Here Comes The Sun!

[Red Ink]

I was going to save this for a RMT post, but as far as I am concerned Ninetales is a terrible Sunny Day lead since it can get trounced by the other weather leads, is frail and not particularly powerful. So I've been using my LOLpix lead instead, which beats Politoed one-on-one, potentially (for me, more often than not) taking it out of the game):

Vulpix (Lolpix) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Protect
- Toxic
- Fire Spin
- Disable / Confuse Ray / Hypnosis

Ninetales is arguably the most disadvantaged of all the weather-inducers (except perhaps Abomasnow). Poor defenses and funnily enough high speed mean that it not only loses to the slower Drizzle and Sandsream leads in terms of changing weather conditions from turn one, but it is also forced out by the STAB moves of Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon with no reliable way to retaliate. It soon occurred to me that I could swing the momentum in my direction by using the slower pre-evolution, and that I could even easily tank hits from Politoed and start to wear it down with Toxic with a specially bulky set, Drought and the Evolution stone:

216 Atk vs 376 Def & 280 HP (80 Base Power [Boil Over]): 50 - 62 (17.86% - 22.14%)
216 Atk vs 376 Def & 280 HP (95 Base Power [Surf]): 60 - 72 (21.43% - 25.71%)
306 Atk vs 376 Def & 280 HP (120 Base Power [Hydro Pump]): 108 - 128 (38.57% - 45.71%)

The set allows me to take out the Drizzle Pokemon one-on-one, with the weather in my favour at the end of the fight. Toxic wears Politoed down, while Fire Spin stops it from switching out. Eventually residual damage takes its toll and Politoed is knocked out. Disable can be used to take out the water attack to improved longevity, and protect helps stalling. IIRC the EVs are set up to be one less than Hippowdon, so that Drought always kicks in.

It's partially (okay, very) gimmicky, but it's worked a crap-load better for me than Ninetales. You're still forced out by Tyranitar and Hippowdon, but they are more easily setup on by grass-types such as Tangrowth.

 

[Lee]

Why? Vulpix is cool and all but a Macho Brace Ninetales is slower, bulkier on both sides of the spectrum and hits a lot harder.

 

[Benlisted]

Why? Vulpix is cool and all but a Macho Brace Ninetales is slower, bulkier on both sides of the spectrum and hits a lot harder.

Very true, Ninetales has entirely better stats than Vulpix (lower SpDef but HP more than makes up for it) should you choose to go bulky and use Macho Brace. It also has the potential to resist Trick pretty effectively too, rather than be ruined by it. In any case, the Vulpix set doesnt account for Hypnosis, which Toed can use to cripple Vulpix and either escape or wait out the Fire Spin.

The only reasons I can see for using Vulpix are that Macho Brace does not halve speed when sent out, meaning Sun activates first, or that Vulpix is being used as well as Ninetales, which really seems like a huge waste of two teamslots.

 

[alphatron]

I tried out Swampert and later on replaced him with Unaware quagsire. Unaware is more than just some gimmick ability. The lack of a reliable ice move to hit dragons with kind of hurts, but quagsire gets things done. This is the set I've been running

Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Rock Slide
- Curse


Relatively simple. I've also dabbled with a dual screen meganium and a Leafeon. Leaf Gaurd meganium is a nice help, being able to phase, sub seed, or even act as a cleric for the OTHER pokes on your team with aromatherapy. Leafeon has surprised the living hell out of me, I will admit.


Leafeon (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Atk / 148 Spd
Hardy Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass


According to the smogon calculator, this thing takes 28.7% - 34.1% from Doryuzuu's X-Scissor and 13-15% from Earthquake. Meaning that a healthy Leafeon can switch in on an unboosted Dory, SD in its face, and then respond back. Baton pass is there but can be slashed out for another option like Sunny Day if you want a backup SD user. I run Baton Pass personally because it allows me to switch freely on Shandera and hand the boosts over to another team member. Helps if you have a flash fire pokemon.

 

[Nanoswine]

post

What does this have to do with this thread...

And as has been said, Ninetails is better than Vulpix in every way possible. If you want to be slower, use macho brace.

 

[alphatron]

The post mentions pokemon that benefit from the sun and work well on a sunny day team? Unless I missed something...

 

[Nanoswine]

The post mentions pokemon that benefit from the sun and work well on a sunny day team? Unless I missed something...

Oh, sorry, thought someone made a thread suggesting to use Vulpix over Ninetales *facepalm*

 

[alphatron]

^It's alright. This topic seems to have died anyway.

 

[IcyMan28]

That Leafeon calculation is incorrect; 252/0 Neutral Leafeon takes (43.11% - 50.90%) from an unboosted X-Scissor, a solid 95% chance to 2HKO with rocks.

 

[alphatron]

^Is that without the life orb? I must have messed up somehow then.

And noticing that Leafeon has a hardy nature, I probably did fail. I'm pretty sure I did the calcs with Impish Leafeon. Looking at my actual team in the team builder, he's got an impish nature anyway...

 

[IcyMan28]

Without, yes. An Impish nature would probably reduce the damage by 8%-10%, though, which is still a significant third of Leafeon's health (more if Sand is blowing, as Dory would have the chance to SD).

 

[alphatron]

Yeah, you were right. Without the SD, it's 39-47%. In my personal experience, Leafeon has never switched in to Dory. That job is left to balloon Ninetales when I successfully predict the EQ or after I sacrifice something. However, if a healthy Leafeon is already in, then Dory would have some trouble killing it even with the sandstorm up.

+2 Dory does 77.8% - 92.2% and Leaf Blade is a guarenteed 2HKO with the set I posted. I guees I could go for making the set bulkier...

 

[SupremeDirt]

I'm personally a fan of Bulb Ninetales. Switch into a special water move from something you threaten, taking neutral due to sun, get the SpA boost, Nasty Plot on the switch, and attack. Base 100 Spe is pretty decent, but you could run Nitro Charge to boost that, though that leaves you with a Fire move, and your choice of Energy Ball or a Hidden Power.

I'm thinking that Garchomp might benefit from Sun. Outrage/EQ/Fire Blast/Swords Dance could work, Fire Blast actually being useful thanks to the sun.

 

[CTNC]

I believe the best Item for Ninetails is the Shed Skin. Its that or death by trappers.

 

[amphouse]

http://serebii.net/blackwhite/dreamworldareas.shtml

Hey, look! Drought vulpix(and therefore ninetales) actually exists now. Interesting... now it can be used outside of PO.

 

[alphatron]

Unfortunately, unless you're running Dark pulse, Ninetales can't do much to Shandera. And if you happen to see a CM Shandera, then you've lost your weather starter. I've grown slightly paranoid to switching Ninetales out immeadiately after it sets up rain only leaving it in when there's no shandera, or when I've set up rocks.

 

[R_N]

Well, Shanderra doesn't have shadow tag, yet. So that shouldn't be a problem for a while?

 

[CTNC]

Well, Shanderra doesn't have shadow tag, yet. So that shouldn't be a problem for a while?

coughcoughdugtriocoughcough

 

[gvmgvm40]

coughcoughdugtriocoughcough

Dugtrio is pretty rare though. Tyranitar is a bigger issue for Ninetales.

 

[CTNC]

Dugtrio is pretty rare though. Tyranitar is a bigger issue for Ninetales.

There both big threats, but in Non-Dream World battles Dugtrio is the only Trapper in OU, so he should be gaining popularity... fast.

 

[alphatron]

I've seen Scarftrio show up every now and then. He carries a scarf to outrun other scarfed pokemon now it seems. Tyranitar is a problem if it switches in on you. Which it can do with ease.

 

[Ulevo]

One of the biggest problems I see with most sunlight teams is that they rely on Ninetales as a starter. This is not a well planned decision when you consider that:

- Ninetales is always faster than Politoed, Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Abomasnow unless the aforementioned Pokemon are using Choice Scarf, which ensures the opposing player wins the battle for weather control
- Ninetales doesn't set up entry hazards the way Tyranitar and Hippowdon do
- Ninetales doesn't scout the opposing team (effectively) the way Hippowdon does
- Ninetales can't inflict status reliably due to Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis' accuracy

Ninetales can be useful, it just needs to be used in a role it can fit comfortably in. A starter, unfortunately, isn't that role. Consider something like this for a sunlight team:

Genosekuto @ Life Orb
Rash or Mild/Download
6 ATK/252 SpATK/252 SPD
- U-Turn
- Thunder
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Flamethrower/Nitro Charge/Ice Beam


The whole purpose of this starter is to wreck opposing weather starters while having a chance to U-Turn to an appropriate counter, or Ninetales to invoke sunlight again if necessary.

Politoed

Thunder deals 66.1% - 78.1% to Politoed with a 252/252 Calm spread, and will be 100% accurate while in the rain, along with 30% chance of paralysis. Because Politoeds Special Defense is much higher than its Defense, Genosekuto will gain the download boost for Attack, dealing 56.5% - 66.7% from U-Turn. If for some obscure reason Politoed doesn't have higher Special Defense on its spread and Genosekuto gains the Special Attack boost, Thunder is an instant KO.

You are given 3 scenarios:

1) Politoed is dealt a minimum of 66% damage from Thunder + possibility of paralysis. From there, it proceeds to switch while you U-Turn, dealing damage to the incoming thread and switching to a counter of your choice, or Ninetales to start Drought.

2) The same scenario plays out as scenario 1, except Politoed stays in and subsequently faints. From there, Politoed is no longer able to effect the weather, and you can switch to Ninetales and proceed to win.

3) Your opponent switches immediately upon seeing Genosekuto, and worse case scenario the incoming threat is immune to Thunder. From there, simply U-Turn out and switch to appropriate counter or Ninetales to start the sunlight and switch the momentum in your favour.

Tyranitar

Note: If someone could please inform me on how Download properly works if I am incorrect in my assumptions, I'd appreciate it. I am unsure as to whether or not Download takes in to account Tyranitars Special Defense boost from the sand and being a Rock type, or if it just uses the raw stats. I'm assuming the latter. Either way it doesn't matter too significantly because the end result is ultimately the same.

Assuming a 252/252 Careful Spread in the sand (which is what I use to keep Tyranitar alive), Hidden Power will deal 49.5% - 58.4% to Tyranitar. Given that Genosekuto will receive the Attack download boost in this case, U-Turn deals 79.2% - 93.6%.

If for some reason Tyranitar is running a more standard spread for a lead, Genosekuto will receive the download boost for Special Attack, and will almost always be a direct KO. Even assuming a 252/252 Careful spread against the download boost (which isn't possible, but just for figures), Tyranitar would receive 73.3% - 87.1% while proceeding to be hit with 79.2% - 93.6% damage on a 252/0 Neutral Nature Tyranitar via U-Turn.

The point is that regardless of what spread the Tyranitar is running, HP Fighting + U-Turn will 2HKO Tyranitar, while just using U-Turn by itself will often yield a lot of damage. It also has the same benefits as dealing with Politoed did in that it allows you to switch to an appropriate countermeasure or Drought Ninetales.

I'd also like to point out that Download is a great way in helping you assess your opponents set, as it will give you a estimate to where the EV spread lies.

Hippowdon

Put simply, Ice Beam is a OHKO under most instances. If for some silly reason Hippowdon is running a bulkier Special Defensive set and Genosekuto doesn't receive the Download boost, which is possible, it will take 59% - 69.5% from a 252/252 Careful spread from Ice Beam anyway, a clean 2HKO. It's also worth mentioning that a 252/0 Careful spread on Hippowdon for physical defense takes 35.7% - 42.1% from a Download boosted U-Turn, which combined with Ice Beam, is a very high probability for KO. If someone could calculate that for me, that'd be cool.

Mind you, if you choose to use Flamethrower for difference in coverage + abuse the sunlight boost (or Nitro Charge) you won't be able to deal with Hippowdon using this set.

Abomasnow

If you're running Flamethrower, President Snow dies immediately. That said, it is more than likely going to get the boost for physical attack by Download and will OHKO with U-Turn anyway. This would likely be the wisest decision given that I can't imagine an Abomasnow staying in against a Genosekuto, and if you're carrying Ice Beam it is your best alternative. Even if Abomasnow ran some weird EV spread that involved 252 HP EV's and a balance that allowed it to carry higher Defense and subsequently avoid a boosted U-Turn, it will still take 68.8% - 81.3%. It's hardly even worth mentioning though.


EV's on the spread are simplistic, yes. However I didn't feel like lowering Speed if only for the fact that it allows Genosekuto to outrun maxed out Sanzadora and Ononokuso, and the Special Attack EV's are necessary to run the set. I'm sure it might be possible to lower the Special Attack EVs down in favour of strengthening U-Turn, but I'm lazy now and will look in to that later.

On a side note, Geno's shiny form is red, and looks pretty kick ass along side Fire type party members.

 

[Tobes]

Specs Ninetales is looking to be lethal imo

Ninetales @ Choice Specs
Drought
Modest 4/0/0/252/0/252
- Fire Blast
- HP Fighting
- Energy Ball
- Overheat / Dark Pulse

I decided Modest was best because you're already losing a speed IV to HP Fighting, which is of course essential, so I figured since Ninetales no longer even has the capability of speed ties with other Base 100s you might as well milk out as much power as possible. Also as a nice side effect you beat every other weather inducer, including other Ninetales. (Sunshine boosted Modest Specs Overheat usually OHKOs after SR).

 

[jchen]

Specs Ninetales is looking to be lethal imo

Ninetales @ Choice Specs
Drought
Modest 4/0/0/252/0/252
- Fire Blast
- HP Fighting
- Energy Ball
- Overheat / Dark Pulse

I decided Modest was best because you're already losing a speed IV to HP Fighting, which is of course essential, so I figured since Ninetales no longer even has the capability of speed ties with other Base 100s you might as well milk out as much power as possible. Also as a nice side effect you beat every other weather inducer, including other Ninetales. (Sunshine boosted Modest Specs Overheat usually OHKOs after SR).

You still lose to T-tar. modest specs HP fighting tops out at 85.6% vs 0/0 T-tar. not even a chance to OHKO with rocks, and thats vs basically the least bulky T-tar in existence.

 

[Tobes]

You still lose to T-tar. modest specs HP fighting tops out at 85.6% vs 0/0 T-tar. not even a chance to OHKO with rocks, and thats vs basically the least bulky T-tar in existence.

That's with sand, I assume? Which means that if T-tar switched into you, it's 2HKO'd and will lose if it's non-scarfed, period. (252/252 Careful is 2HKOd after SR). Of course, if Tyranitar is revenging it wins, but in that case you're probably locked into Fire Blast or Energy Ball and are losing anyway.

Granted, 252/252 Careful Tyranitar beats Ninetales in the sun, 252 HP has a chance to survive after SR, and of course Scarftar locked into Stone Edge will all beat Ninetales if she comes in after a kill, but otherwise she'll win in the sun.