Pokémon Gardevoir

[iQs__]

I'm really finding it hard to give Mega Gardevoir any sort of credit.

Mega Gardevoir is inferior to Gardevoir proper because it doesn't help it overcome any of Gardevoir's previous issues (cue the large neon sign blinking "Defense") and it loses Gardevoir's biggest asset to any team, Trace. As an avid user of Gardevoir in Gen 5 and continuing into Gen 6, I can say that Trace is the reason to use Gardevoir. Mega Gardevoir says "no" to the common Flash Fire, Volt Absorb, Natural Cure, Thick Fat, Prankster, Regenerator, Protean, Intimidate, Sturdy, Multiscale, Magnet Pull, etc., etc. and all for a slight power increase which is out-powered by Life Orb save Pixilate Hyper Voice, an insignificant Sp.Def boost, and a slight speed buff. In no world is that a good trade-off. Trace provides Gardevoir with so many switches into things like Heatran and Dragonite by turning their abilities against them that permanently disabling that for Mega Gardevoir just seems suicidal when a good Steel-type like Scizor or Aegislash can force out Gardevoir with ease and then have it struggle to switch in without Trace.

Gardevoir out-classes Mega Gardevoir overall. Speed and Hyper Voice are the only reasons to use it and they are poor reasons at that. Base 80 Speed is not bad at all, Expert Belt or Life Orb gives Gardevoir's coverage options more power, and Lefties gives Gardevoir the staying-power it needs to be a team player.

Once lower tiers start forming, Mega Gardevoir will become progressively more appealing the lower it goes as the abilities become progressively less worth Tracing and base 100 speed becomes more desirable. But as far as OU and possibly UU when it arrives, steer clear of Mega Gardevoir as it does more harm than good for Gardevoir.

You are telling me that Tracing Technician and Stance Change will help you stay in with Scizor and Aegislash?

You are telling me that Tracing Multiscale will help you to stand against EQ from Dragonite and Earth Power from Heatran?
And because of the added Fairy-type, now both Gardevoir and Mega-Gardevoir can proceed to sweep without the fear of Pursuit. I manage to sweep with it using Espeon Baton Pass. 165 SpA is like 2nd to only Mega-Gengar. Good coverage with dual STABs and 100 base Spe is not bad at all.

Both of them are going to stay here in OU. Different playstyles require different usages of the pokemon. That's all.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

I got it sir. Just checked the stimulator.

But my point still stands firmly.

If you're talking about your point about Heatran being used less, it absolutely does not stand up at all.

 

[Nubbins]

The difference between regular gardevoir and mega-gardevoir is that one is support-oriented while the other one is geared towards pure offense.

And when it comes to pure offense, the ability to belt out STAB Pixilated Hyper Voices beats the ability to trace miscellaneous abilities. Which M-gardevoir still retains on it's first switch in. +20 speed is HUGE.

Heatran is a bit of a moot point since M-gard has a high enough special defense to switch in without depending on flash fire.

 

[muggy8]

here's a set that i've bee
n wanting to cook up with gardevoir but it's exclusively for double battles tho.
pokemon 1: gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Timid, Trace
252SpA, 252Spe, 4SpD
skill swap
moon blast
thunderbolt/focus blast/will-o-wisp/heal pulse
psyshock/psychic/calm mind

second pokemon
Slaking @ life orb
252 atk, 252 spe, 4 hp
return
brick break/earthquake
persuit
slack off

the idea here is using gardevoir's trace to get something nice and pass it to slaking with skills wap (sometimes you get really bad abilities but oh well, anything is better than trout, even slow start) and the next turn you mega evolve and lose trout since anything is better than trout and sweep if your still alive. if your taking heal pulse and slack off, your going to have a very very bulky slaking sitting there sweeping teams.

 

[iQs__]

If you're talking about your point about Heatran being used less, it absolutely does not stand up at all.

No the point about how Trace Gardevoir can somewhat deal with Heatran according to the previous post. Even if people still use Heatran, Trace Gardevoir cannot rely on Flash Fire to switch in. Her defense is terrible. One Earth Power might be enough. And I don't think Gardevoir has the tools to deal with Fire/Steel.

 

[RockStarFish]

No the point about how Trace Gardevoir can somewhat deal with Heatran according to the previous post. Even if people still use Heatran, Trace Gardevoir cannot rely on Flash Fire to switch in. Her defense is terrible. One Earth Power might be enough. And I don't think Gardevoir has the tools to deal with Fire/Steel.

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 76-90 (27.43 - 32.49%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Saywhut?

 

[False Sense]

No the point about how Trace Gardevoir can somewhat deal with Heatran according to the previous post. Even if people still use Heatran, Trace Gardevoir cannot rely on Flash Fire to switch in. Her defense is terrible. One Earth Power might be enough. And I don't think Gardevoir has the tools to deal with Fire/Steel.

You do realize Earth Power is a special attack, right? You mention Gardevoir's defense in that post. And while its defense is pretty bad, its special defense is pretty good.

 

[sidakarya]

No the point about how Trace Gardevoir can somewhat deal with Heatran according to the previous post. Even if people still use Heatran, Trace Gardevoir cannot rely on Flash Fire to switch in. Her defense is terrible. One Earth Power might be enough. And I don't think Gardevoir has the tools to deal with Fire/Steel.

All she needs to worry about is Flash Cannon from Heatran, actually. (And hitting it with Focus Miss, naturally)

 

[iQs__]

damn thanks guys. My fault again.

I think people use Toxic/SR/Taunt and Fire Blast and Earth Power more often than Flash Cannon right? Maybe with Fairies now being weak to Steel he will start carrying one. I dont know *sigh*

 

[SJCrew]

All she needs to worry about is Flash Cannon from Heatran, actually. (And hitting it with Focus Miss, naturally)

I've lost less games to Gardevoir counters than Gardevoir countering herself by missing that damned move. Sadly, I think that's the way Gamefreak wanted it.

 

[Katakiri]

You are telling me that Tracing Technician and Stance Change will help you stay in with Scizor and Aegislash?

Tell me exactly where I said that? Please.
I said that Trace gives Gardevoir free switches back into battle when Scizor and Aegislash force it out. Mega Gardevoir is stuck without any defensive ability to get it back into the fray.

Mega Gardevoir is turning down Flash Fire against Heatran, a free Sturdy for switching into Skarmory, Prankster for leading against Klefki, Poison Heal against Gliscor, Natural Cure for switching into Blissey or Celebi, Multiscale to avoid an OHKO from up to a +3 Adamant Dragonite Earthquake with no HP/Def investment, Swift Swim against rain, Chlorophyll against sun, Volt Absorb to wall Jolteon and Thundurus-T, a Sp.Atk boost from Storm Drain and Lightning Rod, Intimidate to soften attacks from Landorus-T and Salamence, Sheer Force Moonblast & Focus Blast, Protean Focus Blasts for leading against Greninja, Magnet Pull-trapping Magnezone, and I could go on. Free immunities, free stat boosts, free defensive buffs, and free healing. Trust in me when I say that Gardevoir-proper has a niche.

Mega Gardevoir on the other hand can't make proper use of Trace because it is used for Hyper Voice. Unless you want to carry Moonblast and Hyper Voice, Trace Gardevoir doesn't get a STAB option when you choose to use Mega Gardevoir meaning you may have Multiscale against Dragonite, but you can't hit it back without losing Multiscale; and if you're only using Moonblast, there is no reason to mega evolve. Mega Gardevoir spits in the face of Trace and, as a long time user of Gardevoir, that is fucking hilarious to me.

Mega Gardevoir's niche, as I understand it, is a fast, offensive Fairy-type. The role of an offensive Fairy-type is more readily done by Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon, which can support its team with Wish when walled and doesn't burn your Mega slot. The role a fast offensive Dragon check is done better by Genesect and I'd wager to say even Jirachi. Mega Gardevoir is looking at a niche of a niche that also eats your Mega Pokemon slot. It's not even close to worth using in OU, UU remains to be seen but I'm not optimistic about it.

 

[Aasgier]

And Trace Gardevoir is looking at a niche eaten by Porygon-2, who has far more bulk to perform defensive roles, and can use Eviolite.

Gardevoir just dies to way too many physical hits, and can easily be Pursuit-trapped due to its frailty (despite it no longer being weak to it).

And you yourself mentioned why Mega Gardevoir should not be used.

I like Gardevoir, but I'll be pessimistic and say it will end up in RU at best, likely remain NU.

 

[Fireburn]

Tell me exactly where I said that? Please.
I said that Trace gives Gardevoir free switches back into battle when Scizor and Aegislash force it out. Mega Gardevoir is stuck without any defensive ability to get it back into the fray.

Mega Gardevoir is turning down Flash Fire against Heatran, a free Sturdy for switching into Skarmory, Prankster for leading against Klefki, Poison Heal against Gliscor, Natural Cure for switching into Blissey or Celebi, Multiscale to avoid an OHKO from up to a +3 Adamant Dragonite Earthquake with no HP/Def investment, Swift Swim against rain, Chlorophyll against sun, Volt Absorb to wall Jolteon and Thundurus-T, a Sp.Atk boost from Storm Drain and Lightning Rod, Intimidate to soften attacks from Landorus-T and Salamence, Sheer Force Moonblast & Focus Blast, Protean Focus Blasts for leading against Greninja, Magnet Pull-trapping Magnezone, and I could go on. Free immunities, free stat boosts, free defensive buffs, and free healing. Trust in me when I say that Gardevoir-proper has a niche.

Mega Gardevoir on the other hand can't make proper use of Trace because it is used for Hyper Voice. Unless you want to carry Moonblast and Hyper Voice, Trace Gardevoir doesn't get a STAB option when you choose to use Mega Gardevoir meaning you may have Multiscale against Dragonite, but you can't hit it back without losing Multiscale; and if you're only using Moonblast, there is no reason to mega evolve. Mega Gardevoir spits in the face of Trace and, as a long time user of Gardevoir, that is fucking hilarious to me.

Mega Gardevoir's niche, as I understand it, is a fast, offensive Fairy-type. The role of an offensive Fairy-type is more readily done by Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon, which can support its team with Wish when walled and doesn't burn your Mega slot. The role a fast offensive Dragon check is done better by Genesect and I'd wager to say even Jirachi. Mega Gardevoir is looking at a niche of a niche that also eats your Mega Pokemon slot. It's not even close to worth using in OU, UU remains to be seen but I'm not optimistic about it.

I think SJCrew's point was that you could Mega Evolve once Trace was no longer useful. Giving Gardevoir its Mega Stone does not automatically cancel out Trace, which you kind of seem to be implying here. You don't necessarily have to Mega Evolve immediately. Besides, what offensive sets does normal Gardevoir specifically do better aside from Scarf? Unless you're holding Scarf, base 100 Speed is a heck of a lot more attractive to me than base 80 on something with no priority or speed boosting moves.

I also don't see how something like Sylveon outclasses Mega Gardevoir. Sylveon is slow as balls, is a lot less powerful, and lacks a lot of the nice coverage options Gardevoir gets like Focus Blast and Thunderbolt. Wish is hardly an advantage because Gardevoir gets Wish too (thought Sylveon's Wishes are admittedly fatter).

I won't argue that the opportunity cost of using Mega Gardevoir is pretty high (especially when stuff like Gengar and Kanga are available), but that doesn't mean it sucks.

 

[Aasgier]

Where did he say Mega Gardevoir sucks?

It is just that Mega Gardevoir isn't really worth using when we have Mega Gengar/Kangaskhan and friends.

 

[EternalDream]

It is just that Mega Gardevoir isn't really worth using when we have Mega Gengar/Kangaskhan and friends.

Since when are kangaskhan and gengar immune to Dragon and have a 117 BP attack with STAB?

Just because two pokemon are amazingly powerful doesn't mean everyone HAS to use those two pokemon as their sweeper. I've seen dozens of teams with neither gengar nor kangkaskhan as special or physical sweeper respectively.

 

[Aasgier]

True, but there are plenty of Mega's not even mentioned that are better than Mega Gardevoir too. I just took the two most obvious ones, but Mega Lucario, Mega Zard, and the likes are better than MegaGarde too.

 

[EternalDream]

True, but there are plenty of Mega's not even mentioned that are better than Mega Gardevoir too. I just took the two most obvious ones, but Mega Lucario, Mega Zard, and the likes are better than MegaGarde too.

M.Charizard is in no way superior to M.Gardevoir. It gets wrecked by rocks just as badly as before , and is even weak to the omnipresent EQ as X. It's attack is less than M.Gardevoir in both forms, topping at 159 SpAttack as Y, 6 short of M.Gardevoir's 165. They are also just 100 Speed, which is the same as M.Gardevoir.

Just because a pokemon is weak to the most common priority ever (and this is only because the pokemon with said priority is so damn good (Scizor)), doesn't make the pokemon bad. Stealth Rock is more common than BP, so with that logic, M.Charizard is weaker than M.Gardevoir.

 

[KingJumby]

And Trace Gardevoir is looking at a niche eaten by Porygon-2, who has far more bulk to perform defensive roles, and can use Eviolite.

Porygon 2 fills more defensive roles with trace better but he cant take as much advantage from trace as gardevoir can when it comes to offense. While he takes heatran's hits way better than gardevoir does, he cant do much back to heatran bar thunderwave. He is unable to outspeed venasaur after tracing chlorophyll and then could be put to sleep with sleep powder or is 2hko'd by a +2 sludge bomb... Admittedly thats not terribly impressive numbers but gardevoir can trace the chlorophyll, outspeed (although they have the same base speed, most venasaur use hp fire) most likely kill with a psychic, then have chlorophyll to take on the next pokemon sent in. Porygon 2 may be able to copy magnezone magnetpull and trap him in, but there is literally nothing that it can do to it (this however is where gardevoir's new fairy type screws it over, flash cannon :| ) Another thing to consider is the fact that porygon 2 has to give his item slot up (if you didn't, why would you even use it in the first place?) Because of this, gardevoir can run a wider variety of sets than porygon 2. With the way i run gardevoir (max speed/sp atk and psychic/focus blast/destiny bond/taunt and leftovers) gardevoir can really utilize trace well by just being a general nuisance (destiny bond is always good to have, allows you to take out slower bulkier threats pretty much completely risk free. Yeah im looking at you mega-mawile). I dont know, i just feel that gardevoir as a pokemon has a lot more utility than porygon 2 does. I mean yeah porygon 2 has higher defense, ice beam, and access to recover but most porygon 2's are pretty much all the same, with pretty much the only variation being distribution in stats or whether it runs toxic or t-wave. Gardevoir just having a mega in the first place gives it a buff as the opponent has no idea if its a mega or not and they may mispredict around it. so... eh...

 

[Garrus01]

Someone seems to be forgetting that there is something called support. Gardevoir's frailty is easily patched up with a reflect screen, and it is actually quite beefy on the SpD side. It also hits ALOT harder than any of the other fairies we have bar xerneas, and has coverage too. I actually use opposing sylveons as setup bait-they can't really do anything to gardevoir most of the time, and by the time the opponent realizes what's happening, I'm firing off +2 moonblasts, shadowballs, and psychics. All of this is without said support. Mega Chars do tend to end my streak, but quite frankly I've taken down some of those too, and Gardevoir can deal with Mega Y fairly well in my experience. It can afford to laugh at pure special Ys with its calm mind boosts. All of this is on WiFi, but I prefer gardevoir over azumarill or klefki because I prefer hitting power. And considering scoliopede has speed boost, gardevoir's base 80 speed tier is not much of an issue when blaziken has the same base speed-and even less so with the mega evo. 2 baton passed speed boosts and you'll outspeed alot of the metagame. Scoliopede also gets iron defense, which could allow it to boost gardevoir's defenses even as it boosts its speed.

 

[Katakiri]

And Trace Gardevoir is looking at a niche eaten by Porygon-2, who has far more bulk to perform defensive roles, and can use Eviolite.

Gardevoir just dies to way too many physical hits, and can easily be Pursuit-trapped due to its frailty (despite it no longer being weak to it).

And you yourself mentioned why Mega Gardevoir should not be used.

I like Gardevoir, but I'll be pessimistic and say it will end up in RU at best, likely remain NU.

Gardevoir has a rather expansive movepool compared to P2 on top of a massive speed difference and an practically opposite typings. They serve entirely different purposes and are about as comparable as Skarmory and Genesect. Moves like Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, and Focus Blast separates Gardevoir even further.

I think SJCrew's point was that you could Mega Evolve once Trace was no longer useful. Giving Gardevoir its Mega Stone does not automatically cancel out Trace, which you kind of seem to be implying here. You don't necessarily have to Mega Evolve immediately. Besides, what offensive sets does normal Gardevoir specifically do better aside from Scarf? Unless you're holding Scarf, base 100 Speed is a heck of a lot more attractive to me than base 80 on something with no priority or speed boosting moves.

I also don't see how something like Sylveon outclasses Mega Gardevoir. Sylveon is slow as balls, is a lot less powerful, and lacks a lot of the nice coverage options Gardevoir gets like Focus Blast and Thunderbolt. Wish is hardly an advantage because Gardevoir gets Wish too (thought Sylveon's Wishes are admittedly fatter).

I won't argue that the opportunity cost of using Mega Gardevoir is pretty high (especially when stuff like Gengar and Kanga are available), but that doesn't mean it sucks.

I addressed this in my previous post. Until Gardevoir Mega Evolves and gets Pixilate, Hyper Voice is utterly worthless. Tracing Dragonite's Multiscale or is pretty useless if all you can hit it with is a non-STAB Normal-type attack. Trace Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir cannot coexist without sacrificing a moveslot for Moonblast so Gardevoir can at least do some damage. And again, if you just opt to not use Hyper Voice, you'd be better off with a Pixie Plate to match Mega's damage output and keeping Trace.

The extra base speed is nearly worthless in the end as Mega Gardevoir isn't sweeping much easier than with 80 base speed. If your team is especially weak to the max speed variants of any of the following Pokemon between the base 81 & 99 speed tiers, go ahead and waste your Mega Evo slot to catch them: Genesect, Kyurem-B, Lucario, Roserade, Mega Garchomp, Landorus-T, Deoxys-D, Kangaskhan (Pre-Mega), Excadrill, Rotom-A, Pinsir (Pre-Mega), Nidoking, Suicune, Gyarados, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Darmanitan, Electivire, Gliscor. Again, that is Timid/Jolly Max Speed for all of them as uncommon as it may be for some. You can throw slower Jirachi & Celebi sets into that mix as well.

As you said, Mega Gardevoir is not bad, the opportuniy cost of using it over Gardevoir-proper or something else entirely is just to high for what it brings to the table in comparison. Gardevoir-proper, Sylveon, and Florges provide more staying power and Genesect, Jirachi, and Azumarill are more practical Dragon checks capable of sweeping; none of which cost your Mega Pokemon slot either.

 

[muggy8]

i personally love trace so much more than many other abilities and often dont want to lose trace since you can trace really good abilities. the thing with mega gardevoir is if you dont mega your losing an item slot for something useful like leftovers or light clay while if you mega evolve, your losing trace. pixilate is only good once hypervoice comes out or if gardy can get boomburst somehow in the future. the key here being when to go mega and when not to.

I've been flirting with the idea of carrying 2 megas, gardevoir and a physical attacker mega (garadose, absol, kangashan etc) to use for different situations because you can play gardy as a special wall and still do decent damage in mega form and if you have a clam mind under your belt, you can do it even better but you'll need alot to safely switch in or you'll need to switch into a fighting move or something. and most fighting types have coverage moves and considering how fragile gardy is any coverage move will likely take her out :(

i've also been flirting with the idea of mega gardy with ability swap in mega form to give it to team mates and in the case of single battles, take away important abilities for some pokemon while passing them a pixilate. most notably the ability shadow tag and speed boost.

 

[Katakiri]

Baton Pass is a terrible gimmick that is made even worse with Talonflame not giving a damn about speed boosts. Baton Passing to something with Gardevoir's non-existent Defense is asking to lose in a metagame filled with physical priority.

If you need Baton Pass to make something sweep, it has no business sweeping in the first place.

 

[EternalDream]

Baton Pass is a terrible gimmick that is made even worse with Talonflame not giving a damn about speed boosts. Baton Passing to something with Gardevoir's non-existent Defense is asking to lose in a metagame filled with physical priority.

If you need Baton Pass to make something sweep, it has no business sweeping in the first place.

So, you're dissing a style of battling? Baton Pass is not bad by any means, saying it's a terrible gimmick is just plain wrong.

If Baton Pass sweepers shouldn't be sweeping to begin with, then Setup sweepers should have even less business sweeping, as they're taking the hits while setting up, rather than let another 'mon do the hard work.

We got it, you don't like Mega Gardevoir. But you're looking in all the wrong places to make it sound like a terrible option in relation to normal Gardevoir.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

Baton Pass is a terrible gimmick that is made even worse with Talonflame not giving a damn about speed boosts. Baton Passing to something with Gardevoir's non-existent Defense is asking to lose in a metagame filled with physical priority.

If you need Baton Pass to make something sweep, it has no business sweeping in the first place.

I don't think you have had much experience with BP. I started running a BP team recently just for fun, and it had some unexpectedly good results. Scolipede can set up Iron Defense boosts against physical attackers, and passes speed at the same time, meaning that the pass recipient not only outspeeds things that might otherwise threaten it, it also could care less about priority. I paired it with Espeon rather than Garde, because it works better on a full BP team thanks to Magic Bounce, but Garde could fill that role as well. STAB Stored Power is nothing to laugh at after a few boosts, and could be devastating when combined with STAB Fairy moves to get past Dark types.
I can't run the calc right now because of the computer I'm using, but I doubt AV Ttar takes a Pixelate Hyper Voice too well, especially at +1.

 

[iQs__]

I said that Trace gives Gardevoir free switches back into battle when Scizor and Aegislash force it out. Mega Gardevoir is stuck without any defensive ability to get it back into the fray.

Mega Gardevoir is turning down Flash Fire against Heatran, a free Sturdy for switching into Skarmory, Prankster for leading against Klefki, Poison Heal against Gliscor, Natural Cure for switching into Blissey or Celebi, Multiscale to avoid an OHKO from up to a +3 Adamant Dragonite Earthquake with no HP/Def investment, Swift Swim against rain, Chlorophyll against sun, Volt Absorb to wall Jolteon and Thundurus-T, a Sp.Atk boost from Storm Drain and Lightning Rod, Intimidate to soften attacks from Landorus-T and Salamence, Sheer Force Moonblast & Focus Blast, Protean Focus Blasts for leading against Greninja, Magnet Pull-trapping Magnezone, and I could go on. Free immunities, free stat boosts, free defensive buffs, and free healing. Trust in me when I say that Gardevoir-proper has a niche.

1st. Tell me how the "free switch back into battle when Scizor and Aegislash force her out" process works in real battle. As I said, Tracing Technician and Stance Change won't help you. If a Scizor and an Aegislash is out, don't ever think about stay in. Just switch out. I still don't understand what is your point here. Since when Trace becomes a reliable defensive ability to help her switch back into battle when Scizor and Aegislash are there.

2nd. You should remember that Mega-Gardevoir and Gardevoir is the same one. You can choose when you should turn her into a sweeping machine and leave everything behind. You can choose to let her annoy the opponent for a couple of turns with her ability. It is, in fact, what I have done for the past dozens of matches. The bad side of Trace is that, lots of time you have to take a hit because of your switch. And taking a hit with that poor little HP and Defense of Gardevoir is not something you want. You can easily lose 50% of your HP or even more just because of one switch. When I use Gardevoir, I consider a lot when I switch her in. It is not like you throw in a Blissey or a Skarmory or many walls out there. It is very risky. And you can lose her anytime. Don't praise Trace too much because it looks so good on paper. In real matches, it does not live up to the expectations to be honest.

---------

And one more thing, Baton Pass is not a terrible gimmick. Why do you think Ninjask is still in OU for god sake? And now Scolipede? Even Dragonite has a DD-Pass set gosh ... Shell Smash Sashed Smeargle is legit and so are many baton passers out there.