I don't know what your question is?
Whimsicott has base 116 Speed as it is, and Terrakion gets Base 108, so Whimsicott with max speed ALWAYS outspeeds Terrakion at max speed, even without Prankster active.
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General Doubles Metagame Thread
- Thread starter Pocket
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Whimsicott has base 116 Speed as it is, and Terrakion gets Base 108, so Whimsicott with max speed ALWAYS outspeeds Terrakion at max speed, even without Prankster active.
Whimsicott has base 116 speed ? I didn't know it was that fast ! I thought its base speed was 60 or 80 or something, its speed doesn't matter in most cases because of prankster. Sorry for my stupid question.
prankster only affects status moves, by giving them +1 priority. Beat up is not a status move, so it is not affected by prankster, but will still outspeed terrakion
You can also give it a negative nature and 0 Atk IVs, it deals 1% per hit with Beat Up :D
Give Terrakion a Choice Band and suddenly, ROCK SLIDE OF DOOM
Aside from this, I was wondering about the use of the move Pursuit, particularly on a Tyranitar.
Here is a calc:
Although this doesn't seem like much, if you conceal the fact that your Tyranitar has Pursuit for the majority of the game until their Politoed is at ~40%, this could result in a win for your weather, especially if you scare Toed with a strong electric or grass type move from a partner Thundurus or Shaymin.
Of course, it has use with Chandelures and the like, and other pokemon that may flee when they see Ttar.
Another move I was interested in was Magma Storm, esepecially under Gravity or after a Sweet Scent.
It has 120 Power, and with a Binding Band can deplete 1/8 of your opponents HP as well as trapping them. Again, another near-surefire way to rid yourself of a weather inducer on the opposite side.
I was testing Magma Storm, but I had to take a break for school and will return to it soon!
I think I'd like to show an interesting pair I've been having pretty good success with
@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drought
EVs: 4HP, 252Atk, 252Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpAtk)
-Flare Blitz
-Zen Headbutt
-Quick Attack
-Return
Yes, it is a physical ninetales, you aren't going crazy. This thing alone doesn't have much purpose other than putting up sun, but when paired with it's partner, kills things like crazy!
@ Leftovers
Trait: Flower Gift
EVs: 252HP, 4SpAtk, 252SpDef
Nature: Calm (+SpDef -Atk)
-Giga Drain
-Protect
-Synthesis
-Aromatherapy
Cherrim! This little fella has so much awesomeness that just comes from flower gift. Ninetails Flare Blitz now hits just as strong as one from Darmanitan! Cherrim itself is surprisingly bulky on the special side and can stay alive for quite a while with Synthesis/Giga Drain+Protect allowing havoc to be wreaked!
These two offer a lot of surprise value and are very fun to use :P
@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drought
EVs: 4HP, 252Atk, 252Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpAtk)
-Flare Blitz
-Zen Headbutt
-Quick Attack
-Return
Yes, it is a physical ninetales, you aren't going crazy. This thing alone doesn't have much purpose other than putting up sun, but when paired with it's partner, kills things like crazy!
@ Leftovers
Trait: Flower Gift
EVs: 252HP, 4SpAtk, 252SpDef
Nature: Calm (+SpDef -Atk)
-Giga Drain
-Protect
-Synthesis
-Aromatherapy
Cherrim! This little fella has so much awesomeness that just comes from flower gift. Ninetails Flare Blitz now hits just as strong as one from Darmanitan! Cherrim itself is surprisingly bulky on the special side and can stay alive for quite a while with Synthesis/Giga Drain+Protect allowing havoc to be wreaked!
These two offer a lot of surprise value and are very fun to use :P
tehy
Banned deucer.
So blank, i see you looking here, and i was just thinking while watching your replay:Wouldn't it be best to run an intimidate user or two in there? That way, if you see priority users in, you can switch in the intimidate user and soften the blow. (Won't work with metagross, sure, but it will for everyone else)
If you run two, you can switch from one to the other, so it's always an option, but of course that might be too big a strain on teambuilding. You could always run gyarados, maybe with some SpD to absorb water attacks, and replace toxicroak with it. With DD, it could still boost, although it wouldn't be as good as toxicroak at defensively boosting. On the other hand, it'd have boosted water attacks. You could also run an intimidate quilfish for that-it's got some cool options in T-spikes and pain split, as well as STAB Poison Jab.
Also, why zen headbutt on scarftales? It doesn't hit much harder, and while the lack of recoil is probably nice, i don't think you'd be using it too often. Maybe replace it with a status move? It sucks being locked into, say, Wow, but no less so than Zen Headbutt. Or you could run Fire Blast, to hit a physically defensive opponent hard (Not sure there's much call for that, though)
Edit: Well that's fine, but why not cut quick attack? Is there really a point to having it on a scarf set? You're only outsped by faster scarfers in any case. And you could burn him too, if you wanted
Also, penguin, i didn't pay that much attention to tailwind, but... maybe that was why?
Double Edit:If he brought in scarf cloyster earlier, whimsi would've just stun spored it, so that explains that.
If you run two, you can switch from one to the other, so it's always an option, but of course that might be too big a strain on teambuilding. You could always run gyarados, maybe with some SpD to absorb water attacks, and replace toxicroak with it. With DD, it could still boost, although it wouldn't be as good as toxicroak at defensively boosting. On the other hand, it'd have boosted water attacks. You could also run an intimidate quilfish for that-it's got some cool options in T-spikes and pain split, as well as STAB Poison Jab.
Also, why zen headbutt on scarftales? It doesn't hit much harder, and while the lack of recoil is probably nice, i don't think you'd be using it too often. Maybe replace it with a status move? It sucks being locked into, say, Wow, but no less so than Zen Headbutt. Or you could run Fire Blast, to hit a physically defensive opponent hard (Not sure there's much call for that, though)
Edit: Well that's fine, but why not cut quick attack? Is there really a point to having it on a scarf set? You're only outsped by faster scarfers in any case. And you could burn him too, if you wanted
Also, penguin, i didn't pay that much attention to tailwind, but... maybe that was why?
Double Edit:If he brought in scarf cloyster earlier, whimsi would've just stun spored it, so that explains that.
I use Zen Headbutt primarily for evil Terakkion. ZH is the only attack that let's me OHKO it Sun Boosted Flare Blitz falls just short.
Whimsicott + Terrakion was popular but awful in VGC11. Its even worse in a meta where Terrakion has a ton more checks, where Intimidate is widespread, where priority is fairly common and where theres no bring6pick4 rule in place. Its a strategy that was only ever used by terrible players, or used by half-decent players so they had a super easy win condition in the early rounds of a tournament against scrubs. Its the kind of thing you lose to once but then will never lose to again if you have half a brain.
Also if you are going to try and make out like a certain strategy is viable, please don't provide logs where you get double para on a Bullet Punch Metagross, and where your opponent for some reason targets a dead weight Whimsicott instead of a +5 Terrakion with Latios. Why he waits so long before bringing in Scarf Cloyster too, I will never know.
Also if you are going to try and make out like a certain strategy is viable, please don't provide logs where you get double para on a Bullet Punch Metagross, and where your opponent for some reason targets a dead weight Whimsicott instead of a +5 Terrakion with Latios. Why he waits so long before bringing in Scarf Cloyster too, I will never know.
This sorta made me laugh, since on the ladder the only times I've seen anyone lead with Weaville and Terrakion is to use Beat Up. You could not lead with it as you proceed to say but even then, its not too good. Most teams either have a way to outspeed 108 or are Trick Room teams anyways. The only time I lost to a Beat Up user + Terrakion was when I was tired and played like absolute trash (misclicked with Latias, then proceeded to send in Excadrill, forgetting sand wasn't up). So yeah, I agree with PenguinX.
I see a Whimsicott or Weavile and Terrakion on the same team, I assume a Beat Up strat.
In go my pranksters/fake-outers to mean that Terrakion gets flinched and slowed and KO'ed the next turn. It's a very obvious strategy that may work the first time on someone who hasn't seen it yet but it's only going to work that once unless your opponent's built their team terribly wrong.
In go my pranksters/fake-outers to mean that Terrakion gets flinched and slowed and KO'ed the next turn. It's a very obvious strategy that may work the first time on someone who hasn't seen it yet but it's only going to work that once unless your opponent's built their team terribly wrong.
So I won the Doubles Mini-Tour using my Sun team.
The RMT link is there. Check it out if you want. i won't clutter the thread with the full post, but here's the Importable.
The RMT link is there. Check it out if you want. i won't clutter the thread with the full post, but here's the Importable.
Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Moonlight
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Calm Mind
Ninetales @ Iron Ball
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Heat Wave
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Protect
Lilligant (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 188 HP / 68 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Leaf Storm
- Stun Spore
- Protect
Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Power Whip
- Thunder Wave
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave
- Flame Charge
- Protect
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Protect
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Moonlight
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Calm Mind
Ninetales @ Iron Ball
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Heat Wave
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Protect
Lilligant (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 188 HP / 68 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Leaf Storm
- Stun Spore
- Protect
Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Power Whip
- Thunder Wave
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave
- Flame Charge
- Protect
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Protect
Yea, Beat Up + Justified combo seems too much hassle to work. There are plenty of mons that can outrun Terrakion, namely SwSw Kingdra, Sand Rush Excadrill, Trick Room, Tailwind, etc, and this is assuming Scarf Terrakion ;0 Shit like Icy Wind easily slows down Terrakion.
The biggest flaw in this strategy is that Terrakion is vulnerable the turn it's receiving the Atk boosts from Whimsicott, mainly because the opponent is free to double-target Terrakion on that turn.
BlankZero, congrats for conquering SmogDubs first Mini-tour! You've defeated voodoo pimp no less! I've seen your logs with Ferrothorn, and it really does work lol. It's rather surprising such a defensive mon with exploitable weakness like Fire and Fighting can be such a nuisance to remove even in Doubles x.x Certainly a bitch for Rain teams no doubt!
Your RMT link is broken btw ;0 Also commenting on your last replay - I was surprised that the opponent's Metagross's EQ hit like a pussy; either your Ferrothorn was extremely bulky or that Metagross was Modest / 0 IVs in Atk!
The biggest flaw in this strategy is that Terrakion is vulnerable the turn it's receiving the Atk boosts from Whimsicott, mainly because the opponent is free to double-target Terrakion on that turn.
BlankZero, congrats for conquering SmogDubs first Mini-tour! You've defeated voodoo pimp no less! I've seen your logs with Ferrothorn, and it really does work lol. It's rather surprising such a defensive mon with exploitable weakness like Fire and Fighting can be such a nuisance to remove even in Doubles x.x Certainly a bitch for Rain teams no doubt!
Your RMT link is broken btw ;0 Also commenting on your last replay - I was surprised that the opponent's Metagross's EQ hit like a pussy; either your Ferrothorn was extremely bulky or that Metagross was Modest / 0 IVs in Atk!
Thanks Pocket!
Yes, Ferro is stupid bulky. Max Defense puts him at over 400+ and then Max HP on top of that too? Metagross doesn't get STAB on EQ either, so it honestly doesn't do a lot. Normally my Ferrothorn doesn't die to any physical attack, even a STAB CC from Terrakion can't OHKO at 100%.
Also, with Beat Up, Tailwind is almost mandatory for its use, as a slow Terrakion is a dead Terrakion.
And I fixed the link. Looks like I added a bracket too soon in the coding.
I think you guys are overrating Ferrothorn. He's bulky as all hell, yeah, but he's not particularly strong. Gyro Ball can be a real menace, to be sure, but Power Whip is inaccurate despite its very high BP, and Ferrothorn's attack of 287 isn't anything to write home about. Sure, he destroys water/ground mons, but Power Whip is really his only effective attack - Steel is a very shit attacking type. Grass doesn't have great coverage, and Leech Seed, while obnoxious, isn't terribly painful. Plus he's just complete dead weight against Sun Teams, and Rain teams have ways to handle him. Honestly, forget about killing Ferrothorn and leave him for last if you're on a rain team...or you can use a certain fiery moth that I'm going to give an extensive review to soon.
There's also Toxicroak for handling him on Rain Teams. Ferrothorn can't even hope to scratch him save the extremely rare Bulldoze variant, while Toxicroak threatens him with double leftovers recovery and a STAB Drain Punch. Toxicroak also has extreme use for fighting opposing rain teams, which Toxicroak walls to hell and back.
There's also Toxicroak for handling him on Rain Teams. Ferrothorn can't even hope to scratch him save the extremely rare Bulldoze variant, while Toxicroak threatens him with double leftovers recovery and a STAB Drain Punch. Toxicroak also has extreme use for fighting opposing rain teams, which Toxicroak walls to hell and back.
I believe you are UNDERESTIMATING Ferrothorn, in the way most Singles players underestimate Latias. It's not an offensive powerhouse, most definitely, but it can win 2v1 matches no problem with a combo of Double Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, and Protect.
As for Toxicroak, I carry Cresselia, who murders the frog after a CM boost with Psyshock, and Ferro takes hits from Croak like a boss anyhow, as Croak doesn't have anything Special and Fighting to hit it with, so its 400+ Defense will eventually win out against non-sub variants, which Doubles tends to see a huge lack of.
Power Whip is the better STAB over Gyro Ball when carrying TWave, and while it does occasionally miss, it's really not your go-to attack anyhow, as unless everything is Seeded and Paralyzed, if you used Protect last turn, you shouldn't be using it. Bulldoze might be fun to try though as more Speed Control is always good. :)
That's four turns of setup that relies on hax that can also be really hurt by swapping the mons out. Anyone who lets you get to that situation and has no answer by that point deserves to lose. I know I said "You should just save Ferrothorn for last," but that also means you need to keep your Ferrothorn answer in the wings. Wait until he has a lot of that set up, switch in Ferrothorn counter, watch it have to either retreat or die, wasting all of that setup.
I agree that Cresselia utterly murders Toxicroak with Psyshock, calm mind Cresselia is a really really underrated set that deserves love IMO. However, Toxicroak can fight back and dent the space duck with Sucker Punch, although he can't really beat it sadly without partner aid. The space duck doesn't have any (reliable) recovery, so these numbers are a bit better then they look.
Code:
252Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/0Def Levitate Cresselia (Neutral): 32% - 38% (144 - 170 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/252Def Levitate Cresselia (Neutral): 26% - 31% (116 - 138 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.Agreed on the Power Whip note. Still, once again, four. Turns. Of. Setup. Bulldoze support is kind of weird as it requires levitate/flying mons - so it's only really good for a handful of potential teams.
You don't really need flying+levitate to run EQ.. just Protect.
Yes but you do not have to waste a turn protecting if you have levitate
Protect/Twave Precdictions/Leech Seed.
I have many answers for Ferrothorn counters, which are few and far between, or I lose it SUPER early in the game because of a fuckup on my part, That gives me many chances to either recover from the loss, or I lose, but usually I recover.
Cress gets Moonlight, which heals 33% HP EVEN IN RAIN, which means Toxicroak dies regardless.
With Torn-T being banned/NOT EVER USED in Doubles, I have nothing to fear except for either a random as shit HP Fire Manaphy or Focus Miss (lol).
I usually run Ferro with Cresselia myself, so that takes care of that.
Any other arguments that make Ferrothorn not as good as I think he is?
That turns it into eight turns. No sane player is going to let you get eight turns of set up with Ferrothorn.
And I have multiple answers to Ferrothorn on my rain team.
33% is horrible. Moonlight would be bad even if it was 50% in all weathers. Your theoretical set is Psyshock / Calm Mind / Moonlight, which is a very bad set. You are completely walled by Tyranitar and other dark (and steel, which amusingly enough includes skarmory even though he sees no use in doubles) types unless you give up protect, and then you have no access to Protect, good day Cresselia.
also moonlight heals 25% in rain. which is really loving bad.
Tornadus-T is still p. decent even in Doubles honestly. And you still have Volcarona, Toxicroak, Latios, all sorts of stuff to fear. Rain teams don't need to exclusively have rain mons. In fact you can even use Keldeo to check Ferrothorn if you use HP Fighting or Focus Blast instead of Sacred Sword (which isn't very important when a physical partner can swoop in to save the day vs fat blobs and friends).
So once again, I repeat: Dedicated Cress support to the point that you're using a suboptimal cress set to beat one of Ferro's counters, and four-to-eight turn set up for something that doesn't even guarantee a win. Once again, I don't think Ferrothorn's bad, but really that sounds like too much work to be considered "amazing." If we were doing viability tiers, I'd say he'd fall in B tier.
Oh yeah and he's complete dead weight against Sun teams and any team with fire type attacks so there's that.
EDIT: HAHAHAHAHA 300TH POST
The thing is, I've never lost to another sun team and I've lost more games to Hail than to Rain, as Hail has to gear toward Sun Teams and Rain teams are usually pretty lazy about Sun counters.
We could agree to disagree, but Ferrothorn has won me more games IN SUN than I can count at this point, which says something about his massive bulk and staying power in Doubles.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8421849 Regiggas VS the world
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