Gen 2 GSC UU?

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#1
So to accompany the Ubers thread, I figured I'd try to start a discussion on the nature of the other unplayed GSC metagame - UU.

Now, first of all, GSC UU is so underplayed that nobody can seem to agree on what belongs in the tier! I feel like we should use this UU tier list because there's a tournament with a UU component going on there whereas Smogon's on-site GSC UU tier is mostly just for show and a bit dated.

To guide discussion, these are the questions I pose in particular:

1) First of all, what Pokemon are actually viable, and which ones do you see making the jump from merely viable to "elite"? Is there a pattern you see in which Pokemon are better than the others?

2) What sets do you see these "elite" Pokemon running? This might get touched on when you're answering Question #1 since it's hard to tell if a Pokemon will be good without some idea of its set.

3) What kinds of playstyles will emerge? Will it be a lot of mixed sweeping? Will slow and steady with Qwilfish Spikes be viable? Perhaps even Baton Pass with the dearth of viable Phazers?
 

Umby

I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
is a Contributor Alumnus
#2
To address (but not necessarily answer) the first question, when I was looking for Pokemon to build a team with, I took the list in that link and ommitted Pokemon I believe wouldn't work in the environment. What I had left was:

Ampharos
Arbok*
Arcanine
Bellossom
Blastoise
Chansey
Crobat
Dewgong
Dodrio
Electabuzz
Electrode
Flareon
Gligar
Golduck
Granbull
Gyarados
Hitmonlee
Hypno
Jumpluff
Kabutops
Kingdra
Lanturn
Magmar
Magneton
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Omastar
Piloswine
Pinsir
Politoed
Primeape
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Raticate*
Sandslash
Scyther
Slowbro
Sudowoodo
Venomoth
Victreebel
Vileplume
Weezing
Wigglytuff
Xatu*

*Questionable choices that I believe might work because I'm a weird guy. Like when I thought Charizard was a top threat in ADV. That kind of thing.

To address #3, I think various playstyles will work as people experiment, but initial appeal will go towards a balanced/bulky offense.
 
#3
I think Kingdra and Chansey are the top two defensive Pokemon. Kingdra with either resttalk or haze walls a lot of stuff, although I'm inclined towards Resttlak with Dragonbreath for para. Curse Kingdra is walled by DB Kingdra and by other cursers.
Chansey runs either Heal Bell or a more supportive set with Thunder Wave / Reflect / Screen / Toxic / Sing etc. Don't know if using an attack is worth it...
I think the other top 3 is Quag: With Kingdra/Chansey/Slowbro being UU, the meta is much more balanced/defensive, and Drumquag abuses that. I feel HP Grass could become the top choice for electrics, given that Kingdra with resttalk easily walls Nidoqueen.
 
#4
I disagree with that list.

I think Kingdra is unsuited for UU play. Shits too powerful. Slowbro might be as well.

I think Quag should get upgraded on the basis that... it's being used more than any UU and half of the BLs.

If we're sticking to that list, then UU stall is the way to go.
 
#5
I think Quag should get upgraded on the basis that... it's being used more than any UU and half of the BLs.
In OU? As you said, many BLs see around the same usage as Quag there: Rhydon, Muk, Charizard, Porygon2, maybe Meganium. However, BL doesn't have anything to do with OU usage, because for OU, UU and BL are the same tier. BL is merely based on UU; if Quag was moved up to BL, it would be as a result of being deemed too powerful for UU, but not as a result of being common enough in OU. The latter would result in Quag becoming OU right away, but that should only happen if it's clearly more common in OU play than any of the UUs AND BLs.
 
#6
Ampharos is another too powerfull for UU IMO.

And I know it's not going to be take into account, but... I really don't like to see people using NFE Pokémon on competitive play.
 
#7
Ampharos is decent but not broken at all. As a sweeper, Electabuzz is better. Amphy does 19% max to Nidoqueen (because you should be using HPgrass for Quag) and rarely 2hkoes Chansey with Dpunch. You'll need to predict correctly every time and pretty much everything hits ampharos hard (or threatens it with status at least) so you won't get many opportunities to switch-in. If you don't predict grounds with hidden power you've basically let them switch-in for free, and if you mispredict against waters you could get paralysed or something. And you'll have to dynamicpunch chansey in the switch-in and pray for a hit, and firepunch grasses/magneton etc.

And defensively, what sleep talking electrics basically do is walling themselves... and giving free switch-in opportunities so some ground types (depends on coverage move, but you should run hpgrass anyway) I'd only use Ampharos as a support mon, probably with thunder reflect hpgrass twave/rest. It's good at it, but not broken.
 
#8
Ampharos is decent but not broken at all. As a sweeper, Electabuzz is better. Amphy does 19% max to Nidoqueen (because you should be using HPgrass for Quag) and rarely 2hkoes Chansey with Dpunch. You'll need to predict correctly every time and pretty much everything hits ampharos hard (or threatens it with status at least) so you won't get many opportunities to switch-in. If you don't predict grounds with hidden power you've basically let them switch-in for free, and if you mispredict against waters you could get paralysed or something. And you'll have to dynamicpunch chansey in the switch-in and pray for a hit, and firepunch grasses/magneton etc.

And defensively, what sleep talking electrics basically do is walling themselves... and giving free switch-in opportunities so some ground types (depends on coverage move, but you should run hpgrass anyway) I'd only use Ampharos as a support mon, probably with thunder reflect hpgrass twave/rest. It's good at it, but not broken.
Ampharos forces plays, just like Kingdra. If you are considering Amphy will always have HP Grass, then you can't switch Quag right away. And then, if it is going to give free switches, it's because you forego Quag for another Ground, or you're going with two grounds (forcing team building too much for a UU Pokémon).

Anyway, Quag can't be UU too. Pratically forces you to spamming HP Grass on every shit.
 
#9
This metagame seems pretty unexplored. I expect stall will probably be a generally effective strategy against all but the most offensive of teams. I'm not sure what I think of Kingdra. It kinda made the game a stalemate for a long time when I faced it in the tournament; I was forced to stall it back for a long time then took a couple of risks and I think it eventually died to a crit? Maybe I am remembering wrong.

It would be good if we had some more games to go off to test all this stuff. How many games have you all actually played recently? Are you practising on the PO server? I have played six games and lost one (to Crystal_ who totally obliterated me), so I don't really have a lot of experience yet...
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#13
Growth + LK is not legal. It'd have to be Growth + Hypno.

Really, though, as long as Kingdra's around, Toed's best set is probably drum. Even without Kingdra, the meta is so water-heavy that Drum might be better anyway.
 
#17
Well, I don't thing it's needed to talk much more about the tier, as Mount Silver is constantly updating it's list. Kingdra is now on BL (the place where it should been from the start), and UU seens pretty balanced now.

Bulky-Offensive is maybe the most used style, but Offensive, Defensive, and Stall can also be used, for example if you wanna try Bulky Offensive, you can use Ampharos, when if you want a more faster and agressive attack, you can use Electabuzz, and things of that like. The unique thing I could change is move Dewgong from NU to UU, it's not a great UU Pokémon, but is completely viable, and seems to powerful for NU, but other than that I could not make more changes to the tiers.
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#18
The last time I played UU I used a team consisting of Dodrio/Slowbro/Magneton/Nidoqueen/Victreebel/Filler. Honestly, I think UU is still pretty unbalanced, I mean those guys are pretty much the metagame, in addition to Gyarados, Ampharos, Chansey, Pinsir, and Granbull. Maybe that's just because I'm closed-minded, though. For example, out of the Pokemon I listed there's no really solid answer to Nidoqueen; I guess you could use Quagsire, Slowking, or Politoed to give yourself a better bet at beating it, but in general those guys don't do too much.
 
#19
Nidoqueen? It's main problem is it's Lovely Kiss to shout down a check or counter, but that's pretty much a problem against any sleep user. Once the sleep clause is on it's just a thing of predict it's attack to have a free switch-in; it doesn't hit really hard, and it just depends of deal super effectives to deal real damage, so, it's rare than Nidoqueen will try to overpredict you too offen. Nidoqueen is not fast, or does huge damage even with a Super Effective (well, unless it's Earthquake), with that in account:

Feraligatr and Blastoise can outspeed it, comes against any Earthquake or Ice Beam, and just Surf it to the oblivion, they can take some damage from Thunderbolt, but they can handle it, specially Restalk Blastoise who can proceed to just heal itself once he ends with Nidoqueen, and he can even switch-in against a Lovely Kiss and proceed to just Sleeptalk it to the end. Golduck can also do something similar with good results. Vileplume can switch-in against anything, and even an Ice Beam if it's with all it's health if I rebember ok, and proceed to threat with Sleep or Leech Seed. Pinsir resists Earthquake, and isn't 2HKO'ed by Ice Beam/Thunderbolt if I rebember ok, and can Sleep Talk if comes against Lovely Kiss, or can just Sword Dance, rest, and Restalk, or can Sword Dance and use Hidden Power Earth if he wants.

Ledian can enter against any attack and use Light Screen, and if he enters against Eathquake, he can even use Agility and Baton Pass some of speed. Quagsire, Slowking, Slowbro, and Politoed can also counter it most of the time without any major trouble.

Revenge-Kill it is easier, anyway, as it's really rare that Nidoqueen OHKO something, and almost anything faster than her can 2HKO it with a Super Effective move, and with some of previous damage, things like Gyarados can just OHKO it before it can do something. Kadabra excels at it as if I rebember ok it can OHKO Nidoqueen.

Nidoqueen can sometimes use Rock Slide, Fire Blast, and Surf, but it suffers from 4 slot syndrome, and if doesn't do BoltBeam + Earthquake it will have troubles to actually damage things at all (and forgoe the sleep could be silly) so, your list of counters and checks increase, and faster Water pals are still the best switch-ins.

Dodrio/Fearow is stopped by anything faster than it, or anything who can wall it's both STAB and is prone to paralysis, Magneton insta-die against anything with fire or ground (Hidden Power Ground should be more used as coverage, not only for Magneton), Victreebel can be handled pretty well by any sleep talker, as it will sleep you most of the time.

Slowbro and maybe Slowking are a bit OP, anyway, they are really hard to handle, but the problem is more offen Slowbro, Slowking at least can be handled by just strong physical STAB's.
 

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
#22
Nidoqueen is almost the same thing as Nidoking. Obviously any decent "OU" mon is going to be among the best in a UU environment.
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#25
I'd hesitate to call Nidoqueen all that overpowering. It's a good mon, of course, but certainly beatable if you take time to prepare for it when teambuilding. If anything it's just disappointing that it's basically a facet of OU cp'd into UU, which imo isn't really enough of a reason to keep something out of UU.

Honestly if UU were to be balanced I'd support adding things rather than subtracting more. We already have 20+ "BL" Pokemon ffs, enough to make a metagame on their own (that nobody would ever play because BL was never really meant to be a tier). It's not even like ADV UU where the tiers were somewhat widely played and fondly remembered, GSC UU is basically a clean slate and only occasionally played for gimmick tournaments atm.