1. GET SMOGON SHIRTS HERE! First time ever. Limited time only & next time the design will be different, so get it while you can!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gyarados (BW2 Revamp) [QC 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Asek, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    576
    This is my first time doing this sorry if I stuff up
    [​IMG]
    gyarados

    [OVERVIEW]

    • Gyarados is one of the most threatening sweepers in the tier
    • Didn't gain anything noticeable in BW2, but the rise of rain offense is certainly in its favor
    • Awesome dual STAB's, high Attack, good bulk, Dragon Dance and usable Speed make it quite formidable
    • 2 great abilitites in Moxie and Intimidate to help it sweep
    • Can run defensive orientated sets with nice resistances and Intimidate
    • Lackluster speed coupled with a Stealth Rock weakness make it fairly easy to revenge by common Choice Scarf users even when boosted
    • Nasty weakness to Volt Switch and Bolteam users in general
    • A good choice for teams in need of a physical Water-type
    [SET]
    name: Bulky Dragon Dance
    move 1: Substitute / Taunt
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Bounce
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Intimidate / Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    • Gyarados's standard set can sweep through the majority of the tier
    • Substitute lets Gyarados avoid status and revenge killers while letting you evade enemy Volt-Switches
    • Taunt is another option, preventing defensive Pokemon from PHazing you or recovering while trying to wall you. It also stops common status moves used to stop Gyarados such as Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp from being used.
    • Dragon Dance is what makes Gyarados deadly raising its Attack to crazy levels while patching up its Speed
    • Waterfall is the obligatory STAB move denting anything not resisting it
    • Your coverage move is primarily to hit bulky Water-types although it does have other perks, noticeably being a secondary STAB in case Waterfall doesn't quite have the power out of rain
    • Bounce hits Grass-types such as Celebi and Ferrothorn as well as Gastrodon for good damage while having strong base power with the STAB boost.
    • Both of Gyarados's abilitites are useful on the set
    • Intimidate makes setting up on physical attackers such as Scizor a lot easier
    • Moxie allows you to get a snowball effect going and makes the opponent wary of sacrificing Pokemon to get a check in safely or break the sub
    • EVs let you outpace Scarf Terrakion and Keldeo at +2, while Jirachi can never break your Substitute with Body Slam. Also grants a good Leftovers number with the rest in Attack for the damage.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    • Good Gyarados team mates should be able to handle Skarmory, be able to beat Electric types and dispatch of bulky Water-types.
    • Politoed is a great team mate, providing a very noticeable boost to Waterfalls power, allowing you to get a guaranteed 2HKO on the likes of Skarmory at +1
    • Rapid Spinners are also appreciated, Gyarados appreciates having Stealth Rock off the field so it has an easier time setting up. Starmie has Rapid Spin and can use Thunderbolt to damage bulky Water-types and Skarmory making it a great team mate
    • Rotom-W gets a special mention, it wards off Skarmory and can hit most Water-types hard with its Electric STAB of choice as well as hitting the common Electric types in the tier hard with Hydro Pump.
    • Jolteon and Thundurus-T can absorb Electric attacks aimed at Gyarados while Gyarados can switch in for free on Ground attacks aimed at Jolteon. They both smash aside bulky Water-types and Skarmory making them great Gyarados partners. Jolteon can also pass Gyarados free Substitutes.
    • Magnezone can trap Skarmory and Ferrothorn which are 2 of Gyarados's best counter's. It can also throw around its Electric STAB to hit most bulky Water-types hard. Magnezone and Gyarados also have good synergy, making them easy to place on a team together
    • Choice Specs Gothielle in a similar case can trap many of Gyarados's checks and counters including Choice Scarf Terrakion, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Starmie, Celebi and defensive Politoed and deal with them with the appropriate move making Gyarados's sweep a lot easier
    • Stone Edge can be used in the last slot to hit Rotom-W, defensive Gyarados, Kyurem-B and Dragonite harder but Bounce is generally more useful
    • Return is also another option. The combination of Normal + Water coverage is only resisted by 4 fully evolved pokemon, namely Empoleon, Jellicent, Shedinja and Ferrothorn. Being walled by Ferrothorn is however a major disadvantage, and Return doesn't boast great power against bulkier opponents.
    [SET]
    name: Offensive Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Bounce
    move 4: Stone Edge / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb/ Lum Berry
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • This set is the most offensive Gyarados can run, ditching the safety of Substitute for raw speed and power
    • After one Dragon Dance you outspeed the entire unboosted OU tier when using a Jolly nature.
    • Lum Berry lets you set up on common status inflictors such as Jirachi and can also avoid an untimely Scald burn
    • Life Orb provides a noticable bump to your damage output, the extra power can help muscle past weakened checks / counters most noticeably Skarmory with a small bit of prior damage
    • Earthquake hits Steel types notciably Magnezone, Metagross, Jirachi and Heatran in sun hard
    • Stone Edge Can be used as well, it hits Kyurem-B, Rotom-W, and Flying types such as Dragonite and Zapdos for a lot of damage
    • Bounce is a good secondary STAB, hitting Grass types that resist your Water STAB hard, while also denting all of the common Dragon types in OU
    • Both natures have their perks over the other. Jolly outspeeds Jolteon and Choice Scarf Politoed at +1 who can both cut sweeps short, while Adamant gives a noticeable power buff
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    • Rain support from Politoed is once again, the greatest support Gyarados can have, raising the power of its STAB move to astounding levels.
    • This set is prone to being revenge killed by common Choice Scarfers including Latios, Terrakion and Salamence, so team mates that can take out or even abuse these scarfed Pokemon are ideal. Scizor can use its powerful Bullet Punch or U-Turn to clear out a quite a few checks / counters.
    • Rapid Spin isn't nessecary but it is certainly helpful, especially with Life Orb as Stealth Rock + Life Orb recoil + any damage taken while setting up will leave Gyarados without too many turns to sweep. Starmie or Tentactruel are both great options to fill this slot, usually fitting into teams Gyarados does.
    • Intimidate can be used over Moxie if you feel the Attack boost's aren't too useful. This also allows you to use Double Edge if you want to as unfortunately Double Edge + Moxie is an illegal combination
    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Roar/ Dragon Tail
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Gyarados boasts above average bulk, Intimidate and important resistances/ immunities.
    • These traits make it an ideal candidate for a teams bulky Water-type slot
    • RestTalk although a rather poor means of recovery is the best Gyarados has.
    • Works best with multiple hazard layers up to maximize the damage done by its chosen PHazing move
    • Roar is 100% accurate and goes through Substitute usually making it the superior option for the PHazing move
    • Dragon Tail does a small amount of damage to stuff it hits and can also PHaze Magic Bounce users while not being affected by Taunt
    • Waterfall still does a fair amount of damage to many of Gyarados's targets
    • The EV's let Gyarados get the most mileage when walling the many physical attackers that it likes switching into such as Breloom.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • A team mate that provides hazards for Gyarados to abuse are the best options when considering team mates
    • Ferrothorn is a great partner, resisting Gyarados's weakness's while providing Spikes and / or Stealth Rock to help it maximize its potential. Gyarados can sponge Fighting and Fire attacks aimed at Ferrothorn as well.
    • This set hates being forced out while resting, don't Rest until stuff that forces it out such as Jolteon are gone
    • A Rapid Spinner is crucial for Gyarados so it doesn't have to rest as often and can wall the Pokemon it likes to switch into for a lot longer
    • Wish support is also very nice, Blissey stands out as it takes special attacks aimed at Gyarados while keeping it healthy with its massive wishes
    • Heal Bell Celebi makes a great partner, taking Electric attacks aimed at Gyarados easily while waking up Gyarados if it is in a resting state
    • If running a good Wish passer and a consistent Rapid Spinner, Gyarados can forgo Rest + Sleep Talk for Taunt + Thunder wave. This gives it more utility against both offensive and defensive teams.
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Ice Fang
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252Atk / 4Def / 252Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • For rain teams wanting a mix of a revenge killer and a sweeper Gyarados can perform admirably
    • Gyarados can outspeed notable threats up to +1 Adamant Dragonite, and has reasonable bulk to tank some boosted priority
    • Waterfall is what you will be using nearly all the time, once the opposing Water resists are out of the picture you're free to spam it
    • The given coverage moves have a few scenarios when they're useful to revenge kill
    • Ice Fang hits Dragon types such as Dragonite, Salamence, Latios and Latias for strong damage
    • Stone Edge his Volcarona hard under sun
    • Earthquake is for Tentacruel and Toxicroak
    • Adamant is the preffered nature, the only notable pokemon you miss out on are Jolteon, Aerodactyl and Timid Scarf Politoed.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Rain support is a necessity for this set to work, otherwise Salamence will do a better job
    • Rapid Spin is greatly appreciated, otherwise the opponent can keep wearing Gyarados down rather quickly from switching out
    • Gyarados isn't the best revenge killer, it misses out on quite a few threats, don't overestimate what it can do in that regard, its more geared towards a late game sweep.
    • Good team mates for this set include Celebi, who can switch into Bulky-Water types that generally stop this set cold, and Scizor who can threaten Ferrothorn, Latias and Celebi and use Bullet Punch to revenge threats Gyarados cannot.
    • Good Rapid Spinners to use include Forretress, Starmie and Tentecruel. The last 2 fit onto rain teams very well, but unfortunatly stack another Electric weakness on top of the one Gyarados adds. Forretress can spin and set up hazards while taking physical hits well , but has trouble getting past spin blockers
    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail

    move 2: Double Edge
    move 3: Ice Fang / Stone Edge
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Choice Band
    abilty: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 88HP / 252Atk / 168Spd


    [SET COMMENTS]

    • This set ditches setting up for raw power straight off the bat
    • This set serves as a great bulky pivot, being able to switch into Fighting attacks with ease and being able to take on threats such as Keldeo and numerous other Choice Locked Fighting-type move users
    • The chosen STAB move with a Choice Band on will do amazing damage under rain.
    • Waterfall has a flinch chance and 100% accuracy usually making this the superior option
    • Aqua Tail has a small boost in power that can come in handy in certain scenarios
    • Double Edge makes Gyarados a great Rotom-W lure, and also smacks around other Water resists for tonnes of damage, the recoil is unfortunate though
    • Ice Fang lets you OHKO 4HP Breloom, making Gyarados a nice check to it. This is also you're strongest option against other Grass-types such as Celebi and Amoonguss.
    • Stone Edge hits Kyurem-B and opposing Gyarados hoping to sponge a Waterfall on the switch in, and still hits Dragonite and Salamence hard.
    • Earthquake does good damage to Jirachi, Ninetales, Tentacruel, Jellicent and Toxicroak.
    • The given EV's let you have the highest damag output with enough speed to outpace max speed Adamant Breloom. The rest is thrown into HP to let you pivot more often
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Politoed is once again the premier team mate for Gyarados, providing the rain support that makes this set so scary
    • Rapid Spin helps you in your role as a pivot, Forretress, Starmie and Tentacruel are all great partners, just watch out for stacking Electric weakness's
    • Avalanche can be used instead of Ice Fang, but the negative priority sucks when Gyarados doesn't want to take unnecessary hits.
    • Bite can 2HKO jellicent and celebi, while also doing lots of damage to Starmie and Latios
    • Pokemon that can get rid of bulky Water-types are good Gyarados team mates
    • Breloom, specifically the SubPunch variant gets a special mention, it can set up on Jellicent that generally like to switch into this set as well as Gastrodon, Tentacruel, Poltioed and Tentacruel with ease and scare them out.
    • LO Starmie is also a good team mate, providing Rapid Spin support while also being able to beat most bulky Water-types that stop you from spamming Waterfall
    • Bounce and Outrage are both OK options, but have negative side affects that make them undesirable. Outrage is a free switch in for any Steel in the tier once locked and Bounce is easy to evade

    [OTHER OPTIONS]

    • A bulky Dragon Dance set using Taunt to become an effective stall breaker, has trouble setting up and sweeping in the current metagame though
    • Aqua Tail can be used over Waterfall on the Dragon Dance sets, but the small power raise usually isn't worth the loss of a flinch chance and the accuracy drop
    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

    • Jolteon
    • Choice Scarf Terrakion
    • Ferrothorn
    • Gastrodon
    • Skarmory
    • Choice Scarf Thundurus
    • Persish Song Celebi with Flying resist partners
    • Thunderbolt / Thunder Rotom-W
    • Starmie
    • Defensive Gyarados
    • Kyurem-B
    • Cloyster
    • Porygon-2
  2. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,071
    Just wanted to point out that the EVs on the first set let you outspeed base 120s, not 115s. Magnezone is also a beautiful teammate, as it can break Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and crush bulky Waters with STAB Thunder. The combo of Gyarados and Magnezone also resist every type in the game when together, which is quite noteworthy synergy wise, both offensively and defensively. Goooo Asek :D
  3. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    For Check's and Counters, Add Cloyster with Rock Blast, also Celebi and Tangrowth can check sets without Bounce.

    I wonder if anyone has tried Moxie Flail Gyarados as a late game sweeper? I remember people not liking it in 4th gen due to Sandstream, but in this gen we have Rain to rid the Sandstream recoil and boost up STAB Waterfall.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,987
    Sub + DD:

    Set Comments

    • Imo SE should be removed from the 4th slash. Bounce is really needed for both the power and the coverage. With Stone Edge SpD Celebi with P-Song walks all over you (something that rain teams don't want), Toxicroak walks all over you (again something that rain teams should avoid), Keldeo has a chance to injure you greatly with Hydro Pump or just kill you with HP Electric, and generally Stone Edge is shit. You don't even need it for Dnite, which dies after SR 75% of the time from +1 Bounce. Bulky Rotom-W easily tanks a +1 SE and kills back while the Scarf variant usually only has Volt Switch which means that Gyarados can just use Sub on the switch and set-up as Rotom-W switches out. AC material at best.
    Additional Comments
    • Specs Gothitelle is a very good partner for Gyarados. It cripples or kills Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Scarf Terrakion, bulky Starmie (which counters Gyarados if it has Thunder), Celebi (Celebi + any flying resistor wall Gyarados), and defensive Politoed, making it much easier for Gyarados to sweep.


    RestTalk:

    Additional Comments

    • Heal Bell Celebi is a great teammate. It walls most Electric-types, Pokemon that usually carry Electric moves (Starmie, CM Jirachi), and gains many free turns to wake up Gyarados, drastically increasing its lifespan. Gyarados in turn takes care of physical Dragon-types that can set-up on Celebi, as well as Scizor, Heatran, Infernape, and Ninetales.
    • Mention that if you use this set with Wish support and a good spinner, it is possible to forgo RestTalk alltogether and use T-Wave + Taunt in their place, giving Gyarados much more utility this way.

    Checks and Counters
    :

    • I would mention that Perish Song Celebi + any sturdy Flying resist (Skarmory, Jirachi, Bronzong, etc) pretty much shut down SubDD Gyarados.
    • Any Rotom-W with Tbolt is a counter to Gyarados, and possibly the best one
    • Bulky Starmie with Thunder or Tbolt counter the SubDD set and check the offensive one pretty well. Offensive Starmie is an ok check to any Gyarados set
    • Opposing RestTalk Gyarados easily handle any Stone Edge-less offensive Gyarados
    • Any Kyu-B set checks SubDD Gyarados pretty well. Sub variants avoid Bounce with Sub and OHKO with Fusion Bolt or phase you with D-Tail and choice set can tank a Bounce if worst comes to worst (56.77 - 67%) and then OHKO back
  5. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Stone Edge does a lot to Kyu-B (who you yourself listed as a check), but other than that I agree that it should be AC material.
  6. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    576
    Implemented all of alexwolf's suggestions, now that you bring it up I agree that bounce is definitely a lot more useful than stone edge when it comes to the final coverage move
  7. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,338
    Firstly, can you please capitalise the names of Pokemon and moves and fix the formatting please? For example, it's 56 HP / 248 Atk / 208 Spe. I'm sorry, but this is really bothering me because we expect you to show a certain amount of professionalism in these analyses.

    Anyway, onto the main analysis. Gyarados has 7 sets in the analysis presently, there are only 3 in this analysis. While I like how we're trimming down sets that are mediocre, you need to explain why they are being relegated to OO or not even getting mentions at all. Taunt needs to be mentioned in the DD set at the very least (I'm personally thinking of slashing Taunt with Substitute in the first set and calling it "Bulky Dragon Dance"). Also, I personally think Choice Band and Choice Scarf should stay for now, they have pretty distinct niches, but we'll see what the rest of QC thinks.
  8. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    That's actually what I did in BW1 metagame. Used the SubDD set, but with the EV's of the Bulky Set, mainly because with the 56 HP Ev version Scizor was still breaking my Subs all the time.

    You also mention Choice Scarf and Choice Band having niches. Scarf I can understand, but what niche does CB Gyarados have? Beating able to OHKO Rotom-W after SR with Outrage or Double Edge? Eh.
  9. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    576
    I noticed I didn't capitalize this at all, I was planning on doing so tomorrow but I've done it now instead. Thanks for pointing out the EV spread formatting as well. I might have missed something / got some grammar wrong (I'm pretty sure its bulky Water-type(s)) I will check tomorrow and get the rest of it sorted

    Slashing taunt on the Sub + DD set is something I was considering but I decided against it in the end because I thought substitute would be better the majority of the time. It can be pretty cool in certain situtations though especially against skarmory so slashing it sounds good to me if the other QC members agree with you

    Anyway I tried both CB and Scarf Gyarados post genesect and I was sort of disapointed with both. Choice Band hit hard under rain sure, but it was getting forced out easily once it was locked in and with the Stealth Rock weakness added in it really wasn't the powerful pivot I was hoping it would be, instead being quite easy to force out to take more hazard damage and pretty much at most being able to switch in twice through out the game considering attacks taken on the switch along with stealth rock. I did provide rapid spin for it, but the set itself leans towards switching into Water, Fighting and Ground type attacks and throwing around a powerful attack as they switch out, and if the threatening Mamoswine has switched in and I need Gyarados to get in a take it I can't ensure I can keep Stealth Rock off my side of the field in said situations. Also the fact that it is so rain reliant to distiniguish itself from other CB users is also a pain for it. Choice Band swampert is probably the closest thing to it, but it boasts a Stealth Rock resistance and a good secondary STAB over it. It was just meh in my playing experience with it

    If a QC member thinks that scarf should go in I won't object to it. It does boast pretty high power in rain and can finish off late game, but it is rather slow for a revenge killer and won't be able to revenge kill many prominent metagame threats. The fact that nearly every team will carry 2 water resists also puts a damper on its performance and makes it a lot harder to spam waterfall and this couple with the fact that it is not too strong initially can make getting the initial boost difficult. It is heavily rain dependant to make it worth using, and if you do add it to rain teams you are stacking more electric weakness's increasing the weakness's to scarf thundurus-t / sub jolteon that many rain teams are weak to. It does have a lot of end game potential but the fact that it is a poor mans salamence out of rain and the way how it can't revenge many relevant boosted threats like a scarfer should be made me doubtful of adding it initially.

    EDIT : I have added taunt to the Sub + DD set and called it Bulky DD as per shrang and many others suggestions. It does have its uses but I will stress substitute being better by a fair margin
  10. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    Why is there no Choice Gyarados?!?!?!

    Choice Scarf + Moxie is a HUGE threat in rain

    Choice Band + Intimidate is a bulky tank attacker that you just don't want to fuck with.

    These two sets need to be included, end of story. They are both significantly better than RestTalk Gyarados, which is a set I vouch for being still viable in BW2.
  11. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    Yea, I agree that Scarf Moxie has to be included as a set. The power it has as a revenge killer in the rain is practically unmatched, and it also functions as late-game cleaner. I don't understand why the set was removed in the first place, as nothing in the tier outclasses it.

    Band Intimidate is also great, but I think it functions differently enough from Scarf Moxie to have a separate set. It's more of a bulky nuke than a revenge killer/cleaner.
  12. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,002
    I think Taunt deserves more mention like what shrang said because it prevents Skarmory from phazing you out and most Roar users. Scald burns are horrible but Taunt stops the opponent from recovering too.

    Choice Band Gyarados works great for me because of Intimidate and makes it a decent team player. You can switch in on something such as Garchomp's Earthquake for free and force it out with the appropriate move. I find Outrage as an acceptable move and deserves mention, it OHKOes Kyurem-B, Latias, Latios and strong enough to KO Rotom-W and Thundurus-T after Stealth Rock. Gyarados is also bulky enough to survive a non CB Tyranitar Stone Edge from full health with Intimidate factored in. I don't know what is the main EV spread for CB Gyarados but I usually run a slower one to maximize bulk and take advantage of Intimidate.

    Another great thing about Choice Band Gyarados is you beat many hard hitters one-on-one easily, including Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence and opposing Gyarados. Lastly Choice Band Gyarados's Waterfall/Aqua Tail is the only way for you to OHKO max HP Tyranitar.
  13. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    On the suggestion of Rotom-W as a teammate, mention it can burn Ferrothorn with Will-O-Wisp (which SubDD Gyarados can actually set up on).

    As far as Sub Vs Taunt goes, I suppose we should list the PRO's of each:

    Substitute:
    * Protects from Scald burns
    * Makes it easier to use Bounce due to protection
    * Prevents Jolteon / Terrakion from revenge killing you.
    * Can get passed Volt-Turn users

    Taunt:
    * Prevents Phasing
    * Doesn't make you lose 25% HP
    * Gets by Protect and Perish Song
    * Prevents the foe from setting up on you (i.e Bulk Up)

    Anything else I'm missing?
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,987
    You forgot to list that Sub lets you set-up against any Rotom-W without Tbolt/Thunder that tries to switch into Gyarados.
  15. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    Yes, he he is.. not sure about Outrage though.. Double Edge has the same base power and doesn't lock you in. Waterfall / Double Edge / Ice Fang / Earthquake is the standard CB Gyarados
  16. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    Bounce should be be the main coverage move on the offensive Dragon Dance set. It outdamages Stone Edge on nearly every relevant target, does comparable damage to Salamence, Dragonite, Latios and Latias (bounce cleanly OHKOes offensive Latias and bulky Latias after SR) and scores the much needed OHKO on defensive Celebi, who basically walls you otherwise. Earthquake / Stone Edge are fine on the 4th slot; Stone Edge achieves most of the KOes that Bounce receives, but without the 2-turn wait and wrecks Zapdos, while Earthquake is solely used for Tentacruel, Jirachi, Magnezone and against Heatran in the sun.
  17. dice

    dice follow @smogmogu for hot content
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,120
    I would run 80 SpD on the Bulky RestTalk set to live two Psychics from Landorus after SR. In agreement with the Bounce > Stone Edge.
  18. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    On the Bulky set, you can suggest an alternate EV spread of 176 HP / 128 Atk / 204 Spe (that's the EV Spread the current Gyarados anaysis has for the Taunt set)? I used to have 212 Spe to outspeed Tornadus-T, but he is banned now. Adamant Gyarados will never outspeed Jolteon with a DD, so probably best if we set it so DD Gyarados can outspeed either base 120's or base 115 (Starmie).

    Doesn't Earthquake do more against Jirachi, Magnezone, and Ferrothorn? I'd also mention Metagross, but he doesn't seem too relevant these days.
  19. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    Oh right, I forgot about Jirachi & Magnezone. I'll add that to my post.
  20. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,752
    My views on the Choice Sets

    Choice Band

    Have used CB in the past and it worked fine. Lacking the ability to boost its speed hurt slightly, but it had tremendous power, and Intimidate would help out my team loads. It was also an amazing Rotom-W lure, which I could nail with an Outrage or Double Edge (I preferred Outrage over Double Edge since it hit Jellicent which my team had issues with) and all in all I was very satisfied with the results. Basically, I am agreeing with TR and everyone else which stated its a bulky pivot / nuke, because thats basically what it is lol.

    Choice Scarf

    Found it more usable that Choice Band tbh. It was a really excellent cleaner, and it was an o.k revenge killer as well. (Although personally I would have a back up revenge killer / check since it misses out on Salac Terrakion / Chomp / Haxorus and stuff :( ). Again, I ran Outrage for hitting Lati@s and shit since you can actually revenge kill them and for some reason they like switching into Gyarados or something :/

    Yea, people do have 2 water resists nowadays, due to rain being so common, but I never found this to be too much of a problem. Since you are using Scarf Gyarados under Rain, I could simply spam water moves (and not necessarily with Gyarados) until said water resists are weakened, then you bring in Gyarados to clean. Even if you don't want to do this, you can simply predict a water resist switching in and use Ice Beam or whatever. Its not hard to weaken down water resists, especially when Rain Teams have such powerful abusers available. To be clear, I use Gyarados as a late game cleaner and part time revenge killer, since its low speed (compared to other choice scarfers) makes it difficult for it to be a reliable revenge killer.

    Just in passing, I also really dislike seeing the "Stacking Electric weakness" arguement. Its true that rain teams do struggle with electric attacks, but its never really been a problem for any good rain team. Valentine managed to peak in the Top 5 on the OU ladder with a triple electric weak team, just because something shares a weakness with Politoed is no reason to not give something an analysis.
  21. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,780
    I'd definitely like to see band and scarf. I'm not really sure about the moves though (you mostly just need waterfall really). Bearing this in mind, I don't think it's a terrible idea to have a suicidal move to take out the few pokemon that don't mind it. What you really have to worry about when running that water-spamming sort of team are only the very durable water resists, and the immune pokemon. So stuff like Celebi, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Jellicent, Latias, Vaporeon, Toxicroak etc. I'd say that EQ is mandatory, and the next best option is then probably outrage. That leaves you with a slot free for Ice Fang, Stone Edge or Bounce (freaking risky, obviously).

    Other things:

    - Mention return somewhere at least. It's a very decent coverage option.
    - Mention Intimidate in AC of offensive DD - the power boost from moxie is often entirely unnecessary and the help in setting up is greatly appreciated.
    -Slash Stone Edge back in after bounce on bulky dd. Bounce is still a pretty risky move, especially if not running sub, and leaves you walled by some protect users without taunt.
    -Mention Double Edge in AC of offensive DD. Suicidal, but extremely powerful - a lot of fun!
    -Is an SpD spread worth an AC mention on RestTalk?
  22. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    814
    i don't think the insignificant bulk of 50 or w.e hp evs is worth trading off outrunning scarftera/keld at +2 with a simple max neutral. idk if max adamant nite tier is as relevant in bw2 but that's a nice perk you get with it too. maybe make that the main and ac something that commits more to bulk. i mean sub, lefties, and intimidate are enough to differentiate it from the allout dder already, while there's also the fact that it plays a lot more reliably and can actually check shit. 2cents
  23. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    I think DE is illegal with Moxie. DE he learns as a Gen 3 tutor move, where a Moxie is a DW ability. Correct me if I'm wrong.
  24. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,780
    Come to think of it, when I used it I also used intimidate (which I'm starting to think is just better for everything but scarf). Forget what I said there.

    Could you please mention this significant illegality in the analysis? Would've helped me!
  25. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    576
    I will write up the choice sets ASAP, I guess they deserve a set, although not the best they do have their niche. I think I did all the smaller changes but I will finish implementing suggested changes soon!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)