Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

[Deck Knight]

Look, this is becoming a rehash of every single Ho-oh is/isn't Uber thread that has ever come up.

The "Ho-Oh should be tested" people this Stealth Rock weak is the single greatest factor about Ho-oh, all of its insane strengths be damned, that SINGLE weakness is enough to bring it down.

Also for your calcs Vs. Hariyama, don't forget Burn adds 6% when you factor in Leftovers, 12% on non-Leftovers.

Deck Knight in particular, you have never discredited the toxic bulky water argument. This would kill Ho-oh 99% of the time. Sacred Fire is good, but 8 pp and only (lol only) 50% chance make it and iffy move to begin with.

You make it sound like sacred fire is a 200 bp 45 pp move with 100% chance to burn. Your argument is easily applied to sacred fire. "Just add protect" and the pp of sacred fire is depleted.

Here's a LO Ho-Oh with 160/80 Atk/SA EVs.

Turn 1:

Ho-oh used Sacred Fire. 252/252 HP/Def Suicune switched in.

Suicune took 18-21% damage.

Ho-oh Used Thunderbolt! Bulky Water loses 46-54% HP (62-75% total) Bulky Water used Toxic!

Yeah, Ho-oh has big problems with bulky waters... What with his 2HKO them with LO Thunderbolt and all, totally legitimate on a more sweeperish set.

So yeah, it beats Ho-oh "99% of the time" as long as that Ho-oh set isn't packing a boosted Thunderbolt via an item or Calm Mind. And you don't take a critical hit.

And the reason Ho-oh depletes Stone Edge's PP is PRESSURE. Your whole post was essentially an ill-conceived troll that showed no knowledge of Ho-oh. Great job.

 

[Skyshroud]

I think the main issue with all of the counter-arguments as to why Ho-oh is uber are far too specific. If Person A makes a good argument, Person B just goes, "Well, if I have pokemon x with moves a/b/etc., then I can handle it." Unfortunately, that's not good enough. Ho-oh can do multiple things. Every time would have to carry a couple of pokemon with gimmick sets just to be able to ensure that you could beat Ho-oh if it came up. Does this sound familiar? Oh yeah--Garchomp. The problem with Garchomp was that you had to carry too many pokemon with too many specific moves just to deal with 1 threat. That's not a healthy metagame.

 

[Kietharr]

Yeah you can argue that anything is OU if you're just pointing out weaknesses, Rayquaza gets raped by ice shards, Giratina can't wall LO DD Salamence anymore, pretty much all kyogre variants get raped by Ludicolo, Hell, Darkrai is countered completely by a scarfed Primape, does that make Darkrai a good candidate for OU?

Of course Ho-oh has counters and checks in OU, just about every uber does. The problem is that you'll need to pigeonhole your team in order to counter it and you will be building teams around it like we built teams around Garchomp.

 

[weezy]

Well you have to really ask yourself a pretty raw question in thiscase. Despite a powerhouse attack backing it up (with a crappy physical movepool) Ho-Oh is meant to be a wall. Sure in Ubers Giratina and Lugia outshine it in almost every way imaginable, but think about moving it lower. First of all, Stealth Rocks is just all out rampant, Rock attacks are on almost every physical sweeper, Bulky waters are really popular and thanks to Gyarados, Lighting attacks are high in number as well. Frankly, I think it would even do worse in OU.
Also, I know it's just Pokemon, but think about the point that makes. Aside from of course the Pikachu, Charizard, Venasaur and Blastoise from RBY and FR LG, all cover pokemon have always held a solid place in uber (Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia and both forms of Giratina). All those are supposed to be made to be "the pokemon of the game". A symbolically strong pokemon that can outmatch any pokemon from their respective game. To put Ho-Oh below Garchomp is just... I don't even know the word.
I see where you're coming from though. When it comes to Uber, Ho-Oh sucks. In my opinion,with it's typing, and other attributes plus the strategies implemented in OU, Ho-Oh best suits BL.

 

[1059860]

i'm not completely against testing ho-oh in OU, but i am 99% positive that it will prove too powerful for the standard environment.
even if it has to switch into stealth rocks it can easily roost off the damage.
plus sacred fire is an amazing move, almost nothing can in on it safely, except heatran (who's killed by EQ), guts users(who i will cover later) and bulky waters (who cant touch Ho-oh's crazy sp. def).

its seems that because of ho-oh's awesome special defense it would be ideal use physical attackers against it, however sacred fire's burn rate will severely hurt any physical attacker. well what about guts users, lets take a look at all ou and bl guts users and see how they pair up against ho-oh.
i'll assume adamant 252hp/252attack/4speed on ho-oh and the standard set for the guts pokemon.

Heracross- sacred fire does 152%-178.5% to 4/0 heracross so it is definately not a counter

hariyama- sacred fire does 39.7%-46.7% to 76/252+ hariyama and aerial ace does 48.2%-56.7%. A possible counter if ho-oh doesnt carry a boosting item but if you add life orb to those calcs it is an easy 2ko even with only sacred fire.

machamp- sacred fire does 56.8%-66.7% to 252/0 machamp easy 2ko meaning machamp is definately not a counter

ursaring-sacred fire does 59.6%-70.1% another easy 2k0

as i said earlier i wouldnt completely be against testing him (i wouldnt be against testing mewtwo either) but im pretty sure that we have more important things to do

Hariyama is not safe to STAB Aerial Ace.

 

[weezy]

Yeah you can argue that anything is OU if you're just pointing out weaknesses, Rayquaza gets raped by ice shards, Giratina can't wall LO DD Salamence anymore, pretty much all kyogre variants get raped by Ludicolo, Hell, Darkrai is countered completely by a scarfed Primape, does that make Darkrai a good candidate for OU?

Of course Ho-oh has counters and checks in OU, just about every uber does. The problem is that you'll need to pigeonhole your team in order to counter it and you will be building teams around it like we built teams around Garchomp.

Yeah but the point is how big the problems or the holes are. Ice shard and other Ice attacks are like a speed bump, where if put aside, Rayquaza would simply destroy OU. Ludicolo and Primeape are more BL/UU pokemon, that are almtos never seen in OU. But look at Ho-Ohs setbacks. From my experience, I'd say 65-75% of users open the match by laying down a layer of Stealth Rocks, 95% have at least one pokemon with a Rock attack, and really, Ho-Oh can't do much damage.

Garchomp is just out of the equation. Like you said, people built teams around it because it was so hard to cope with. It ruined the metagame. Out of all ubers however, Ho-Oh is the most useless one. It is the one that get's beat in every purpose you can use it as. Special walls will be beat you in forms of Giratina and Lugia, Garchomp, Groudon and Rayquaza will make your attempt at a physical sweep look like a joke, Palkia, Dialga Kyogre and Mewtwo are all Special sweepers that are better. Hell even that joke of an uber Mew is an effective baton passer if used correctly.

 

[Cynthia]

4x Stealth Rock weaks are bad, but Ho-Oh probably has enough advantanges to make up for them. Running Ho-Oh as a lead is a good start to countering SR damage. While testing Ho-Oh might not be bad idea, its tier status is somewhat uncertain, but there are other things to take care of first.

 

[Chou Toshio]

That's a good point Cynthia. Put Hidden Power Grass/Mega Drain on it (for swampert) and I don't think any of the currenly popular lead pokemon barring Aerodactyle, and maybe tyranitar, can beat it.

 

[Farewell]

Ho-oh Stall @ Leftovers
Nature- Bold
EVs- 248 HP / 148 SpD / 112 Spe

~ Sacred Fire
~ Roost
~ Substitute
~ Earthquake


The set is also a much more durable physical version of Sleep-Talk Heatran, trading a Fire Immunity for a Ground Immunity and Base 130 Special Attack for Base 130 Attack.

Compare Ho-oh's 106 HP / 90 Def / 154 SpD to Heatran's 91 HP / 106 Def / 106 SpD.
Looks like Ho-oh swaps Defense for HP compared to Heatran, and gets much better Special Defense.

(P.S. If I remember correctly Earthquake is a much more common Physical move in all tiers than Stone Edge, with 100% accuracy, and more PP. Remember Heatran is also 4x weak Earthquake, relies on Rest for healing, and cannot Pressure-stall out EQ like Ho-oh can Pressure-stall Stone Edge, yet people still fit Heatran into their teams).


The Speed is the same as the Stall-Moltres set, so it outruns Adament Breloom (whom Ho-oh can effectively counter by the way *barring Spore*, being resistant to both its STAB moves), and it can outspeed non-Scarf Tyranitar.

Ho-oh also has an advantage over Moltres in that it can use 2 offensive moves instead of 1 and a Status move, since Sacred Fire is fairly reliable for Burning opponents (even moreso than Lava Plume).

Roost is preferred over Recover since your opponent will more likely Stone Edge you than Earthquake you, plus it removes your Electric weakness, and gives you an Ice resistance, (keep in mind many people pointed out Snorlax has Thick Fat, well after using Roost, Ho-oh effectively has Thick Fat through its Fire-typing).


Ho-oh is a great counter to Jirachi, and Celebi, especially Calm Mind versions (whom don't pack Stealth Rock and Thunderwave), considering it uses super-effective Physical attacks to bypass their Special Defense boosts.

Ho-oh is also a great counter to Regice and Registeel, two Pokemon commonly thought of as counters to Skymin, and if it predicts an Explosion, Substitute provides it with a buffer without having to switch out and worry about Stealth Rocks.

Ho-oh works great to counter Heracross, Skymin, can come in on Bronzong's Gyro Ball and Earthquakes, and works perfectly to counter Mamoswine 3/4 of the time (Comes in on Ice Shard, Earthquake, and Close Combat with ease).

Even Magnezone has to fear Ho-oh with its massive Special Defense, and Sacred Fire (Magnet Rise versions). Plus it can Roost behind a Substitute to remove its Electric weakness, and to prevent Thunderwave since it outspeeds Magnezone. Even if Magnezone uses Substitute on Ho-o's switch in, and tries to stall out Ho-oh's Sacred Fire with Substitute+Thunderwave, Ho-oh can use Earthquake and save its Sacred Fire PP for later.


Tentacruel would also work nicely with Ho-oh by setting up Toxic Spikes, (helping Ho-oh Stall), using Rapid Spin, resisting Surf, and taking faster Toxics (before Ho-oh can use Substitute).

Ho-oh would return the favor by switching into opposing Earthquakes, and W-o-ws.

Yes, both are weak to Thunderbolt, but others mentioned a Donphan and Ho-oh pairing and they are both weak to Surf / Waterfall.


Overall, Ho-oh is neither too weak nor too strong for OU, Milotic, Rhyperior, and Suicune serve as perfect counters, as does Roar Swampert, and Tyranitar. Infact, Flygon and Gliscor can come in on all of Ho-oh's attacks (especially Earthquake and Thunderbolt) with their Resistance or Defense stats to take Sacred Fire, and Roost off the damage.

This of course, isn't enough to make Ho-oh too weak by any means as it can still counter Weavile, Scizor, Metagross (either force a Switch or an Explosion, effectively causing a switch or KO), and even Heatran with Earthquake, something Heatran cannot do with Earth Power (unless Ho-oh Roosts, but even so).

The fact that Ho-oh has such mighty HP and Special Defense means that even a Heatran with Overheat boosted with Flash Fire will only produce a 315 Base Power move / 2 = 157 base Power move against Ho-oh's mighty Special Defense.

That's like a Ursaring using Brick Break against a Registeel, it simply isn't doing all that much in the end.

 

[bullfrogegg8]

I have been using ho-oh for a very long time in ubers very effectively. The fact is two switch ins is all ho-oh needs. Even in ubers a choice band ho-oh will sweep most teams for me. If garchomp is uber, most definably ho-oh isn't.

 

[cim]

Ho-oh is Uber. I skimmed your argument and found basic flaws in it that I really don't want to address right now as I'm at the end of one of the worst days in my life and I'd quickly get hotheaded, but it's not completely right.

It's base stats, let's start with those. Every single stat is above average. It gets STAB Sacred Fire which burns the Stone Edgers who hope to OHKO it. You know the line "even 100% counters become 80% counters with Chomp?" Something very similar goes on with Sacred Fire. Ho-oh doesn't even need to predict; half the time it can get away with spamming Scared Fire on Tyranitar switchins. So the number one way of killing it is completely shut down. Not to mention the prospect of a Choice Banded Earthquake.

Sacred Fire really is the key to Ho-Oh's Uberness. when you consider Ho-oh's ridiculous 154 base Special Defense that make unSTABed Thunderbolts 3HKOs, and the fact that physically based responses can be lit on fire, you have problems.

Viable counters to Ho-oh include, say, Suicune? I THINK it's a 3HKO with Earthquake and Surf is never OHKOing Ho-oh. Uh, Rock resists Fire and has a 4x STAB, right? Except for Lunatone though every Rock type is a primarily physical attacker, so Sacred Fire fucks that up. Uh... yeah. I can't think of a single counter not screwed up half the time or otherwise beaten thanks to a Special Defense stat that's absolutely insane.

Now now what about revenge killers? These are what really natter, right? Okay, well... Aerodactyl is faster and has a move that OHKOs, as does Scarf Heracross. That's really it though. Not a lot CAN OHKO Ho-oh, and it's going to need to be significantly weakened before being taken down.

HEY WAIT STEALTH ROCK CHRIS

Yeah, what about it? Stealth Rock takes one turn to set up, and any team without it would face near certain Ho-oh death. Meanwhile, the game will degenerate into "who can get SR out on the field and keep it there" with constant switches to Ghosts, Spinners, and the like. It's a fight you can't afford to lose, though, or else CB Ho-oh will ruin you.

That's basically what goes on in my head when I think Uber. 680 base stats and a great movepool with tanky stats can't all be nulified by one attack.

Oh great, hhjj, uh, can you please stop theorymonning sets? I don't mean to slam you or anything, but so far it doesn't seem like you've been any good at theorymon sets. Plus that set has a few problems (who would ever use Magnezone as a Ho-oh counter, why Def EVs if you have Sacred Fire, etc.)

Upon further inspection, most of your post is wrong. One little part.:

Overall, Ho-oh is neither too weak nor too strong for OU, Milotic, Rhyperior, and Suicune serve as perfect counters, as does Roar Swampert, and Tyranitar. Infact, Flygon and Gliscor can come in on all of Ho-oh's attacks (especially Earthquake and Thunderbolt) with their Resistance or Defense stats to take Sacred Fire, and Roost off the damage.

Milotic is the closest thing to a "perfect" counter, and LO Thunderbolt is a big problem. There's a coin flip chance Rhyperior will be burnt and thus completely useless, not to mention that Rhyperior is horribly uncommon. Suicune can be 2HKO'd by LO THunderbolt and a CB set can 3HKO. Roar Swampert is maybe a "counter" if it weren't for the burn rate. Tyranitar gets burnt or worse Choice Banded Earthquaked. Flygon gets Burnt (and Specs DM won't ever 2HKO), Gliscor gets Burnt and doesn't resist Fire. You just made up most of that.

Oh, and guys, Hariyama is not a Ho-oh counter. It's either 2HKO'd by Sacred Fire or Burns hurt it, so please stop putting my beloved Hariyama up to the task of countering an Uber.

 

[Bran]

I love this question, because as we all know, Ho-oh is possibly the most useless uber pokemon in the game. It was more understandable back in the past 2 generations as why he was in the uber tier, but with the 90%+ usage of stealth rock in this generation, it puts an immense hampering into his value. In addition, more ubers have surfaced and outclassed him and his primary roles. As we have seen in the tiers, other pokemon have been downgraded solely because of Stealth Rock, such as Charizard, Articuno (which is the only legendary pokemon in UU!), and Moltres. So why not move Ho-oh??


However, unlike the other pokemon that have been hampered by Stealth Rock, Ho-oh is still too strong of a pokemon to be demoted. It has the same total base stats as Lugia and Mewtwo, which no pokemon in OU comes close; except Slaking, which can only move every other turn, and Regigigas, which has its attack and speed cut in half for five turns. So statistically, it's too strong for OU.


Outside of the Stealth Rock, Ho-oh other main weakness comes from his physical defense. I am not including its speed as a weakness, becuase with all these raw stats, 90 base speed is just as low as its defense, and 90 speed is not necessarly a bad number. A +speed nature version will outspeed all 100 base speed neutral speed pokemon, which is quite nice on a pokemon so powerful! It is weak to rock, and there are more physical rock attacks than special rock attacks. However, it's signature move is what makes up for it. Sacred Fire has the 50/50 chance of burning an opponent's pokemon. With those odds and it's high offensive stats, it is very difficult and not very safe to switch into Ho-oh, and this includes the bulky water types. Also, it's special defense is 4th to Shuckle, Regice, and Deoxys-D; yet, it has a much higher base HP compared to those three. So bulky waters will have a hard time 2HKO'ing Ho-oh, unless a large amount of EV's in special attack are invested. Also, as an added bonus to its immense stats, it gets Pressure as its ability! Combined with roost, this will stall-out an opponent's Stone-Edge, and eliminating one of Ho-oh's top counters. Healing with roost gives it an Earthquake weakness, but it also eliminates its electric weakness and cuts the weakness of Rock from 4x to 2x.



Lastly, the movepool is immense! With offensive stats very close to Salamance, it is very hard to predict which movepool you will be facing. This is one of the many reasons why pokemon like Infernape, Deoxys-S, and Lucario are so powerful; and I'm sure that Ho-oh would easily fit in that category. Not even its signature move Sacred Fire is necessary in all of its effective move sets. The following moves are mentioned in the ho-oh analysis as effective moves (not including from the 'other options section'):

Sacred Fire
Earthquake
Punishment
Return
Overheat
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Thunder
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Ice
Earthquake
Calm Mind
Recover
Roost
Toxic
Light Screen


So from that page, 16 moves are considered very effective for Ho-oh, not to mention other moves too, such as Substitute, HP Grass, Giga Drain, Whilrwind, Thunder Wave, Reflect, and the effective combo of Rest/Sleep Talk!! Very few pokemon gets this diverse of a move-pool!


I love him, and I have since G/S, but sadly, he is just too strong to be allowed in OU, yet possibly the weakest Uber pokemon. It sucks to be Ho-oh on Smogon.....................

 

[TVboyCanti]

The only truly legit argument I've seen for Ho-ohr's testing is that taking 50% damage from stealth rock significantly compromises it's ludicrously high base stats and legendary movepool. All the other arguments have big flaws in their reasoning, that I will probably rip apart later for shits and giggles.

Now, I have to ask, why again would we want to add something to OU that would further centralize the game around a move that is semi-seriously being considered for suspect testing?

 

[Farewell]

hhjj, I don't mean to slam you or anything, but so far it doesn't seem like you've been any good at theorymon sets. Plus that set has a few problems (who would ever use Magnezone as a Ho-oh counter, why Def EVs if you have Sacred Fire, etc.)

Upon further inspection, most of your post is wrong. One little part.:


Milotic is the closest thing to a "perfect" counter, and LO Thunderbolt is a big problem. There's a coin flip chance Rhyperior will be burnt and thus completely useless, not to mention that Rhyperior is horribly uncommon. Suicune can be 2HKO'd by LO THunderbolt and a CB set can 3HKO. Roar Swampert is maybe a "counter" if it weren't for the burn rate. Tyranitar gets burnt or worse Choice Banded Earthquaked. Flygon gets Burnt (and Specs DM won't ever 2HKO), Gliscor gets Burnt and doesn't resist Fire. You just made up most of that.

Oh, and guys, Hariyama is not a Ho-oh counter. It's either 2HKO'd by Sacred Fire or Burns hurt it, so please stop putting my beloved Hariyama up to the task of countering an Uber.

I was talking directly about the set I provided, not all sets Ho-oh has ever been able to use; simply the one I listed. This further demonstrates your "Theorymon" that Ho-oh is able to defeat everything, just as long as it uses the right set, well can't that be said about most things?

Milotic, Suicune, etc. were used as examples of "perfect counters" against the set I proposed, so they don't worry about Thunderbolt, since Ho-oh only has EQ and Sacred Fire, which it can Rest off the burn

With no Attack EVs, I am sure Gliscor can withstand even Sacred Fire... off 296 Attack, and it Roosts faster than Ho-oh attacks. It's Immunity to Thunderbolt was only used to show that it can also come in on another move I didn't include in my Moveset, not that I expect all the other Pokemon I listed to be able to do, it was more of a sidenote. Same with Flygon, so no, I did not just "Make it up."

There is also a 50% chance they wont be Burned if it even hits, and a 5% chance Sacred Fire will miss. In fact, for Gliscor under Sandstorm conditions with Sand Veil, the chance it will successfully land, and then Burn is even less than 40%, it's 38%.

As for both Flygon and Gliscor, they will more likely be switching into predictable EQs, if the player can help it, rather than Sacred Fire.


I will admit I put the Defense EVs where I should have invested in Special Defense, so I fixed that.

I chose Tyranitar and Rhyperior because they have 2 of the Highest Attack Stats in the game not including the Uber Tier (nor Slaking / Regigas), and a STAB 4x Effective Stone Edge, where even under a Burn would technically still do 2x the normal damage, while resisting the STAB Sacred Fire.

Swampert is automatically a counter because by "Counter Standards" a counter "Can come in easily, threaten an opponent, and/or forces a switch" which is exactly what Roar would do since Swampert is guaranteed to survive, and Ho-oh isn't "Taunting".

I mean, Skarmary didn't have Roost in the Adv Generation, so it couldn't heal without Rest, didn't deal much damage, and could be Burned (by W-o-w Dusclops, etc), but it was still a counter to many things simply because it had Whirlwind, therefore forcing switches even if the opponent was a Flying or Levitating Pokemon that was Immune to Spikes damage. (Say the opponent was Aerodactyl and couldn't do much to Skarmary, even though Skarmary couldn't hurt it either and only WW it, Skarmary was still a counter for forcing a switch.).

 

[Shinryu]

Well, if Deoxys-S can sneak into OU and Garchomp be banned to Ubers, I see no reason to at least not try Ho-Oh in OU.

 

[morning storm]

I believe he is saying "I'd rather have a move removed from the metagame which allows more pokemon to compete in the OU tier then to have a single uber pokemon moved into OU just to have another pokemon in the OU teir".

thank you chill

 

[Droideka88]

It is really late over here and I don't intend on making a productive argument for right now but personally those like Ho-oh and Garchomp are "weak" Ubers. At one hand, they're too powerful for OU; on the other hand, they don't stand out in Ubers compared to other Ubers. I know the philosophy that strength or weaknesses matters not in a particulary tier. It depends on how "broken" each Pokemon would be in a specific tier. That's how I intrepret it.

Here's my small argument. If worse comes to worse, just make a Semi-Uber tier. Garchomp, Shaymin (Sky Forme), Ho-oh, S-Deoxys, and probably a few top tier OU and low tier Ubers woud work excellent as long as not too many Pokemon I've mentioned are very broken for such a possibility.

Uber - Semi-Uber - OU..

That's how I see it.

 

[TVboyCanti]

Nobody cares about the health of the Uber tier, because it revolves around 14 pokemon and it's not really a real tier, it's just the only format that banned pokes can be played in.

That is why it is Smogon's policy to ignore a pokemon's usefulness in Ubers to determine it's place in OU.

 

[Seeker]

The uber tier isn't supposed to be balanced anyway. It's a place where things too powerful for OU are put. There is no reason why they have to be viable in uber play to stay there.

 

[haunter]

Yeah you can argue that anything is OU if you're just pointing out weaknesses, Rayquaza gets raped by ice shards, Giratina can't wall LO DD Salamence anymore, pretty much all kyogre variants get raped by Ludicolo, Hell, Darkrai is countered completely by a scarfed Primape, does that make Darkrai a good candidate for OU?

Of course Ho-oh has counters and checks in OU, just about every uber does. The problem is that you'll need to pigeonhole your team in order to counter it and you will be building teams around it like we built teams around Garchomp.

I completely agree with you. The fact that it has some counters in OU is not a valid argument to test\unban it. Allowing Ho-oh in OU would mean that every team should carry at least 2 specific counters for it, and if I recall correctly, garchomp was banned for that reason.

 

[Kietharr]

It is really late over here and I don't intend on making a productive argument for right now but personally those like Ho-oh and Garchomp are "weak" Ubers. At one hand, they're too powerful for OU; on the other hand, they don't stand out in Ubers compared to other Ubers. I know the philosophy that strength or weaknesses matters not in a particulary tier. It depends on how "broken" each Pokemon would be in a specific tier. That's how I intrepret it.

Here's my small argument. If worse comes to worse, just make a Semi-Uber tier. Garchomp, Shaymin (Sky Forme), Ho-oh, S-Deoxys, and probably a few top tier OU and low tier Ubers woud work excellent as long as not too many Pokemon I've mentioned are very broken for such a possibility.

Uber - Semi-Uber - OU..

That's how I see it.

Ubers aren't ment to be a balanced tier, it's a ban tier for OU. If it is too strong for OU, it is uber regardless of its comparative strength in ubers. FYI Garchomp is actually quite good in ubers too, scarfchomp rips things up and Lugia is still the only truly safe switch against Yachechomp. Ho-oh is indeed pretty useless as there are things like Kyogre running around everywhere that rape him and Fire/flying is pretty shitty as far as defensive typing goes.

To Weezy, keep in mind that Rayquaza only has about 20 more base attack than Garchomp. Non LO DDrayquaza is actually going to put out less damage than a yachechomp. LODD sets aren't doing that much more damage and are extremely vulnerable to shards/scarfed ice attacks. Ice attacks are more than a speed bump.

Also, keep in mind that being the worst uber is like being the worst player on the Globetrotters. Ho-oh is still a hugely powerful pokemon, there is a reason he was put in ubers and there are reasons that he is staying there. If he came down the game would turn into contest of keeping SR up the best. Rotom form/spinner usage would skyrocket and SR would be carried on multiple pokemon per team simply because you can't afford for it to go down, as if it does Ho-oh gets an easy switch against just about anything on his huge defenses.

 

[Kira]

Here's my small argument. If worse comes to worse, just make a Semi-Uber tier. Garchomp, Shaymin (Sky Forme), Ho-oh, S-Deoxys, and probably a few top tier OU and low tier Ubers woud work excellent as long as not too many Pokemon I've mentioned are very broken for such a possibility.

Uber - Semi-Uber - OU..

That's how I see it.

Ubers is not a real tier. Why do people not understand that? Uber is a ban list. What the fuck is the point of having a Semi-Ban list?

 

[Jibaku]

Ubers is a real tier, because otherwise OU wouldn't be a tier either, as it is a banlist of UU.

 

[C. Falcon]

Ubers is a real tier, because otherwise OU wouldn't be a tier either, as it is a banlist of UU.

Isn't that BL?

 

[RaikouLover]

Ho-oh? OU? Hahaha

Nothing should be able to survive two STAB super-effective Thunderbolts from a max special attack Zapdos... yeah.

Its funny because Ho-oh can recover HP faster than bulky waters can dish out. He has the best Fire move in the game, a sexy ass movepool, and Defensive stats out the wazoo, and attack stats rivaling Salamence. Ho-oh could potentially be used in OU.. but the quesiton is... why? I don't want to have Choice Specs Jolteon on my team just to kill the damn thing (who is in danger of Earthquake anyway and needs residual damage to KO.)