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Item tiering thread and discussion

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Diatom, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    Similar to forestflamerunner's ability tiering thread thread, I made a thread for item tiers. It uses the same ranking system as the ability tiering thread.

    S-Tier:

    Air Balloon
    Black Sludge
    Choice Band
    Choice Scarf
    Choice Specs
    Damp Rock
    DeepSeaScale
    DeepSeaTooth
    Eviolite
    Griseous Orb
    Heat Rock
    Leftovers
    Life Orb
    Light Ball
    Metal Powder
    Quick Powder
    Soul Dew (unreleased)
    Thick Club

    A-Tier:

    BrightPowder (banned under evasion clause)
    Custap Berry (unreleased)
    Expert Belt
    Flying Gem
    Focus Sash
    Lax Incense (banned under evasion clause)
    Liechi Berry (unreleased)
    Light Clay
    Lum Berry
    Micle Berry (unreleased)
    Petaya Berry (unreleased)
    Red Card
    Rocky Helmet
    Salac Berry (unreleased)
    Shed Shell
    Shell Bell
    Sitrus Berry
    Smooth Rock
    White Herb

    B-Tier:

    Absorb Bulb
    Adamant Orb
    Babiri Berry
    Bug Gem
    Cell Battery
    Charti Berry
    Chesto Berry
    Chilan Berry
    Chople Berry
    Coba Berry
    Colbur Berry
    Dark Gem
    Dragon Gem
    Eject Button
    Electric Gem
    Fighting Gem
    Fire Gem
    Flame Orb
    Ghost Gem
    Grass Gem
    Ground Gem
    Haban Berry
    Ice Gem
    Icy Rock
    Kasib Berry
    Kebia Berry
    Lustrous Orb
    Metronome
    Normal Gem
    Occa Berry
    Passho Berry
    Payapa Berry
    Persim Berry
    Poison Gem
    Psychic Gem
    Quick Claw
    Rindo Berry
    Rock Gem
    Shuca Berry
    Steel Gem
    Tanga Berry
    Toxic Orb
    Wacan Berry
    Water Gem
    Yache Berry

    C-Tier:

    Apicot Berry (unreleased)
    Aspear Berry
    Big Root
    Black Belt/Fist Plate
    BlackGlasses/Dread Plate
    Charcoal/Flame Plate
    Cheri Berry
    Dragon Fang/Draco Plate
    Enigma Berry
    Ganlon Berry (unreleased)
    Grip Claw
    Hard Stone/Stone Plate
    Jaboca Berry
    King's Rock
    Lucky Punch
    Magnet/Zap Plate
    Mental Herb
    Metal Coat/Iron Plate
    Miracle Seed/Meadow Plate
    Mystic Water/Splash Plate
    NeverMeltIce/Icicle Plate
    Odd Incense
    Pecha Berry
    Poison Barb/Toxic Plate
    Power Herb
    Rawst Berry
    Rock Incense
    Rose Incense
    Rowap Berry
    Sea Incense
    Sharp Beak/Sky Plate
    Silk Scarf
    SilverPowder/Insect Plate
    Soft Sand/Earth Plate
    Spell Tag/Spooky Plate
    Starf Berry
    Stick
    TwistedSpoon/Mind Plate
    Wave Incense
    Zoom Lens

    D-Tier:

    Aguav Berry
    Berry Juice
    Binding Band
    Destiny Knot
    Figy Berry
    Float Stone
    Focus Band
    Full Incense
    Iapapa Berry
    Iron Ball
    King's Rock
    Lagging Tail
    Lansat Berry
    Leppa Berry
    Macho Brace
    Mago Berry
    Muscle Band
    Oran Berry
    Power Anklet
    Power Band
    Power Belt
    Power Bracer
    Power Lens
    Power Weight
    Razor Claw
    Razor Fang
    Scope Lens
    Wide Lens
    Wiki Berry
    Wise Glasses

    E-Tier:

    Amulet Coin
    Burn Drive
    Chill Drive
    Douse Drive
    Dragon Scale
    Dubious Disc
    Electirizer
    Exp. Share
    Luck Incense
    Lucky Egg
    Magmarizer
    Oval Stone
    Prism Scale
    Protector
    Pure Incense
    Reaper Cloth
    Ring Target
    Shock Drive
    Smoke Ball
    Sticky Barb
    Up-Grade

    What do you guys think of this list, and how could it be changed?
  2. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    It may be helpful to put the descriptions of the tiers into this thread as well, because switching between the two pages just for the definitions could get annoying. Also I feel like some of the definitions may need to be adapted a little bit to properly fit the "items" category.

    From a brief look I believe that Brightpowder and Lax Incense should be in S-Tier, as they were so good they reduced the competitive nature of the game, resulting in a ban. Going by forestflamerunner's definitions, I would also argue that Eject Button and Red Card should be B-Tier, as they require specialized movesets/EV spreads to be utilized best. I also believe that Metronome should be C-Tier as it does have use with moves like Rock Blast, but is generally outclassed by Choice Item's or Life Orb.

    Gem's and Plate's seem similar and I want to say that they should be in the same category, but I can see how an argument can be made otherwise. Perhaps some more discussion on these items?
  3. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I also have to support merging gems and plates, as they do basically the same thing, just slap them on a needed pokemon you want. I think weakness berries should also be tiered the same, yes losing your "normal weakness" is pretty stupid but the rest are pretty much valid and the same thing.
  4. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
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    Not true, they were banned mostly for being entirely luck-oriented. They're really not that powerful in a ladder format and almost no serious players actually used them outside of troll teams and random stuff like Sand Veil hax abuse.

    I'll take a look at the list itself when I get back from dinner.
  5. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    I think the weather rocks should be brought down to A tier, with Icy Rock being brought down to C tier. Icy Rock is almost entirely useless, as Hail lacks any real boost abilities that warrant an item and moveslot. Sun/Rain/Sand all can in certain tiers, but in a lot of tiers, they aren't needed or used.

    Items are a particularly difficult thing to class. Things like Deepsea items are good for only one Pokemon, but are really S tier? Not to mention that that things like Trick/Fling make a lot of items better or worse. I really thin that with the exception of a handful of items (Leftovers, Life Orb, Eviolite), then every item is only as good as the reason its used on the Pokemon its on.
  6. Somebody Anonymous

    Somebody Anonymous

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    Why is King's Rock both C and D?
  7. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I'll be frank: I don't think items should be tiered at all.

    Why? Because items don't work like abilities and Pokemon; they're something anything can equip and are ALWAYS highly dependent on the set being run. It's hard to tier an item when they can be utterly useless on some sets but absolutely vital on others.

    Besides this just seems to be a jump on the bandwagon. There's been a LOT of tiering threads lately (mostly in OI I admit, which you might've not even seen) but the success of the ability teiring thread alone is enough that I'm surprised there haven't been imitators yet.

    Not every aspect of Pokemon needs to be tiered. What are going to tier next? Types? Moves? Status conditions?? We just don't need any more of this.
  8. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    Following the same format, there is no E tier. F tier instead.
    S tier comments:
    DeepSeaScale should be D tier. It's essentially useless on Clamperl.
    Icy Rock and Smooth Rock don't belong in S tier. I mean seriously, what use does manual Sandstorm/Hail have? I can't see it feasibly working in any tier. Period. They belong in C tier.
    Another ridiculous pair in S tier is Metal Powder/Quick Powder. They're useless even on Ditto. Ditto's only viable use is Choice Scarf Imposter, which is not even out yet. Barely D tier IMO.

    A tier comments
    This.
    Also, going by forestflamerunner's definitions, Chesto Berry should be B-Tier, as it requires Rest to be effective. By the same token, Flame Orb should be B-Tier, as it essentially requires Guts (or Quick Feet) to be effective. Toxic Orb should go to B-Tier as well, as it essentially requires Poison Heal (and somewhat Guts) to be effective. Micle Berry in A-Tier? I would argue that it's C-Tier at the very best, as it really doesn't help anything other than a Pokemon with a low-accuracy move, but even those would rather hold another, more useful item.

    Will add more to A-Tier and add more tiers when I have time.
  9. Arterial

    Arterial

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    I like the idea of tiering items, but I think there can be some changes in the tiers.
    Items such as DeepSeaScale+Tooth, Light Ball, Metal+Quick Powder, Soul Dew, Thick Club and all the weather rocks are very situational. Each item only affects one/few Pokes, meaning that it can't really help the majority of the tier. I guess Flying Gem can be used for Acrobatics, but I'm not sure if it should remain in the highest tier of the items. And Silk Scarf in C? I think more Pokes can benefit from Silk Scarf (for example, Ampibom, Arceus, Linoone) than any of the aforementioned items. I've never even seen Shell Bell, nor a Quick Claw in competitive use, as the recovery is very unreliable, while the 30% chance of striking first is simply too gimmicky. I think Lum Berry can make it to S-Tier, as nearly all boosting sweepers carry Lum Berry in order to negate a status.
  10. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    S-Tier means an item is so good it either:
    a) dominates the metagame in a way that it cannot be ignored
    b) makes an otherwise useless Pokemon/move useful
    c) [I added this] Makes an already good Pokemon skyrocket in usefulness
    Thick Club makes Marowak somewhat useful. DeepSeaTooth makes Clamperl much better in Little Cup (though Eviolite is still viable). All other things I agree with though.
  11. darthscyther123

    darthscyther123

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    This might be too vague of a requirement.Just after a quick check of the May PO stats, you could argue that Toxic Orb belongs in S, since with it, Gliscor has climbed from 27th to 9th (from 7% to 15%) from 4th gen to 5th gen.
  12. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Toxic Orb is not S class. It is a situational item that only works well for a few specific Pokemon (Toxic Heal / Guts / Quick Feet / Gengar with Trick???) But honestly, I agree with Jimera. This is just not going to work.
  13. 420

    420

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    Why not just usage-based tiers?

    Choice items/leftovers/life orb are on everything so they should obv. be top tier. Deepseascale/tooth are never used so they should be bottom tier. pokemon specific items should probably be lower if the item in question isn't good enough to make the pokemon in question competitive. So in GSC thick club would be top tier since it made marowak competitive but in gen 5 it should be lower.
  14. Lebron

    Lebron

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    That's really true, I've always been interested in the best pokemon and the best abilities, but items are just utilized to make movesets more effective, basicly the S tier is all we need to know.
    You put a lot of work into this though, so good job :P, but please don't go through the trouble off tiering other things!
  15. Aurora

    Aurora haip haip haip ha-ho
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    item tiering is a terrible idea
    as jimera0 mentioned, they're far too dependent on whichever set the equipping pokemon is using and can be really useless in some situations
    also it just makes everything so much more difficult and cluttered
  16. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Yeah I agree with this post. The shear usage of these items shows how good they are.
  17. Cobraroll

    Cobraroll
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    Many items listed are limited to only one Pokémon as well. While I'm sure Gengar would appreciate a Soul Dew boost, the item only works for Latias/Latios, and is thus rendered completely useless for the 647 other Pokémon. Same goes for Stick, Lucky Punch, Thick Club, DeepSeaTooth, etc... I'd say, put them in a separate tier.

    Black Sludge is also detrimental to all types but Poison. Yes, it can be Tricked, but that's as far as it usage goes otherwise. This should at least be noted somewhere.
  18. darthscyther123

    darthscyther123

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    I agree, since more competitive items would naturally float to the top.
  19. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Well you can tier items seeing how it's more logical to run Focus Sash which guarantees it at least means you survive one turn assuming the conditions are suited. Where as the likes of Focus Band only activates on chance per attack.

    Explanations describing why this item belongs in that tier will promote a fresh topic such as this one. It will also be helpful for viewers willing to contribute to the threads' discussion, that is if there is something to respond to from the OP's original choices; or you could update the existing thread with some of the replies already posted in mind.
  20. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    I agree with the above. It would be a bit logical to do this, since I personally don't get what makes the DeepSeaScale a S-tier considering the only recipitent is Clamperl and how Focus Sash isn't S-tier considering how common and viable it is. There may be a reason, but I'm not seeing it...

    Stuff like the Thick Club, DeepSeaScale, Both Powders, and the Light Ball belong to mediocre Pokemon, which makes them see almost no use. Conversely, the Focus Sash and Air Baloon tend to see common usage due to the offensive forces that roam the tier, even if they can be complete failures.
  21. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    I will try to go over all the items in question:

    BrightPowder/Lax Incense: IMO, these are not S-tier because they will not come into play more often than they will in a match. When they do come into play, they are game-changing, but they simply don't enough to warrant S-tier.

    Eject Button: OK, you convinced me, this is B-tier.

    Red Card: I still believe this is A-tier, because it is always nice to get a free roar/whirlwind on something, and can often be game-changing. Something sweeping your team? Not anymore.

    Metronome: Moved to B-tier; I don't know what I was thinking.

    Gems/Plates: I still believe that gems should be higher than plates, because the boost they provide is noticeably more substantial. Even over the course of a match, gems are usually the better option.

    Weather rocks: Sure, in OU these are useless, but in lower tiers they are some of the best items available. I've used Damp Rock Rain Dance Bronzong, and it absolutely destroyed with Kingdra. Icy Rock moved to B, Smooth Rock moved to A, Damp Rock and Heat Rock stay S.

    King's Rock: Oops, should only be C.

    Exclusive Items: I am looking at these items as they would be if EVERY pokémon had access to them. Sure, DeepSeaScale might be useless on Clamperl, but think if something like Gliscor had it.

    Chesto Berry: Moved to B-tier

    Flame Orb/Toxic Orb: Moved to B-tier

    Micle Berry: Give this thing to sub Porygon2 or something and you suddenly get a Zap Cannon that always hits and paralyzes. That's power

    Flying Gem: Moved to A

    Silk Scarf: I honestly don't see why any poke would run this over some other item. What advantage does it provide?

    Focus Sash: This would be S-tier if it wasn't for the prevalence of hazards in the meta. Sure, Focus Sash Volcarona stuff sounds good, until you realize that it does nothing if any hazard is up.

    Air Balloon: Moved to S-tier
  22. 420

    420

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    But they DON'T work on every pokemon, so you're just changing the definition of the item. If eviolite worked on EVERY pokemon it would be broken, but it doesn't so it's not.

    Might as well move Poison Gem to S-tier since if it worked on EVERY move it would be good.
  23. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I agree with what your saying but this is a pretty wild statement. Just look at the little cup where indeed every pokemon can use this item, it is not broken there at all. Sure the metagame would make a total turn around from offense to stall, but thats not broken.
  24. Phi

    Phi

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    Okay this thread has some really interesting possibilities but I'm gonna say as is it's a gaping wad of crap. We should them like tier everything else, based on actual usage statistics. If you use the actual statistics, that accounts for how often in the metagame something like Toxic Orb, which is a sack of crap in the hands of the absolute majority of Pokemon, but in the hands of Guts and Poison Heal users is a better version of Choice Band and Leftovers, respectively. On the other hand, a lot of the sketchy S-Tier stuff here, mainly most of the exclusive items except maybe Soul Dew and Griseous Orb. At the same time, I think a hierarchical list based on usage in battles would be better than a hypothetical list based on how "good" we think an item is, since those results have usually proven better for understanding how we play the game. For example, Thick Club is obviously a better choice for Marowak than Choice Band, but his negligible effect even in NU (NU players correct me if I'm wrong here) means that overall Choice Band is a far bigger "threat" to prepare for. However looking back through this thread it seems like I'm repeating a lot of what other people are saying.

    At the same time I'll say I have no idea how to get the item stats out of the monthly usage stats. Any stat junkies here in a thread that needs em? If there's any way I can help comb stats I'd love to. I think obviously because of the wide variety of sets, offensive and defensive, that use leftover better than anything else, it would clearly come out probably far above s-tier, but below that I think would be a lot of surprises.
  25. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    I don't know that items can be tiered in the same way, because they are just as adaptable as the moves on a moveset, but it's worth a shot. I propose the following ranking system (borrows heavily from the other thread, but adapted for items I guess).

    S Rank: This item is almost universally useful on every pokemon that can use it - the positives it brings far outweigh the negatives.

    A Rank: This item gives significant positive benefits, but the negatives are enough that they detract from universal functionality.

    B Rank: The item provides a small benefit when used, but it isn't as game-changing as an S or A rank item.

    C Rank: The item is average, with a small use but nothing particularly impressive.

    D Rank: This item is not only average, it also has drawbacks that need to be seriously considered.

    E Rank: The item is either entirely unusable or has no competitive effect.


    That's just how I would go about it. Under this logic, for example, Air Balloon would be S Rank because it has no drawbacks while providing immunity to ground attacks and certain hazards. Any pokemon can benefit from it.

    Choice Specs or Choice Band, however, would be A rank. Not everything that can use it would want to be locked into one attack all the time, and might instead get more use from a Life Orb. That kind of thing.

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