Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Lazybeef]

I am not a fan of shadow tag so I am probably a bit biased in this matter. Still, I think Gengarite should be banned from OU play.

Gengar is too powerful to have shadow tag. MGar would be balanced if it got intimidate or something but shadow tag on something so powerful as gengar is very unhealthy for the metagame. It hurts the diveristy of playstyles. Offensive teams can deal with gengar because they can usually spare a poke, but defensive teams are hit hard by a powerful shadow tag user. You can't play around it, because if it can kill something, it will kill it. It can single handedly break down entire defensive cores.

The fact that it needs a turn to mega-evolve is essentially a non-issue. It's not hard to mega evolve. Just use substitute when you are matched up against something slower than you (every defensive pokemon). If MGar stays I think not many people would risk bringing defensive teams to tournaments, and the nature of the metagame would lean even further towards offense.

The real question is, do we use the power of banning to make stall more viable? I think Chou Toshio made a survey at the end of the BW2 era, and that was one of the questions. If I remember correctly, the results indicated that "yes" was the most favoured answer.

 

[AOPSUser]

Mega-Gengar has to be dealt with through Pursuit and Priority on a single Pokémon (and there are only three viable options there anyway). If you run Pursuit but lack the Priority, Mega-Gengar will never switch out and will just kill you by itself. Also, Pursuit is heavily dependent on proper prediction anyway, because of how easily Substitute is set up.

And apparently only Tyranitar can actually OHKO Mega-Gengar with Pursuit, and Mega-Gengar can Focus Blast it to death most of the time anyway.

No, only Scizor can. Tyranitar can only do so if it runs so many attack EVs that it fails to survive Focus Blast, and as such it is risky to try to Pursuit him with Tyranitar.

 

[56k]

Those moves are what you expect.

If you don't prepare for those moves then you deserve to lose. Period.

If your opponent was playing at your level, at some point earlier in the game you had to make judgements on different decision trees because at that point they knew what was going to happen and you didn't. It goes back and forth. Even the lead is a question. Sometimes it's mid game and judging against u-turn. Anyway, tons of pokemon capitalize on those situations where a good move can lead to a free turn, every pokemon in the book can use a mid game free turn to make a devastating checkmate. MegaGengar can checkmate in tons of situations because after he megaevolves and after he swaps immunities and after he gets a free turn against certain pokemon he can trap many different pokemon and kill it. You can only play this card if nothing else megaevolved. The other megaevolutions and flying/fairy/steel/dark/ghost/normal/fighting types are balanced into gengar's level of power.

 

[Skyblade12]

No, only Scizor can. Tyranitar can only do so if it runs so many attack EVs that it fails to survive Focus Blast, and as such it is risky to try to Pursuit him with Tyranitar.

Sorry, my mistake. Still, only having a single Pokémon that can genuinely threaten it is not good news for Mega-Gengar's OU viability. Especially since most players, upon seeing Scizor in the team preview, would slam on the Substitute during the Mega-Evolution turn anyway, just to be safe, and escape Pursuit unharmed. One of the easier predictions to make. And it does create an over-reliance on running Scizor in every team just as a Mega-Gengar check.

 

[Patrick1088]

While gengar is a threat its not unmanageable. I faced one the other day and it tried to perish trap my skarmory but it had shed shell so it ended up being pursuit bait for ttar on the switch. It is stronv but its not impossible to beat.

 

[farranpoison]

While gengar is a threat its not unmanageable. I faced one the other day and it tried to perish trap my skarmory but it had shed shell so it ended up being pursuit bait for ttar on the switch. It is stronv but its not impossible to beat.

It's getting tiresome to say this, but anecdotal experience where "lol I beat MGengar once" is not evidence against MGengar's strengths at all.

 

[Ningildo]

If your opponent was playing at your level, at some point earlier in the game you had to make judgements on different decision trees because at that point they knew what was going to happen and you didn't. It goes back and forth. Even the lead is a question. Sometimes it's mid game and judging against u-turn. Anyway, tons of pokemon capitalize on those situations where a good move can lead to a free turn, every pokemon in the book can use a mid game free turn to make a devastating checkmate. MegaGengar can checkmate in tons of situations because after he megaevolves and after he swaps immunities and after he gets a free turn against certain pokemon he can trap many different pokemon and kill it. You can only play this card if nothing else megaevolved. The other megaevolutions and flying/fairy/steel/dark/ghost/normal/fighting types are balanced into gengar's level of power.

Usually, pokemon with multiple options for the last moveslot will generally be using the option that's the most anti-meta at that moment until the anti-meta move becomes the most used one and the meta adapts to consider that standard. Which will eventually lead to another option becoming anti-meta...

But even then, the surprise move works only for certain threats and only once a game. MGengar can do this for nearly everything (although for certain things it needs different moves) and even if you know it's coming and attempt to predict it every time, one mistake means game. The one turn needed for Mevo is moot as already pointed out.

 

[MagicMissingno]

While gengar is a threat its not unmanageable. I faced one the other day and it tried to perish trap my skarmory but it had shed shell so it ended up being pursuit bait for ttar on the switch. It is stronv but its not impossible to beat.

Shed Shell is a bad item for a wall. They should be running Leftovers, Chesto/Lum berry, Black Sludge (if poison type), or Toxic Orb (with Poison Heal) for more recovery.

 

[duckberg]

While gengar is a threat its not unmanageable. I faced one the other day and it tried to perish trap my skarmory but it had shed shell so it ended up being pursuit bait for ttar on the switch. It is stronv but its not impossible to beat.

And if the player was good and tried to pursuit trap any other Mon he would have wrecked it. Single cases in these instances do not work. Your point basically says "Shed shell counters Gengar" but what if its not perish trap and it has tbolt? That's a dead skarm and a wasted item slot.

 

[farranpoison]

Shed Shell is a bad item for a wall. They should be running Leftovers, Chesto/Lum berry, Black Sludge (if poison type), or Toxic Orb (with Poison Heal) for more recovery.

Not necessarily for Skarmory. With Shed Shell, they can escape Magnezone.

 

[AuguryOfRuin]

A portion of those scenarios are, as I said, prediction games that can go either direction. The latter scenarios assume that this is the first time M-Gengar has made an appearance and isn't already weakened into Ice Shard KO range, in which case he might be able to kill Mamoswine, but that may be the only kill he's able to make, if Mamoswine's death is followed up by a strong Pursuit. Prediction can play a role there, too, but M-Gengar is likely to take enough damage to put it in priority KO range afterward.



But that trick only works once against a good player who predicts well, and that good player might have more than one Pokémon to stop your sweeper.

You have posted about "needing prediction" to beat M-Gengar as if that's some kind of quick ban justification; how does that differ from any other strong OU Pokémon? The question is the difficulty of that prediction game, i.e. whether a good player can win it a reasonable portion of the time or whether they are very likely to lose. You have implied that it is a very difficult prediction game for M-Gengar opponents to win, thus making M-Gengar worthy of a quick ban. My claim is that we do not know enough about how the Gen 6 metagame will shake out to agree with you. A suspect test might very well deny this as the metagame shifts somewhat toward bulky offensive Pokémon who happen to have room for Pursuit. Such Pokémon can be good even on their own, meaning they're not there for the sole, centralizing purpose of stopping M-Gengar. After all, plenty of bulky offense Pokémon already save their 4th moveslot for a common threat (as one of many examples, think of all the HP Fighting to deal with Tyranitar).

Finally a side note:




That's an opinion on ban policy, not an evaluation of M-Gengar on its merits.

While I'm voting on not banning, after further testing and playinga round M-Gengar I just found out how hard he is to predict and try to counter. I run Max HP mega tyranitar, so if I see a mega gengar coming, I would want to switch into my mega tyranitar right? Focus blast and screw that tyranitar. Predicting a M-gengar is just so hard, because its REALLY hard to say what moves it might run. Does it run dazzling gleam? If It doesn't my goodra can take it on, no problem. If it does, there goes my goodra. I think M-gengar is a very difficult friend to deal with. I think we should wait till the suspect testing, to give a tad bit more time to try and figure out good checks to this thing. Its the coverage it can have that makes him a hell. It can run super effective damage on ANYTHING it wants! Its a big bastard but, I'm going to keep on trying to figure out something to help out against him, if I find nothing to counter him well enough, I say we ban him in the suspect testing. But untill then, let him stay for now.

 

[TROP]

I say we ban him in the suspect testing. But untill then, let him stay for now.

Gengarite would get banned after a suspect test no matter what. Can we stop with this?Because iirc the main reason this is up for quickban is because the council knows it will get banned anyway.

 

[dw0914]

Mega-Gengar has to be dealt with through Pursuit and Priority on a single Pokémon (and there are only three viable options there anyway). If you run Pursuit but lack the Priority, Mega-Gengar will never switch out and will just kill you by itself.

Honestly, that's a very strong point, and if it were true in all cases I'd agree with you that on paper, there would be enough evidence that a suspect test would prove wasteful.

But has this been proven true in all cases? That's not rhetorical; I truly do not know. Assault Vest doesn't help? Screens (e.g. Klefki, who is floating around on a lot of teams) can't help patch up this problem? Entry hazards can be a factor too; a team that makes use of Sticky Web could make it more dangerous for M-Gengar to come in. I realize that this cuts both ways, i.e. M-Gengar's team can run hazards and screens too, but at the very least it's worth considering the options. Never mind that a more defensive game (because of screens) can work against M-Gengar because he lacks recovery items that his opponent might have. (NB: hypothetical Pokebank PerishTrap set complicates this, I know.)

Arguments like Skyblade12's, if correct, would mean that the only way to stop M-Gengar is an overcentralization of the metagame, and that's good enough for a quick ban in my book. However, there might be ways around that statement.

On the other hand, claims like "we all know it'll get banned in suspect testing" are unhelpful. If that were true, there wouldn't be a vote or a debate.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Pursuit has only a single purpose, to catch switching Pokémon. With the rise in popularity of moves like Volt Switch and U Turn, Pursuit becomes even less of a threat than it has been in the past, since it won't strike Volt-Turners.

Wait...it DID hit Pokemon that used the move in 5th Gen. You mean to tell me that they changed the mechanics of Pursuit in 6th Gen (or is that just a slip of the fingers)? I swore that Pursuit hit Pokemon that used it. I even checked going against my brother in BW2 when Scizor's Pursuit hit Landorus.

Landorus used U-Turn!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Landorus returned to King (my brother)!
Scizor used Pursuit!

Those exact logs...

 

[Skyblade12]

Wait...it DID hit Pokemon that used the move in 5th Gen. You mean to tell me that they changed the mechanics of Pursuit in 6th Gen (or is that just a slip of the fingers)? I swore that Pursuit hit Pokemon that used it. I even checked going against my brother in BW2 when Scizor's Pursuit hit Landorus.

Landorus used U-Turn!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Landorus returned to King (my brother)!
Scizor used Pursuit!

Those exact logs...

Pursuit will hit people who use U-Turn or Volt Switch, but only if it is faster than the changing Pokémon. Even when it does hit, however, it does not get the double damage boost.

In short, against Volt-Turns, Pursuit is just a normal, non Priority, 40 BP Dark move, and therefore, not worth using.

 

[farranpoison]

Pursuit will hit people who use U-Turn or Volt Switch, but only if it is faster than the changing Pokémon. Even when it does hit, however, it does not get the double damage boost.

In short, against Volt-Turns, Pursuit is just a normal, non Priority, 40 BP Dark move, and therefore, not worth using.

Actually, no. I used U-turn with a Talonflame ingame against a Tyranitar. I attacked, and was about to switch out. Tyranitar Pursuited my Talonflame after I hit it with U-Turn and before I switched out. And yes, it does double damage.

 

[Azure Demon]

HP Fighting doesn't beat Tyranitar and never did, unless it was something as powerful as Specs Latios.

But anyways, Substitute eases prediction a lot for Mega Gengar, so you can switch out of Pursuit. Also eventually it will get PerishTrap, which we have already established that there is pretty much no way to beat, and right now there are no such bulky Pursuiters. Plus, that scenario where you fodder a mon takes zero prediction for the Gengar user, and it is at that point going to do its job no matter what.

Tyranitar is a bulky pursuit pokemon especially in the sand.

However, I am definitely pro-ban on this guy. I love how everyone's arguments on the anti ban sides are either switch into your pursuiter before he has his mega set up implying that you aren't making mega gar's job easier or you have to use pokemon ab or c to get rid of him.

First, switching into a pursuit user before he mega evolves is a bad idea. People seem to forget that mega-gengar doesn't have to choose between mega evolving and attacking on that turn no it can mega evolve and attack/setup. So while you are switching in your you just trapped your check and could have given gengar a free sub, parish song, shadow ball or whatever

I remember gen 5 how excadrill was so strong people ran either conk or azumaril out of necessity just to get rid of the little bum and as soon as he was good so was a lot of azumarill's usage and quite a bit of conk's also. If a single pokemon drives is capable of driving the usage of a particular move, pokemon, or play style sky high then it should be removed. Not to mention fun

Pursuit will hit people who use U-Turn or Volt Switch, but only if it is faster than the changing Pokémon. Even when it does hit, however, it does not get the double damage boost.

In short, against Volt-Turns, Pursuit is just a normal, non Priority, 40 BP Dark move, and therefore, not worth using.

Pursuit hits all forms of switching except baton pass and yes my good sir the damage still doubles.

 

[BurningMan]

Pursuit will hit people who use U-Turn or Volt Switch, but only if it is faster than the changing Pokémon. Even when it does hit, however, it does not get the double damage boost.

In short, against Volt-Turns, Pursuit is just a normal, non Priority, 40 BP Dark move, and therefore, not worth using.

Thats wrong if a faster Pokemon uses Volt Switch/U-Turn they will take double damage from Pursuit. It just doesn't works against baton pass.

 

[I2edShift]

The other megaevolutions and flying/fairy/steel/dark/ghost/normal/fighting types are balanced into gengar's level of power.

(I'm assuming you're talking about Mega Gengar)

No, they're not. Except for mmaaayyyybbeee Khangaskhan. Maybe. Even then MegaKhan isn't guaranteed a kill and can be checked or forced out.

A sun boosted STAB fire Blast from 159 special attack is weaksauce compared to being able selectively kill whatever the fuck you want. Mega Lucario's physical/special offenses aren't as useful, Mega Aggrons absurd defenses can still be torn through with powerful special attacks. Pinsir has a ton of weaknesses, limited bulk, has Stealth Rock phobia, and limited speed. Mega Tyranitar has tons of weaknesses and is easily outsped.

I can go on, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets the point by now.

 

[Azure Demon]

(I'm assuming you're talking about Mega Gengar)

No, they're not. Except for mmaaayyyybbeee Khangaskhan. Maybe. Even then MegaKhan isn't guaranteed a kill and can be checked or forced out.

A sun boosted STAB fire Blast from 159 special attack is weaksauce compared to being able selectively kill whatever the fuck you want. Mega Lucario's physical/special offenses aren't as useful, Mega Aggrons absurd defenses can still be torn through with powerful special attacks. Pinsir has a ton of weaknesses, limited bulk, has Stealth Rock phobia, and limited speed. Mega Tyranitar has tons of weaknesses and is easily outsped.

I can go on, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets the point by now.

I absolutely agree with you also people have to think how many more checks/counters will come to charizard Y when pokebank drops. The most notable one being heatran.

 

[I2edShift]

I absolutely agree with you also people have to think how many more checks/counters will come to charizard Y when pokebank drops. The most notable one being heatran.

That goes for every mega out there. ZardY might as well be a reskinned Volcarona with more immediate power. Discussion for another thread though.

Anyways, no other pokemon in OU can selectively kill whatever it wants. Regardless of type, items, or match ups in in vast majority of cases. Hell most Ubers can't even do something comparable this, except maybe Darkrai?

I mean Come on, a mega Gengar can easily take out a damm Kyogre with its ability and Destiny Bond. Congrats, you now free use of sun in Ubers! All without sacking multiple teammates.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Could someone post some replays at 1800+ ladder utilizing MGengar well? I decided that if I'm going to support this MGengar ban I might as well try MGengar in practice. I used a perish song set but found it incredibly hard to switch in due to MGengar's mediocre bulk. Without leftovers or any recovery, MGengar can only make a maximum of 4 substitutes, but that's only if you never take any damage. Since MGengar is vulnerable for a turn when actually using perish song, I can really only expect one sub max, maybe two. After some passive damage, MGengar is just gonna die on the turn it uses Perish Song. And this is all assuming you found a safe way to switch in or you came in after one of your own pokes have died.

Put simply, which one of MGengar's sets is causing him to be banned? When I tried his PSong set, I could only pull off two kills when I was lucky. And when people say MGengar's purpose is to kill off the counters to your sweeper, I couldn't pull that off because it was simply too difficult to switch in MGengar with his mediocre bulk. Could someone post some replays at 1800+ ladder utilizing the PSong set? Could someone post some replays using other sets? I was under the impression that the PSong set was the set causing MGengar to be overpowered, however when I tried it out it was truly underwhelming. Am I playing the PSong set wrong, or it another set that is overpowered?

 

[Lord Disick]

In a metagame full of incredibly strong priority, items such as assault vest, eviolite, etc., Special defensive monsters such as chansey and goodra, and not to mention faster threats that can OHKO mega gengar such as mega alakazam, and many choice scarfers, i don't see how Mega Gengar can get banned. It may not have too many absolute counters, but there are many pokemon that can force, or simply take it out.

 

[RoboZygo]

^ That's honestly how I feel. I've seen MGengar lots of times, and the worst thing he ever did was get a kill off and then die right afterwards. (I'm aware this isn't evidence). I honestly just DON'T feel like MGengar will have such a horrible effect on the metagame that he deserves to be banned. Honestly, I feel like REGULAR Gengar is a bigger threat, whenever someone mega evo's into MGengar I laugh a little and I'm like "Alright, here we go, thanks bud". Even with Psong/whatever, he's really just not that great. Even though you can switch to whatever mon you want, I feel like using your Mega Evo for basically a utility pokemon with good offensive stats doesn't make up for it. MGengar never has a confirmed kill, it's how you play it. He's high risk with (semi) high reward.

 

[I2edShift]

In a metagame full of incredibly strong priority, items such as assault vest, eviolite, etc., Special defensive monsters such as chansey and goodra, and not to mention faster threats that can OHKO mega gengar such as mega alakazam, and many choice scarfers, i don't see how Mega Gengar can get banned. It may not have too many absolute counters, but there are many pokemon that can force, or simply take it out.

So we are all required to run priority attacks or choice Scarf mon that's able to out speed and OHKO any possible variation of Mega Gengar? Or use one of the what, four(?) things that naturally out speed it? For specifically THIS pokemon?

Thats over centralization clause my friend.