Lower Tiers GSC UU?

Isa

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Fire Blast > Recovery. You have to use four moves to reveal your lack of Lovely Kiss if you run Fire Blast over it (maybe three if the last hidden one is EQ), but only one with the recovery moves.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
I would love to implement a beta version of this on my server if we could decide on a stable banlist and stable tier list first ^_^
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
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I don't think the playerbase is large/motivated enough, nor is there a well-planned tiering protocol in place, for reinventing the GSC UU wheel. I have my own problems with the Smogon GSC UU tier, but it's not really feasible to do anything substantial about it. If a GSC UU ladder is deemed worthy to be implemented (I'd be game for a few matches if it were), the Smogon UU tier would be perfectly serviceable.
 
I agree with Jorgen. The Smogon UU tier is perfectly playable. I've been doing some UU battles over the TGB Dual emulator with netplay using that tier and they were quite enjoyable matches.
 

Bedschibaer

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The problem with gsc uu is that nobody plays it and there are tons of different banlists out there. And the thing with certain mons being banned is that everyone has a different judging on certain subjects. While some want Kingdra banned, some will not want that, and with a playerbase that small it will be impossible to get an as objective as possible banlist.
That being said i would participate in tiering discussion and playtests or in a potentially rising gsc uu community/ladder.
 

Jorgen

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I think we can all agree that Kingdra is too good for UU. Unless, of course, you're a person who wants to remove BL and make that UU, in which case you're talking about a tier wholly different than the UU we know.
 
What about the Mt. Silver tiers? While I did not participate in the discussion, I did read it and the conclusions seemed pretty good. Maybe there are a couple of BL's that could be dropped to UU without causing much trouble (like, Typhlosion is basically a better Magmar, although Magmar was apparently really good already), but otherwise that looked like a perfectly playable tier—minus the playerbase, of course. Yea it's gonna be centralized around Pokemon like Chansey, Slowbro, and maybe Victreebel/Maggy, but that is to be expected when you have so few Pokemon to choose from.

I dunno, it seems like you guys put a lot of thought into them and it's not like anything has changed to start tiering again from the Smogon tiers. If you were to make UU playable on PS!, I don't see any real reason to use a different tiering system. And yes, I know that the lack of a playerbase hurts, but it's not like you'll be able to garner a playerbase before anyway.
 

Bedschibaer

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I just took Kingdra as an example because it's one of those pokes that is BL one some banlists and UU on others. It was just about making the point that with a small playerbase a new banlist would turn more into personal preference than an actual objective banlist. Probably not the best example, but i have played like 2 or 3 GSC UU matches ever and couldn't think of something that would be overpowered in UU but isn't BL or something that isn't overpowered in UU but is BL.
 

Jorgen

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No off-site tier lists. The Smogon list is by far the most convenient source of a tier list for newer players (which is basically everyone getting into GSC UU nowadays). Most off-site tier lists are very close to Smogon's, anyway.
 
Well I meant we could make the tier list you guys used in Mt. Silver the official for Smogon. But whatever, if you think it's better to just use the Smogon one then do as you want. It's not like all the guys that made that list aren't in Smogon anyway, but I won't bother to argue what's best.
 
I think we can all agree that Kingdra is too good for UU. Unless, of course, you're a person who wants to remove BL and make that UU, in which case you're talking about a tier wholly different than the UU we know.
Well, as I recall the Smogon definition of UU is "stuff that isn't used in OU, with bans to BL as necessary to ensure competitiveness". BL should be a tiny banlist.
 
Well, as I recall the Smogon definition of UU is "stuff that isn't used in OU, with bans to BL as necessary to ensure competitiveness". BL should be a tiny banlist.
Well no it should be as big as it takes to make UU as balanced or competitive as possible. If its size is an issue somes could just be put in OU
 

Mr.E

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Back in the day we tiered shit based on viability rather than usage (because we didn't have usage stats and that's how tiers fucking work in every other competitive game ever). Articuno, Entei, Moltres, Dragonite simply have super-high BST owing to their (pseudo-)legendary status. Alakazam, Jynx, Tentacruel, Espeon see occasional OU usage. What is and isn't "too good" for UU? I guess that depends on the power level you want it at, there's no one correct answer. The volume isn't there to gather usage stats and re-tier everything.
 

MoxieInfinite

Banned deucer.
This is something I would really like to see develop into something more.

After having tested some things here and there with some other Showdown users, I have kinda gotten to see what is good and what isn't, and this is some sort of an overview of the top threats(imo).

Nidoqueen is probably the best mon, simple as that. Few things arent 3HKOed, and those who aren't can simply be put to sleep. Nidoqueen also serves as a nice check to non-HP Ground Victreebel, which is incredibly good.

Slowbro is amazing too, with good offensive coverage, and great defenses and T-Wave, its definitely up there with Nidoqueen.

Quagsire would probably have been THE best if it wasn't for the fact that everything runs HP Grass just to check it. I still find him to be one of the best sponges in the tier though, walling the threat called Electabuzz(without HP Grass since it's uncommon apparently) to hell and back, while his Curse set is probably one of, if not the best sweepers in the tier.

Chansey is of course going to be the premier special wall, and nothing probably goes past her that way, so stop trying. However, being unable to have Heal Bell and Seismic Toss on the same set(at least it's impossible on PO), kinda limits her on the offensive, and can get set-up on easier because of this.

As for the things Nidoqueen doesn't straight up slaughter, we have Slowking. Slowking is usually overshadowed by Slowbro because of worse stat distribution, but in this case, it's for the better. Unlike Slowbro, Slowking is NEVER 3HKOed by Nidoqueens Thunder, where as Slowbro is always 3HKOed. With Slowbro running T-Wave over Sleep Talk, this turns Nidoqueen into an even more dangerous foe.
We also have the sorta gimmicky, but perfectly viable Reflect + Ice Beam Chansey, which easily stalls out Nidoqueen as long as it avoids crits(EQ does ~40%). You forgo Toxic, which can be game-changing in a stall-game, but offense is generally better(and more common), so you wont really loose out on too much.
Nido can also do little to Quag aside from sleeping it. This makes RestTalk Quag the best Nidoqueen counter in the tier, as it can Curse up on it as it is forced to switch(watch out for flying-types, as RestTalk means no HP Rock, unless you forgo Curse), or just EQ it to death.
Hypno is good too, as it functions as a worse Quag, taking hits from Nidoqueen and Electabuzz fairly well, taking ~35% from Nido's EQ and 30-35% from Electabuzz's Thunder. It can also support the team with Reflect and Thunder Wave, or Sleep Talk if it so desires.

As for something I had high expectations for, but hasn't really lived up to the hype, is Ampharos. While being a good supporter and all, it's electric typing isn't as good in UU as in OU. Giving almost free switches to Nidoqueen or Quagsire(depending on HP) is something you rarely want to do, and therefore I feel it kinda falls between the rocks. It also dislikes the faster meta UU has to offer.

Other good Pokemon that deserves a mention:

Dodrio, Victreebel(mega-huge threat, just haven't played with or around it enough yet), Gyarados, Kabutops, Vileplume, Magneton.

Things I just haven't faced enough to really give an honest opinion on:

Arcanine, Politoed, Poliwrath, Magmar, Scyther, etc.


Really hoping Smogon can write up some UU analyses, and post them to get this meta going, since I find it interresting and fun to play.


EDIT: Forgot to mention Lanturn, really nice mon against Slowbro, and other waters not named Quagsire. Sponges most special hits easily(unless it's STAB Thunder, that hurts).
 

Jorgen

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If this is on Showdown, you're using Smogon UU, right? If so, Venusaur and Smeargle should definitely be on the list too.

Pinsir is also fantastic. One of the few straight physical threats that can absolutely murder Slowbro.

I could see Girafarig being a decent BPer, at least better than Scyther, although Smeargle is probably better.

Where are people playing UU btw? Is it on showdown? Or are you on some PO server?
 

Bedschibaer

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Showdown doesn't exactly have GSC uu, the only way is to challenge someone to a GSC ou match and trust your opponent or to play in gen 2 custom game (no clauses though). There isn't a ladder for gsc uu on the main ps server, maybe there is on some more obscure server like joims lab.
 

MoxieInfinite

Banned deucer.
If this is on Showdown, you're using Smogon UU, right? If so, Venusaur and Smeargle should definitely be on the list too.
Yea, that was pretty poorly explained by me. I'm playing WITH some Showdown users, but ON Pokemon Online's main server. We tend to stick to private matches, since the ladder is fairly dead.

Since I'm playing on PO main, Smeargle and Venusaur both are BL(at least I think it they are, haven't seen them anyhow). Smeargle should stick to BL in my opinion, but Venusaur is debatable.

The tier list I'm playing after is this one(http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/wiki/2nd_Gen_Tier_List), but it is not precisely like it says. Kingdra is BL, and some BL Pokemon COULD be UU(which is something I haven't actually checked), but the tier is fairly balanced as it is, and I wouldn't mind having it staying this way.
 

Isa

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Jorgen and others somewhat recently changed the PO tier so that it bans Kingdra from GSC UU on PO. No other adjustments were made from the list you linked.
 
Drum Politoed can sweep if set up properly.
As said before, Dodrio is an incredible threat. Another reason to run stuff like Magneton.
I usually run Electabuzz with Thunder(bolt)/Cross Chop/HP Grass/Ice Punch. In UU, I really don't need Fire Punch and hitting Quagsire for that 4x is totally worth it.
 

MoxieInfinite

Banned deucer.
I think that one is kinda outdated. Im on a phone and the dex doesnt work there but afaik, its not the same list as on PO
 

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