Why does Goodra need recovery.
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Pokémon Goodra [REVAMP]
- Thread starter TaBuu
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because it's really hard to kill, and it appreciates the longevity that comes with Leftovers.
Meanwhile it gets increased longevity via Assault Vest.
yes, but which longevity is longer?
I'm playing devil's advocate here because the initial spark to this conversation was essentially that Assault Vest wasn't good because Goodra needs recovery. There's a lot more to it then that. Irregardless of which gives longer longevity, Assault Vest is immediate, which is important. It allows you to do things like survive Latios Draco Meteor and OHKO in return, and it gives you a chance to have Goodra act as a pivot. Leftovers doesn't give you this option. In exchange for using Assault Vest, you forfeit non-offensive options. But what exactly does Goodra have?
- Protect
- Toxic
- Rest + Sleep Talk
- Curse
In other words, not a whole lot.
It doesn't have a movepool that appreciates long, sustained fights. It hits hard for a wall, with an excellent 100/110 set of offences. It's job is to get in, take a hit, give a bigger hit, get out.
People have already posted comparisons between Leftovers vs Assault Vest, but I'm not going to go dig them out. Just read through the thread. Either way, I wouldn't consider Leftovers over Assault Vest unless you had a different role for it in mind. But to say 'Leftovers is best on Goodra' is quite foolish.
To my mind the higher the level of opposition you're playing against, the better a choice Leftovers becomes. Lower on the ladder people will try and break through Goodra with attacks, but have no idea how to wear it down if that doesn't work, making Assault Vest an arguably better option. More skilled players can work to keep Stealth Rock up and wear down an Assault Vest Goodra quickly with doubleswitching or Volt Switch, whereas a Leftovers version would have significantly greater survivability in that scenario.
The more offensive a team you're using Goodra on, the better a choice Assault Vest becomes as well vs Leftovers, for obvious reasons.
The more offensive a team you're using Goodra on, the better a choice Assault Vest becomes as well vs Leftovers, for obvious reasons.
Goodra can't pivot without Assault Vest you say? What item do you think pivots used last generation?!? Leftovers is perfect for coming in on moves like Volt Switch or Hidden Power Fire, sure Assault Vest weakens them but they're hardly doing any damage to Goodra anyway so I'd wager that you actually end up with more health with Leftovers.
Also, consider eliminating this from your vocabulary? Double negatives and all that.
Also, consider eliminating this from your vocabulary? Double negatives and all that.
Kind of ruins your otherwise perfectly eloquent post. :)
TKG and I just gave reasons why Leftovers is often superior on a pivot vs increased bulk. Just because you're sacrificing special bulk to run Leftovers doesn't mean at all you "have to" invest more in SpDef to make up for it.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/goodra.3489897/page-18#post-4986568
AV goodra with no spdef investment has about the same bulk as lefties goodra with max spdef investment. Technically it has greater bulk but damage calculations understate the impact lefties have in long games.
Personally for an offensive pivot, I'd gladly trade some longevity for an more offensive presence.
AV goodra with no spdef investment has about the same bulk as lefties goodra with max spdef investment. Technically it has greater bulk but damage calculations understate the impact lefties have in long games.
AV goodra already runs max special attack. If you're moving EVs from spdef into spatk on the lefties set then AV goodra gets even bulkier in comparison while either hitting harder than or equal to lefties.
Personally for an offensive pivot, I'd gladly trade some longevity for an more offensive presence.
You 'wagering' isn't very convincing. I'm also not interested in semantics.
You didn't give reasons so much as you made claims. Give me in game scenarios with calculations.
...I feel like I obviously haven't made something clear. I'm assuming 252 HP / SpAtk with both Assault Vest and Leftovers, and saying that with this spread, Leftovers may well be superior in the common scenarios mentioned (specifically, playing against double switching or weak attacks such as Volt Switch with Stealth Rock / other hazards up). The Leftovers spread may benefit more from some added special defense investment to avoid certain KO's, but it's irrelevant to the current discussion.
Ulevo, surely you can understand that calculations aren't necessary to see that Leftovers could be superior? If you're taking hazard damage or minor levels of damage (such that the damage reduced by Assault Vest is less than what Leftovers heals), Leftovers is more effective; if you're taking predominantly heavy attack damage, Assault Vest is better. This is fact. At some point on this scale (hazards/minor attacks/status damage vs heavy attack damage), Leftovers and Assault Vest are equally useful. I just don't understand how you can possibly dispute these conclusions?
I'm not disputing that Leftovers could be more useful in specific situation or in a given team. This entire conversation started on the premise that Leftovers is better than Assault Vest. That is what I'm disputing.
It depends on how you want to run your Goodra.
Me I use AV because Goodra is going to soak up special hits like a monster. A life orb STAB ice beam from Greninja does 29% WITHOUT AV.
Then you can invest in Special Attack so you can wreck things more.
I run Muddy Water,Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse,Power Whip/Fire Blast/Focus Blast,Sludge Bomb.
Without Fire Blast Chesnaught is a good wall though.
Me I use AV because Goodra is going to soak up special hits like a monster. A life orb STAB ice beam from Greninja does 29% WITHOUT AV.
Then you can invest in Special Attack so you can wreck things more.
I run Muddy Water,Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse,Power Whip/Fire Blast/Focus Blast,Sludge Bomb.
Without Fire Blast Chesnaught is a good wall though.
That set's a bit backwards, if you want to go totally defensive and toxic stall then you should invest in bulk not SpAtk. Besides, Gliscor, Vaporeon etc do that job better, the thing you want to abuse with Goodra is its good offenses. Heatran completely walls that set also.
You would use Goodra on a team where you had a glaring grass weakness (which is a bit rare) with sap sipper and give your opponent something to think about. Other than that this Pokemon really serves as just another bulky Dragon. Unfortunately it just seems like a nearly man for now with the weather nerf because this Goodra would have been used so much more in the last generation.
This is my curse Goodra set that I use:
Leftovers
Sap Sipper w/ Careful nature
252hp/252sp.def/4def
-Curse
-Dragon Tail
-Aqua Tail
-Rest
It's similar to what someone else said earlier in the thread, but this set aims to maximize sp.def because he can't boost it. I love to come in on a pokemon that is setting up, and boost until I have at least +2. Then I rest off any damage and proceed to dragon tail everything, with aqua tail for steel or fairy types. I mainly use this set after I have entry hazards up, but this set can work without it.
Goodra's main use on my team is to get rid of walls, because I can switch in, boost up, and phaze them out or kill them.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-76149209
Weaknesses I've found so far are strong Ice beam users like protean Greninja and strong fairy types (modest Togekiss can 2HKO with Dazzling Gleam). I also have to rely on Curse, so the need to set up is also kind of a liability. I pair this guy up with Aegislash/Mega Lucario/Metagross, and it works for me ^^
Leftovers
Sap Sipper w/ Careful nature
252hp/252sp.def/4def
-Curse
-Dragon Tail
-Aqua Tail
-Rest
It's similar to what someone else said earlier in the thread, but this set aims to maximize sp.def because he can't boost it. I love to come in on a pokemon that is setting up, and boost until I have at least +2. Then I rest off any damage and proceed to dragon tail everything, with aqua tail for steel or fairy types. I mainly use this set after I have entry hazards up, but this set can work without it.
Goodra's main use on my team is to get rid of walls, because I can switch in, boost up, and phaze them out or kill them.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-76149209
Weaknesses I've found so far are strong Ice beam users like protean Greninja and strong fairy types (modest Togekiss can 2HKO with Dazzling Gleam). I also have to rely on Curse, so the need to set up is also kind of a liability. I pair this guy up with Aegislash/Mega Lucario/Metagross, and it works for me ^^
I run
Babas(Goodra)@AssaultVest
252HP 252SpAtk 4Def
Modest / Gooey
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast
Initially I had Sludge Bomb but I removed it because the only fairies around were Azumarill, Mawile (both destroy Goodra with a Play Rough) and Togekiss (which can be killed with Thunderbolt). I pair Goodra with Gliscor (Impish and full defense), and switch between them depending on the attack. And if there is a monster like Scarfchomp I let Goodra die to it so Gooey helps my team handle with the monster later.
But I don't know. I'm new at competitive.
Babas(Goodra)@AssaultVest
252HP 252SpAtk 4Def
Modest / Gooey
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast
Initially I had Sludge Bomb but I removed it because the only fairies around were Azumarill, Mawile (both destroy Goodra with a Play Rough) and Togekiss (which can be killed with Thunderbolt). I pair Goodra with Gliscor (Impish and full defense), and switch between them depending on the attack. And if there is a monster like Scarfchomp I let Goodra die to it so Gooey helps my team handle with the monster later.
But I don't know. I'm new at competitive.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
i think gooey is awesome sometimes, but i'm the only one who uses it with sap sipper? it blocks those annoying sporers and hit back with fire blast and has a huge amount of coverage moves. i usually use it with an assault vest with dragon pulse, thunderbolt, fire blast, sludge bomb/muddy water, but i tried using it also like a pure specially defensive pokemon with toxic, protect and two coverage moves and was not that bad.
One of the Goodra sets I run looks a lot like Maxesar 's but personally run dragon pulse over draco meteor, and rotate the coverage moves depending on the team its on. Right now it looks like this:
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Gooey
Modest / 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Dragon Pulse
Thunderbolt
Fire Blast
Ice Beam
The coverage moves and EV's are really up to you though, its ability to switch in and completely wall almost any special attacker is great, and it makes a great death fodder because of gooey if you need to protect a pokemon (good death fodding is an under appreciated skill). Watch out for mixed sets and toxic abusers though
People don't really expect gooey, so it doesn't work like a deterrent anymore though. Luckily with fire blast, ferrothorn is not a threat, and grass type moves barely scratch it
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Gooey
Modest / 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Dragon Pulse
Thunderbolt
Fire Blast
Ice Beam
The coverage moves and EV's are really up to you though, its ability to switch in and completely wall almost any special attacker is great, and it makes a great death fodder because of gooey if you need to protect a pokemon (good death fodding is an under appreciated skill). Watch out for mixed sets and toxic abusers though
People don't really expect gooey, so it doesn't work like a deterrent anymore though. Luckily with fire blast, ferrothorn is not a threat, and grass type moves barely scratch it
I'm surprised when you say that people don't expect gooey because it's his only viable ability imo. The rain sets are atrocious, and sap sipper gives it a trivial immunity and a boost to a stat it shouldn't be utilizing. It may not be outspeeding anything after a gooey activation but the pseudo memento effect has seen some work done.
I would normally shy away from things with arbitrary and boring typing, but I have to say I do like the assault vest set. It hits hard with great coverage, and takes hits with some useful resistances.
I would normally shy away from things with arbitrary and boring typing, but I have to say I do like the assault vest set. It hits hard with great coverage, and takes hits with some useful resistances.
They actually aren't that common, mostly because every grass type in the game is already immune to both, which is why the immunity is trivial.
Also, goodra learns no good physical stab to take advantage of the boost. Dragon Tail has low power and creates variance that may end up in your opponents favor, and outrage is now a liability.
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