Generation 5 tiers, an initial list.

[JabbaTheGriffin]

That banlist is terrible.

The people arguing for some of the Pokemon to be dropped aren't even going to be voting for a banlist so I see no reason for their opinion to have any weight as of course they want to be as minimalistic as possible. From what I've seen people that are actually going to vote for a banlist are big fans of some slight variation of Rising Dusk's first banlist and I would much rather see that used.

I mean if we had to bear down and accept something like that to get more votes then sure why not it definitely does save time, but I'm not quite sure that's the case unless people start coming out of nowhere saying they'll switch sides for that banlist. That is the only way I'd support that banlist.

 

[Bologo]

I agree with the new banlist, and I think it's a good compromise for people who want a banlist and people who don't want one. I personally think it was a good call on not putting Reshiram and Zekrom on there, since we've literally not played with them at all. I don't know how long they'll actually last (hell, they could stay forever, who knows), but I think it's good that both sides are starting to come together. Unfortunately, I do think the banlist supporters are going to have do to a little compromising of their own to actually accept that banlist, but I hope they do, just in case we do decide to start with a banlist.

For the record, I actually will vote for a banlist if it's willing to actually go with as few bans as possible like this one, since those are most definitely the most powerful pokemon in the game.

 

[gengod]

That banlist is terrible.

The people arguing for some of the Pokemon to be dropped aren't even going to be voting for a banlist so I see no reason for their opinion to have any weight as of course they want to be as minimalistic as possible. From what I've seen people that are actually going to vote for a banlist are big fans of some slight variation of Rising Dusk's first banlist and I would much rather see that used.

I mean if we had to bear down and accept something like that to get more votes then sure why not it definitely does save time, but I'm not quite sure that's the case unless people start coming out of nowhere saying they'll switch sides for that banlist. That is the only way I'd support that banlist.

I agree.

Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Zekrom

This was Dusk's original list. However I still feel we are accomplishing more with a list like the following.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-a
Deoxys-s
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Wobbuffet
Zekrom

All of the Pokemon that are on, most people agree are pretty much worth not testing at the moment, while all of the ones left off like Shaymin-S are pretty controversial. Anything else left on the list can always be tested at a later date so it's not like we're completely eliminating these Pokemon from OU.

Sure we could go with a minimalist ban list but with that we aren't exactly accomplishing what this ban list aims to do in the first place.

I agree with the new banlist, and I think it's a good compromise for people who want a banlist and people who don't want one. I personally think it was a good call on not putting Reshiram and Zekrom on there, since we've literally not played with them at all. I don't know how long they'll actually last (hell, they could stay forever, who knows), but I think it's good that both sides are starting to come together. Unfortunately, I do think the banlist supporters are going to have do to a little compromising of their own to actually accept that banlist, but I hope they do, just in case we do decide to start with a banlist.

For the record, I actually will vote for a banlist if it's willing to actually go with as few bans as possible like this one, since those are most definitely the most powerful pokemon in the game.

It's honestly a horrible call not putting Zekrom and Reshiram on the initial list. Some of us have played with them. Obviously not extensively but it honestly doesn't take much to see they do not belong in OU.

 

[bojangles]

Here's a post from locopoke, who, despite not having PR access, has had a pivotal role in the ban list creation.

My proposed ban list is as follows:

Mewtwo
Mew
Ho-oh
Lugia
Wobbuffet
Groudon
Kyogre
Rayquaza
Deoxys-S
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Giratina-O
Darkrai
Arceus
Reshiram
Zekrom

After thinking about it, I'm not all too satisfied with Rising_Dusk's most recent list, despite having helped him make it on IRC. I don't like the fact that the no-ban list supporters have practically whithered our ban list down to nothing. This is similar to Rising_Dusk's original list (as seen in Maniac's post), except that this bans Lugia and Wobbuffet.

People are claiming that Lugia won't be as good of a wall in Gen 5 as it was in Gen 4, I'm not buying it though. As Jabba stated in a previous post, we all thought Blissey wasn't going to wall things going into Gen 4 but that clearly wasn't the case. As someone who has played a good amount of Gen 5 on Pokemon-Online, I can definitely say that there are still many Pokemon that Lugia absolutely shuts down. While PO might not be complete, enough of Gen 5 is implemented to see what a possible metagame might be like, and it's not nearly as offensive as people are claiming it is. This also applies to Wobbuffet. Despite the Pokemon being somewhat more powerful than they were in Gen 4, Wobbuffet is still stupidly good to the point where it makes playing the game not fun. It takes absolutely no skill or prediction to use and grants free kills. This might also be the case with Shanderaa, but it is definitely to a lesser extent. Shanderaa forces most players to equip their support Pokemon with Shed Shell and almost all sweepers completely man handle Shanderaa to a point where in most battles it's hardly even useful. This isn't the case with Wobbuffet. Not only that, but there hasn't been an official B/W metagame so it's not right for us to ban any 5th Gen Pokemon other than the box legends. I honestly don't think anybody is going to switch to our side because we have Wobbuffet unbanned, same goes for Lugia. As for Ho-oh being banned, the reasons on the last page of this thread for unbanning it are illogical. Bologo himself even admitted to forgetting that Ho-oh learned Brave Bird. Ho-oh is a top threat even in Gen 4 Ubers, from the experience I've had so far with B/W I don't see how it will be any different this gen, if not even worse. We shouldn't let the opinions of people effect us if those people aren't going to be voting for our ban list anyway. I feel that the ban list I've presented is the perfect balance between Rising_Dusk's original ban list and his minimalist one.

I personally think this ban list is one of the better ones in the thread.

 

[Veedrock]

This post is based off of maniac's list, but the arguments are universal.

I don't have complete contempt against allowing Lugia, but we should definitely be wary of it for reasons SDS and Jabba stated. I know certain people have said Lugia was underwhelming in games they played but A) if you don't see it that much that does not mean it's underwhelming and B) that conclusion likely came from battles where other pokemon in our banlist were allowed (like Zekrom). Not implying that either of these were the case but I doubt anybody was able to see the full picture off of a few battles.

I completely disagree with an immediate Wobbuffet ban. There are other pokemon with Shadow Tag that we're not even considering here, including one that can set up on its own. Frankly its the ability itself that is devastating, not his support capabilities (you can find setup for your pokemon without dedicating two pokemon slots to it, really). On top of that, provided we play with the mechanic of revealing teams, Wobb has a much tougher time doing what it needs to when the opponent can be cautious of it. Wobbuffet does gain a secondary ability via Dream World, so if nothing else, I would like us leave Wobbuffet unbanned, and then evaluate our position on Shadow Tag as a whole.

EDIT: Rephrasing the third sentence: He's devastating as a result of Shadow Tag, his standalone support capabilities are null.

I think Mew would be a bit much, especially if we allow Deoxys-S. Mew would put Gligar to shame in Dual Screen to BP. I'm on edge here, there's no guarantee it'll be great with team reveal but at the same time if it is it'll be a bitch. I notice that locopoke's list excludes Deoxys-N/A, but no reasoning. Frankly Deoxys is way too fast and hits way too hard, even if its frail you have to have the opportunity to actually hit it. ExtremeSpeed also has +2 priority now, something to keep in mind.

Some miscellaneous notes: Can we start putting our lists by dex number (like locopoke's)? So much easier to comprehend and ensure nothing was missed. And will Soul Dew be allowed initially or should we impliment a Soul Dew clause (considering its even in the game)? What's the consensus on Kyurem? I haven't seen any discussion on it that's why I'm asking.

 

[gengod]

I've spoken about this on IRC a lot but I'm going to present it here as well. Any list that has Mew unbanned along with the faster Deoxys forms is going to cause a pretty big problem. As we all know Mew is generally considered to be the best Baton Passer in the game and with dual screens up it is near impossible to stop it from passing and this was in a tier with Pokemon considerably stronger than even what was introduced in Gen 5.

Even if we did decide to include Lugia on our initial list, having both Mew and those Deoxys forms allowed is something I definitely see as being very detrimental to the metagame and am very much against it.

This post is based off of maniac's list, but the arguments are universal.

I don't have complete contempt against allowing Lugia, but we should definitely be wary of it for reasons SDS and Jabba stated. I know certain people have said Lugia was underwhelming in games they played but A) if you don't see it that much that does not mean it's underwhelming and B) that conclusion likely came from battles where other pokemon in our banlist were allowed (like Zekrom)

Pokemon like Zekrom were definitely not included in battles with Lugia. Lugia probably be even more underwhelming in that case. Lugia has problems with a fair amount of Pokemon, Tyranitar, Shandeera, Sazando, Borotusu, Urugamosu, Terakion and Kyuremu are just to name a few off the top of my head.

I completely disagree with an immediate Wobbuffet ban. There are other pokemon with Shadow Tag that we're not even considering here, including one that can be just as dangerous if not more. Frankly its the ability itself that is devastating, not his support capabilities (you can find setup for your pokemon without dedicating two pokemon slots to it, really). On top of that, provided we play with the mechanic of revealing teams, Wobb has a much tougher time doing what it needs to when the opponent can be cautious of it. Wobbuffet does gain a secondary ability via Dream World, so if nothing else, I believe it should start off unbanned, and then we should evaluate our position on Shadow Tag as a whole.

Shadow Tag by itself isn't the problem. The problem with Wobbuffet arises because of a combination of his ability, his stats and his movepool. The decision to eliminate him from OU is not simply because of Shadow Tag.

 

[reyscarface]

I would like to know how we plan on getting to the last list, because I thought if a Pokemon had some controversy about being on the banlist or not, it shouldnt be there, but I think I may be wrong?

And again I ask, what are we going to do about Darkrai, id simply put him above a lot of mons in that list on a "theorymon" aspect but thats really not a good argument, so id really like to see more opinions on whats up with him.

Also some people on IRC keep telling me we are taking into account Soul Dew Clause for this banlist, is this true?

 

[Hipmonlee]

If it comes to a vote, I will vote for RD's banlist.

I wont vote for a banlist that contains Wobbuffet. As for the other pokes.. I am unsure, I probably wont put in the effort to actually verify with enough certainty that everything on that list is broken, when I could just vote for no initial bans.

Have a nice day.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I've spoken about this on IRC a lot but I'm going to present it here as well. Any list that has Mew unbanned along with the faster Deoxys forms is going to cause a pretty big problem. As we all know Mew is generally considered to be the best Baton Passer in the game and with dual screens up it is near impossible to stop it from passing and this was in a tier with Pokemon considerably stronger than even what was introduced in Gen 5.

Even if we did decide to include Lugia on our initial list, having both Mew and those Deoxys forms allowed is something I definitely see as being very detrimental to the metagame and am very much against it.

Pokemon like Zekrom were definitely not included in battles with Lugia. Lugia probably be even more underwhelming in that case. Lugia has problems with a fair amount of Pokemon, Tyranitar, Shandeera, Sazando, Borotusu, Urugamosu, Terakion and Kyuremu are just to name a few off the top of my head.

Okay, you've named a couple Pokemon that do well against Lugia. However, something that ChouToshio brought up that I really cannot overstate is the significance of "the average pokemon vs. the potential uber". Sure, there are non-Uber Pokemon that perform well against certain Pokemon, but the real question comes when you look at how Pokemon other than these specific ones fare. If it's "you must have one of these pokemon or your team auto-loses to it hands down no contest" then that's a problem. If it's "you must have one of these pokemon or you'll have to play some tricky games with this pokemon to keep it from going on a rampage" then we're in business. There's a difference between a Pokemon being difficult to handle without its supercounters and a Pokemon being impossible to handle without its supercounters. That's where I see the line between Lugia and stuff like Deoxys and Deoxys-A. Even if you happen to not have a super hard counter to one of Deoxys-A's specific set, you can still handle that set with some smart play, decent prediction, and maybe a couple scarfers or priority users or something like that. In the case of Lugia, if you don't have something that can step up and annihilate it, it's basically going to wall you to the ends of the earth and back, and there's nothing you can do about it. When the issue is "have these specific pokemon alive or get instapwned", you've got issues.

I'd also like to note that Kyogre, a Pokemon that is pretty much universally considered to be one of the hands down broken Pokemon, falls into this same category. Sure you can handle it with Latios/Latias, Quagsire, Gastrodon (thanks Storm Drain), Ludicolo, maybe a ridiculously specially defensive Celebi or Shaymin, etc, but if you don't have these specific specialized counters, your ass is toast. I believe Lugia is the same way. And in some cases, Mew is the same way. You either have to absolutely positively never ever give it a chance to set up, or you have to have a Mischievous Heart Taunt user, and barring those two, it will likely flat out ruin your day without fail.

Shadow Tag by itself isn't the problem. The problem with Wobbuffet arises because of a combination of his ability, his stats and his movepool. The decision to eliminate him from OU is not simply because of Shadow Tag.

I can't agree more. Further, what would the point of evaluating "Shadow Tag" by itself be? We've already gone on record as not supporting specific ability bans.

To sum it up:

In favor of Lugia, Wobbuffet, Mew bans
Opposed to Deoxys-anything bans (though these are the pokemon that i'm most on the fence about, but on the fence is pretty much the definition of being in favor of not starting banned)

EDIT: I'd like to note that the banlist posted by proxy from locopoke is pretty much exactly what i'd like to see in a banlist.

 

[reyscarface]

Ok we spoke on IRC about it, and it seems that the concensus is that we are actually using a "if the Pokemon has INTELLIGENT reasoning for not being on the list and is controversial, it will not be added" kind of mentality. With that said, I will repost Rising Dusk's list here, as I pretty much think everyone agrees its the one with the mons that youll never see in OU in Gen 5.

Arceus
Dialga
Groudon
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
-----
Giratina
Giratina-O
Ho-Oh
Reshiram
Zekrom
Darkrai


The last mons on that list are the ones we have come to the conclusion are the ones that have "no controversy" and should be added to the banlist.

A pretty interesting case is Darkrai, whom ive been asking for feedback a good amount of times but there wasnt any answer. For some reason Darkrai kept being out of the banlist, although there hasnt been any controversy regarding if its broken or not, which seems quite weird if youre going to remove it from the banlist. In fact, the first time I asked about Darkrai, people said "its controversial", to which I answered "why", considering there had been 0 arguments as to why Darkrai shouldnt be on the list. In the end we agreed it should be on the list due to it not having any controversy at all.

The mons that were left out are Mew, Lugia, Shaymin-S, all Deoxys formes, and Wobbuffet. There has been controversy around these mons since the start of this thread, so its a good idea to see how they fare and then make an educated assumption on their tiering.

Of course this list isnt final, it was just made by me and other IRC users considering the "mentality" I outlined above, which means a lot of people missed a say on this. Please, if you feel like theres something wrong, you should post it!

 

[gengod]

A pretty interesting case is Darkrai, whom ive been asking for feedback a good amount of times but there wasnt any answer. For some reason Darkrai kept being out of the banlist, although there hasnt been any controversy regarding if its broken or not, which seems quite weird if youre going to remove it from the banlist. In fact, the first time I asked about Darkrai, people said "its controversial", to which I answered "why", considering there had been 0 arguments as to why Darkrai shouldnt be on the list. In the end we agreed it should be on the list due to it not having any controversy at all.

We actually asked about Darkrai on irc and there was no controversy about it. Everyone agreed that especially with how the new sleep mechanic is in combination with Darkrai's stats and movepool, Darkrai should definitely be initially banned.

The mons that were left out are Mew, Lugia, Shaymin-S, all Deoxys formes, and Wobbuffet. There has been controversy around these mons since the start of this thread, so its a good idea to see how they fare and then make an educated assumption on their tiering.

You say that there should be an intelligent reasoning for not wanting to allow these Pokemon. I'm still waiting to hear a good reason for actually wanting to see Mew + Deoxys in standard play. I've already posted as to why I think it's a horrible idea and haven't seen too much posted to have that simply disregarded.

 

[Fireburn]

Here's a post from locopoke, who, despite not having PR access, has had a pivotal role in the ban list creation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat locopoke
My proposed ban list is as follows:


Mewtwo
Mew
Ho-oh
Lugia
Wobbuffet
Groudon
Kyogre
Rayquaza
Deoxys-S
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Giratina-O
Darkrai
Arceus
Reshiram
Zekrom

After thinking about it, I'm not all too satisfied with Rising_Dusk's most recent list, despite having helped him make it on IRC. I don't like the fact that the no-ban list supporters have practically whithered our ban list down to nothing. This is similar to Rising_Dusk's original list (as seen in Maniac's post), except that this bans Lugia and Wobbuffet.

People are claiming that Lugia won't be as good of a wall in Gen 5 as it was in Gen 4, I'm not buying it though. As Jabba stated in a previous post, we all thought Blissey wasn't going to wall things going into Gen 4 but that clearly wasn't the case. As someone who has played a good amount of Gen 5 on Pokemon-Online, I can definitely say that there are still many Pokemon that Lugia absolutely shuts down. While PO might not be complete, enough of Gen 5 is implemented to see what a possible metagame might be like, and it's not nearly as offensive as people are claiming it is. This also applies to Wobbuffet. Despite the Pokemon being somewhat more powerful than they were in Gen 4, Wobbuffet is still stupidly good to the point where it makes playing the game not fun. It takes absolutely no skill or prediction to use and grants free kills. This might also be the case with Shanderaa, but it is definitely to a lesser extent. Shanderaa forces most players to equip their support Pokemon with Shed Shell and almost all sweepers completely man handle Shanderaa to a point where in most battles it's hardly even useful. This isn't the case with Wobbuffet. Not only that, but there hasn't been an official B/W metagame so it's not right for us to ban any 5th Gen Pokemon other than the box legends. I honestly don't think anybody is going to switch to our side because we have Wobbuffet unbanned, same goes for Lugia. As for Ho-oh being banned, the reasons on the last page of this thread for unbanning it are illogical. Bologo himself even admitted to forgetting that Ho-oh learned Brave Bird. Ho-oh is a top threat even in Gen 4 Ubers, from the experience I've had so far with B/W I don't see how it will be any different this gen, if not even worse. We shouldn't let the opinions of people effect us if those people aren't going to be voting for our ban list anyway. I feel that the ban list I've presented is the perfect balance between Rising_Dusk's original ban list and his minimalist one.


I personally think this ban list is one of the better ones in the thread.

I agree with this ban list as well, locopoke's reasoning is sound and all of the obviously broken Pokemon are covered. I think Deoxys-S could be dropped but there hasn't been a reasonable argument for it I've seen and I don't have time to make one right now, although if you guys want it dropped just because of controversy then that's fine.

 

[Firestorm]

I think it's pretty obvious that Wobbuffet is a controversial ban considering how much it's being discussed. There's no way it should be on an initial banlist.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

And will Soul Dew be allowed initially or should we impliment a Soul Dew clause (considering its even in the game)?

I'd really like to emphasize this point, and mainly ask: since Items cannot be traded from Generation 4 to Generation 5, does Soul Dew exist? Does the Griseous Orb exist? How about the Glacidea Flower? How do we know that these item-based factors are even an issue? I would assume that use of unreleased and/or non-existent items would most definitely be banned simply on the grounds that "they don't exist."

 

[lati0s]

I'm not sure about the others but I heard that griseous orb was confirmed

 

[Firestorm]

I'd really like to emphasize this point, and mainly ask: since Items cannot be traded from Generation 4 to Generation 5, does Soul Dew exist? Does the Griseous Orb exist? How about the Glacidea Flower? How do we know that these item-based factors are even an issue? I would assume that use of unreleased and/or non-existent items would most definitely be banned simply on the grounds that "they don't exist."

Not the best source, but I saw a post in the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread saying that the only items that haven't been discovered are Soul Dew and Glacidea Flower.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Thanks to the people that PMed me.

Griseous, Lustrous, and Adamant Orbs are given at the end of the game, and Glacidea flower is given by a lady in a Pokemon Center if you have a Shaymin in your party.

Still not sure about Soul Dew, would like information on this ASAP.

 

[Hipmonlee]

One thing that may makes Deoxys + Mew not as broken in OU play is Dragon Tail (effectively an untauntable Roar, that fails against substitutes).

[edit] - Also Borutorosu and perhaps some of those other pokes can use Taunt with +1 priority thanks to mischievous heart.

Have a nice day.

 

[gengod]

I was aware of those moves and abilities when I made the statement. I still think it makes for a pretty unhealthy metagame.

 

[Hipmonlee]

The reason you gave was Mew is near impossible to stop as a Baton Passer. I dont think that is true in light of these two moves.

I still think Mew makes for an unhealthy metagame also, but I dont know this for certain so I support testing it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's not that it's unstoppable, it's that you have to be carrying specific stuff in order to be able to stop it, which is a problem. You basically either have to have a Dragon Tail user or a Mischievous Heart Taunt/Encore user, otherwise it's still going to be nearly impossible to handle. Nothing is flatly impossible to deal with, but it's how well the "rest of the metagame" does against it that's the problem. When dealing with it is an all or nothing proposition and either you have the perfect counter or you have no chance, that's when things get iffy.

 

[Yagami Light]

Considering that we do not know just how popular Dragon Tail / Mischievous Heart users are going to be in the Gen V metagame and we don't know how well Mew stacks up against (what I presume to be) stronger leads then I see no reason as to why we can't give it a test. If the metagame becomes unhealthy, then get rid of it. Isn't that the whole idea behind testing borderline Pokemon in the first place?

 

[gengod]

Considering that we do not know just how popular Dragon Tail / Mischievous Heart users are going to be in the Gen V metagame and we don't know how well Mew stacks up against (what I presume to be) stronger leads then I see no reason as to why we can't give it a test. If the metagame becomes unhealthy, then get rid of it. Isn't that the whole idea behind testing borderline Pokemon in the first place?

There are only 3 Pokemon that can use Mischievous Heart competitively. Borutorosu, Torunerosu and Erufuun. So, thats already limiting your team tremendously if you take that route. As for Dragon Tail it's pretty similar. There are only a few competitively viable Pokemon that actually learn the move so it honestly doesn't leave for that much options.

And as SDS previously stated you are going to essentially need a perfect counter for Mew a given time in any battle or it becomes ridiculously easy to win with it.

As for how Mew stacks up against leads I'm not sure as to how much that matters as Baton Pass Mews never lead in the first place.

 

[cim]

That I'm "anti-ban" aside, I'm not really buying "ridiculously easy to win with" in the case of Mew. We have SD passers nearly as good as Mew. Take Gliscor: Barely slower, got some bulk to him, an offensive threat, fast Taunt, yet he doesn't destroy any metagames with SD or Agility passing. Granted, we don't have NP passers quite up there (though Togekiss is really only missing Taunt to be nearly as effective") but still...

Of course Mew is going to be VERY good at it, but I don't get the idea that Baton Passing would be incredibly viable if only we had Pokemon to do it with. Basically, I think the question is open to enough debate that testing is in favor.

I don't see why anyone in this thread wants to ban anything that anyone argues about. All that would accomplish is the same thing that happened in Gen 4: Nebulous bans that we don't really know if they're supposed to be there or not. Banning something means we basically "can't" test it later, but not banning something at least means it sees the light of day, even if for like a month

 

[Elevator Music]

Arceus
Dialga
Groudon
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
-----
Giratina
Giratina-O
Ho-Oh
Reshiram
Zekrom
Darkrai

Posting to say this is the list I will support. I don't really care about the initial tiering of Deoxys, Mew, and Wobb, and I feel like this is a comfortable list to start with.