Generation 5 tiers, an initial list.

[Fireburn]

Ho-oh - While it did get Regeneration, Fire/Flying is still riddled with common weaknesses of Water, Rock, and Electric. While Sacred Fire is still a pain in the ass for many physical attackers, keep in mind that there are a lot of new Fire-types in this game, and many which have gotten improved. Ie. Blaziken, Urgamoth, Rotom-H, Hihidaruma, Heatran, and of course Shanderaa. Firing off Sacred Fire may not be the safest thing to do anymore. In addition, due to Politoed and his Rain buddies, Ho-oh will not always be at an advantage, and may actually get his ass handed to him by the Swift Swimmers.

None of those Fire-types can switch-in on a Sacred Fire after SR. Also, Sacred Fire is not Ho-Oh's only attack, it also gets STAB Brave Bird and EQ both of which OHKO everything mentioned on that list. (Except maybe Rotom-H, but its slower than Ho-Oh and its not as bulky as you'd think...it's frailer than Darkrai, who was considered to be frail by Gen 4 Uber standards, and it can't even OHKO Ho-Oh lol) None of those Pokemon even begin to match up to how much bulk Ho-Oh has either, especially most Electric- and Water-type attacks don't even come close to OHKOing thanks to Ho-Oh's absurd special defensiveness. Ho-Oh isn't just a wall, it's a tank that hits like a train and can check a lot of special attackers. Ho-Oh, unlike most other Fire-types, has no safe switch in at all. Also, Ho-Oh also got this new little toy called Nitro Charge that actually allows him to sweep and be even more of an offensive threat than last generation. Factoring in all of this, I don't see how Ho-Oh can even be considered for unbanning into OU at all.

However, the rest of the stuff you mentioned I can see being a bit controversial, but for the most part I think the ban list Rising Dusk outlined is the way to go. I don't see why we would unban stuff that we pretty much know is clearly broken (hi Arceus).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I'd like to note that if enough people feel that Pokemon like Lugia are indeed controversial, we're not against removing them from the banlist. We will always tend towards the shorter banlist simply because things can be banned later and the entire point of the banlist is to save us time in the "obvious" cases. If someone is controversial enough and can go either way, then it is definitely not obvious enough to be auto-banned. That said, don't argue somehow that Mewtwo or whatever is not obviously broken. It is, no matter how much theorymon you lay down.

Pokemon that, after further IRC discussion, are controversial enough that if they receive enough support, we will remove them from the banlist:

Lugia
Deoxys
Deoxys-a
​

Ho-Oh is a monster, and even things that resist Fire cannot come in on his attacks and take him out. Bar the obvious Ubers that resist and outspeed Ho-Oh, there really exists nothing that can both switch in safely and threaten him without getting absolutely destroyed first. Add to this reliable recovery and the defensive stats to take super effective moves and still not be 2HKOed, and you have something that is so obviously Uber it's not even funny. The 4x Stealth Rock weakness is not enough to make up for this, because he can heal it off in a jiffy and outspeed whatever comes in to maul them. The fact that Ho-Oh also picked up such gems as Regeneration from Gen V is only making him that much more obviously Uber.

As for Giratina, I'm shocked that anyone even considers him possibly OU at all. There are a half dozen other spinblockers that are "obviously good enough for OU" and also lack instant recovery (bar Burunkeru). Giratina is leaps and bounds more defensive and offensively capable than any of them by a long shot. It packs important resistances to Water/Fire/Grass/Electric/Fighting/Normal/Bug that no other spinblocker can claim. Hell, even if you don't use it as a spinblocker, the thing is absurdly defensive. This thing, even for being mostly defensive, is still so respectably powerful that nothing can set up on it without risk of death or burn. There's no doubt in anyone's mind that I've spoken to that it is Uber.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I still back the banning of Wobbuffet for all of the reasons previously noted (doubly so because Custap Berry now exists). Shadow Tag + Encore is a combination that 100% guaranteed grinds the game down to a halt. There is no way to defend against it outside of sticking Shed Shell on everything marginally relevant, and despite the potentially "more offensive" nature of the metagame, Wobbuffet still has everything going for it that it did before.

This might be a silly one to bring up, but I'd also like to mention Wynaut. The item Evolution Stone is a fairly big deal considering that it allows Wynaut to actually buff up its defenses to respectable levels, making it still worse than Wobbuffet at taking hits, but not significantly so enough that it's ineffective at doing its job. It may not have access to Leftovers or Custap Berry, but it still works almost identically to Wobbuffet.

 

[Hipmonlee]

If you are confident that these Pokemon would be banned why even bother testing them in the first place? Just to say we did?

It would save us the effort of having this discussion.

To my understanding Ho-oh does not have regeneration yet. It shouldnt have any bearing on this discussion.

And burnt Scarftar still OHKOs it with Stone Edge. And the obvious ubers that outspeed and resist sacred fire like Latios?

Yeah it's good.. We still should test it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Bologo]

As for Giratina, I'm shocked that anyone even considers him possibly OU at all. There are a half dozen other spinblockers that are "obviously good enough for OU" and also lack instant recovery (bar Burunkeru). Giratina is leaps and bounds more defensive and offensively capable than any of them by a long shot. It packs important resistances to Water/Fire/Grass/Electric/Fighting/Normal/Bug that no other spinblocker can claim. Hell, even if you don't use it as a spinblocker, the thing is absurdly defensive. This thing, even for being mostly defensive, is still so respectably powerful that nothing can set up on it without risk of death or burn. There's no doubt in anyone's mind that I've spoken to that it is Uber.

First of all, we don't know if anything is "obviously good enough for OU" yet. In DPP, we all though Heracross was "obviously good enough for OU", and same thing with Rhyperior, Porygon-Z, Cresselia, etc, etc. And now look where they are.

Secondly, why does it matter that he's better than the other spinblockers? How does this somehow make him uber, especially without any testing whatsoever? Last time I checked, in order to fit the defensive characteristic, a pokemon had to be able to wall and stall a majority of the metagame. How can Giratina do this when:

a) it doesn't have reliable recovery to come in several times (which is basically required for walling and stalling), [in fact, it's the only Gen 4 Defensively-oriented Uber, besides Wobbuffet, which doesn't have reliable recovery]
b) it's weak to Dragon, which is an even worse weakness to have in this gen compared to the last one, since Draco Meteors are going to be flying everywhere, and there's going to be a lot of STAB Outrages too
c) it's weak to Ice, which is also going to be everywhere to take out the Dragons, not to mention that a lot of Swift Swimmers will be carrying Ice Beam to complement their movesets (or Dragon, in Kingdra's case)
d) weak to Dark, which people will be running a lot of considering the 3 (4 if you count Wynaut) Shadow Taggers are weak to it, and with Darkrai and Tyranitar running around, will be a pain to deal with, even if it can burn Tyranitar
e) weak to Ghost, which is bad considering how popular Gengar and Shanderaa are expected to be
f) everything just generally hits harder, many having offensive stats that used to be reserved for uber pokemon

Lastly, concerning the point about him being better than other Spinblockers, I don't actually think this is correct. The other Spinblockers will still be used a lot IMO. Burunkeru still has a lot of resistances and 3 possible immunities, and as you said, he's the only one with reliable recovery. Gengar can generally just hit really hard, and with the Substitute set, he can beat other spinblockers too as well as stuff like Doryuuzu and Forretress which look to be common Spinners. Shanderaa has Shadow Tag which can guarantee that he beats whatever Spinner comes out. Stoned Dusclops is a tank who can not only do lots of damage with Pain Split due to 40 base HP (and recover with it), but also take hits from the hardest hitters out there, and like Giratina, can burn them.

Giratina isn't necessarily better than those other Spinblockers, because they all have their points over him; not that it really matters of course, since being better than another pokemon isn't grounds for uber status.

 

[Philip7086]

Though I think an initial banlist is not the way to go, I'm glad you guys finally agreed to take a logical approach to coming up with a list, rather than just some arbitrary BST restriction. I'll still be voting for no banlist, but at least this is a step in the right direction if a banlist is determined to be what the community wants.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I am definitely not in the mood to argue my points I just wanted to get my opinion out there and if these mons become even more controversial then I'll throw in some heavy reasoning.

The only problem I have with Rising Dusk's tiering list is that I also think that Wobbuffet should be on it. Someone else could probably explain why better than me.

No way in hell should Lugia, Deoxys and Deoxys-A be removed from the initial banlist. The arguments against Lugia remind me of the arguments prior to dp about how Blissey wouldn't be good at walling anything anymore. It'll be as good as ever.

I'd definitely say leave deoxys a and normal on the list their combination of speed and attacking stats is still pretty much unmatched.

Bologo most of your points are just based on theorymon that isn't even close to true in practice (you even make points about dpp that aren't true which kind of hurts your argument...)

 

[Bologo]

Also, just one more thing.

Pokemon that, after further IRC discussion, are controversial enough that if they receive enough support, we will remove them from the banlist:Lugia
Deoxys
Deoxys-a

If we're really going to do this banlist thing, then any pokemon that has even the smallest amount of controversy should be removed from the banlist. The burden of proof is on the people who want the ban, and otherwise, the pokemon should be unbanned by default. If we insta-ban a pokemon with any kind of controversy, then we have an insta-problem with the banlist, because then there's a very good possibility that the list is inaccurate. I have a feeling that's how the community would feel too, seeing as over half the people here don't even want to start with a banlist, rather than an inaccurate one.

EDIT: While I do admit that Ho-oh may not have been the best choice to bring up earlier, since I admittedly did forget about stuff like Brave Bird, I still stand by everything else I said about the other pokemon.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Also, just one more thing.



If we're really going to do this banlist thing, then any pokemon that has even the smallest amount of controversy should be removed from the banlist. The burden of proof is on the people who want the ban, and otherwise, the pokemon should be unbanned by default. If we insta-ban a pokemon with any kind of controversy, then we have an insta-problem with the banlist, because then there's a very good possibility that the list is inaccurate. I have a feeling that's how the community would feel too, seeing as over half the people here don't even want to start with a banlist, rather than an inaccurate one.

I agree. The smallest amount of well reasoned controversy. ie someone trying to call controversy to a Pokemon let's just call it "Ho-oh" that show they clearly don't understand the Pokemon at all and whose reasons for calling it controversial hold no weight under the scrutiny and reasoning of other users should not have any weight as to the final decision.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

After looking into this more with other people who have been working with me on the proposed list since the beginning, we agree that Wobbuffet should be added back to the list. Wobbuffet is a menace, and the combination of immense bulk with Shadow Tag and Encore completely nullifies skill in any battle against him. You literally lose all control over the match at that point. This is made even worse by the presence of Custap Berry.

I also personally feel that we should keep Deo-A and Deo banned, but that's up for debate by the users.

The arguments against Lugia remind me of the arguments prior to dp about how Blissey wouldn't be good at walling anything anymore. It'll be as good as ever.

I personally agree with this, and feel that not banning it is a bit naive. I was running some calculations against new Pokemon and Lugia still walls a serious chunk of the metagame hard. But I want to hear what some other people think before we get too far into it one way or the other.

The tentative current list is:

Arceus
Deoxys
Deoxys-a
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-o
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Wobbuffet
Zekrom

 

[Elevator Music]

I have no problems with that list. I guess I'm on the fence with Lugia, but that's it. EDIT- For exactly the reason SDS posted

Mew was talked about for a long time on IRC, but honestly I'd just rather leave it off the list. BP is probably broken in a metagame with Deo-s, but its not as centralizing as Kyogre and Arceus so I'm ok with it being tested. It doesn't nullify the metagame the way they do. Perhaps knowing whats coming (aka being able to see teams before you battle them) will help make it less broken, along with all the other changes.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Something that someone notably brought up about Lugia is that if it doesn't have to worry about taking huge Groudon Stone Edges, Lugia can instead exercise its excellent 110 Speed and amazing defenses for a nearly indestructible Calm Mind set that puts Suicune to shame. It's still got that STAB Aeroblast, and this time around it also happens to have access to Psycho Shock, making it a bitch and a half to attempt to wall, let alone kill.

Between its indisputably incredible defensive prowess and its potential for offensive power, I don't think there's a doubt that Lugia is in the same boat as the other BST 670s.

 

[reyscarface]

I agree with that list, although theres still one im on the fence about which is Darkrai, id like to hear (read?) opinions of other people about it.

 

[Philip7086]

Hah, what really gets me is that you guys would even put controversial Pokemon like Lugia on the initial banlist without any real knowledge, despite users who actually played 5th gen on PO testifying that Lugia is underwhelming. How can we even justify putting something that users can't agree about on the banlist? Like, no offense SDS, but your post makes it fairly obvious that you're not experienced in Ubers. Since when has Lugia even cared about Groudon's Stone Edge? Nobody switches Groudon into any version of Lugia, because the Great Wall set walls every version and Ice Beams it to death, and the offensive set nearly OHKOs offensive Groudon after a Calm Mind (only offensive Groudons can OHKO back). Trust me when I say that Groudon is not the reason preventing people from using offensive Lugia. Instead, the actual "counters" to offensive Lugia are generally OU Pokemon, like Tyranitar, Blissey, Bronzong, and Skarmory. It just boggles my mind that people would jump so quickly to ban something they have no experience dealing with (this is why I'm part of the "no initial bans" group, because for the most part, NONE of us have experience to base our judgments off of). How can anyone make the claim that a defensive Pokemon is absolutely Uber in a brand new metagame where so many ridiculously powerful Pokemon are freshly introduced?

I really think you banlist supporters should re-evaluate the way you're making your banlist. The whole point of starting with a banlist is to save time, right? So why start off banning controversial Pokemon, when we'll probably end up having to bring them down later on to test them anyways? That's going to waste even more of our time if anything, so please, if you're making a banlist, at least leave the controversial Pokemon out. If a good number of people don't agree, maybe it shouldn't be banned before we can actually test it! I don't know, makes sense to me.

Edit: I just wanted to clarify that I don't actually believe Lugia is 100% OU in gen 5. I'm just trying to highlight the fact that we just don't know.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm in support of Dusk's updated list. Wynaut with Pre-vo Stone is annoying, but unlike Wobbs it only has the mediocre 95 Base HP. That's enough to KO one opponent locked into attack it, but it won't allow it to pull the kind of shenanigans Wobbufett does (more than once a battle, anyway). We can get to stuff like Shadow Tag Shanderaa when it's actually legally available.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I would have issues with Lugia, because its defensive capabilities are on a whole different level from the initial defensive threshold of OU. 100 / 100 / 100 was one of the bulkiest defensive spreads you could find in OU, and Lugia makes 100 / 100 / 100 defenses look like Pikachu.

. . . then you look at the offensive pokemon that GF has made of the "standard" mold. There are so many pokemon, legendary, pseudo legendary, or just plain 530 or less that have offensive stats over 130 or even 140. It is even possible that we will see pokemon with less than 600 BST outclass even the likes of Salamence in offensive prowess. Testing the bulk of Lugia and Deoxys-D in the "new OU" is probably not unfounded.

 

[Firestorm]

Hah, what really gets me is that you guys would even put controversial Pokemon like Lugia on the initial banlist without any real knowledge, despite users who actually played 5th gen on PO testifying that Lugia is underwhelming. How can we even justify putting something that users can't agree about on the banlist? Like, no offense SDS, but your post makes it fairly obvious that you're not experienced in Ubers. Since when has Lugia even cared about Groudon's Stone Edge? Nobody switches Groudon into any version of Lugia, because the Great Wall set walls every version and Ice Beams it to death, and the offensive set nearly OHKOs offensive Groudon after a Calm Mind (only offensive Groudons can OHKO back). Trust me when I say that Groudon is not the reason preventing people from using offensive Lugia. Instead, the actual "counters" to offensive Lugia are generally OU Pokemon, like Tyranitar, Blissey, Bronzong, and Skarmory. It just boggles my mind that people would jump so quickly to ban something they have no experience dealing with (this is why I'm part of the "no initial bans" group, because for the most part, NONE of us have experience to base our judgments off of). How can anyone make the claim that a defensive Pokemon is absolutely Uber in a brand new metagame where so many ridiculously powerful Pokemon are freshly introduced?

I really think you banlist supporters should re-evaluate the way you're making your banlist. The whole point of starting with a banlist is to save time, right? So why start off banning controversial Pokemon, when we'll probably end up having to bring them down later on to test them anyways? That's going to waste even more of our time if anything, so please, if you're making a banlist, at least leave the controversial Pokemon out. If a good number of people don't agree, maybe it shouldn't be banned before we can actually test it! I don't know, makes sense to me.

Edit: I just wanted to clarify that I don't actually believe Lugia is 100% OU in gen 5. I'm just trying to highlight the fact that we just don't know.

I'd like to emphasize this post as that's how I feel as well. If there's any Pokemon that has any arguments for it at all, it should not be on that initial list. You're trying to eliminate what you feel is 100% certain to be banned.

Jabba called out Bologo on theorymonning why they shouldn't be on the initial banlist. That's seems to be the opposite way we should be thinking. Theorymonning why something should be on the banlist is what we're trying to avoid here. If there's any sort of argument for why a Pokemon might not be banned, put them in the pool.

Remember, the English release of these games is most likely in late March or early April 2011. That's 6 months away. Plenty of time for a simulator and testing. We aren't in a huge rush here.

I forsee there being contention around Pokemon like Lugia and Wobbuffet (especially once the Chandelier is released) so what is the harm in leaving it off the initial banlist?

 

[capefeather]

I don't know if this post will be seen as on-topic on this thread, but I didn't want to ramble on #insidescoop about it and this seemed to be the best thread to put this so that I could reach as many relevant people as I could. I also considered waiting for the actual poll thread to come up, but I decided that I wanted to get this off my chest now, before I forget and before people start impulse voting on judgment day.

I just want to ask people sincerely to see this issue for what it really is. That is, whether we have an initial banlist or not is entirely based on opinion, what the community wants. This is not about Pokémon who are allegedly "obviously Uber", something that even no-banlist people seem not to understand. This is also not about one side knowing better than another, or about the results of testing on the PO gen 5 server. I know (or, at least, I want to know) that most of you actually do understand this, and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, but after seeing some people resort to personal attacks, I knew I just had to post this, just so that all this stupid animosity surrounding this controversy would stop.

To be blunt, by talking about "obviously Uber" Pokémon you're already misunderstanding the issue. I'll go as far as to say that some of you simply have too much pride within yourselves to admit that there's clearly no consensus on the obvious course of action. I am honestly appalled that badged users (from both sides, really) would even resort to personal attacks and malicious gossip because people disagree with what they consider obvious. I am no Leonardo da Vinci or Jesus, but I definitely do not deserve that, nor do any other people leaning toward no bans. I would like to believe that a basic sense of mutual respect as human beings is considered a virtue on Smogon.

Personally, I make every effort to make sure that I speak on the implication premises themselves, not the value judgment premise. For example, I would say, "If removing Kyogre will improve the metagame, then it will be banned, period." I would completely avoid stating whether Kyogre is Uber or not, no matter how "obvious" the answer is or what I personally think of it, because it is completely and utterly irrelevant. I feel that it is extremely important to understand this because not understanding this has been the source of much of the clouding up of the issue.

I'm not really against the existence of this thread or its goals at all. If the initial banlist ends up winning the favour of The Policy Review - provided the permission updating thread gives the poll a fair, unbiased voting pool - I have no problem whatsoever with accepting that. This is exactly why I want to implore all of you to ask yourself, REALLY ask yourself, what you really want Generation V to be, as well as what you might want but would be willing to sacrifice for the bottom line of what you really want. For example, I have no problem with a Kyogre-centric metagame if it's "balanced", but that's just my view and it's perfectly fine not to want a Kyogre-centric metagame at all. I would also like for you to make sure that what you want is really what YOU want - not what your friends want, not what the "powerful" people want, not what you think the voting pool wants, not what Nintendo wants, not what Game Freak wants - what YOU want. This is not the time for spirals of silence. This is the time to grow a pair and make up your own mind. If the initial banlist side wins, I want it to be a victory for the group, not for the groupthink. I say this because resorting to personal attacks is often an indication of an opinion not being entirely of your own thinking.

 

[the_artic_one]

I think we should leave Wobbuffet off the initial list, being able to see teams in advance makes him quite a bit easier to deal with as you know he's coming. Also, the guaranteed setup he provides means a lot less in a metagame where scarf ditto can revenge no matter how much setup you get.

In addition, he was a suspect in gen IV and as I said before I don't think anything we ever even considered being not uber at one point can be said to be obviously uber.

 

[Bologo]

I agree with Phil and Firestorm. We don't actually know if something would be uber in BW, and I personally think everyone should just be thrown together without a banlist at first. But, since there is a possibility that it may not work out that way, the initial banlist, if there is one, need to have as few bans as possible. This is why I said that pokemon that are being seen as controversial, such as Lugia, Deoxys-A, and Deoxys-N need to just be removed from the banlist, especially if they got some controversy from people in IRC. I'm not sure if people realize this, but keeping them in the banlist will hurt more than it helps.

If they stay in the banlist and then people decide later that they want to test them, from what I saw in 4th Gen OU testing, and being a tiering contributor myself, people WILL vote them uber, no matter how tame they may be in the metagame. The reason being, of course, that the metagame will change when new top-tier threats are introduced, and since people seem to dislike change, or are too lazy to adapt to new threats since it brings them out of their comfort zone, they want to get rid of it, despite what reasoning they may use (even though that reasoning usually involved sticking the 'support characteristic' card onto the pokemon when they couldn't think of anything else).

Basically, related to what I said above - when a pokemon gets banned, it's basically banned forever in that Gen. Nothing good can come from theorybanning a controversial pokemon.

I'd say just remove Lugia, Deoxys-N, and Deoxys-A from the banlist since they've clearly gotten some controversy on IRC, and if someone wants to prove that they should be on the banlist, then they can wait until we start testing them and have gotten some actual experience playing with them to clear some of the controversial things up. I know that sounds kind of harsh for the people who really want a big initial banlist, but if you really want to appeal an initial banlist to all the people playing out there, I can assure you that wrongful theorybanning will be met with a lot of heat.

--

On another note, I've noticed that people like to simply look at Deoxys-N and Deoxys-A and are immediately intimidated by the offensive stats, as shown by some people in this thread (though if there was controversy, I'm guessing that not everyone thinks this way). Therefore, I'll elaborate a bit more on my argument for them.

First of all, here are some possible Checks/Counters to Deoxys-A in the BW metagame:

Metagross - Comes in on anything but HP Fire, and kills easily with Bullet Punch, and if he does force a switch, he can use Agility and possibly sweep the opponent's team.

Scizor - A Specially Defensive Scizor can come in on anything but HP Fire and essentially force Deoxys-A out since it can effortlessly KO with Bullet Punch.

Spiritomb - With a Specially Defensive spread, Spiritomb can come in on every single attack and Pursuit it, OHKOing it even if it doesn't switch and even with 0 Atk EVs.

Jirachi - Takes everything pretty well besides HP Fire (though it can't OHKO); ScarfRachi is faster than Deoxys-A, and can OHKO with Iron Head or U-turn.

Bronzong - Doesn't particularly like HP Fire (unless Heatproof), but can come in on most other attacks and either set up a Trick Room sweep or just straight up kill with Gyro Ball.

Shubargo - Can come in on anything but HP Fire thanks to its bulkiness, and it can easily dispose of Deoxys-A, even having Pursuit available to it.

Nattorei - Hates HP Fire, but resists everything else excluding Ice Beam and kills effortlessly with Gyro Ball/Power Whip.

Forretress - Forretress, who occasionally carries Occa Berry to set up hazards easier, can come in on predicted Ice Beams or Shadow Balls, and Psychics, and can kill with Payback or Gyro Ball.

Stoned Dusclops - If Dusclops has a Specially Defensive spread, it can come in on anything, including Shadow Ball, for less than 50%, and use pretty much any Ghost move on Deoxys-A to kill it.


While it does seem that Deoxys-A can get rid of many of these pokemon with HP Fire, it won't always be that reliable of a move in this weather-based game. If Politoed came out and set up Rain, Deoxys-A is in a lot of trouble against Bug-types or Steel types that aren't weak to Fighting. In addition, if he runs HP Fire, that means that one slot of his coverage is gone, which shows that he has 4 moveslot syndrome, which is bad for a pokemon like Deoxys-A:

Without Ice Beam, Dragons can come in on a revenge-kill and set up.
Without Thunderbolt, Gyarados and a lot of other Water types will come in and kill him.

Without Superpower, Blissey, and a Stoned Chansey will come in and easily wall him. Zuruzurukin can also come in and cause Deoxys-A a lot of problems. Tyranitar will enjoy a hearty meal as well.

Without Shadow Ball, Ghost-types as well as Psychics like Cresselia or Wobbuffet can come in easily and wall him all day or kill him.

Without Psychic (I imagine Psychic would be more common in OU), he has no good STAB attack to fall back on if his coverage fails him.

Without Sub, he's priority food.

There's also the checks, which will often carry Choice Scarf or be Swift Swimmers/Chlorophyllers/Sand Throwers, or have a strong Priority move on them. Unfortunately, while 150 base Speed has historically been amazing, thanks to Choice Scarf, you only need at least 85 base Speed to outspeed now. With all of the Dragon Dancing/Shell Breaking/Butterfly Dancing/Agility/Rock Polish, etc, that's going to be happening, you can bet that those Scarfers are going to be a lot faster than 85 base Speed (or Scarf Ditto), so Deoxys-A will be easily revenged.

Remember that even though Deoxys-A does hit hard, it basically requires one of your own pokemon to die before it can actually come out, because unfortunately, this guy bruises like a peach, and therefore won't ever be switching in on anything unless it's through a U-turn, which is a mindgame in itself, since the opponent can do the same thing to scout for Deoxys-A if they think they can bring it on a support move or something.

I hope people realize that just because Deoxys-N/A have really high offensive stats, it doesn't automatically make them uber, because 5th gen is looking to be our most offensive gen yet (yes I know that's what people said last gen too), meaning that revenge-killing will be a lot more emphasized, and people will probably be worrying more about the setup sweepers. Who knows? Maybe Deoxys-A/N will actually be quite healthy to the metagame since they'll be able to stop SD Garchomp, DD Gyarados, and threats like that from killing your team (though I personally think Deoxys-s would do a better job at killing off DDers).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Not super relevant, but might I remind you that Deoxys-A now has Psycho Shock to replace Psychic? Still gives him STAB, still lets him bitch-slap Blissey (and stoned chansey) sideways. The only thing Superpower gives him coverage on is Tyranitar.

 

[Chou Toshio]

One thing that folks should also remember about Ubers who have non-Uber checks, it's not just about the checks, but also about relative power.

In 4th Gen OU, just because all the enemy's dedicated Gyarados counters/checks died, that does not necessarily mean that Gyarados is going to sweep. If Gyarados was weakened by hit attempt to setup/finishing counters, he can and will fall at times to the likes of Scizor, Metagross, Scarfrachi or Infernape. He can be finished off by Skarmory or Ice Beam Swampert. Even with previous suspects, just because Blissey fell or the enemy was ran out of Ice attacks, that did not mean Latias or Salamence was ending the game automatically.

On the other hand, if you no longer have a Tyranitar or Weavile, can you still kill Lugia? If you no longer have a priority move or one of the pokes on the above list, can you still stop Deoxys-A? This is also important to consider when deciding on a ban.

Also, how much efficiency/power is lost by a pokemon in order to become a check (let's just say massive special defensive investment on Tyranitar, Scizor or Blissey, were not optimal in 4th Gen OU).

That said, perhaps such distinctions/concerns are probably left to deal with after the initial list just because we want to be as liberal with the initial list as possible.

 

[Bologo]

Not super relevant, but might I remind you that Deoxys-A now has Psycho Shock to replace Psychic? Still gives him STAB, still lets him bitch-slap Blissey (and stoned chansey) sideways. The only thing Superpower gives him coverage on is Tyranitar.

I thought about that before, but I still came to the conclusion that Deoxys-A needs Superpower. Stoned Chansey isn't ever even 2HKOed by a 252 SpA LO Psycho Shock thanks to the much larger physical defense than Blissey (takes hits better than 252 HP/252 Def Relaxed Swampert), and is basically a full-stop to the rest of its special attacks since it still has instant recovery despite losing Leftovers. Stoned Porygon2, which is inevitably going to be pretty popular, is also a full-stop without Superpower, since it's barely taking anything from Psycho Shock, though admittedly, even Superpower isn't always going to be 2HKOing due to the Attack drop after each use, while Porygon2 can just Recover off the hit.

Also, as you mentioned, without Superpower, Tyranitar is basically a full-stop as well, since there's really nothing that Deoxys-A can do to it with the SpD raise from Sandstorm. He's also in trouble against any sort of Defensive Heatran since the only other thing he can do to Heatran is Thunder, which won't always be reliable with the large amount of weather going around (and it isn't a guaranteed 2HKO either). A bulky spread for Kyuremu will also cause a lot of problems if Deoxys-A doesn't have Superpower, since it resists Thunderbolt, and is neutral to the rest of Deoxys-A's attacks.

I dunno, I'd probably just take my chances with Superpower rather than waste a slot for Psycho Shock, which is basically only good against Blissey, and even then, if Blissey runs Protect, it still might be able to survive 2 hits. Not to mention that there are more pokemon that move from being checks to counters when he gets rid of Superpower. As far as I'm concerned, Deoxys-A needs to get clean OHKOs on its opponents, because if it doesn't it's not going to survive. Superpower is much more reliable than Psycho Shock for achieving this IMO.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

After much discussion and much revulsion on my own and others' parts, I have come up with what I think is the most realistic and minimalistic banlist that we can get. I have scraped off everything but the absolute most broken Pokemon that exist in the game, much to my dislike. This will at the very least create a bearable metagame at the start of BW without the most powerful of the powerful. The list is as follows:

Arceus
Dialga
Groudon
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza

This list is only 7 Pokemon long. We have removed both formes of Giratina, all Deoxys, Wobbuffet, both of the legendary birds, and both of the new cover legends for BW. Why? We evaluated what the most broken Pokemon were that they completely dominate and shift the metagame to revolve around their existence. While all of the Pokemon I removed are broken, in my honest opinion and the opinion of others, they are not nearly as broken as the 7 in this list. These 7 have the most expansive movepools, the best stat distributions, and some combination of the best abilities with the best typings.

This list, I hope, is a list of Pokemon that will not be debated by anyone. Some people may want other Pokemon added to the list, but nothing removed. No one can legitimately claim that full-on Arceus is not going to overwhelm the metagame, or Mewtwo, one of the few Pokemon that Arceus can't dominate, or the weather champions and the best and most versatile Dragon-type sweeper that exists, or the vast and almost infinite movepools and diversity of the space and time Pokemon.

It is with pleasure, yet a sense of regret, that I think that this list is our most realistic and valuable one we can possibly come up with. It will save us vast amounts of time in the development of our metagame, it will allow the metagame to settle in a way that fits with what everyone seems to want, and it will hopefully appease enough people who are on the border about the idea of a banlist altogether by showing that we don't want to overdo it. There were arguments for unbanning the Pokemon I unbanned, and in spite of the fact that we've briefly played the chaotic BW metagame and think more things are broken, we are erring on the side of unbanning anything controversial. This list is no longer controversial. These are the best and most centralizing Pokemon in the game. These are the absolute fewest bans that we can propose without completely nullifying our goals of saving time in the BW stage of Smogon's life.

Hopefully you agree.

 

[gengod]

Add Reshiram and Zekrom back and I can at least bear this list. I don't personally like it or this method but I'm not against it since as you said it does save quite a bit of time and I'd rather have this list than none at all.