Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

[Jumpman16]

Blissey Can't be OHKO'd by a physical varient of Salamence, and after that one attack, you will know what set it is running, by the attack it uses and whether it takes life orb damage.

Also, Lati@s is allowed in the battle tower, and used by trainers, but nobody would argue that it wasn't Uber

1) Garchomp can't OHKO any Cresselia so your point is moot
2) It's not a good point regardless since you don't need to OHKO something to pose a legitimate threat to it
3) We've had arguments that Lati@s should be allowed in standard (it can actually be revenge killed by two top 10 and four top 25 pokemon), which is one of the reasons, and held a tournament to that effect.

I don't know what it's gonna take for Garchomp to be considered for uber, but I'm genuinelly saddened that this thread hasn't been taken seriously by the people upstairs.

It's as if you're forgetting:

1) the sheer amount of unfounded, off-topic and/or downright trolling posts in this thread
2) that we made a new forum for exactly this kind of discussion
3) that you personally have been granted access to the aforementioned forum
4) that there is no easy solution to this issue, since it's not exactly clear cut for or against Garchomp (I *have* been keeping up with this thread)

 

[Nekada]

I just want to take time to throw something out from the policy review thread:

Indeed, don't kid yourselves: if Garchomp goes, something else will make fun of standard. Considering the turn of events, the most likely candidate for that seems either Salamence, Lucario or perhaps Togekiss (Heracross not so much because Gliscor is there as a pretty much 100% counter).

~In context of overcentralizing should it be banned~

I really hope this isn't the only reason the people in charge seem to be taking notice. My main opposition is that although the rest of these pokemon may become centralizing, they will at least be easier to deal with once they are. For example, Salamence will be incredibly powerful, but at least can be forced to switch by Blissey. With stealth rocks, this is an instant 25% loss of HP. Throw onto this the spamming of Stone Edge recently... There's a lot against it.
Lucario? Fire/Ground/Fighting... The only dangerous set (imho) is the swords dance/ extremespeed. My point here is though, that these types are all incredibly common attacking types.

Throw onto this the fact that it has sand veil...

All my point is, is the fact that even if other things become centralizing, at least they have a surefire counter for whatever reason, be it weak defenses or bad typing. Heracross has Gliscor. Salamence has just about any ice attack after a stealth rock switch in. Garchomp is Uber because when push comes to shove, he has higher defenses and better typing that most other offensive threats. And sand veil means that even things that should OHKO won't necessarily (assuming sandstorm).

Sorry to re-post what so many others have already said, but I feel completely misrepresented by the first couple of posts in policy review.

And notice that i've assumed no free swords dances.

 

[Bourbon]

I really think something should be done about this issue. This arguement has a HUGE amount of people thinking Garchomp should be Uber, and yet nothing is happening. In the very least, we should see what happens to the game when Garchomp is absent. It upsets me that no one takes this thread seriously. If it was another pokemon being considered as uber, people would sit up and take notice. However, I believe too many players depend on it heavily, and are not ready to give it up. Isn't it's insanely high amount of usage enough to prove how powerful it is!? It surpassed Blissey, which every team is supposed to have anyways... how can this be explained!?

It's because everyone subconciously knows (though may not admit) that Garchomp is by far the most dangerous pokemon in OU. Sure, there has to be a "best" pokemon, but even the best should have a counter. And no, an exploding Occa Berry Bronzong is not what I would call a counter.

Before you people list pokemon that are difficult to counter (which previous posters have been known to do) all of those pokemon can be countered when their set is known. Garchomp always does the exact same thing, and it's still uncounterable.




If the other dragons become too much to handle, then we'll bring him back. However, I believe it would be a change for the better. Here's a few welcome changes I predict:

-A drop in Steel Type usage: I like steel types as much as the next person, but when a team has two to three of them, it gets irritating. Every sweeper has to pack a fire or ground move... it's getting lame.

-A drop in HP Ice usage: Everything has HP Ice so they can hit Garchomp. When he's gone, there's really only a few pokemon this will hit (Salamence, Gliscor, Dragonite) so we'll be able to use other Hidden Power types.

-Less Choice Scarves: I'm serious, this insane speed craze has gone out of hand. We have TIMID CHOICE SCARF GENGAR... you know something is wrong when one of the fastest pokemon needs a scarf. Some Azelfs run scarves as well. Maybe with Garchomp gone, the annoying "ha ha, my scarfed guy got a surprise KO" thing will lessen.

-Increased Salamence usage: Salamence used to be top dog in Advance, but Garchomp stole his thunder. Salamence hits hard with Draco Meteor, but thankfully lacks Outrage and STAB Earthquake. The rock weakness holds it back as well. Teams will need to be more prepared for him, but Salamence can be countered.




Anyways, the original post sums up most of the reasons why Garchomp is broken. Even Weavile can't OHKO without a Choice Band! It hits defense tier 117.9 without any EV investment whatsoever.

But I have a point to add of my own. All the sketchy Garchomp "counters" depend on it using Outrage to get trapped in battle. Should it choose not to Outrage, you won't even get to touch it, and your counter will be severely damaged.

Choice Band dragon claw hits as hard as Outrage. Therefore, a smart Garchomp player would save Outrage for late game, when a sweep is guarneteed. Most people forget about Earthquake too... although Outrage is the most spammed move, it has other tricks up it's sleeves.

Anyways, in conclusion, Garchomp is too dangerous. It's excellent defenses make it difficult to kill, even with Ice moves. It's perfect speed outruns most of the would-be counters. It resists Stealth Rock. It's STAB combo is resisted by two pokemon, and it learns a move to hit them with. It gets Swords Dance to double it's attack. It's immune to Sandstorm, and gets a double team from it.

Since it has so drastically overcentralized the metagame, and has no true counter, EVEN when it's set is known, Garchomp is too powerful. The game could certainly do without it.

 

[Slice n Dice]

1) Garchomp can't OHKO any Cresselia so your point is moot
2) It's not a good point regardless since you don't need to OHKO something to pose a legitimate threat to it
3) We've had arguments that Lati@s should be allowed in standard (it can actually be revenge killed by two top 10 and four top 25 pokemon), which is one of the reasons, and held a tournament to that effect.



It's as if you're forgetting:

1) the sheer amount of unfounded, off-topic and/or downright trolling posts in this thread
2) that we made a new forum for exactly this kind of discussion
3) that you personally have been granted access to the aforementioned forum
4) that there is no easy solution to this issue, since it's not exactly clear cut for or against Garchomp (I *have* been keeping up with this thread)

Back to the topic of having no surefire counters, Cresselia can simply switch in on a Swords Dance, Following that, Chomp outrages, Cress Ice Beams, Chomp takes around 80 percent and with Yache 40 percent. Then there is the annoying chance of missing, and if it is late game, steel walls like Skarmory and Forretress could have been removed already. Especially in the case of Yache, Chomp will 2HKO cress in this case. Anything switching in on a boosted Outrage will take mass amounts of damage.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

I've given up trying to determine is Garchomp is too much for OU. The one thing that concerns me, though, is the 130 Atk + Swords Dance AND those 108/95/85 defenses. Let's look at the other non-Ubers with at least 130 Atk and Swords Dance:

Rampardos - 97/60/50 - A picture of Rampardos is shown next to the definition of "glass cannon."

Rhyperior - 115/130/55 - It really needs Sandstorm to be able to take a special hit...

Absol - 65/60/60 - ...and I thought Rampardos was a glass cannon. At least it has Sucker Punch.

Breloom - 60/80/60 - From my experience, Breloom's ability to sweep is... lacking, to say the least. It's not a 130 Atk Pokemon with utility; it's a utility Pokemon with 130 Atk.

Kingler - 55/115/50 - Even worse on the special side than Rhyperior--though a STAB Crabhammer can be fun to play with.

Scizor - 70/100/80 - At least it has one of the better defensive typings and Roost to work with.

Ursaring - 90/75/75 - Guts; yay. If only it weren't for that 55 Speed...

...and Garchomp outruns all of them.

 

[xcfrisco]

2) that we made a new forum for exactly this kind of discussion
3) that you personally have been granted access to the aforementioned forum

I might be retarded but what forum is it that you speak of?

 

[Dane]

I might be retarded but what forum is it that you speak of?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=63

This one.

 

[SubVersion]

One thing I'd like to address is the argument: "If Garchomp is sent to Ubers, something else will become top dog in the metagame. And then you'll want to ban that too! It will never end!"

That argument is arguably the worst I have ever seen, and I've been browsing Stark for a long time now. Let's just assume that Garchomp goes to Uber. Obviously with him gone, something else will become "top" of OU. That's a statistical necessity - any ranking system needs a top spot - but I don't see how that changes the new "top" Pokemon's ability to threaten in the metagame.

Viable contenders for the top spot in a metagame sans-Garchomp don't suddenly become more powerful, the old methods of beating them don't suddenly stop being as effective, and all the flaws they have now - which keep them below Garchomp in terms of Shoddy usage - will still be there and equally as exploitable.

The whole point here is that Garchomp is harder to stop than any other Pokemon to stop in OU. That doesn't mean that with him gone, the next-toughest Pokemon is suddenly broken; The huge defensive gap between Garchomp and other similar-purpose Pokemon like Lucario, Gengar and Heracross is so big that not a single one of them could have the same sort of effect on the metagame that Garchomp has.

I'm not swayed to either side of the over-arching argument (whether 'Chomp is OU or Uber), but I do believe this particular point for him to remain in OU is far and away the worst, most ill-conceived idea that's floating around at the moment. Its completely wrong and shows that whoever is using it shouldn't be listened to in the first place.

To briefly summarize my opinion on the actual topic of the thread, I'm not currently swayed either way. Of course, I do believe the presence of Garchomp seriously undermines the whole team building process; If you've got a Garchomp on your team (and it doesn't have a retarded set), you've basically got the beginnings of a good team already. Of course its possible to fuck it up with your other 5 Pokemon, but Garchomp will always do his job well regardless of what you surround him with. "Countering" him is also a job which needs to be spread across at least two Pokemon, should either one of them die before killing him or because neither one can take all of his possible sets. And unlike Salamence, where he becomes perfectly counter-able after absorbing one hit, Garchomp is still going to mess you up even once you know its set (which isn't easy in-and-of itself, considering most Garchomp run EQ or Dragon Claw/Outrage, neither of which give away the set). I fully believe that a metagame without such an omni-present threat would thrive, with more Pokemon becoming usable not only because there isn't a wrecking ball waiting to OHKO them around every turn, but also because there would essentially be more spots available on a team, since at least two party members are usually restricted to the "things that can kill Garchomp" category.

 

[seds]

Yeah, you tell em Subversion. QFT, best logic I've heard in here yet.

 

[1059860]

Just to let you know, my BellyZard (on Shoddy), used FirePunch after Belly Drum, hit 101%, 101% and 100% on 3 Garchomps with Blaze, STAB Fire Punch... Although it's not very effective, but 101% with Blaze and STAB, Max Attack should deal way more than that....

 

[Bologo]

Just to let you know, my BellyZard (on Shoddy), used FirePunch after Belly Drum, hit 101%, 101% and 100% on 3 Garchomps with Blaze, STAB Fire Punch... Although it's not very effective, but 101% with Blaze and STAB, Max Attack should deal way more than that....

Uhh, who cares?

 

[Bankai]

I'll also have to agree with SubVersion here. The Pokemon that would become the next top Pokemon when Garchomp is gone are usually so easy to kill that it's sad (SD+Extremespeed not included). Lucario can be killed by pretty much every fighting/ground move, Heracross dies to any flying attack, Salamence is easily walled by Blissey and doesn't automatically outrun 100-speed Pokemon, and Togekiss may be annoying, but doesn't OHKO others, and gives you plenty of time to set something up/kill him.

 

[Invective]

Just to let you know, my BellyZard (on Shoddy), used FirePunch after Belly Drum, hit 101%, 101% and 100% on 3 Garchomps with Blaze, STAB Fire Punch... Although it's not very effective, but 101% with Blaze and STAB, Max Attack should deal way more than that....

uhm, according to metalkids, the max you will do is 103%. and the minimum you will do is 87. so, i would consider you lucky for hitting them for that much damage.

unless my calcs are wrong (sorry if they are) then this shows how bulky garchomp really is, being 2hkoed most of the time by a bellyzard.

 

[Bentendo1]

-Less Choice Scarves: I'm serious, this insane speed craze has gone out of hand. We have TIMID CHOICE SCARF GENGAR... you know something is wrong when one of the fastest pokemon needs a scarf. Some Azelfs run scarves as well. Maybe with Garchomp gone, the annoying "ha ha, my scarfed guy got a surprise KO" thing will lessen.

A Choice Scarf is fine on a Poke as long as it has enough power, imo. However, there is a point where something is just too fast to run with a Choice Scarf, like, say a Deoxys-E.

Let's see, a Choice Scarf is usually used to make a slower Pokemon faster. However, that Pokemon must also be strong enough to operate with one. For example, you wouldn't want to put a Choice Scarf on a Dugtrio because it has mediocre attack, while it can maintain good speed with a +nature, and it really needs the attack boost. It's sorta like the opposite with Gengar. It has enough special attack to run with a Choice Scarf, and although it's fast, it's not all that fast with a modest nature, so a Choice Scarf can save it.

Bleh, I'm not explaining it well I think. My point is, it doesn't really matter how much speed a Pokemon has (to a certain extent) as long as it has enough power to run with a Choice Scarf, just like a faster but weaker Pokemon can operate fine with a Choice Band/Specs.

So in theory, the extra speed would be good...

 

[eric the espeon]

One thing I'd like to address is the argument: "If Garchomp is sent to Ubers, something else will become top dog in the metagame. And then you'll want to ban that too! It will never end!"

That argument is arguably the worst I have ever seen, and I've been browsing Stark for a long time now. Let's just assume that Garchomp goes to Uber. Obviously with him gone, something else will become "top" of OU. That's a statistical necessity - any ranking system needs a top spot - but I don't see how that changes the new "top" Pokemon's ability to threaten in the metagame.

before now i have beed strongly against moveing chompy to ubers (partly cos my team uses it) but i do see this point. i say it NEEDS to be tested, preferably on the shoddy ladder before we can be sure. i would love not to have to put skarm/zong to wall it or mamo/scarftran/fast ice beamer on every team i make though.

 

[Bourbon]

A Choice Scarf is fine on a Poke as long as it has enough power, imo. However, there is a point where something is just too fast to run with a Choice Scarf, like, say a Deoxys-E.

Let's see, a Choice Scarf is usually used to make a slower Pokemon faster. However, that Pokemon must also be strong enough to operate with one. For example, you wouldn't want to put a Choice Scarf on a Dugtrio because it has mediocre attack, while it can maintain good speed with a +nature, and it really needs the attack boost. It's sorta like the opposite with Gengar. It has enough special attack to run with a Choice Scarf, and although it's fast, it's not all that fast with a modest nature, so a Choice Scarf can save it.

Bleh, I'm not explaining it well I think. My point is, it doesn't really matter how much speed a Pokemon has (to a certain extent) as long as it has enough power to run with a Choice Scarf, just like a faster but weaker Pokemon can operate fine with a Choice Band/Specs.

So in theory, the extra speed would be good...

What I was trying to say was that Scarfchomp drastically altered the game. Before, the only scarfer you really saw was Heracross, but when the idea for Scarfchomp was born, you started to see all kinds of scarfed pokemon, trying to get faster than it.

The whole 266 sp. atk thing is also an indicator of how overcentralizing Garchomp is/was.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

No....people ALWAYS used ScarfHeatran and Gengar before Garchomp came along.......


Plus, Scarfchomp is the weakest out of any Garchomp.

 

[Shen]

Garchomp works the same as every other Pokemon. Choice Band types need prediction; with counters Chompy is only staying for one attack as you switch. In that scenario, his speed is a non-factor. No counters left means you die, same as every other Choice Bander. Pokemon that have setups involving substitute and attribute boosts are all liable to wreak absolute havoc if you mispredict even once, so Garchomp isn't really anything special there either.

Another non-Garchomp unique advantage is versatility; when one switches in, you're never immediately sure about what it's going to do next. This is the same as other pokes like Gengar, Salamence and recently Deoxys, so again he's not particularly special.

Yes his resists to SR, immunity to electricity and higher than normal durability get him in easier than most, but when he's in he's not that much different to everything else. Don't build a team thinking that you need to counter Garchomp, build a team that does what you want to do. If you set up before the other team gets to bring Garchomp in, you've got nothing to worry about. No one's going to bring a Garchomp into a Cresselia with two CMs under it's belt, for example.

Essentially Garchomp can be countered by better team building, prediction and understanding of the game; in short, being better at battling overall. No one team can win all the time, but the more you battle, the better you get. Banning Garchomp gives me the same sort of "NO SKARMBLISS" spammed by noobs on NetBattle last generation.

A drop in any combination of movesets, Pokemon and item combinations IS NOT in fact a good move for the metagame. If Choice Scarf Gengars are scoring surprise KOs, or people are being hit by unexpected HP Ices, that makes things more interesting. Physical sweepers carrying EQ is...not really a big thing, to be honest. It's almost a staple move.

Finally, it'd be a damn shame to see Garchomp removed from OU, because he'd get the same treatment that Deoxys speed got; not strong enough for Uber but considered too strong for standard play.

Edit to agree that ScarfChomp isn't that scary. A "mere" 394 attack is pretty easily walled by Skarmory, Forretress, Hippowdon, Cresselia, Gliscor and a bunch of other Pokemon.

 

[Bourbon]

I never ever EVER saw a Scarfed Gengar with HP Ice until Garchomp became popular. If a counter like that has to be made, you know something is wrong.

And BTW, a pokemon's performance in Ubers in no way affects if it should be allowed in OU.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Then maybe you didn't battle enough.

 

[Bourbon]

Maybe I've been battling since D/P came out, and battling on Shoddy. All the Gengar's I used to see were Life Orb, Specs, or even Focus Sash (when leads). Until someone invented Scarfchomp (can't recall offhand which member did) Scarf Gengar was rare, or even non-existent.

 

[Shen]

Scarf Gengar has been killing my Starmies, Crobats, Weaviles and Azelfs for ages. There are lots of scary fast Pokemon about, Garchomp is not the only thing that needs to be outsped.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Seriously? This is still going?

On topic: I'd be really curious if Shoddy Battle can give stats on how often Garchomp "Sweeps", or whether a team's Garchomp is still alive
when they win.

I hate fighting him. I do. But I've used him myself and he's hardly the invincible Super Pokemon people talk about, especially taken on his own with out support such as Sandstorm or Stealth Rocks.

People in this thread seem to want to assume that Garchomp is super powerful if:

1. He has Stealth Rocks in play to block his counters (Like BulkyDos).
2. He has Weather in play to activate Sand Veil.
3. He's used a Sword Dance.

What's funny about all these assumptions is this:

Go read http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17743 Its the first post on the RMT forum and says in particular this:

...but most of these teams all share the same problem and it's not a Gyarados weakness (though most have that too).

What is this problem? It's the lack of a unifying, central strategy behind the team.

Why am I mentioning this?

Essentially the first thing you're supposed to learn in the RMT forum is that a cohesive team strategy is important. The GOOD thing that
Garchomp has brought to the D/P metagame is that people using Garchomp are doing EXACTLY what the RMT forum tells you to do: they built a strategy into their team (Support Garchomp)... and that Strategy clearly beat yours.


If there's a problem with Garchomp in the metagame it isn't his type, ability or stats. Not really. If anything the problem is that with Garchomp its pretty easy to build a cohesive strategy, maybe too easy.

Maybe the answer isn't to ban Garchomp, or even really worry about countering him. Maybe the real answer is that we all need to go to Pokemon Boot Camp and work on our team building strategy.

 

[Boa1891]

I only bothered to read the first page, but I did read the entire first page.

I really don't have anything to say, but:
Whether or not Garchomp is the best in OU is up for debate. Whether it is or not, if you continually remove the best of OU you're left with nothing in OU.

I've never had a massive problem with Garchomp, though- And my team has a heavy center on sandstorm, giving it an immediate boost when it's out. All I really do is predict; switch to my CBMamoswine or bring it out as revenge, after I chip at least some of chomp's HP away.

The OP seems to be trying to make Chomp out as the world's best defense, when it's really too frail to bank on taking a hit or two and making it back out later. If someone rips up your Garchomp too bad for it to come in on an attack, it's only good for revenge, and it's not even good at that if it's not the CS variation. Don't forget that even if it tries to revenge, a surprise priority attack could still finish it.

I've never had a real problem with Garchomp, again. No more a problem than anything else.

Oh, and when you said...
"Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss."

I could say the same about a quick claw rhyperior, geared for defence, who SDs on the first turn. Never seen does not mean irrelevant.

 

[Jolt99]

I think Dr.Traveler really hit the nail on the head here.

This discussion needs to stop. Garchomp stays in OU. If you hate fighting it, play BL/UU.

Using garchomp with SS support is for noobs.