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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. ooh_shiny

    ooh_shiny

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    I'm really enjoying this metagame so far :)

    I've been using this really trollish sableye set and it's working wonders :P

    [​IMG]
    Careful (Leftovers)
    252 HP/ 6 Def/ 252 SpD
    -Will-o-wisp
    -Confuse ray
    -Recover
    -Substitute/ Protect

    I usually pair sableye with something that would like to take physical hits better. Sub or Protect both have their merits- sub is to block status since sableye would not like being paralyzed and I would often have times where the opponent has two pokemon confused so I can take advantage of it. Protect is better if you want to stall out moves or evade two or more moves directed towards you.

    I usually use this thing mid-game and it can really turn the tide of battle. Scizor ruining your fun with its Bullet Punch and Bug Bite? Will-o-Wisp it.
    Swift swimmers too fast? Confuse ray them before they can move.
  2. lucariojr

    lucariojr quell the storm and ride the thundurus
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    ^definitely use fake out over protect.

    anyway i tried deo-A tonight, but i can't really say anything about it since i didn't have many real battles. in the few good battles that i had, feint support was definitely useful. here's the (terrible) team i used:

    Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Atk
    Naive Nature
    - Psycho Boost
    - Superpower
    - Ice Beam
    - Protect

    Infernape @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Spd / 76 SAtk / 180 Atk
    Naive Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Heat Wave
    - Feint
    - Fake Out

    Garchomp @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 156 HP / 68 Atk / 30 Def / 84 Spd / 172 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Protect

    Tyranitar @ Passho Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Crunch
    - Rock Slide
    - Low Kick
    - Protect

    Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Hydro Pump

    Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Trick Room
    - Ice Punch
    - Protect

    jirachi also did work, but i would like it more if it was slower.
  3. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    Try a faster fake out user over Infernape with Taunt like Weavile, or put U Turn over Feint.

    Also, try HP grass on Rotom-W or Gastrodon will prove a nuisance.
  4. lucariojr

    lucariojr quell the storm and ride the thundurus
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    i think you're missing the point of feint. i mean i might try feint weavile, but feint is incredibly useful for its +2 priority (to kill sash users or weakened pranksters before they can launch a +1 priority attack) and the fact that it breaks protect on the spot. if you taunt them to stop their protects they'll just switch out but with feint they won't have time to react. if you can get a feel for what will protect, deo-a is basically guaranteed a kill.

    and i might try hp grass if i ever decide to use this team again. if i do pick it up again i'll probably redo the whole thing lol (especially swords dance chomp)
  5. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Professional
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    Am I missing something with Garchomp? It's #4 in usage, but I've honestly never been impressed by it. It has no reliable, powerful STAB. Outrage is unreliable, Earthquake is weak and unreliable, Dragon Claw is weak, Swords Dance is difficult to set up. I mean it doesn't seem like a bad Pokemon, great typing, Attack, and decent bulk, but I don't really get why I see it so much.
  6. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    Maybe because it has high attack and a Dual STAB that is only resisted by a total of 2 pokemon in the game.
  7. -FUCK-

    -FUCK-

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    VGC players use Garchomp competitively, but they get to take advantage of his evasion ability (and even combine it with bright powder). Subbing can become game changing with the aid of evasion. We really outta remove the evasion clause from this meta, it's unnecessary since so many traditionally "broken" things can be managed with the strategies and dynamics of doubles.

    Garchomp also has the niche of being the second fastest dragon, having immunity to thunder wave, rock resist, and bulkiness. But yeah, his STAB's base powers are weak, he's susceptible to intimidate, and Cresselia's with ice beam/icy wind can shit all over him.

    To demonstrate how crummy 80 BP STAB can be, I wanted to try a swagger/lum strategy with Kyurem-B, but looking at damage calcs were disappointing. Even at +2 adamant, he still can't reliably OHKO 252hp Tyranitar / Srafty / Conk/ Victini, bulky Gastrodon / Jellicent / Togekiss / Amoonguss, (and probably some others I'm forgetting) with Dragon Claw. I guess 80 base power just truly borders on weak if even 170 base atk at +2 can't reliably one shot modestly bulky pokemon.
  8. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    Bam, the ONLY reason people use it on any team that doesn't use its resistances at all.
  9. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    This thread has slowed down a bit, so since I was playing around w/ a team I slapped together for a bit to test out some ideas I had, I figured I'd post on my findings:

    Here's the team I used:
    supercool team (open)
    tree (Abomasnow) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Blizzard
    - Ice Shard
    - Giga Drain
    - Protect

    catdog (Suicune) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald
    - Blizzard
    - Rest

    beyblade (Hitmontop) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Sucker Punch
    - Wide Guard

    bug (Scizor) @ Metal Coat
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Bullet Punch
    - Bug Bite
    - Protect

    landshark (Garchomp) @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Protect

    moth (Volcarona) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 96 Spd / 252 SAtk / 160 HP
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Heat Wave
    - Bug Buzz
    - Rage Powder
    - Protect

    Ik it has flaws but it was mostly for testing, and it peaked in the 1930s and #19 on the alt tony the superhero, so it had some modest success.

    On the topic of Garchomp, I agree with Ace Emerald. When I was using it, I found that while its Ground STAB was useful to hit Steels and it has a nice Speed tier, but Dragon Claw really is too weak. Combined with the fact that plenty of Pokemon run Ice type coverage moves, Garchomp will oftentimes find itself too weak to KO things before taking a lot of damage. I do think that its typing and Speed tier offer plenty of reason to use Garchomp on certain teams, but it's certainly not something I'd just put onto a team the way I might with Hitmontop or something.

    In the past I discussed CM Suicune, but it was pretty lackluster when I was using it this time. While its physical bulk was great to ease my matchup against Sun, it is pretty weak without a few boosts, which it struggles to snag in the metagame (although me using Scald probably didn't help with that). Also, the fact that there's no room for Protect was problematic on more than one occassion.

    The set that I found the most success with was an offensive support Volcarona I used. The EVs were meant to outspeed neutral Base 70s while giving it as much power as possible. The idea came from a few VGC teams I saw that used Rage Powder Volcarona, and since I didn't want to use other Rage Powder/Follow Me users since they didn't have as much offensive power, and it was very useful thanks to its Fighting resistance, high Special Attack, and Flame Body among other things. Sitrus Berry was chosen since the healing could be useful to redirect multiple attacks in one turn instead of having it die. So yeah, RP Volcarona, try it out.
  10. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    I like the idea of Rage Powder, but I find Amoongus a better user overall, due to its Fighting resist, spore and regenerator, paired with its bulk. You could even troll with RP and Effect Spore for Fake Out leads, but Regenerator is such a great ability to abuse. I'll do some tests with a new team sometime soon and post my results.

    In other news, my old Sun Team works. I did replace Heatran and Terrakion with Scarf Chandelure and Max Defensive Kyub, which is performing even better now, but the core of Tales/Lilligant/Cress/Ferro is still very, very effective.
  11. Audiosurfer

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    RP + Effect Spore and RP + Flame Body are pretty similar except for the fact that you'll only get 1 status w/ Flame Body. It also screws over Fake Out users better due to higher Speed and the fact that most of them are physically oriented, meaning they won't enjoy being burned. Also, Volcarona also has a Fighting resistance, and while it does miss out on Spore, it also has higher Speed and Special Attack, meaning it can also dish out plenty of damage when necessary unlike Amoonguss, so that comparison isn't entirely true.
  12. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    Why not use both??? RP Volc first turn while you spore something with Amoongus, then QD with Volc while you RP off of Amoongus. The only thing here is spread moves, but Amoongus can threaten Waters and Rock types, while Volc can threaten even Fire Types with its awesome SpAtk.

    Like I said, I'll run some tests later and post the results before I make a definitive answer, but either setup should work, and Volc definitely has the surprise advantage.
  13. ChaosAkita

    ChaosAkita

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    What's the point of Abomasnow/Hail in this metagame?
  14. Snaquaza

    Snaquaza

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    No miss Blizzard that hits both opponents
  15. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Winner of the Biggest Dork Competition 2014
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    Abomasnow not only cancels out other weathers, but provides your team with a 120 BP spread attack that can't miss, doesn't hit your teammate, and has great coverage. On top of that, hazards are rare, and the only common Rock move is Rock Slide. If you build your team right, it matches up well against all of the other weathers out there as well. There is literally no downside to Hail in this metagame.
  16. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    You know what might be good for this thread? Changing the topic of the week. I've been waiting for that to happen since February.
  17. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    New topic: Weather Vs Goodstuffs

    Trick Room/Tailwind can fall under Goodstuffs in this discussion.
  18. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    [5:54pm] Pwnemon: "New topic: Weather Vs Goodstuffs"
    [5:55pm] carl: most good teams use both

    ^ Basically that. a team can absolutely function without weather, but it doesn't work both ways; a team that isn't prepared to work outside of its intended weather is gonna suck. Like Mantyke noted in his recent Smog article, a good Rain team will be prepared to beat non-rain—even if it means using things that don't benefit from Rain at all. This, obviously, extends to all other weather teams, and even every other team archetype, whether it be running a Scarfer on your TR team or what have you. overall though, there's not much to analyze here, mostly because:

    [5:54pm] Pwnemon: weather teams work, goodstuff teams work
    [5:54pm] Pwnemon: they are both similar in that they are teams that work if they are good teams
    [5:54pm] Pwnemon: at least narrow it down to something where we can actually compare the two, like hail vs sun...

    double posting because all must hail the words of grand master Zach:

    [box][01:47am] Zach: it's singles players' mindsets in general
    [01:48am] Zach: knee-jerk reaction to identify a team based on its main gimmick
    [01:48am] Zach: "rain" "trick room" "tailwind"
    [01:48am] Zach: "that team has a politoed LABEL IT RAIN AND WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN GIMMICK"
    [01:48am] Zach: ^the type of thinking I'm talking about that drives me nuts
    [01:49am] Zach: if it's
    [01:49am] Zach: "rainroom"
    [01:49am] Zach: well sure cool you told me its gimmicks
    [01:49am] Zach: thank you I appreciate that, now what are the 6 mons besides Politoed[/box]

    I admit, I personally happen to fall into this trap way too often. I got caught in the pervasive singles mindset of 'weather wars,' where it's not individual Pokemon but playstyles that win you games. Well, let me tell you folks that is wrong as hell in doubles. I spent far too many battles going 'he has hail, I have rain, I must ensure rain wins' rather than assessing each individual Pokemon based on its strengths and weaknesses and determining that Scizor, Hitmontop, Kyurem are going to be a lot more useful for my endgame strategy than my rain abusers. This probably led to a lot of losses I didn't have to take. After my mind was expanded / blown by this revelation, zach and i played a couple of matches together. the first was kind of shitty because he was using a vgc team that wasn't even particularly great in vgc, but the second is here. I'm certain that without that advice he just gave me, I would have lost. When I realized that Sun was going to be up nearly the entire battle, instead of frantically re-switching politoed like a madman (which would have led to a sure loss), I focused on taking down his Pokemon one-by-one, even when I was in the wrong weather. Because that's the secret: whether or not your opponent's favored field condition is up, they can't win if all their pokemon are dead. it sounds so stupid, but like most other people here, i came in with singles experience, and this is nothing short of a goddamn revelation.
  19. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    What do you people think about Shifting Gears Genesect for doubles? It can carry a powerful Explosion, it can use Blaze Kick on the sun and has good resistances. I suppose a Blaze Kick set is sort of a dead weight against Rain, but you have a few other options.
  20. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    That's a damn good summation of Doubles mindsets, and probably something I should think about myself. My sun team would do well in rain because I built it to counter rain, yet it doesn't do so hot against something like SandStall, mostly because I'm not thinking correctly. A team that can function well in and out of its weather or setup will do a million times better than a team that dominates in one weather and flounders in anything else.

    Great double post Pwnemon. Maybe it will help me out considering how poorly I played this week at OMPL.
  21. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Audiosurfer, super cool team you got there xP I particularly like Scizor, since it pairs well with Suicune, Hitmontop, Garchomp, and Volcarona to an extent. Rage Powder Volcarona also seems useful as an offensive partner to remove Ferrothorn, Abomasnow, and Cresselia that may give this team a headache.

    I had played around with CM Rest Rain Manaphy, so I can understand your frustration with your CM Suicune, which shares identical pitfalls. Why not try Tail Glow Manaphy? All you need is 1 turn to end up with +3 Manaphy and Blizz Spam! You can also have a spare slot for Protect instead of Rest now.

    Pwnemon, imo, your conclusion applies to Singles as well. A Rain team is merely a team with Politoed in it - the other 5 Pokemon can be as weather-dependent or weather-independent as the player may choose.

    If your team is mainly using weather to disrupt the opponent's team, then keeping up your weather have little effect in winning the game. However, if your win condition (ie Kingdra) depends on weather, then not having it up would slow you down. Your replay illustrated that. You won despite not keeping Rain up, but you would have won more easily if you had kept Rain up longer by switching out Politoed. That is why I like having Rain Dance on my Rain team, because it doesn't force me to lose turns switching out and bringing back Politoed to re-summon Rain.
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Topic of the Week 3

    Sorry for 2x posting, but I want to put up a new Topic of the Week (or month / who knows? :X). Before I do, though, I want to reward the participants from the previous topic on Trick Room. Best Poster goes to Mr.E for nailing some big points in his post - namely that 1) TR is a powerful strategy because it circumvents other forms of speed control in Doubles, 2) Ghost-types are among the best TR setters thanks to their immunity to Fake Out, and 3) How TR teams can make use of their invested bulk outside of TR. Other Quality posters include Exeggutor, Braverius, Mr.lol, and Audiosurfer. Exeggutor shared and explained in great detail about her Hail TR team, while Braverius told us the reason that makes Trick Room more potent in Doubles than in VGC. Mr.lol provided an wholesome response to this topic, as well as providing various ways to counter Trick Room. Audiosurfer also showed in his posts how his and his opposing team went about in dealing with Trick Room when building their teams. Joim also received many points for being an overall active participant in this topic! Here is the point breakdown:

    +4 - Joim (4 posts)
    +3 - Mr.E, Audiosurfer (2 posts)
    +2 - Exeggutor, Braverius, Mr.lol,
    +1 - youngjake93, Arcticblast, Firestorm, StarmanXL

    OK, the Third Topic of the week is THIS: Benchmarks for EVs!

    [​IMG]

    If you know the VGC crowd, you know how elaborate their EV spreads end up becoming to fully optimize their Pokemon. In this topic we'll be exploring the various benchmarks that one may use to help facilitate this process. The benchmarks can be divided into three groups - Attack, Defense, and Speed. Speed benchmarks are the most obvious ones, where people take note of various speed thresholds for their Pokemon to outrun. Attack benchmarks can mostly be seen in tanks or mixed sweepers, who must spread their EVs thinner than pure physical or special sweepers. For this benchmark, people aim to EV their offenses just enough to KO a defending mon of interest with high consistency (example Atk benchmarks - EVs to: OHKO a min HP Latios or a max HP Chople Tar). Defense benchmarks are useful when distributing EVs into Defense, to ensure your defensive Pokemon survives a common move from a prevalent threat (example Def benchmarks - EVs to survive: Close Combat from Terrakion).

    Here is what we'll do for this topic:
    • List and Explain some important Attack, Defense, and Speed benchmarks. Higher priority goes towards Defense, then Attack, and finally Speed.
    • Create and / or Share some customized spread of your own that takes advantages of such benchmarks. Offer replays of this spread in action!

    At the end of our discussion, I aim to compile a list of benchmarks and quality examples that were given in this topic as a reference that we can all use when teambuilding ;)
  23. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    Since this has been around for a while and is a tad different then VGC and also is harder to get into then most metas I feel like a Viablity Ranking Thread would be nice to help newer people.
  24. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    It depends on your team. If you use a bulky stall team with only one or two offensive powerhouses (likely to be bulky as well), you can run speed-lowering natures as well as 0 Speed IV's on a few mons (not all though), even without utilizing TR yourself, as you don't need that speed but are certainly going to need as much bulk as you can get.

    If your team is fast and frail (not recommended because lol Trick Room, and some things that have hellish bulk and T-Wave), a lot of speed is obviously crucial.

    Crucial to note is that, when you don't use Speed, you need bulk. If you don't have either, you suck. Something that can outspeed Terrakion and Volcarona without boosts and Scarf is nice (less necessary if you opt to run TR though, as TR is bulky in general and you outspeed them in the twisted dimensions).

    If you opt the bulky way, you just need a whole whack of bulk. Think of Cresselia, Ferrothorn and other things that have similar bulk. You don't even need to hit hard in this case, as stall relying on passive damage (with a bulky powerhouse or two, like Conkeldurr or Reuniclus), is quite viable. It brought my mediocre alt straight into the top 50.
  25. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Out of interest, in the show Dome King Tucker uses Arcanine and Swampert as the PERFECT battle combination.
    Does that work here? Fire and Water, Arcanine and Swampert as a lead pair when going in?
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