Pokémon Greninja

[McGrrr]

Most Greninja don't have HP Fire because its too hard to breed, but you can OHKO them after they U-Turn with HP Fire and they can't OHKO you.

Unfortunately, they switch out after the U-Turn, so you hit something else xD

You should really avoid other Greninja, unless you've scouted Grass Knot (without Life Orb). In which case, you can survive and OHKO with Ice Beam.

 

[LittleTLK]

I'm curious. How many HP Fire Froakies have you encountered on Wifi?! I mean, as far as I know, I'm the ONLY person breeding them on the Wifi subforum, and I've traded a total of 6, because they're a massive pain, and I only agree to super attractive offers.

The VAST majority of Froakies are running 31 speed, FACT.

I wish HP's type was determined by something like personality value or something else other than IVs.

Anywho, I've not run into any Greninja with HP fire on Battle Spot. Most have actually been physical with rockslide, Water Shuriken, ect.

Though I think greninja should run 31 speed IVs and let its teammates worry about things it would hit with HP fire. Most threats I can think of like Ferrothorn, Scisor, and Forretress are better handled by teammates anyway. I think it's more important to let Greninja outspeed a few other threats.

I mean, if you're really worried about it, I suppose it's fine.

 

[VCrowe]

I'm curious. How many HP Fire Froakies have you encountered on Wifi?! I mean, as far as I know, I'm the ONLY person breeding them on the Wifi subforum, and I've traded a total of 6, because they're a massive pain, and I only agree to super attractive offers.

The VAST majority of Froakies are running 31 speed, FACT.

Actually, I'm breeding them myself. And I've also run into quite a few HP Fire Greninja over Battle Spot.

Most Greninja don't have HP Fire because its too hard to breed, but you can OHKO them after they U-Turn with HP Fire and they can't OHKO you.

How would you KO a Greninja after it has U Turned out?

 

[McGrrr]

Actually, I'm breeding them myself.

I see that you don't have it in stock yet. Good luck!

And I've also run into quite a few HP Fire Greninja over Battle Spot.

I call BS, but whatever. Regardless, my point stands. The vast majority of Greninja run 31 speed.

 

[VCrowe]

I see that you don't have it in stock yet. Good luck!



I call BS, but whatever. Regardless, my point stands. The vast majority of Greninja run 31 speed.

At this point in time, I will admit that you are right. But at some time in the future when breeding mechanics and the games RNG are better understood, people will undoubtedly gravitate towards HP Fire for the coverage. It just hits too many targets not to have it, at least in my opinion that is.

 

[Stellar]

This isn't a trade thread. Go to the Wi-Fi forum.

 

[N7 Grimstar]

First of all, I don't get why people are using Life Orb when it's a lead set, you only have two attacks, and you have Protean STAB. And also, I get how Greninja can possibly take some hits, but DO NOT use him defensively. Those defenses pretty much prove it. I also really don't like the idea of Red Card. Red Card is nice on, let's say, something with Sturdy that actually can take any hit. Greninja cannot. My main point is, don't use Protean defensively at all. As for the Hidden Power, the most viable one is Fire. Other ones may be effective, but a bit gimmicky IMO.

So... you're sitting here telling me not to do something that I have experienced working myself? Have you even tried to use Protean to dodge a SE hit? Has anyone arguing that Protean can't be used defensively even tried? Or are you guys just staring at numbers.

I'm not sitting here arguing that Greninja is Ferrothorn, but Protean most DEFINITELY can be used to avoid a OHKO. That's not to say that Greninja is a tank by ANY means. But it CAN be used to take a hit. SOMETIMES THREE. Not acknowledging the fact that you can use something like T. Spikes to setup on your opponent AND take a hit is simply ignoring a possibility.

 

[RedBomberX]

I've been running this set

Greninja @ Life Orb

+252 Sp.A +252 Speed +4 Atk

Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
U-turn
Spikes

It's so funny when they go for an electric move and you turn to a ground type using spikes. Setting up spikes and resisting. Than U-turn out once they start to see whats going on. :)

 

[Magicfire]

So... you're sitting here telling me not to do something that I have experienced working myself? Have you even tried to use Protean to dodge a SE hit? Has anyone arguing that Protean can't be used defensively even tried? Or are you guys just staring at numbers.

I'm not sitting here arguing that Greninja is Ferrothorn, but Protean most DEFINITELY can be used to avoid a OHKO. That's not to say that Greninja is a tank by ANY means. But it CAN be used to take a hit. SOMETIMES THREE. Not acknowledging the fact that you can use something like T. Spikes to setup on your opponent AND take a hit is simply ignoring a possibility.

Fine. Whatever. Have fun using your Greninja as a tank.

I know that Protean can be used to avoid OHKOes, but Defensively means that you sit there and take a few hits and do what a defensive mon does. Greninja has crap defenses, so the better option is to take advantage of its decent Special Attack and attack the opponent. If it is a lead set, then the best item might be Focus Sash, and if you change type then you might set three layers up. All other sets look like better options now with the buff to hazard removing moves and all.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

I'm not sitting here arguing that Greninja is Ferrothorn, but Protean most DEFINITELY can be used to avoid a OHKO. That's not to say that Greninja is a tank by ANY means. But it CAN be used to take a hit. SOMETIMES THREE. Not acknowledging the fact that you can use something like T. Spikes to setup on your opponent AND take a hit is simply ignoring a possibility.

The problem with your argument is that avoiding an OHKO does not make Greninja "defensive." It has no reliable recovery and filling a set with ~40 BP priority moves accomplishes nothing if they barely damage a foe. Shadow Sneak and Water Shuriken don't even KO most popular foes weak to them when going all-out offensively.

For example, "defensively" Shadow Sneaking a Venusaur will still result in a 2HKO via Giga Drain as it recovers off the pathetic damage. At that point, why not just run Acrobatics (or Ice Beam) and OHKO-2HKO it anyway while resisting Giga Drain (regarding Acrobatics).

In conclusion, your "defensive Greninja" is SUPER situational and outclassed by non-priority-centered attacker sets. Greninja is not the center of the metagame. If it faints, you don't like automatically lose. I'm not trying to make you give up your playstyle, but just know that there are other ways of using Protean that may help you gain a few additional wins.

 

[Banryu]

Possibly a dumb question, but would Mat Block protect Greninja from damage inflicted by allies in multibattles? Say, for example, Greninja used Mat Block and then his partner used Earthquake or Explosion.

I actually tested this in-game earlier today. Mat Block does indeed protect from friendly-fire moves like Earthquake, however, it doesn't have increased priority like Protect and can only be used the first turn that that Pokemon comes in, like Fake Out.

 

[N7 Grimstar]

Guys, I said I'm not playing Greninja as a Ferrothorn. I'm also not playing him as a dedicated sweeper, I'm trying an anti-lead set. In which case using Protean defensively has it's benefits. That's that.

 

[Momochuu]

when i was talking about the greninja thing i meant like literally 1 on 1. it came down to my greninja and another one on one the other day and i killed him with HP fire when he turned himself into a bug type.

 

[Punchshroom]

Guys, I said I'm not playing Greninja as a Ferrothorn. I'm also not playing him as a dedicated sweeper, I'm trying an anti-lead set. In which case using Protean defensively has it's benefits. That's that.

Not entirely sure about Taunt on such a frail guy like Greninja. What kind of moves does Taunt stop that justifies its place over a coverage move (namely Extrasensory to hit Poisons or HP Fire to hit Steels) to threaten more stuff which allows it to 'anti-lead' better, or U-turn to pivot into stuff that threatens Poison-types like Tentacruel or Mega-Venusaur which soaks up Toxic Spikes & wastes your efforts?

 

[N7 Grimstar]

Not entirely sure about Taunt on such a frail guy like Greninja. What kind of moves does Taunt stop that justifies its place over a coverage move (namely Extrasensory to hit Poisons or HP Fire to hit Steels) to threaten more stuff which allows it to 'anti-lead' better, or U-turn to pivot into stuff that threatens Poison-types like Tentacruel or Mega-Venusaur which soaks up Toxic Spikes & wastes your efforts?

I've been liking just taunting something like Smeargle, Ferrothorn, Galvantula, etc. and getting up a free layer of t. spikes, or switching to something to setup. It's not really a matter of prevention as much as giving myself breathing room. Plus Protean can net some KO's if you run a Timid Life Orb Hydro/Ice Beam.

I'm not really sure who to compare it to as far as anti-leads go, but I'd say Greninja is pretty successful at it.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

Guys, I said I'm not playing Greninja as a Ferrothorn. I'm also not playing him as a dedicated sweeper, I'm trying an anti-lead set. In which case using Protean defensively has it's benefits. That's that.

I know. Hopefully I didn't sound like I was bashing, but I still just don't feel like Greninja can pull off a dedicated anti-lead set well. Firstly, once the metagame settles down, Smeargle will drop. Secondly, taunting a Glavantula is a double edge sword. I've seen some people running taunt just to stop Sticky Web, but if this becomes more common, smart Galvantula players will just Bug Buzz on the first turn and set up Sticky Web later. In this event, (to me) it makes more sense to just use Hydro Pump, which CAN OHKO 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula (106.04-125.26%). Lastly, with defog's buff, it seems pointless to have either a dedicated anti-lead or a dedicated lead pokemon. But if this set works for you, then feel free to ignore me and I am sorry if I was being rude.

 

[N7 Grimstar]

I know. Hopefully I didn't sound like I was bashing, but I still just don't feel like Greninja can pull off a dedicated anti-lead set well. Firstly, once the metagame settles down, Smeargle will drop. Secondly, taunting a Glavantula is a double edge sword. I've seen some people running taunt just to stop Sticky Web, but if this becomes more common, smart Galvantula players will just Bug Buzz on the first turn and set up Sticky Web later. In this event, (to me) it makes more sense to just use Hydro Pump, which CAN OHKO 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula (106.04-125.26%). Lastly, with defog's buff, it seems pointless to have either a dedicated anti-lead or a dedicated lead pokemon. But if this set works for you, then feel free to ignore me and I am sorry if I was being rude.

Nah it's all good, I've been in a pretty irritated mood tonight myself, so I'm sure I came across more rash than I should have.

A lot of the times I do tend to want to screw with my opponent so much that I miss the fact I could OHKO like in the case of Galvantula. But a lot of the time they run Focus Sash, so I prefer to prevent Sticky Web entirely. But then Bug Buzz, so yeah, it really comes down to a guessing game.

There is also the fact that he is one of the fastest Taunt and T.Spikes users in the game. I feel for that reason alone he makes as effective of a lead as Aerodactyl would at least.

 

[kellekion]

Wow this thread is long soo i havent read all the post but i have been using a lead gimmicky greninja set and its working

Greninja Focus sash

+252 Atk +252 Speed +4 HP
Shadow Sneak
Aerial Ace/Acrobatics
U-turn
Spikes

It has been said before but with this set you can set up and dodge atts like earthquake high jump kick and thunderbolt. even though it doesnt look like much since its SP.A is better but this is a really gimmickyand it works because almost no one sees it coming. it also can be used in doubles (for poeple who like to play those) you can avoid every att coming from you partner by just changing types.
if you guys have some tips to improve this set i would love to hear them.

 

[Stitch]

Speed calculations for level 50.
31 IV +Speed Nature 240 EV -> 189.2 -> 189
31 IV +Speed Nature 244 EV -> 190.3 -> 190
30 IV +Speed Nature 240 EV -> 189.2 -> 189
30 IV +Speed Nature 244 EV -> 189.2 -> 189
30 IV +Speed Nature 248 EV -> 190.3 -> 190

So at level 50 to out-speed max-speed base 120 Pokemon (189 speed) , you will need 244 EV with a 31 IV and 248 EV with a 30 IV.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Wow this thread is long soo i havent read all the post but i have been using a lead gimmicky greninja set and its working

Greninja Focus sash

+252 Atk +252 Speed +4 HP
Shadow Sneak
Aerial Ace/Acrobatics
U-turn
Spikes

It has been said before but with this set you can set up and dodge atts like earthquake high jump kick and thunderbolt. even though it doesnt look like much since its SP.A is better but this is a really gimmickyand it works because almost no one sees it coming. it also can be used in doubles (for poeple who like to play those) you can avoid every att coming from you partner by just changing types.
if you guys have some tips to improve this set i would love to hear them.

Unless you trick a chesnaught or Breloom to come in, I dont see the point of using aerial ace. Its an interesting mind game, but how many pokemon are going to stay in on greninja that would choose to use earthquake anyway? Personally, I would run rock slide in order to get some extra coverage and help you take resisted hits from the common u-turn. You could also run night slash if you wanted another immunity.

 

[Medeus]

I'm extremely new to competitive Pokemon, so there's a chance that it won't work, but there's a set idea I wanted to try out.

Greninja@Weakness Policy
Protean
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spd
Modest/Timid

Surf
Ice Beam
Dark Pulse
Substitute

I'd heard about Substitute sweepers and wanted to know if Greninja would make a decent one if you used Protean to intentionally get hit by a super-effective attack to trigger the policy then sweep. However, I wanted to know if the chances of Greninja being OHKOed while trying to set up on account of its horrible defenses and what I can only assume is an inability to really switch into anything was too great for this set to work.

 

[Punchshroom]

It should be obvious at this point that using Protean as a defensive measure is merely a bonus, and should never be the focal point of any set. And then there are those Greninja sets who have no moves exceeding 70 BP, throwing away its great offensive potential and leaving it laughably weak as a result.

That said, while I bashed basically every defensively-inclined Greninja set, Protean combined with its Speed does make it a tad tricky to play against. Going for an unSTABed coverage move on Greninja (such as Thunderbolt) or a weaker attack from a wall (Seed Bomb Gourgeist or Play Rough Klefki) may fail to KO it as it switches typing, allowing it to get a free hit off on you.

These are the types of moves you'll commonly see Greninja carry:
Water (Hydro Pump)
Dark (Dark Pulse, Night Slash)
Bug (U-Turn, but you cannot hit it without Pursuit anyway)
Ice (Ice Beam)
Grass (Grass Knot)
Ground (Spikes)
Psychic (Extrasensory)
Hidden Power (Fire or Electric seem to be most common)

...and then there are rarities / gimmicks like:
Poison (Toxic Spikes)
Ghost (Shadow Sneak)
Flying (Acrobatics)

Between this, it can be tricky to OHKO Greninja effectively. Generally the best kind of attacks that work consistently on Greninja are those with good neutrality against the majority of types Greninja can switch into, like Dragon, Fairy, Bug, Flying, Grass (Grass is notorious for not being that strong), and even Poison.

Even then, this can change depending on your response to Greninja as well: for example, a Goodra that has Thunderbolt is up against a Greninja that hasn't attacked, but Goodra is actually better off going for Fire Blast to hit Greninja as it turns into a Ice-type while going for Ice Beam, or just going for the Dragon move in case Greninja decides to pussy out. Keep Greninja's type-changing in mind; even if it usually only gives Greninja 1-2 more turns of survival (if played right), that may be enough for it to do extra damage to your team when it could've been avoided.

 

[VCrowe]

Its obvious that Protean type changing can be used to avoid OHKO's and sometimes 2HKO's, however, I agree that it should never be your main point to use Protean. Protean should always be used for the offensive capabilities, an just let the type changing to avoid KO's remain a nice little bonus.

Wait, are you talking to me? Because Substitute was to prevent KOs. Protean was to help trigger the policy and make Ice Beam STAB.

If you are referring to this post, then no, I was just speaking in general that IMO, Protean should always be used offensively. However, if you've managed to find a set that can efficiently use Protean defensively, then more power too you :)

I just don't think it's using the ninja frog to his fullest when there are bulkier things available that can be brought in via U Turn.

 

[Olly]

What sort of OHKO's or 2 hit KO's are missed by running Surf over Hydro Pump?

I am thinking of running an all out attack set of something like:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid Nature
4 HP/252 SPA/252 SPE
Surf
Ice Beam
Grass Knot
Hidden Power Fire

Am I missing something by running Surf over Hydro Pump?

Ps. Is there any way to get Hidden Power Fire without lowering your speed stat? With all Hidden Power's now 60 BP I figured there might be a way.

 

[Aoi_IX]

I'm testing out a physical sweeper build, since its phys attack is just slightly lower than his special one. Besides, he has access to Power-up Punch, which is his only "increase stats" move, it is like a Howl but with 60 base attack (including STAB), not bad at all.

Greninja @ Flying Gem
Protean/Jolly Nature
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Rock Slide
Acrobatics
Power-up Punch
Shadow Sneak

I know, I know. No WATER of DARK moves?? But well, why would I, after all, greninja is the type he wants to be, so is not attained to have certain attacks for "stab"... they all have stab. Waterfall may have 5 more attack that Rock Slide, but rock has more super effective targets than water. This is why I choosed each attack:
- Rock Slide: A lot of coverage, it kills flyers, fire, ice and bugs. Is a nice way to OHKO Talonflame, which is running rampant online. I'd have prefered Stone Edge, but too bad he doesn't learn it.
- Acrobatics: The best move in the entire set. Flying Gem will allow for some OHKO, and after that is still a really strong move. Is the one I abuse the most for serious damage.
- Power-up Punch: Its only way to increase stats. Two of them will make him ready to sweep a lot. Not sure if this can OHKO Lucario (I guess it will if it is not mega), but at least you will deal really severe damage against it, and it can 2HKO anything that you're super effective against. Using this as a revenge-killing grants free attack for the next combat.
- Shadow Sneak: Revenge-kill move if the opponent has priority, or if you predict a fighting move going against you, you can get a free hit, and your opponent will deal none to you. Having both ghost and fighting in the same build allows for an extra power-up punch to increase more your attack while playing mindgames with your opponent.

That's it, I want a competitive set, but also I feel this one feels the most ninja out there (just the added value). That is, two nice attacking moves, and two utility ones. I'm still not sold on the special attacker one, because he is missing the buffs that a physical sweeper can give.