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GSC In-Game Tiers Revamp - Closed, I'll be starting this up again after I figure some stuff out

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Ender, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. Ender

    Ender Comfortably Numb
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Sorry for the wait guys, I had finals and I was moving out of my dorm, but I'm done so I'll be updating this more frequently. Thanks for your patience.

    I went ahead and split mid.

    I personally think that Geodude should remain in High because of its extreme usability in the early game, it's usefulness in the Team Rocket segment, the fact that it doesn't really "suck" at any point in the game, and although it tapers in power a bit, it doesn't become completely ineffectual thanks to being able to blow itself up.

    I can possibly see a case for Spearow in High, but the major problem I have with it is its movepool. Peck and Fury Attack are going to become underpowered very quickly and after that all it gets are Drill Peck at 37 (So probably close to Blackthorn) and Fly in Cianwood. I feel like Pokemon in High have to maintain some semblance of utility throughout the game, an aspect in which Spearow falls short.

    I have no problem with moving Tentacool to Upper Mid so I did that.

    I don't know how well Cubone does in Crystal, but I agree that it should be above Bottom based on increased availability. I put it in Lower Mid as a placeholder, but that's definitely subject to debate.

    Wobbuffett probably won't change much, so we can just add an availability note for Crystal when we're writing it up rather than splitting it into two sections.

    I also changed Skarmory to (SC) and Teddiursa to (G)


    Top:
    Abra
    Totodile
    Lugia (S)
    Ho-Oh (G)
    Suicune (C)
    Magmar (GS)

    High:
    Red Gyarados
    Geodude
    Cyndaquil
    Miltank
    Vaporeon (C)
    Lapras
    Mareep (GS)
    Nidoran M
    Nidoran F

    Upper Mid:
    Tauros
    Spearow
    Sudowoodo
    Chinchou
    Gastly (Trade)
    Psyduck
    Poliwag
    Growlithe (C)
    Teddiursa (C)
    Tentacool
    Chickorita
    Jynx
    Wooper

    Lower Mid:
    Scyther
    Scizor
    Onix (Trade)
    Phanpy (C)
    Skarmory (SC)
    Drowzee
    Rattata
    Cubone (C)

    Low:
    Onix (No Trade)
    Pidgey
    Hoothoot (potential move to bottom)
    Krabby
    Sentret
    Swinub
    Dratini
    Pinsir
    Gastly (No Trade)
    Lugia (GC)
    Ho-Oh (S)
    Magikarp

    Bottom:
    Houndour
    Ho-Oh (C)
    Delibird
    Ditto
    Hoppip
    Ledyba
    Misdreavus
    Murkrow
    Shuckle
    Slugma
    Smeargle
    Togepi
    Unown
    Spinarak
    Caterpie
    Weedle
    Gligar
    Sneasel
    Electabuzz
    Cubone
    Kangaskhan
    Mr. Mime
    Porygon
    Grimer
    Larvitar
    Chansey
    Aerodactyl
    Diglett
    Pikachu
    Clefairy
    Raikou
    Entei
    Suicune (GS)
    Magmar (C)
    Teddiursa (G)
  2. Lestrade

    Lestrade

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Let's talk elekid. There is maybe one available in Crystal at goldenrod. It's top tier all the way if you get it (access to the punches immediately), but the odds are slim. Deserves a mention at best.
  3. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Elekid would be High if it was a fixed gift rather than an egg (because catching up in level still takes time and until the L30 your offence is nothing spectacular, in spite of the great coverage, while paper durability really bites when you have to take a hit). Knowing the Odd Egg specifics though, it's probably Low since it's better than the other egglets.

    Also proposing the following changes based on the assumption that the differences between the Pokemon are insufficient to warrant a tier gap, and some more:

    - Red Gyarados, Geodude, Cyndaquil up to Top
    - the remainder of High and whole of Upper Mid merged (Lower Mid can be titled simply Mid)
    - Chikorita and Scyther swap their places

    Cubone actually learns very good STAB moves by level-up. I think this is kinda cool because poisons are very common and also problematic (i.e. those exploding Koffings and Weezings). He does well even without the Thick Club. Upper Mid I think?
  4. Progeusz

    Progeusz

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2009
    Messages:
    122
    Yeah, Cyndaquil should be as high as Totodile. Great stats distribution and Thunderpunch at L36 to take on Water types, it's fast and hits hard. You might complain about Quilava being stuck with Ember but really, it's enough, it's not like you meet even a single strong Pokémon between Miltank and Kingdra, STAB Ember is enough for Rattatas or Koffings. There's also Headbutt for physically frail opponents or flinch chance. Totodile has stronger Headbutt but he's slower so he won't flinch as often, it evens out. Remeber, Cyndaquil only needs two replenishable, extremely cheap TMs, it's hard to consider that a cost (it's also possible to buy Charcoal in Azalea). Meanwhile Totodile wants valuable Earthquake to fully abuse its best stat. There is Return but it can't be super effective and has no STAB.
    Speed is very important in-game, if run is supposed to be efficient you shouldn't use Pokémon Center too much. Well, there's also Quick Attack to KO those pesky Rattatas without losing HP.

    When it comes to important battles both are pretty even - Cynda sweeps Bugsy, Jasmine (it survives single Rock Throw) and Pryce (no Water or Ground moves) while Toto is better vs Whitney (no weakness to Rollout), Morty (Bite), Chuck (better chances vs Poliwrath), Clair but can't really sweep either of them.
    Cynda is better vs Will and Koga but more susceptible to Bruno's coverage, it's better vs Karen but worse vs Lance.

    Geodude sweeps everything on its path until Pryce with sole exception of Poliwrath and maybe some Rockets' Glooms. Magnitude is quite reliable attack, chance of 4 is very low and even 5 can KO. 7 is the most often roll and it's better than many STABs of other Pokémon. Anyway, it can easily survive opponent's attack if Magnitude rolls low. Unfortunately it has quite a bit of problems in E4 so I'd say tradeless is just High, only allowing Golem into top, that boost in stats helps a lot, Golem can survive more special attacks. Earthquake at 41 is great, you don't need to use the TM.

    I won't say much about Gyara because I usually boxed it/used as HM Slave.

    Chikorita in Upper-mid? It can't KO anything. It's physically slightly weaker than Cyndaquil and specially only slightly stronger than Feraligatr. What's more, it has no moves. Sure, early Razor Leaf seems nice but not when it can't help you vs Bellsprout Tower, first or second Gym. It has no business in Ghost Gym either. Rest of gyms are battles of endurance, not something we look for in efficient run. It has to rely on normal attacks vs Rockets as well. It doesn't even learn Sleep Powder which is a norm for Grass types.

    Edit: Scratch that, we're talking about Gen II after all, it's strong enough.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  5. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
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    312
    I do think Totodile is a better choice than Cyndaquil; it just appears that Cyndaquil is too similar to Magmar to be in a different tier (exists earlygame, poorer midgame, somewhat better endgame though without Flamethrower for the most part).

    Totodile functions just fine without Earthquake and functions far better than Quilava for a longer period of time. Early Surf is no joke.

    I don't see how Typhlosion is much/any better for Will or Karen.

    Steelix and Poliwrath are mons that could you trouble; though most teams should have something that can trivialise Steelix (any water type basically). Totodile's big midgame is advantage is having Surf when Cyndaquil is stuck with Ember and having Ice Punch (even if it somehow isn't Croconaw by the time you reach Goldenrod) when Cyndaquil waits for his Thunderpunch until the final evolution.

    The funny thing about Graveler is that Rock Throw/Strength/Magnitude hitting neutrally OHKO plenty of stuff and the level difference even makes him outspeed all the Zubats and Rattatas for a while. Golem would do even better I'm sure.
  6. Progeusz

    Progeusz

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    Typhlosion outspeeds and hits everything on Will's team super effectively without any problems (Slowbro has no Surf). Typhlosion easily KOs Karen's Vileplume and fears nothing from it unlike Feraligatr, both kill Houndoom getting hit just once.
  7. FrostFire

    FrostFire

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
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    I don't necessarily agree, though more based on the grounds that they're difficult to compare, being different types. What I mean by this, is that - although Totodile is excellent - it's also a water type, and good in-game water types are pretty abundant in GSC. However, good fire-types are not - in fact, if you're playing Crystal version, Cynda is the best fire type that you 'encounter' for a long time - IIRC, in all of Johto you can only get Growlithe, and Flareon if you can nab a Fire Stone from that schoolboy who may or may not call you. So in some ways, choosing Cyndaquil is almost a 'more' efficient run, because you'll be able to find decent water types anyway, but fires not so much.

    That's all kind of semantics though, and it doesn't directly compare their actual power or anything. Make of it what you will.
  8. x42bn6

    x42bn6

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    I think Totodile is better if you are soloing the game, as it is one of the few that can solo even "by accident". While it doesn't exactly "beat" much with its typing, not as much as Cyndaquil, pretty much nothing can hit it super-effectively in Johto (as long as you teach it Dig to take on Jasmine's Magnemites, in which case it outspeeds and OHKOs easily).

    On the other hand, Typhlosion is great offensively: It has a great Special Attack stat, better than Feraligatr, and is quicker. There are some things it might want to avoid, such as Water types and caves, but for anything it should be facing, it is arguably more brutal than Feraligatr.

    In other words, Totodile is "safer" and more "reliable" than Cyndaquil, but Cyndaquil is a lot more "aggressive" to make up for it.

    On the RBY in-game tiers article, there is this quote:

    So in this sense, Cyndaquil would be rated higher, because a solo-Totodile run isn't that great, by this metric.

    That said, if you want a Fire move, in GS, Ampharos learns Fire Punch off a decent Special Attack stat, and Ampharos is cool anyway, so that is also an option. In Crystal... Urgh. I agree the Fire types are fairly underwhelming at best otherwise, but the main difference is that underwhelming Water types (Poliwag, Tentacool, etc.) all get Surf. Surf makes any underwhelming Water type look many times better. Flamethrower, however, isn't a HM, nor is it available early-on.

    Personally, though, I think they're on par with each other.
  9. Temporaryanonymous

    Temporaryanonymous
    is a Battle Server Moderator

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    Hi everyone. Sorry to be popping out of nowhere, but I came here once I saw RBY's in game tiers be uploaded to smogon. I always enjoyed reading in game tiers, and Gold/Silver was my childhood and the games I've spent the most time on, so I would really love to contribute to this project.

    I apologize for not reading all the posts before mine, but these are how I think the tiers are as they are in my mind.

    top (open)
    Abra [Get it early, very great stats, great type, great coverage]
    Cyndaquil [Get it early, great stats, great type, great moves]
    Espeon [Takes a bit of work, but very great stats, and bite+psychic give insane coverage]
    Ho-oh (G) [Insane stats and sacred fire rips through nearly everything]
    Lugia (S) [Insane stats and aeroblast rips through nearly everything]
    Mareep (GS) [Get it early, decent stats, decent moves]
    Suicune (C) [Not as good as Ho-oh or Lugia, but still very good stats and moveset]


    high (open)
    Gastly [Very good stats, decent defensive typing, need some TMs though]
    Growlithe (G) [Decent stats, decent moveset]
    Jolteon [Great stats, but no thunderbolt hurts]
    Lapras [Takes some effort to get, but great stats and very good move coverage]
    Machop [Decent stats, exp boosting from trade, and decent attacks]
    Magikarp (Gyarados) [Comes easily if you count the red gyarados, great stats, good moveset]
    Miltank [Good stats and decent moveset]
    Nidoran (f) [Comes early enough to have a fast evolution with great stats]
    Nidoran (m) [Same as Nidoran (f)]
    Phanpy (C) [Comes very early, though a bit hard to catch. Learns eq naturally and good stats]
    Poliwag [Comes pretty easily, has decent stats and movepool]
    Scizor [Very good atk and def, but not much STAB]
    Scyther [Can be caught pretty early, has good atk and spe, and wing attack STAB is decent]
    Shellder [Very good stats and can be caught midgame]
    Staryu [Very good stats and moves and can be caught midgame]
    Tauros [Good stats and decent moveset]
    Teddiursa (C) [Pretty much the same as Phanpy]
    Totodile [Evolves early and has good stats and movepool]
    Vaporeon [Great stats, and good coverage even without TMs]
    Wooper [Great early catch, learns EQ naturally, and good typing]


    midhigh (open)
    Chichou [Good typing, but stats and moves are lackluster. Can be caught early and STAB is good though]
    Geodude [Caught early, decent stats and moves, but loses steam later on]
    Heracross [Good stats, but moves are a bit shallow]
    Koffing [Decent stats, shallow movepool though]
    Magnemite [Good defensive typing, good stats, midgame]
    Slowpoke [Evolves into a good pokemon with good typing and stats except for speed]
    Tangela [Decent stats and okay moves]
    Tentacool [Decent stats and okay moves]


    mid (open)
    Chikorita [Has a hard time getting by, not enough offense]
    Cubone (C) [Decent stats/move and early enough to be worth it]
    Doduo [comes too late to be worth it, even if it is a good bird]
    Dratini [Can get one early in GS, or get one with espeed in C. Has good stats upon evolution and good moves, but it needs some pateint levelling]
    Drowzee [Can be caught quite easily, and it has decent stats]
    Exeggcute [Can be caught early on, and has great stats upon evolution, though TMs might be needed]
    Goldeen [Comes midgame without spectacular moves or stats]
    Hitmonchan [Comes too late and stats/moves aren't that good]
    Hitmonlee [Same as above]
    Htimontop [Same as above]
    Jynx [Comes a bit late unless you got it from the egg in crystal. Good stats but it can't naturally learn psychic unless raised from Smoochum]
    Krabby [Decent HM slave, okay stats, okay coverage. Can be caught quite early]
    Magmar (GS) [Can be caught quite early, and has decent moves and stats]
    Mankey (G) [Decent moves/stats]
    Mantine (G) [Good spD bulk, even if it has bad typing. Gets all right move coverage]
    Pinsir [Good attack, but moves are lacking]
    Remoraid [Good move coverage, but stats aren't too appealing]
    Seel [Caught quite late, stats aren't appealing, but it does have nice water/ice coverage moves]
    Sentret [Caught early game, okay stats, wide movepool and great HM slave]
    Skarmory [Good defensive typing, but comes too late and attack isn't amazing]
    Spearow [Good early, decent stats, but shallow movepool]
    Steelix [Good stats, but lacking attack, and requires a trade]
    Sudowoodo [Caught early, okay stats, okay movepools for its time]
    Voltorb [Decent stats, but movepool is pretty shallow. Easy trade though]
    Vulpix (SC) [Decent stats and learns flamethrower naturally
    Zubat [Easily caught, decent stats, but no good attacking moves]


    midlow (open)
    Bellsprout [Extremely shallow movepool]
    Caterpie [Too low stats and shallow movepool]
    Flareon [Too shallow movepool]
    Girafarig [It's just so average]
    Hoothoot [Not very good offense]
    Hoppip [Lack of attacks and moves]
    Marill [Midgame without good stats or moves]
    Meowth [Disappointing stats and coverage]
    Oddish [Lack of good attacks]
    Onix [Stats are disappointing, and its attacks are pathetic]
    Paras [Gets spore, but bad stats/moves]
    Ponyta [Comes way too late to be useful]
    Psyduck [Stats and movepool are just average]
    Rattata [Quickly outlives usefulness]
    Rhyhorn [Appears to late to be useful, no good STAB moves, and 2 4x weaknesses]
    Sadnshrew [No good ground STAB without TMs]
    Snorlax [Great stats and wide movepool, but comes too late]
    Spinerak (G) [Pretty average stats and moves]
    Sunkern [Requires stone, and really shallow movepool]
    Swinub [Stats as well as attacks aren't too appealing]
    Umbreon [Not very good offense, requires tame evo]
    Venonat [Big movepool, but disappointing stats]
    Weedle [Too low stats and shallow movepool]
    Pidgey [Not as good as the other birds, though still better than Hoothoot]


    low (open)
    Aerodactyl [Requires a trade, and comes too late]
    Aipom [Disappointing stats and movepool]
    Corsola [Disappointing stats and movepool]
    Ekans [Lacks good stats or attacks]
    Electabuzz [Comes too late to be useful. If hatched in egg, it would be good]
    Entei [Too hard to track down to be worth it]
    Farfetch'd [Disappointing moves and stats]
    Gligar (G) [Comes too late without very good stats or moves]
    Ho-oh (SC) [Comes too late to be very useful]
    Horsea [Comes too late, requires trade for full evo, and disappointing moves]
    Ledyba (S) [Very weak stats and moves]
    Lickitung [Disappointing movepool and stats for the time you get it]
    Lugia (G) [Comes too late to be very useful]
    Magmar (C) [Comes way too late to be even worth it unless hatched]
    Natu [Caught midgame without much stats or moves to show for it]
    Phanpy (S) [Comes too late]
    Pineco [Not enough offense]
    Porygon [Comes too late]
    Raikou [Too hard to track down to be worth it]
    Smeargle [Low stats, hard to use]
    Stantler [So forgettable]
    Suicune (GS) [Same as Raikou and Entei]
    Teddiursa (G) [Comes too late]
    Togepi [Disappointing stats and movepool]


    bottom (open)
    Delibird [One move, bad stats]
    Diglett [Way too late]
    Chansey [Very late and hard to catch, no offense]
    Cleffairy [Comes way too late unless hatched, and even then, it's pretty weak]
    Cubone (GS) [Way too late]
    Ditto [Only good for breeding]
    Dunsparce [Swarm, low stats, bad moves]
    Houndour [Way too late]
    Jigglypuff [Same as Cleffairy]
    Kangaskhan [Way too late]
    Larvitar [Comes at the end of the game]
    Misdreavus [Comes at the end of the game]
    Pikachu [Same as Jigglypuff and Cleffairy]
    Qwilfish [Swarm, inferior Tentacool]
    Shuckle [Hard to find, very bad attacking stats, and very shallow moves]
    Slugma [Way too late]
    Sneasel [Way too late to be useful]
    Snubull [Swarm pokemon]
    Unown [Worst pokemon]
    Wobbuffet [Terrible in-game]
    Yanma [Swarm pokemon, bad stats and bad moves]


    none (open)
    Articuno
    Bulbasaur
    Celebii
    Charmander
    Kabuto
    Mew
    Mewtwo
    Moltres
    Omanyte
    Squirtle
    Zapdos


    Adding to the discussion, I say Cyndaquil is a better choice than Totodile since it gives you an immediate advantage early game (burning bugs), and Totodile can be easily swapped with the red Gyarados later. Cyndaquil is harder to replace since Flareon, Ninetales, and Arcanine all require a fire stone, and Magmar really is your only other choice unless you're playing crystal.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  10. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    the utility of burning bugs isn't say very pressing (your biggest threat is scyther and geodude cheeses scyther a lot more than cyndaquil cheesing him). personally i'd rather go with totodile + geodude instead of cyndaquil + something because you're still going to end up beating everything earlygame (geodude's presence is really big earlygame) and the crippling grass weakness isn't that big once you realise that your only threat for pretty much the entire game is like, bayleef (and erika but it's pretty much a given that you should have some sort of ice move by now + erika is a joke like always anyway).

    espeon being top doesn't really click to me: it doesn't really do much other than be a liability for like 10+ levels or so (ideally you want it unevolved until 30 for bite and evolve by 36 for psybeam). happiness evolution is a lot of a better deal than the other eeveelutions, but top? really, i think high is good enough.

    tradechop has shit ivs afaik, while still usable i'd probably just use a normal machoke or something. plus fighting types suck. (applies to just about every fighting-type on the list, normal/fighting coverage leaves you helpless against ghosts and then you get jokers like firing ice punches off a 40~ spA aka hitmonchan)

    does jolteon get any special moves for his spA? because off the top of my head i don't remember such (other than bite -_-") and jolteon's not exactly high tier material without usable stab. plus it's a bitch even obtaining a thunderstone...

    dratini can drage nuke earlygame but the exp curve sucks as all hell. espeed comes so horribly underlevelled...

    crystal phanpy doesn't seem good in high imo, since it really lacks teddy's power (haven't used it though, so i cant say much about it, but as good as teddy? uh...)

    gs magmar in mid? uh he's basically typhlosion-lite that does the exact same thing, and that warrants a 2-tier difference?

    will probably take a more thorough look, but these are some of the things that really stand out imo...
  11. x42bn6

    x42bn6

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
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    38
    Abra and Ampharos can learn Fire Punch as well, which is an alternative to a Fire type. For in-game purposes, Kadabra hits about as hard as many Fire types anyway with it, even without STAB.
  12. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
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    stab plays a much bigger role iirc, magmar and typhlosion are likely to have stronger fire punches (and other fire-types either can't learn the move (everything), or doesn't exist in the game (charizard)). cant be bothered to calc, but kad and zam's statistical leads over mag and typh aren't that noticeable in-game, and mag/typh's stab wins out overall. kad getting fire punch is still helpful though, as his fire punch hits harder than just about every other mook out there that gets the move.

    ampharos learning fire punch is easy secondary coverage that is helpful, though honestly ampharos isn't going to use fire punch often (except maybe on oddishes...). it's useful, but not /too/ useful.
  13. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
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    Fire Punch is good for Magnemites, Steelix and Piloswine. Ampharos is basically a slower Typhlosion that gets his strongest moves a lot earlier.

    Also, lv. 16 Alakazam - 48-53 sp. atk.
    lv. 16 Quilava - 30-35 sp. atk.

    Should be dealing more damage with Fire Punch than Quilava with Ember lol. Eventually Typhlosion is better at Firepunching, but it's not like Alakazam exists solely to use Fire Punch (being able to always OHKO Weezings before they explode is nice, for one).
  14. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Typhlosion should absolutely be top tier in G/S. It is just as capable as soloing the game is Feraligatr. It has a fantastic end game moveset with great stats to back it up (I typically ended up with Flamethrower/Tpunch/EQ/Swift). It matches up very well against the majority of the major Gym leaders, only being at a true disadvantage vs Claire and Whitney to an extent. Solos Will, solos Koga, helps a bit vs Bruno, takes on 3-4 pokes of Karen no problem and is able to 2 shot Gyarados and Charizard with Lance, as well as tanking some Dragonite attacks for healing.

    Imho its a better starter for powering through the game than Totodile, though I know that's not a common opinion.

    Should absolutely be top tier though.
  15. Temporaryanonymous

    Temporaryanonymous
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    Thanks a lot for the reply! I probably made a few errors while I was doing it, so thank you very much for taking the time to look at what I posted!
    True, but Cyndaquil has the benefit of racking up very early quick experience by burning through the sprout tower and any grass/bugs that appear early game. It also gets nearly unresisted STAB running off the highest spA and spe of the other starters. When I used Totodile I usually used Pidgey or Spearow to help pick off grass types that might be annoying.

    You're probably right, and I might be talking a bit from personal bias. It does take some babying Eevee and some time/exp needs to be put into it, but I think the effort is well worth it. Espeon has the highest special attack (not including trade evos, but even then, it ties with Gengar) and blistering speed. With only other psychics and steels resisting psychic, Espeon can rip through the game with psybeam, and it has bite for other psychics. Psychic/dark grants great coverage and it beats Morty, Chuck, Team Rocket, Will, Koga, and Bruno easily.

    Really? I thought IVs in in-game trades prior to gen 3 had random IVs. I do know that the odd egg from goldenrod has the worst possible IVs, but I'm not sure about the traded Machop. Even then, it's great because of how early you get it, right before Whitney, and you also can start using the decently powerful karate chop right away. While fighting/normal coverage leads a bit to be desired, the Machop family is a great way to bust down everything not ghost with its powerful attacks, and with good TMs in gen 2 like return and earthquake, they're even better (although you'll need a trade).

    You're probably right. Jolteon is probably in mid or midlow because of the fact that thunderbolt isn't a TM (and only available after the E4 in crystal). Even then, unless you're playing crystal or have another game, nearly all stone evos are midlow tier at best because of when you get stones.

    Yup. Dratini is only sort of viable in gold and silver due to goldenrod game corner, but it costs a lot, and out of dragon rage, it doesn't have much. In crystal, it gets espeed, but it's very low leveled. The only reason it has a redeeming factor is that it's probably the earliest psuedo legendary prevo in any game.

    Well Donphan has slightly less attack than its counterpart, but it comes with the benefit of coming a few routes earlier and evolving 5 levels earlier. Donphan also learns earthquake naturally, and ground is a decent attacking type in game. Ursaring might deal better damage with normal STAB, both of their level up movepools are pretty barren, but it's made up for by their stats.

    Oh you're right. Magmar should be high in GS because of his great stats and wonderful fire punch at level 19.

    Thanks a lot for the feedback! I'll go update it later.
  16. Millky95

    Millky95

    Joined:
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    I like to second this. Did a solo run with Typhlosion and other than a small awkward moment mid-early game when it only had Ember it was a breeze. F-Thrower/TPhunch/EQ/Stregnth was amazing.

    Johto Gyms:
    Falkner - After training through Sprout Tower you could be strong enough to get through. mud-Slap is a pain at times but can still easily sweep
    Bugsy - lol. The cave leading up to the gym is harder than the gym
    Whitney - Bit tough with Rollout from hell but you get dig from the national park (iirc) so you can avoid it KOing you straight away
    Morty - Dig+Ember works. Give it the anti sleep berry in case of Gengar
    Chuck - Should have Flame Wheel for Primeape and ThunderPunch for the frog
    Jasmine - Dig or Flame Wheel
    Pryce - None of his team know water moves so TPunch for Seel and Dewgong whilst Flame Wheel for the Swine
    Clair - Clair is a problem. I used Strength+Thunder Punch for para.

    Elite 4:
    Will - TPhunch for Xatu and Slowbro, Flamewheel/Flamethrower for Jynx and Exeggutor
    Koga - lol. EQ for Muk, TPhunch for the bat and Fire Attack of your choice for Forry
    Bruno - Nothing likes STAB fire attacks or TPhunch. EQ for Onix.
    Karen - EQ for Gengar and Houndoom, TPhunch for Murkrow and Flamethrower for Vileplume. Anything for Umbreon
    Lance - TPhunch takes out Charizard, Aero and Gyarados. The Dragons are a bit touch but Strength and TPhunch should do the trick

    Kanto Gyms:
    Lt. Surge - EQ everything
    Sabrina - Nothing really likes EQ or Flamethrower
    Erika - lol
    Janine - See Koga.
    Misty - TPhunch everything but EQ or Stength Quagiser
    Brock - EQ
    Blane - EQ
    Blue - TPhunch the bird and Gyara, EQ Arcanine, Rhydon and Alakazam while Flamethrower Eggy

    Red - EQ Pikachu, Flamethrower Venasaur, TPunch Charizard and Blastoise, and any attack will help with Snorlax and Espeon

    TPunch and Dig/EQ take care of the Rockets
  17. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
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    yeah the argument in mind was actually for magmar who pretty much gets to fire punch from the get-go. Completely forgot about good ol' quilava and his 22 levels of not-so-awesomeness...

    @TA: sprout tower is a point that i forgot, but yeah you don't really fight that many grass-types in the game (the only notable ones are this, erika, and chikorita if you picked totodile). A pidgey might work as auxillary offense if so required. Geodude is going to steamroll the gym leaders though, and IMO Pidgeotto/scyther/miltank are much bigger threats than bellsprouts.

    the odd egg's IVs are random iirc, but igts have set ivs. the machop in particular has only 3 atk IVs (you can tell the atk IVs are shit simply by looking at the fact that the machop's a girl: though with boosted exp it's not much of a problem)

    the bear's a lot better than don imo, natural eq is one thing but donphan is likely only getting it earliest by lance. teddy gets stab scratch like, instantly, and gets toys like stab headbutt, stab return, and can even ice punch in a pinch. donphan's not getting any of that, and we aren't even mentioning how it's a lot weaker earlygame (teddiursa's attack is pretty good for earlygame standards, phanpy is just so-so).
  18. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
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    The problem with using a Typhlosion solo as a basis for tiering him is that his matchups are a lot more favourable when he gets all the exp. You're definitely not 1HKOing Lance's Gyarados (in a 5-mon run, I failed to do that with a L38 Electabuzz and Buzz actually gets STAB), nor is Typhlosion switching into Aerodactyl easily (probably one of his worst matchups following Poliwrath). How exactly are you facing Red's Blastoise without X items and serious grinding? Even an electric type struggles to deal damage there. I don't get some parts of the analysis too; for example, why would you rely on NVE Thunderpunch to paralyse Dragonairs? A lot of Pokemon can solo the game obviously, maybe a normal-type like Ursaring and Tauros would do it even better than Typhlosion? Doesn't matter really.

    Cyndaquil gets Ember at L12, which is most likely the level he'll be at after you've cleared the Sprout tower. So not much use there aside from resisting Vine Whip and taking time with Tackle.

    The second Rival battle is tough for Croconaw but afterwards you get Ice Punch and your team should also include something who can face Chikorita's evolutions (he's pretty weak anyway).
  19. Millky95

    Millky95

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    Soloing was my most recent time playing G/S but I have finished it in a 4-5 Mon team with Typhlosion before. Obviously if you're building let's say a 4 mon Team you'll have something to help with Nair and Poli. I used TPunch for hax, strength was better eventually. Also I believe in my solo he was only level 70-75 against Red. Only fainted against Snorlax.

    Even when playing with any starter (when having 3-4 mons with me and training evenly) I've never not had a starter below level 10 before going into the tower and around 13 going out.
  20. Temporaryanonymous

    Temporaryanonymous
    is a Battle Server Moderator

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    Well yes, but Cyndaquil can solo the entire tower by himself and that gives him a huge advantage over the other starters. Going through the sprout tower (assuming you do) with Totodile puts you at a disadvantage since you will be either eating vine whips or forced to catch a bird. I suppose you have a point in saying Geodude is good for beating the gym leaders, but I thought the point I was trying to make was that Cyndaquil was better than Totodile.

    Um, no. I think it's the other way around.
    "The DVs of the Pokémon hatched from the Odd Egg will always be either 0/2/10/10/10 if Shiny or all 0 if non-Shiny, regardless of language version. These are the lowest possible values in Generation II for any Shiny or non-Shiny Pokémon, respectively."

    "Prior to HeartGold and SoulSilver, the Trainer conducting the in-game trade will specify a Pokémon they want to trade for. The Pokémon the player receives in the trade will have a fixed OT and nickname; in later games the ID numbers, held items, Natures, and IVs are fixed as well. Each Pokémon, likewise, has a nickname."

    "In Generation II, a Pokémon's gender was determined through its Attack IV. Due to this, unless a Pokémon was a member of an all-female species, such as Nidoran♀ and Smoochum, it could never have a maximized Attack stat, as female Pokémon were given the lower half of the IV range. This also caused the inability for a female Pokémon of a species with a gender ratio of seven males to one female—like the starter Pokémon and Eevee—to be Shiny, due to that also running partly off of the Attack IV. In Generation III this was addressed, with IVs no longer determining either of these, allowing for Pokémon species with two genders to have females with maximized Attack and simultaneously retain its chances of being Shiny."

    In other words, the Machop you get has random IVs, and the only detrimental effect of being female is that it's impossible to have an atk IV of 16 (the max). The odd egg hatches into a pokemon with either 0 in all IVs (most of the time), or 0/2/10/10/10 average IVs if shiny. Source is bulbapedia.

    While Teddy might be better than Donphan, I'd put Donphan in the same tier as it's not that far behind. Donphan and Phanpy lack STAB on normal, but their stats are more than enough to tide them over, especially for that time in the game.
  21. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Cyndaquil isn't as good as Totodile: he's not getting a STAB 95 BP move by Morty, and he doesn't have Totodile's decent coverage options until Typhlosion which is a lot later in the game.

    where did you see this
    edit: nvm
    still IVs aren't very noticeable in-game, so the IGT machop is still usable. personally though i'd just use an ordinary machoke, but fighting-types /are still terrible/ so yeah
    How queer, I'm also quoting Bulbapedia on this. Scroll down to MUSCLE. 12/3/7/6/6.

    Meh, I'm not really going to argue this further, though Phanpy lacking STAB really means that it loses a fair bit of firepower over Teddiursa.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  22. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I'd still go with the IGT Machop because Whitney is his primary moment to shine and since he's not carrying the team after that anyway he might as well just leech off less exp by being a tradee.
  23. Temporaryanonymous

    Temporaryanonymous
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    Ah my bad. Must be my small browser that cut off the right side. But like you said, IVs don't matter in game, so even an IV of 3 on Muscle is fine, espeically considering how you'd need to beat the third gym before you can go catch a Machop. It's probably better to get one early on with trade exp boost and an early chance to level it up.

    As for Totodile, hm. Okay. You've definitely got a point there with surf. I won't deny that with even the Totodile's family's low spA, a 95 STAB attack is very powerful, and I know this first hand from going through silver in a Totodile solo run. While I may not agree Totodile is better than Cyndaquil, I can see very good reasoning for it being top tier: (Ice punch by goldenrod, high atk, surf early), even if I prefer Lapras (gotten around the time of Surf). I think we can both agree that both are very good choices, while we agree to disagree on which is better as that is likely a matter of personal preference. Totodile gets much more powerhouse moves earlier, while Typhlosion requires a bit more exp to be useful, but it's very versatile late-game.
  24. Double Electric

    Double Electric

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    162
    If you don't mind, I could try to attempt to patch up some of the empty spots by providing some filler summaries for a few of the more non-controversial picks. It'd be a shame to see the GSC list to lag far behind all the others. If you guys think these summaries are usable, I could also do a few more later:

    [​IMG]
    Ledyba
    Ledyba is difficult to train and completely worthless before reaching Goldenrod where it learns its only viable moves, Ice Punch and Thunderpunch. Even then, Ledian is so weak that it will still be inferior to just about any other available Pokemon.

    [​IMG]
    Spinarak
    It is extremely difficult to train and use an Ariados. Its only viable attack via level-up is Night Shade, so it has to be taught Dig and/or Return to be even remotely usable in battle. It also has to wait until somewhat late in the game to be taught its best attack by TM, Sludge Bomb. Its speed is also low enough for it to almost always take hits before attacking.

    [​IMG]
    Unown
    It can only use one weak attack with 15 PP that is locked onto one element, and its defenses are poor. Also, it can be deceptively hard to get one with a usable Hidden Power, due to the way the move works.
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
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    312
    Spinarak is pretty decent if caught a little later on when you have some TMs available. There's also a 5% chance of finding an evolved Ariados at night in the Crystal version, and 90 base attack is pretty damn good. Sludge Bomb is available maybe a third into the game, and Ariados just might be one of its best users (besides the mono-poisons). If somebody in the early bug company has offensive option problems, it's Butterfree.

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