are all easily dealt with (Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross are all OHKOed with SR up) by a set of Dragon Pulse/Surf/HP Fire. SubCM Jirachi can take one hit but can't do anything back.

 

[Caelum]

relatively short post here but for now i will say that my maintaining of "we will test latias with soul dew" has existed from the beginning and under the impression that lati@s would be considered either or uber, together. meaning that if latias were voted uber then latios probably would be too, and if latias were voted ou, then latios would be too. my latest public statement at the beginning of the np: manaphy thread was posted before most of the votes for latios had even come in, and though the whispers i had heard were indeed saying "ou", i thought i should remind us all that if latios did go ou we would be testing latias with soul dew as planned.

easier to take a plan away than to spring one on people, and i say that because now that latios is uber (and now that i think about it) it makes virtually no sense to think that latias with soul dew won't be. if anyone thinks that foregoing leftovers or sacrificing 18 points in attack (assuming you want to run a physical attack) and/or Outrage are reasons enough to test latias with dew, they can pipe up now, or we can save some time and go to one of the clauses (or wynaut but fuck wynaut and that's for another post)

I was actually going to bring this up with you when Latios was voted uber that Latias @ Soul Dew test was unnecessary.

I wanted to ask though, since you said we would get to the clauses next are we not going to bother with Ho-oh / Deoxys-D? I'm not particular strong in that I would fight if vehemently if you decided against it (since I believe they likely would be uber), I just wanted it to be clear. If we go to clauses I don't know if we need an equivalent of the Portrait of an uber thread (I gave it a try in some other thread), but just a thought.


BTW, I think it would be fun as a wrap up once this is all said and done to unban on suspect an extremely obviously uber like Kyogre just to see what happens.

 

[haunter]

I agree with Jumpman, since soul dew Latias seems excessively powerful and would be probably voted uber (especially considering the results of Latios vote), we should save time and go on testing the clauses.
Personally I would like to test the "species clause" first, which, in my opinion, is the only one which could fit in a competitive environment.

Also, if we decide to test the clauses, then I believe that Caelum is right, we need to give the testers some guidelines to refer to when judging if a clause can be removed or not.