Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[dw0914]

But prediction goes both ways. There is a lot more prediction in playing against Mega Gengar. I have a 50% HP Gliscor against my opponent's 1% Dugtrio. If I use Earthquake, my opponent gets a free switch to Mega Gengar and I lose my Gliscor, which may be my only mon that can stop my opponent's Lucario sweep. Or maybe you have a Rotom-W against said Dugtrio. You don't want it to die because otherwise your opponent sweeps with Talonflame. With prediction, the odds are stacked in favor of Mega Gengar even more.

I disagree. The odds in those situations are stacked in favor of the better predictor, particularly due to M-Gengar's susceptibility to Pursuit and then a priority attack to finish it later. One failed prediction can cost either player a key Pokémon; that isn't the type of situation we have seen in past quick bans.

 

[AOPSUser]

No, the odds are stacked in favor of the better predictor, particularly due to M-Gengar's susceptibility to Pursuit and then a priority attack to finish it later. One failed prediction can cost either player a key Pokémon; that isn't the type of situation we have seen in past quick bans.

I meant assuming both people are equally skilled.

Every good Pursuiter in OU, with the exception of very bulky Mega Scizor (as in 252/240 and the like), is 2HKOed by Mega Gengar, so if you predict them switching in on the Mega Evo, you Sub and either attack or switch. None of those Pursuits actually OHKO Mega Gengar if it stays in, assuming the mons in question run enough bulk to not get OHKOed.

The only priority user with Pursuit in OU is Scizor, which fails to OHKO Mega Gengar with a Banded Bullet Punch (and then you can tell by the damage) and gets mauled with Shadow Ball in return. You switch out of every other priority user.

If you can fodder a very low health mon, like the 1% Dugtrio I mentioned earlier, you can force your opponent into a stalemate--either switch to another mon to take an attack, or kill it and have Mega Gengar kill you and open up a sweep next turn. That takes zero prediction for the Mega Gengar user. Who cares if you get Pursuited afterwards, it's already done its job.

Post Pokebank with Perish Song is going to be even more effective at that, though I still prefer Sub+3 attacks.

 

[dw0914]

I meant assuming both people are equally skilled.

...


The only priority user with Pursuit in OU is Scizor, which fails to OHKO Mega Gengar with a Banded Bullet Punch (and then you can tell by the damage) and gets mauled with Shadow Ball in return. You switch out of every other priority user.

If you can fodder a very low health mon, like the 1% Dugtrio I mentioned earlier, you can force your opponent into a stalemate--either switch to another mon to take an attack, or kill it and have Mega Gengar kill you and open up a sweep next turn. That takes zero prediction for the Mega Gengar user. Who cares if you get Pursuited afterwards, it's already done its job.

Equally skilled players was the point of my previous reply - at some point each player needs to guess whether the other player is going to switch or stay in. The difficulty of toss-up prediction battles cannot be decided on paper for a quick ban. I agree that if no prediction was required, it would be an obvious choice.

Regarding the other situations you posed:

1) If M-Gengar predictably switches out of enemy priority users, that makes its team's actions easier to predict and thus easier to beat. If I bring in a Mamoswine to finish off a weakened M-Gengar, and I know you're going to switch, it's just a question of who makes the better prediction based on your team's remaining Pokémon. In that case I'd likely swap Mamoswine for something that can handle the majority of your remaining team fairly well, and leave your weakened M-Gengar a marked target for Mamoswine or another priority user later on. Either way, that's a prediction battle (see above).

2) I'm not sure I understand your reasoning in "who cares if you get Pursuited afterwards." I've read quite a few pro-ban postings wherein posters note that no good player will give up their M-Gengar until it outlives its usefulness. In my mind, those posters are correct, and taking a big chunk of Pursuit damage even once limits M-Gengar's utility drastically. If the only way that using M-Gengar takes "zero prediction" results in him likely getting Pursuited if he's against a good opponent, then that doesn't sound like a broken Pokémon. These are also finite battles with 6 Pokes per team; it's not like a 1-for-1 sacrifice is always a "win" for M-Gengar. As just one of many possible examples, if you're down a Poke or two against me, there are many situations where I'd happily let M-Gengar trap/kill one Poke if it means I get to cripple its lifebar with Pursuit and leave it for dead later on.

Additionally, I should note that arguments along the lines of "well it's just a matter of getting rid of 1 Pursuit user and then M-Gengar wins" hold no water because they assume the metagame won't adapt and include 2-3 threats to M-Gengar on each team. Please take note that I said "threats" here, as in Pokemon who fill other roles but can also threaten M-Gengar, not 2-3 Pokemon whose sole purpose is to deal with M-Gengar (only the latter would indicate brokenness). We can't know how that will shake out, and so a quick ban seems hasty.

 

[Skyblade12]

Equally skilled players was the point of my previous reply - at some point each player needs to guess whether the other player is going to switch or stay in. The difficulty of toss-up prediction battles cannot be decided on paper for a quick ban. I agree that if no prediction was required, it would be an obvious choice.

Regarding the other situations you posed:

1) If M-Gengar predictably switches out of enemy priority users, that makes its team's actions easier to predict and thus easier to beat. If I bring in a Mamoswine to finish off a weakened M-Gengar, and I know you're going to switch, it's just a question of who makes the better prediction based on your team's remaining Pokémon. In that case I'd likely swap Mamoswine for something that can handle the majority of your remaining team fairly well, and leave your weakened M-Gengar a marked target for Mamoswine or another priority user later on. Either way, that's a prediction battle (see above).

Except that you actually gain nothing from this. You both switch out, and Gengar has just as much health as it did when you switched in Mamoswine. Except that, now, the control of the situation has slipped out of your hands. If Mamoswine is your priority Mega-Gengar threat (or any Priority user, for that matter), then switching in on any other Pokémon is going to be a massive boost to the Gengar user, since you won't be able to switch out its target. You threaten Gengar and make it run, but you don't do anything to hurt its assassin potential, as you have no way to guarantee that it stays in against your threats to it, or keep it from sniping the targets it wants.

Also, you can't trade out Mamoswine, even if you predict Mega-Gengar fleeing, since Shadow Tag Prevents you from CHOOSING to switch.

2) I'm not sure I understand your reasoning in "who cares if you get Pursuited afterwards." I've read quite a few pro-ban postings wherein posters note that no good player will give up their M-Gengar until it outlives its usefulness. In my mind, those posters are correct, and taking a big chunk of Pursuit damage even once limits M-Gengar's utility drastically. If the only way that using M-Gengar takes "zero prediction" results in him likely getting Pursuited if he's against a good opponent, then that doesn't sound like a broken Pokémon. These are also finite battles with 6 Pokes per team; it's not like a 1-for-1 sacrifice is always a "win" for M-Gengar. As just one of many possible examples, if you're down a Poke or two against me, there are many situations where I'd happily let M-Gengar trap/kill one Poke if it means I get to cripple its lifebar with Pursuit and leave it for dead later on.

He's pointing out that if you pull in a Pursuit user after Mega-Gengar has already killed something, Mega-Gengar's job is done and it can faint happily, confident in the knowledge that it set up the sweep for the team. The only way to bring in a Pursuit user is on the first turn, or after Mega-Gengar has completed its tsk.

Additionally, I should note that arguments along the lines of "well it's just a matter of getting rid of 1 Pursuit user and then M-Gengar wins" hold no water because they assume the metagame won't adapt and include 2-3 threats to M-Gengar on each team. Please take note that I said "threats" here, as in Pokemon who fill other roles but can also threaten M-Gengar, not 2-3 Pokemon whose sole purpose is to deal with M-Gengar (only the latter would indicate brokenness). We can't know how that will shake out, and so a quick ban seems hasty.

Name these threats, please. The thread has very specifically detailed that very few Pokémon reliably threaten Mega-Gengar. And, only Pursuit users can really keep it from doing its job, and they aren't common enough in OU, unless they are being included just to stop Mega-Gengar, which is over-centralizing.

 

[Anthinus]

Regarding the other situations you posed:

1) If M-Gengar predictably switches out of enemy priority users, that makes its team's actions easier to predict and thus easier to beat. If I bring in a Mamoswine to finish off a weakened M-Gengar, and I know you're going to switch, it's just a question of who makes the better prediction based on your team's remaining Pokémon. In that case I'd likely swap Mamoswine for something that can handle the majority of your remaining team fairly well, and leave your weakened M-Gengar a marked target for Mamoswine or another priority user later on. Either way, that's a prediction battle (see above).

It looks like you want to double switch in front of M-Gengar (correct me if I missunderstood what you said) and that can't be done. You have to wait until M-Gengar switch out before you can do it. But if you scare M-Gengar back to his pokeball, you can take the oportunity to hit hard the incoming poke with things like Latios for example.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I dont think its broken, it is just a really good pokemon with a lot of utility. In this age of double hitting kengeskhans and ridiculously powerful mega lucario, you give up a lot to merely 1-1 an opponent or 2-1 an opponent while having something else take a potentially devestating hit when you could be sweeping with kenga or utilizing mega luc. It all comes at a cost. Gengar cant stop a sweep as easily as something like a mega bannette and any wall gengar traps could potentially lay down hazards while gengar kills it off. Something that mega absol would never allow. If mega gengar didnt have this restriction, I would be calling for an insta ban, but for now, I say give him a chance.

 

[dw0914]

Except that you actually gain nothing from this. You both switch out, and Gengar has just as much health as it did when you switched in Mamoswine. Except that, now, the control of the situation has slipped out of your hands. If Mamoswine is your priority Mega-Gengar threat (or any Priority user, for that matter), then switching in on any other Pokémon is going to be a massive boost to the Gengar user, since you won't be able to switch out its target. You threaten Gengar and make it run, but you don't do anything to hurt its assassin potential, as you have no way to guarantee that it stays in against your threats to it, or keep it from sniping the targets it wants.

Also, you can't trade out Mamoswine, even if you predict Mega-Gengar fleeing, since Shadow Tag Prevents you from CHOOSING to switch.

This assumes it has already mega-evolved, which I may have mistakenly implied by calling it "M-Gengar". You're correct that if it has already mega evolved, Mamoswine can't switch out, but if that's the case, then I'm going to be looking at your remaining Pokémon and thinking about which of Mamoswine's attacks can maim whatever replaces M-Gengar. That's still a prediction battle that, if done repeatedly, may wind up costing you serious damage on every one of your Pokémon aside from M-Gengar. As your opponent, I'm alright with forcing you to rely on M-Gengar for taking out mid/lategame walls, as damage output against bulk is definitely not its strong suit.

He's pointing out that if you pull in a Pursuit user after Mega-Gengar has already killed something, Mega-Gengar's job is done and it can faint happily, confident in the knowledge that it set up the sweep for the team. The only way to bring in a Pursuit user is on the first turn, or after Mega-Gengar has completed its tsk.

As I already pre-empted in my previous post, 1-for-1 isn't necessarily a win for M-Gengar. I'll reiterate: pro-ban players have argued that it "just" needs to take out one target and can then set up a sweep. This makes a faulty assumption about an unknown metagame that cannot be fleshed out without more thorough evaluation, which is essentially what this whole thread is debating, right?

Name these threats, please. The thread has very specifically detailed that very few Pokémon reliably threaten Mega-Gengar. And, only Pursuit users can really keep it from doing its job, and they aren't common enough in OU, unless they are being included just to stop Mega-Gengar, which is over-centralizing.

Absolutely not. I've already had a post dinged once for my own speculation into what will be OU and what won't, and I won't be baited into another round of that speculation by getting into a debate with you about whether the threats I propose are good enough to be OU in this generation. What you are requesting has been expressly stated as off-topic.

In advocating for a quick ban, the burden is on pro-ban posters to argue that (e.g.) only one strong Pursuit user could possibly exist on paper; otherwise we can only find out how the Gen 6 metagame shapes up through more thorough testing. If pro-ban posters cannot rule out all such Pokémon on paper - not just those who were OU in Gen 5 or those they subjectively think will be OU in Gen 6 - which is a difficult task in and of itself, then that is tantamount to admitting that we could all learn useful information from a suspect test. As far as I know, quick bans are only applicable in cases where suspect testing would be a "waste of time."

 

[Exeggutive]

I dont think its broken, it is just a really good pokemon with a lot of utility. In this age of double hitting kengeskhans and ridiculously powerful mega lucario, you give up a lot to merely 1-1 an opponent or 2-1 an opponent while having something else take a potentially devestating hit when you could be sweeping with kenga or utilizing mega luc. It all comes at a cost. Gengar cant stop a sweep as easily as something like a mega bannette and any wall gengar traps could potentially lay down hazards while gengar kills it off. Something that mega absol would never allow. If mega gengar didnt have this restriction, I would be calling for an insta ban, but for now, I say give him a chance.

I don't think you understand why gengarite is being suspected. His ability to completely shut down a large portion of the defenaive metagame with little risk and support is why it's being suspected. Not just because it hits hard. (Which it does additionally) so comparing it to sweepers is useless because they do totally different things. Gar is made to trap key threats (walls) so sweeping with a designated sweeper is easier and less of a risk.

 

[Skyblade12]

Pursuit has only a single purpose, to catch switching Pokémon. With the rise in popularity of moves like Volt Switch and U Turn, Pursuit becomes even less of a threat than it has been in the past, since it won't strike Volt-Turners. I don't think we're going to see a sudden rise in popularity of Pursuit this generation (though it's possible with Steel losing the resistance).

But lets have one of our experts pull up the hardest hitting Pursuit users (or all of those who can OHKO Mega-Gengar). I don't have the knowledge to run the calculations myself, but I think you'll find that very few of them are going to be Pokémon who can not only Pursuit Mega-Gengar to death, but also pose a threat to Mega-Gengar outside of Pursuit. Because Pursuit on its own is useless. You need Pursuit on a Pokémon who can threaten Mega-Gengar enough to make it flee, and you need to make sure it doesn't get a Substitute up first (which is a fairly safe bet if they expect you to switch to a Pursuit Pokémon during the first turn switch time).

 

[RibVein]

From what I can tell, that's the important point. Every argument is situational. Gengar is a situational Pokémon. The critical thing is, the Mega-Gengar user gets to decide the situation thanks to Shadow Tag, which means that the Mega Gengar can easily be set up to take advantage of that specific situation.

I'm a new member of the community, and very, very new to competitive battling. I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has posted here in this thread. I've learned a ton (even if it took forever to read through it all), about the metagame, Smogon's systems and rules for handling bans, different ways to take advantage of situations, and more. Even though I think the decision is clear at this time (and probably was clear since the thread started), just seeing all the discussion has given me a ton of insight.

By the way, I saw the huge list of things that Mega-Gengar can effectively trap kill, and I am wondering: How does it fare against the other Megas one-on-one? I do understand that it won't matter, as Mega-Gengar doesn't have to stay in against a Pokémon it can't take one-on-one, but I'm curious to see which ones would fall on the list.

One final question: Is Sludge Wave from a Dream World Gastly only, or can it be bred or otherwise transferred to another Gengar by some means?

Yea, if its based off the unlimited utility of mega gengar than the ban makes perfect sense. A lot of posts were particularly talking about OHKO's and what not. I'm new as well :).

Personally I don't think you would 1v1 with your mega, it just seems like a waste when you could possibly be on a sweeping rampage instead of just trying to counter gengar. Only from the dream world for now, but everyone speculates a "Z" version coming soon so you may never know

 

[Ajwf]

My own responses will be in Bold as own paragraphs within the following quote.

This assumes it has already mega-evolved, which I may have mistakenly implied by calling it "M-Gengar". You're correct that if it has already mega evolved, Mamoswine can't switch out, but if that's the case, then I'm going to be looking at your remaining Pokémon and thinking about which of Mamoswine's attacks can maim whatever replaces M-Gengar. That's still a prediction battle that, if done repeatedly, may wind up costing you serious damage on every one of your Pokémon aside from M-Gengar. As your opponent, I'm alright with forcing you to rely on M-Gengar for taking out mid/lategame walls, as damage output against bulk is definitely not its strong suit.

Unfortunately, as the discussion is solely about m-gengar, I'm going to say the switch-in is mostly irrelevant as it is theory on what the rest of the team holds. The relevance to the rest of the team is for taking care of threats for a sweeper, as I previously stated that other speculation can't really help us further discussion. As a result, the damage that 'maims' is in question and prediction is also in question. However, there is little doubt that mamoswine could threaten mega gengar, maybe even force it out. In the future, though, speculating on the damage it causes to the 'team' is hard to argue with/against.


As I already pre-empted in my previous post, 1-for-1 isn't necessarily a win for M-Gengar. I'll reiterate: pro-ban players have argued that it "just" needs to take out one target and can then set up a sweep. This makes a faulty assumption about an unknown metagame that cannot be fleshed out without more thorough evaluation, which is essentially what this whole thread is debating, right?

It indeed makes an assumption. But just one target was not so much stated as just certain pokemon. Should it need to take out all 6 on the opposing team, it probably won't work. But Gar's role is still to select certain pokemon that can wall the sweeper (more so when building the team than in an actual game) and mold the moveset to eliminate those threats. And yes, it does indeed make assumptions about teams we do not know. Therefore, a better theory would be that mega gengar could take down x,y,z counters presented to the sweeper. We cannot determine the amount he can take but we can assume, fairly, he'll at least get one.


Absolutely not. I've already had a post dinged once for my own speculation into what will be OU and what won't, and I won't be baited into another round of that speculation by getting into a debate with you about whether the threats I propose are good enough to be OU in this generation. What you are requesting has been expressly stated as off-topic.

Perfectly content with this. Just remember that checks for gar exist, but counters must have pursuit. I think we're molding a definition of counter for gar as something that can kill him without getting killed when allowed to come in.

In advocating for a quick ban, the burden is on pro-ban posters to argue that (e.g.) only one strong Pursuit user could possibly exist on paper; otherwise we can only find out how the Gen 6 metagame shapes up through more thorough testing. If pro-ban posters cannot rule out all such Pokémon on paper - not just those who were OU in Gen 5 or those they subjectively think will be OU in Gen 6 - which is a difficult task in and of itself, then that is tantamount to admitting that we could all learn useful information from a suspect test. As far as I know, quick bans are only applicable in cases where suspect testing would be a "waste of time."

It really isn't a burden that we have to solve. If n+1 (where n=/= 0) pursuit trappers exist with the sole purpose of going after m-gengar, that is easily an argument for over centralization. An over centralized meta game, as seen in 4th gen, is reason enough for a ban (Aka garchomp).

 

[AOPSUser]

This assumes it has already mega-evolved, which I may have mistakenly implied by calling it "M-Gengar". You're correct that if it has already mega evolved, Mamoswine can't switch out, but if that's the case, then I'm going to be looking at your remaining Pokémon and thinking about which of Mamoswine's attacks can maim whatever replaces M-Gengar. That's still a prediction battle that, if done repeatedly, may wind up costing you serious damage on every one of your Pokémon aside from M-Gengar. As your opponent, I'm alright with forcing you to rely on M-Gengar for taking out mid/lategame walls, as damage output against bulk is definitely not its strong suit.




As I already pre-empted in my previous post, 1-for-1 isn't necessarily a win for M-Gengar. I'll reiterate: pro-ban players have argued that it "just" needs to take out one target and can then set up a sweep. This makes a faulty assumption about an unknown metagame that cannot be fleshed out without more thorough evaluation, which is essentially what this whole thread is debating, right?




Absolutely not. I've already had a post dinged once for my own speculation into what will be OU and what won't, and I won't be baited into another round of that speculation by getting into a debate with you about whether the threats I propose are good enough to be OU in this generation. What you are requesting has been expressly stated as off-topic.

In advocating for a quick ban, the burden is on pro-ban posters to argue that (e.g.) only one strong Pursuit user could possibly exist on paper; otherwise we can only find out how the Gen 6 metagame shapes up through more thorough testing. If pro-ban posters cannot rule out all such Pokémon on paper - not just those who were OU in Gen 5 or those they subjectively think will be OU in Gen 6 - which is a difficult task in and of itself, then that is tantamount to admitting that we could all learn useful information from a suspect test. As far as I know, quick bans are only applicable in cases where suspect testing would be a "waste of time."

If my Gengar is against a Mamoswine, and I'm not Mega'd, I can either:
-Mega, and use Sub (predicting switch)
-Mega, and use Focus Blast (predicting staying in, with a 70% chance of working)
-Not Mega and use Sub/Focus Blast (predicting staying in and using EQ)

If I am already Mega'd:
-I can use Focus Blast and either take the Ice Shard or KO before the EQ (70% of the time)
-I can switch to <insert mon that doesn't care about Mamo's attacks here>.
-I can use Shadow Ball if it's weakened and I'm sure it will kill it.

Also we repeat the argument that it snipes one mon on the opponent's team because it's true. You can specialize your Gengar to take down nearly anything (and in Pokebank, anything). All you need to do is see what can stop your <insert sweeper here> sweep, and make your Mega Gengar able to take it down (unless it's something like Chesnaught or AV Goodra Pre-Bank, and neither of those are stopping sweeps anytime soon). It doesn't matter which sweeper you use, because if you have troubles with <insert defensive mon here>, you can let your Mega Gengar take it down, then fodder it, and sweep.

Also a suspect test is a giant waste of time. We've already established that Mega Gengar severely hampers Stall. If we let the meta develop for a couple months, it will develop without stall, and even when Mega Gengar is eventually banned people will still not use stall, which is a perfectly valid playstyle, simply because no one knows how to use it after 2+ months of Mega Gengar. Whereas if we quickban him now, we can let stall develop.

And Choice Band Scizor is the only thing that can OHKO Mega Gengar from full health with Pursuit if it decides not to switch. And it cannot switch in when Gengar is Mega Evolving, because it will be 2HKOed by Shadow Ball and Bullet Punch does not KO.

 

[dw0914]

Ajwf - thank you for the thorough reply. I agree that it's likely M-Gengar can take down a Pokémon that might be able to wall one of its teammate's sweeping capabilities. That is powerful utility by itself, but as the Gen 6 metagame shifts, we might see a trend toward bulkier offense or even back toward teams with several walls, to the point where M-Gengar can take one but then be put within range of a priority move kill by taking heavy Pursuit damage. An M-Gengar in range of priority move kills is a severely crippled M-Gengar indeed, especially with how common priority moves have become.

It really isn't a burden that we have to solve. If n+1 (where n=/= 0) pursuit trappers exist with the sole purpose of going after m-gengar, that is easily an argument for over centralization. An over centralized meta game, as seen in 4th gen, is reason enough for a ban (Aka garchomp).

This is true, but I don't think we can determine overcentralization on paper, in this case. Quick ban votes (as per moderators) occur only when there is overwhelming consensus that suspect testing will give the same result. M-Gengar clearly has the potential to be dealt with through Pursuit and priority, limiting the number of Pokémon he can trap and "assassinate", especially with no recovery item. Priority moves abound in the current metagame anyway, so their presence isn't overcentralized around M-Gengar. As for Pursuit, there are Pokes who can fill several roles beyond "just countering M-Gengar" and have room for a strong Pursuit in their movesets. If these Pokes, as a class, become more popular in the metagame and can function decently even when they are not just countering an opponent's M-Gengar, then that wouldn't fulfill overcentralization.

At any rate, I've been trying to build on what Zracknel said on p7 without reiterating his argument, but I'd be interested to see counterarguments to his post as well. As he said: " Nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar is a very strong tool. But it's a tool that rewards good play on your part and punishes the mistakes your opponent makes-- Yes, you will get into situations when piloting it that you are guaranteed kills if your opponent plays into your hands-- but those guarantees are still play-skill dependent."

In other words, unlike the Deoxys quick bans, where those Pokémon could set up hazards "at will" regardless of opponent actions, the right prediction can cripple and remove M-Gengar from play, while limiting him to killing a maximum 1 member of your own team (and that 1 member needn't be the lynchpin to one's team, with a proper team composition).

 

[56k]

I think MegaGengar is OU. Here's the situation that's so contentious. Player A has MegaGengar.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out MegaGengar who revenge kills Player B.
Player B sends out the one thing they have that revenge kills MegaGengar. MegaGengar dies.
Player A sends out something that sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now since MegaGengar blew up that wall before.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for MegaGengar to come in.
MegaGengar was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
MegaGengar guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of Shadow Tag and coverage).

It seems overpowered, but the above situation is very comparable to the situation below.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out set-up sweeper that threatens the thing in front of it with OHKO.
Player B sends out their check/counter, but surprise, this sweeper actually carries the coverage moves for this team (but not others...)
Player A sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for [uncounterable coverage 'mon] to come in.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of ability, power level, and coverage).


In the first situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A. In the second situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A.

The spread of guaranteed win conditions out there that MegaGengar gives to teams is at an OU power level just like [uncounterable coverage 'mon]

 

[AOPSUser]

Ajwf - thank you for the thorough reply. I agree that it's likely M-Gengar can take down a Pokémon that might be able to wall one of its teammate's sweeping capabilities. That is powerful utility by itself, but as the Gen 6 metagame shifts, we might see a trend toward bulkier offense or even back toward teams with several walls, to the point where M-Gengar can take one but then be put within range of a priority move kill by taking heavy Pursuit damage. An M-Gengar in range of priority move kills is a severely crippled M-Gengar indeed, especially with how common priority moves have become.



This is true, but I don't think we can determine overcentralization on paper, in this case. Quick ban votes (as per moderators) occur only when there is overwhelming consensus that suspect testing will give the same result. M-Gengar clearly has the potential to be dealt with through Pursuit and priority, limiting the number of Pokémon he can trap and "assassinate", especially with no recovery item. Priority moves abound in the current metagame anyway, so their presence isn't overcentralized around M-Gengar. As for Pursuit, there are Pokes who can fill several roles beyond "just countering M-Gengar" and have room for a strong Pursuit in their movesets. If these Pokes, as a class, become more popular in the metagame and can function decently even when they are not just countering an opponent's M-Gengar, then that wouldn't fulfill overcentralization.

At any rate, I've been trying to build on what Zracknel said on p7 without reiterating his argument, but I'd be interested to see counterarguments to his post as well. As he said: " Nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar is a very strong tool. But it's a tool that rewards good play on your part and punishes the mistakes your opponent makes-- Yes, you will get into situations when piloting it that you are guaranteed kills if your opponent plays into your hands-- but those guarantees are still play-skill dependent."

In other words, unlike the Deoxys quick bans, where those Pokémon could set up hazards "at will" regardless of opponent actions, the right prediction can cripple and remove M-Gengar from play, while limiting him to killing a maximum 1 member of your own team (and that 1 member needn't be the lynchpin to one's team, with a proper team composition).

Yes, you just said it. You need prediction to beat him. If you have Substitute you can use that as you Mega, and if your opponent switches in a Pursuiter, you can switch out. Or you can predict their Pursuiter (if they have Scizor but no TTar just spam Shadow Ball when you Mega, etc.). If you fodder a mon to let him in later, that uses zero prediction, and you cannot stop him from doing his job at that point. Mega Gengar works well with any sweeper because of this, and there are very few things he cannot reliably kill if given the right tools (pre-Pokebank this list consists of Tyranitar (which is dead 49% of the time), and AV Goodra).

If you have a priority user without Pursuit then I switch out.

If you have a priority user with Pursuit then you are using Scizor, Mega Scizor, or Metagross. Only CB variants can OHKO Mega Gengar if it stays in, and gets 2HKOed by Shadow Ball regardless. I don't think I need to explain what happens if Metagross is hit by Shadow Ball.

If you have a Pursuit user that can take lots hits from Mega Gengar, you are using Tyranitar, which is 2HKOed by Focus Blast regardless of item or EVs. Even then, Tyranitar only wins 51% of the time with prediction--if it is EVed enough to take one Focus Blast, it WILL NOT HAVE ENOUGH ATTACK EVs TO KILL MEGA GENGAR WITH PURSUIT if it stays in, so it will have to risk the Crunch and risk the switch, and at this point the prediction goes either way so you don't reliably beat Mega Gengar here by any stretch of the imagination.

The point here is that using Mega Gengar correctly takes quite a bit less skill than playing against it and trying to prevent it from doing its job.

Also it was easier to play around Deoxys's hazards, just pack a good Rapid Spinner and don't have too much of your team weak to SR. With Mega Gengar it doesn't matter how many holes there are on your team, but it will find them. I've seen good OU teams with 3 or even 4 SR-weak mons, for example, but leaving one of your mons weak to Mega Gengar could potentially open up a sweep by one of Mega Gengar's teammates.

I think MegaGengar is OU. Here's the situation that's so contentious. Player A has MegaGengar.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out MegaGengar who revenge kills Player B.
Player B sends out the one thing they have that revenge kills MegaGengar. MegaGengar dies.
Player A sends out something that sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now since MegaGengar blew up that wall before.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for MegaGengar to come in.
MegaGengar was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
MegaGengar guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of Shadow Tag and coverage).

It seems overpowered, but the above situation is very comparable to the situation below.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out set-up sweeper that threatens the thing in front of it with OHKO.
Player B sends out their check/counter, but surprise, this sweeper actually carries the coverage moves for this team (but not others...)
Player A sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for [uncounterable coverage 'mon] to come in.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of ability, power level, and coverage).


In the first situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A. In the second situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A.

The spread of guaranteed win conditions out there that MegaGengar gives to teams is at an OU power level just like [uncounterable coverage 'mon]

The latter situation is like running Focus Punch on LO Gengar--it surprises the Blissey but doesn't have much use outside of that. The difference here is that the latter is a surprise move--the former is the bog-standard Mega Gengar set. The fact is that in the first scenario, the opponent knows what's coming, but still cannot stop it.

 

[Ningildo]

I think MegaGengar is OU. Here's the situation that's so contentious. Player A has MegaGengar.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out MegaGengar who revenge kills Player B.
Player B sends out the one thing they have that revenge kills MegaGengar. MegaGengar dies.
Player A sends out something that sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now since MegaGengar blew up that wall before.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for MegaGengar to come in.
MegaGengar was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
MegaGengar guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of Shadow Tag and coverage).

It seems overpowered, but the above situation is very comparable to the situation below.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out set-up sweeper that threatens the thing in front of it with OHKO.
Player B sends out their check/counter, but surprise, this sweeper actually carries the coverage moves for this team (but not others...)
Player A sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for [uncounterable coverage 'mon] to come in.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of ability, power level, and coverage).


In the first situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A. In the second situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A.

The spread of guaranteed win conditions out there that MegaGengar gives to teams is at an OU power level just like [uncounterable coverage 'mon]

But usually, surprise/lure moves provide sub-optimal coverage against the other things that fear the set-up sweeper's usual moveset. So, yes, you get rid of (one of) your counter(s), in exchange for now losing to the things you usually hit hard beforehand. MGengar allows you to bypass this, without compromising your coverage against the majority of threats and can mix and match its moveset to do this for damn near everything.

 

[farranpoison]

I think MegaGengar is OU. Here's the situation that's so contentious. Player A has MegaGengar.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out MegaGengar who revenge kills Player B.
Player B sends out the one thing they have that revenge kills MegaGengar. MegaGengar dies.
Player A sends out something that sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now since MegaGengar blew up that wall before.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for MegaGengar to come in.
MegaGengar was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
MegaGengar guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of Shadow Tag and coverage).

It seems overpowered, but the above situation is very comparable to the situation below.

Player B kills something on Player A's team.
Player A sends out set-up sweeper that threatens the thing in front of it with OHKO.
Player B sends out their check/counter, but surprise, this sweeper actually carries the coverage moves for this team (but not others...)
Player A sweeps because they have the perfect pokemon now.
The game is over, because Player A had the win condition as soon as Player B gave the free switch for [uncounterable coverage 'mon] to come in.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] was the pokemon that guaranteed the win condition.
[uncounterable coverage 'mon] guarantees win conditions in many free-switch-in opportunities (because of ability, power level, and coverage).


In the first situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A. In the second situation, Player B was guaranteed to lose as soon as they gave that free-switch-in to Player A.

The spread of guaranteed win conditions out there that MegaGengar gives to teams is at an OU power level just like [uncounterable coverage 'mon]

This has been said before, but if MGengar is forcing walls/whatever to run coverage just for MGengar, that pretty much says why Gengarite is being pushed for Uber.

 

[duckberg]

I'd say ban it on a few reasons. Even though the team I've been running happens to have a great Mega Gengar check, the 'Mon in question really takes a lot of skill away from the player using him and severly handcuffs the opponent more than I've ever seen in a Pokemon. Shadow Tag is an ability that has always made a Pokemon ban worthy (see: Chandelier in Gen 5 and it wasn't even ever released iirc.)

The biggest problem I see with MegaGengar is how he destroys ever stall team piece by piece with Shadow Tag-Perish Song. Stall is very dependant on all 6 Pokemon working as a unit to slowly but surely deteriorate the opponent until they are forced into an impossible decision. Mega Gengar simply takes out atleast one Pokemon and makes stall synergy impossible to keep up at peak efficiency. It's not that Mega Gengar is overpowered by any means. But Shadow Tag is in general for any Pokemon who has ever had it.

 

[56k]

When I said coverage 'mons, I meant pokemon like Lucario who might have flash cannon, Landorus might have Stone Edge, or kangaskhan might have fire punch. Even if the opponent knows or doesn't know whats coming, and makes good predictions or not, it's still called a win condition because that's what it is for Player A. Guaranteed to win. I think that the amount of win conditions that Gengar@Gengarite forces in the late-game, as well as his power level in the early game, is at an OU power level because the nature of Gen VI OU is overall explosive, team-match-up-advantaged, unpredictable, and very fast, prioritized, and revenge-y.

 

[AOPSUser]

When I said coverage 'mons, I meant pokemon like Lucario who might have flash cannon, Landorus might have Stone Edge, or kangaskhan might have fire punch. Even if the opponent knows or doesn't know whats coming, and makes good predictions or not, it's still called a win condition because that's what it is for Player A. Guaranteed to win. I think that the amount of win conditions that Gengar@Gengarite forces in the late-game, as well as his power level in the early game, is at an OU power level because the nature of Gen VI OU is overall explosive, team-match-up-advantaged, unpredictable, and very fast, prioritized, and revenge-y.

Those moves are what you expect.

If you don't prepare for those moves then you deserve to lose. Period.

 

[dw0914]

If my Gengar is against a Mamoswine, and I'm not Mega'd, I can either:
-Mega, and use Sub (predicting switch)
-Mega, and use Focus Blast (predicting staying in, with a 70% chance of working)
-Not Mega and use Sub/Focus Blast (predicting staying in and using EQ)

If I am already Mega'd:
-I can use Focus Blast and either take the Ice Shard or KO before the EQ (70% of the time)
-I can switch to <insert mon that doesn't care about Mamo's attacks here>.
-I can use Shadow Ball if it's weakened and I'm sure it will kill it.

A portion of those scenarios are, as I said, prediction games that can go either direction. The latter scenarios assume that this is the first time M-Gengar has made an appearance and isn't already weakened into Ice Shard KO range, in which case he might be able to kill Mamoswine, but that may be the only kill he's able to make, if Mamoswine's death is followed up by a strong Pursuit. Prediction can play a role there, too, but M-Gengar is likely to take enough damage to put it in priority KO range afterward.

Also we repeat the argument that it snipes one mon on the opponent's team because it's true. You can specialize your Gengar to take down nearly anything (and in Pokebank, anything). All you need to do is see what can stop your <insert sweeper here> sweep, and make your Mega Gengar able to take it down (unless it's something like Chesnaught or AV Goodra Pre-Bank, and neither of those are stopping sweeps anytime soon). It doesn't matter which sweeper you use, because if you have troubles with <insert defensive mon here>, you can let your Mega Gengar take it down, then fodder it, and sweep.

But that trick only works once against a good player who predicts well, and that good player might have more than one Pokémon to stop your sweeper.

You have posted about "needing prediction" to beat M-Gengar as if that's some kind of quick ban justification; how does that differ from any other strong OU Pokémon? The question is the difficulty of that prediction game, i.e. whether a good player can win it a reasonable portion of the time or whether they are very likely to lose. You have implied that it is a very difficult prediction game for M-Gengar opponents to win, thus making M-Gengar worthy of a quick ban. My claim is that we do not know enough about how the Gen 6 metagame will shake out to agree with you. A suspect test might very well deny this as the metagame shifts somewhat toward bulky offensive Pokémon who happen to have room for Pursuit. Such Pokémon can be good even on their own, meaning they're not there for the sole, centralizing purpose of stopping M-Gengar. After all, plenty of bulky offense Pokémon already save their 4th moveslot for a common threat (as one of many examples, think of all the HP Fighting to deal with Tyranitar).

Finally, a side note:

Whereas if we quickban him now, we can let stall develop.

That's an opinion on ban policy, not an evaluation of M-Gengar on its merits.

 

[duckberg]

When I said coverage 'mons, I meant pokemon like Lucario who might have flash cannon, Landorus might have Stone Edge, or kangaskhan might have fire punch. Even if the opponent knows or doesn't know whats coming, and makes good predictions or not, it's still called a win condition because that's what it is for Player A. Guaranteed to win. I think that the amount of win conditions that Gengar@Gengarite forces in the late-game, as well as his power level in the early game, is at an OU power level because the nature of Gen VI OU is overall explosive, team-match-up-advantaged, unpredictable, and very fast, prioritized, and revenge-y.

But the meta is like that only because Mega Gengar (And MegaKhan to an extent) is making it impossible to play any other way.

Overly spastic index finger edit: My point is that any Pokemon that can single handedly kill an entire playstyle should be banned.

 

[AOPSUser]

A portion of those scenarios are, as I said, prediction games that can go either direction. The latter scenarios assume that this is the first time M-Gengar has made an appearance and isn't already weakened into Ice Shard KO range, in which case he might be able to kill Mamoswine, but that may be the only kill he's able to make, if Mamoswine's death is followed up by a strong Pursuit. Prediction can play a role there, too, but M-Gengar is likely to take enough damage to put it in priority KO range afterward.

And what if my sweeper is a Salamence? It might only need Mamoswine killed first. Most of the time I just switch to <insert physical wall here>.

But that trick only works once against a good player who predicts well, and that good player might have more than one Pokémon to stop your sweeper.

You have posted about "needing prediction" to beat M-Gengar as if that's some kind of quick ban justification; how does that differ from any other strong OU Pokémon? The question is the difficulty of that prediction game, i.e. whether a good player can win it a reasonable portion of the time or whether they are very likely to lose. You have implied that it is a very difficult prediction game for M-Gengar opponents to win, thus making M-Gengar worthy of a quick ban. My claim is that we do not know enough about how the Gen 6 metagame will shake out to agree with you. A suspect test might very well deny this as the metagame shifts somewhat toward bulky offensive Pokémon who happen to have room for Pursuit. Such Pokémon can be good even on their own, meaning they're not there for the sole, centralizing purpose of stopping M-Gengar. After all, plenty of bulky offense Pokémon already save their 4th moveslot for a common threat (as one of many examples, think of all the HP Fighting to deal with Tyranitar).

HP Fighting doesn't beat Tyranitar and never did, unless it was something as powerful as Specs Latios.

But anyways, Substitute eases prediction a lot for Mega Gengar, so you can switch out of Pursuit. Also eventually it will get PerishTrap, which we have already established that there is pretty much no way to beat, and right now there are no such bulky Pursuiters. Plus, that scenario where you fodder a mon takes zero prediction for the Gengar user, and it is at that point going to do its job no matter what.

Finally, a side note:




That's an opinion on ban policy, not an evaluation of M-Gengar on its merits.

Mega Gengar is able to destroy stall very well--you don't see so many stall teams on the ladder now. While most people might attribute it to stuff like Genesect, they are easy to play around for stall (most stall teams run Heatran, etc.). But if your Heatran gets PerishTrapped by Mega Gengar, Genesect wrecks you, and there's no way to stop that other than to run Shed Shell Heatran (which was something people actually did run back in BW2 to deal with Genesect). If you're forced to run such things to beat Mega Gengar+offensive mon on stall teams, stall is pretty dead.

 

[Ningildo]

When I said coverage 'mons, I meant pokemon like Lucario who might have flash cannon, Landorus might have Stone Edge, or kangaskhan might have fire punch. Even if the opponent knows or doesn't know whats coming, and makes good predictions or not, it's still called a win condition because that's what it is for Player A. Guaranteed to win. I think that the amount of win conditions that Gengar@Gengarite forces in the late-game, as well as his power level in the early game, is at an OU power level because the nature of Gen VI OU is overall explosive, team-match-up-advantaged, unpredictable, and very fast, prioritized, and revenge-y.

Don't forget HP Scizor
But the pokemon you mention either have coverage issues (Lucario, MKangaskhan) or have better things to do then attempt to sweep (Lando-T, Lando-I (at least in the case of sweeping on the physical side, trust me when I say Special Lando-I is superior at that)). And even so, it's usually evident what kind of set you're running from team preview (Say you have a team that is walled entirely by Gliscor unless Luke is Special/has Ice Punch. Your opponent is going to be wary in this case about luke so he won't sac the one thing he needs to continue walling you forever). Finally, in these cases, you at least have the option to take a risk and scout the moveset of the unpredictable mon. MGengar doesn't even allow that option unless you use Shed Shell and get worn down easily and get broken through anyway.

 

[Skyblade12]

This is true, but I don't think we can determine overcentralization on paper, in this case. Quick ban votes (as per moderators) occur only when there is overwhelming consensus that suspect testing will give the same result. M-Gengar clearly has the potential to be dealt with through Pursuit and priority, limiting the number of Pokémon he can trap and "assassinate", especially with no recovery item. Priority moves abound in the current metagame anyway, so their presence isn't overcentralized around M-Gengar. As for Pursuit, there are Pokes who can fill several roles beyond "just countering M-Gengar" and have room for a strong Pursuit in their movesets. If these Pokes, as a class, become more popular in the metagame and can function decently even when they are not just countering an opponent's M-Gengar, then that wouldn't fulfill overcentralization.

Mega-Gengar has to be dealt with through Pursuit and Priority on a single Pokémon (and there are only three viable options there anyway). If you run Pursuit but lack the Priority, Mega-Gengar will never switch out and will just kill you by itself. Also, Pursuit is heavily dependent on proper prediction anyway, because of how easily Substitute is set up.

And apparently only Tyranitar can actually OHKO Mega-Gengar with Pursuit, and Mega-Gengar can Focus Blast it to death most of the time anyway.