ITT: We Discuss our Religious Backgrounds/Ideas

[sonickid01]

jman is not welcome in this thread

any jman posts in this thread will be deleted and maybe infracted

edited Note: NOT A THREAD FOR BEING A PRICK ABOUT RELIGION. IT IS NOT THAT I'M AFRAID OF SOME KIND OF CONTROVERSY, BUT THAT SUCH BELLIGERENCE IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS THREAD. TAKE IT UP IN PMS OR MAKE SOME OTHER THREAD.

Considering that the last thread about religion that was in this general a forum area died a while back and took with it nothing but useless debate that convinced nobody of anything, I thought I'd make another thread with a different purpose.

The title says it; I'm curious about the religious backgrounds of most of the Smogon community's thoughts and upbringings on the subject of religion and thought I'd just open this thread for general discussion of what you believe/don't believe and how you came to that point. The last thread on religion was on an entirely different issue, so this isn't simply a reboot of the last one <_<. Again if you feel contentious and wish to arse someone about their religious beliefs/assertions/whatever, refer to the large red text above and take it up with the person somewhere else. Discussion and civilized debate = good; pugnacious counterargumentation to incite negative reaction/trolling/simply irritated = no-no.

If this thread has been done before and doesn't require a new version or in some way violates some rule of Smogon or a forum that I was previously unaware of, please kindly redirect me to the rule, close the thread, and send me uninfracted on my merry way. Thank you.

My own background I guess to kick things off - I was born and raised a Hindu, but never was very interested in religion. God was never around, he didn't have any direct effect on anyone, he was just someone to ask stuff from when I wanted something. There were cool, interesting stories in Hindu mythology that I gobbled up as a kid but I never gave any of it serious thought. I did notice contradictions and problems with religion from an early age, though. I went to a private school and would ask questions in religion class and would be either shut down, given nonsense answers, or both. I convinced myself that I was simply too little to understand.

When I got a little older, I noticed a few other contradictions, such as how Hinduism can claim that every religion is correct when nearly all other religions condemn Hinduism itself as a false religion. I first began to become very suspicious of religion when a preacher that my family has known well for a long time, and is a very respectable man, had come to our house to spend a night or two. He pulled out some numerology to "tell our personalities" or something, and I noticed some very obvious patterns regarding the English language (not even Sanskrit, just straight-up English!) and a few other oddities and watched him interpret our names as mystical influences on our personalities. I pointed these out to him politely, still not skeptical of his powers but just curious, and asked for an explanation. My sister promptly shut me down. Because it was disrespectful. Looking back now, I can explain the numerology tricks easily as cold reading, some pre-informed knowledge and a very credulous audience. I have to say I lost some respect for the man when I came to this conclusion.

Somewhere between 9th and 10th grade I spent a lot of time thinking in my spare time about religion. I made some interesting connections about the progress of science, what's explainable, what religion means, about logic and evidence and etc, and eventually realized that I was not quite what I once was. I didn't want to call myself an atheist initially, so I said that I was "undefinable," a mixture of things for a very short time. I called myself a "theist" in the sense that I regarded nature as self-regulating and mysterious but entirely observable, an agnostic in that I would not make a call with 100% certainty about any particular deity, and an atheist in that I would not be convinced without evidence. Soon after I decided it was more convenient and somewhat more accurate even to just call myself an agnostic atheist instead, though I still have a kind of reverence (not a worship) for the Universe's natural laws and how they fit together. Looking back from the beginning, I noticed when I realized I was an atheist that I was on this track since I was younger and first started questioning theology.

I'm still kind of "closeted" I guess from my parents, but am pretty open about atheism at school even if I get some disapproving looks from teachers and students. However, I take advantage of political correctness to say what I want to say when it seems appropriate to inject amusing comments.

There's a kind of a summary into my own history regarding the subjects of theology and religion. However, I'm very interested in hearing about everyone else's background and upbringings and influences in this matter.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think I share a lot with the OP. I was born and raised Christian (and frankly, this has a lot to do with historical value to Asian Americans in converting for the sake of integration), and have gone to a Japanese Congregationalist Christian Church my whole life.

That said, I've never been very devout (though there have been definite times where I swear I felt "God" in my life). "Feeling God" and "believing everything the Bible (capitol "B") tells you" though are two decidedly different things. I am a lover of nature (with all its real ferocity), an admirer of Darwin, and believe the real God is the one who created life and evolution.

I also believe that the New Testament is a document written by a people and for a people of a desert society in the Mid-East that existed 2000 years ago; that it was written not by God, but by a few still very imperfect people who had met God (probably), each with their own agendas (even for good), and has since been translated, re-translated and re-interpreted too many times to still hold its original meaning intact. Digest those beliefs, and you do not come out as a typical Christian on the other end.

I still though, believe that my own belief in God is not weak, and do see myself as a Christian (or at least a believer of the Christian God)-- but unfortunately having decidedly different opinions about God from the bible/many other Christians. But hey, the church has been overall a positive influence on my life, and my pastors at least have never really censored me for my own interpretations and philosophical forays. I can't say I've ever had real issue with my religion, and look forward to enjoying this same freedom in the future.

 

[Glen]

blatantly inflammatory posts that exist only to demean will be deleted. this thread is probably doomed but for fuck's sake guys do your best to be reasonable ok

 

[Mr. Hadwick]

My parents were never devoutly religious, and apart from going to church as children it's never been a part of their lives. As such, I grew up with almost no religious influence; and to be honest, looked at Christianity with disdain, it made me very uncomfortable. However, unlike my brother and sister, who went down the straight Atheist path, I discovered a deep and loving connection to nature and the wilderness deep within me. Eventually I ended up with a strange homebrew of Atheism and Paganism. Having an accepting and liberal Christian girlfriend has also helped me get over my initial awkwardness with that religion too.

 

[Morm]

I was raised as a very very soft "backwater" protestant, we soon realized that Sunday school wasn't a wise choice for someone as belligerent, authority testing and overall questioning as myself. So my parents started taking me to the Zoo. When I was around 10 or 12 or something, I realized I blamed God for a lot of things. I decided that it was a scapegoat, something I could be mad at when everything else was unavailable and it was at that point that I realized how juvenile faith was.

I then started on a road of apathy, I just didn't give a shit what anyone was...til I was with an "Atheist Zealot" roommate while dating a pastors daughter. That opened my eyes to a whole dichotomy, a whole world of retards doing interpretive dance for Jesus and loving him SO FUCKING MUCH they couldn't even stand it and were RUNNING AROUND FLAILING all while I was getting a barrage of logic from my old roommate.

If you know anything about me you know it wasn't a choice, really.

I find that people are hardwired to solve puzzles and to anthropomorphize things to rationalize and understand their existence. Let's use sun worshipers, as they are more common than random Jesus/Saturn/WHATEVER discrete gods as per number of upstart societies that randomly started worshiping shit. They see the sun, they know it has a profound effect on the day night cycle and their sleep patterns, their crops and the weather (based on position in the sky). The Aztecs, for example, had NO MEANS OF UNDERSTANDING IT BEYOND THAT. So what do they do? Give it superpowers, then give it emotions- anger, pleasure etc based on murder or gifts or whatever you feel like putting in there, they tried it all. After that, you don't actually have to add ANYTHING to start a religion...however, many of them did.

Once you have an 'answer', do you look for anything more? I doubt it. I rarely do myself. That's how religion works: 1 part being told how things work, 1 part accepting it, 1 part anthropomorphizing and 1 part supernatural...but you need TWO little more things: reverse engineering and coincidence.

So once you have a working model of what your deity/sun/whatever is, you can throw down a bit of reverse engineering:

Person 1: "Our crops are shit this year"

Person 2: 'yeah, it's because we did (or didn't) do X'

Person 1: "HOLY SHIT how can we make up for it?"

Person 2: *throws a dart at a spinning wheel while blindfoled* 'see how I hit that dartboard? It says to rape every single animal and child around us'

Person 1: "Imma get me a Tapir"

**SUN COMES OUT AND THE CROPS ARE AMAZING...OR THEY AREN'T**

Person 1: "well, looks like we did/didn't do the right thing, FUCK, our god is feeling SOMETHING AT US"

In the example, you see a problem that is reverse engineered to fit the mold of the problem at hand, thusly absolving the faithful thought and responsibility. You'll note that no matter what the outcome is, it can be attributed to the deity at hand. So either they did the right thing, pleasing the deity, and positive outcome or they did the wrong thing, displeasing the deity, and negative outcome. Either way, anthropomorphizing galore.

tl;dr:

Religion is:

1. Seeing a problem that needs solving and being profoundly lazy as a species (we all do this)
1. Being told how things work and accepting it (we all fucking do this)
2. Anthropomorphizing (if you have a cat or dog you understand)
3. Supernatural abilities (conveniently inaccessible to study)
4. Reverse Engineering (If a solution occurs, to ANYTHING, work it backwards til it's the deitys credit. In modern times we call it either a "test" or a "miracle")
5. Coincidence (any problem can be dumped on to the deity, positive or negative)

I also find we are limited by observers bias. I struggle to find my own humanity, knowing just how fucked up I really am VS what is normal. In some cases, I've written off shit like hallucinations as "normal" while thinking a certain normal feeling is "bizarre". I think this plays a GIANT role in determining a personal god. It's comforting, it's selfish and it's individual, which is why every single member of every single religion experiences things differently, from feigning speaking in tongues to crashing an airplane into a tower. I demand boundaries and standards in my existence, how can I deal with such a flimsy pile of non definable shit? Well, I can't.

 

[Ninahaza]

the Tale of Jesus Mary Joseph Ninahaza

Man posting this right after Morm posted his Atheist views really gives you something to compare, such a contrast.

For the record my name "Jesus" is not pronounced "Hay-SOOS", also keep in mind i was born and grew up in Africa, my childhood atleast. i might as well apologize for any mistakes i make. its like 2 am "yawns"
My religious journey has been a very interesting one, for a guy named "Jesus Joseph Ninahaza [which means praise Jesus]" well.............. lets start at the beginning

Name's history= My parents are very strong christains. I was born to a baptist mother and a catholic father, my father wanted to name me Ninahaza for my first name and "Jesus Mary Joseph" as my middle name, 3 names as one. The father, the mother and the son. my mother saw no reason to object, however when we first came to the states the government decided to change my name[again my mother did not object after having been convinced by a family friend that it was for the best e_e]and so my name was changed. Ninahaza became my last name, Jesus became my first and "Mary Joseph" became my middle names. for those who have been paying attention, you will notice i never gave my actual last name.........i cannot give out my full African name for reasons i cannot tell you.
Anyways it did not take long for my name to be made fun of because of "Jesus MARY Joseph" so i took out "Mary" and voilà. After many brutal changes to my Original name, the name "Jesus Joseph Ninahaza" was born[although if you look at my ID you can still see "mary" in my name lol]. for those who have cracked Jesus jokes i just want to assure you i was not offended, infact i smile at them now and rarely get offended because someone made fun of my name :) But plz refrain from calling me Mary. not a lot of people know my full middle name and about .05% of those people know my full African name.

The story= you've probably already guessed that i am christain, you are correct. i was raised to love my religion and never question my God, to believe in him with fierce absolution. throughout my whole childhood it was exactly like that, infact i believed everything in the bible was true and never questioned anything i heard. A christian that even my Father would have been proud of. Dont get me wrong i wasnt one of those hardcore christains who wonldnt listen to logic, infact i strongly believe that you should not be so hardcore that you are blinded to any logic by your faith.

when i was about 15 [by this time i was already in the states for awhile now], my Incredibly strong religious foundation began to shake. i had 2 very stubborn atheist Friends and we would argue so much about this "God" of mine, then as if i needed it, i found out one of my other friends was gay............and he would not be the only gay Friend i would come to know before highschool was over
you dont understand i was raised not to tolerate homosexuals, but man these 2 guys.....well they were just so down to earth, really nice and just......well normal to me. Needless to say, my religious foundation was now crumbling. being exposed to the views of atheists and struggling to decide how i felt about homosexuals among other things.

despite this inner battle i stayed friends with my gay peeps throughout highschool and was always nice to them, i did not treat them any differently because without even realising it i had come to accept them. i finally talked to my pastor about gays and although it wasnt straight forward, i understood that even he did not share this intolerance of homosexuals and this was huge for me because it told me that i could compromise with my religion. i may not have to agree 100% with everything in the bible but i also did not have to give up a religion that dispite all this, i still loved.

and so thats what i did, i do question my God/religion every now and then but i am happy to still call myself a christian. I love my God and believe in him, i believe he died for my sins. In a way its impossible for me not to believe in him because.....well if you knew the story of my life you would see what a miracle i am. There have been so many crazy events that can be defined as Miracles in my life that you can say God has proven to me many times of his existence [or atleast that someone is out there, that these things are not random/coincidences]. although my faith is weaker now than it has ever been before, i someday hope to once again have that "fierce absolution", to have no questions and lastly i hope to one day enter his kingdom.

 

[Nastyjungle]

I grew up in a very relaxed setting as far as religion goes; my mother is a Christian who believes in all paths to God, and my father seems to swap between unknowing and Christian on an almost daily basis. As such, I wasn't raised in any particular way, my parents never asked me to read any religious text or go to a church.

I'm not solid on my beliefs, I like to keep a wind open mind that's ready for anything. I've read both the Bible and the Qu'ran, and am always looking to read more religious text when it comes my way.

But as I see it currently, I guess I do believe in all paths to a God or Gods if they exist. I don't think it matters what God you pray to, or what religious rites you go through, or if you go to church or temple. I believe that if you lived your life as a decent person, that when you die you could find your way to God, no matter what you believed. I'm not even sure there is a Hell where bad people go; maybe even everybody can find their way back to God.

That being said, I am a person of science and I question whether such a God or Gods exist. I'm certainly not dismissive of the idea, but I like to rely on proof when I go about my regular life. However, I am willing to accept that there may be no proof of the divine; that it is just that, divine, and beyond human measuring and sensing capabilities outside of the mind.

I personally have never felt God's presence in my life, I've never felt that there was a holy power looking after me. I've never prayed for desires, be them for myself or for others. I also feel no need to worship a God or Gods if they exist. I feel that if I live my life in a mostly benevolent way, that in the end, I can't be sent somewhere non-divine if it exists.

 

[vitreous]

i was raised in a very catholic-centered community, as in everyone i meet is identified as catholic and even all considerable schools are catholic (if you're wondering, i'm from the philippines). despite that, i think my parents' exact religious views are pretty ambiguous (my mother has this hatred over roman catholicism; she belongs to a pretty small yet organized christian group i think, while my dad never really got around going to church though he's christian).

strange enough, i started considering myself an atheist when i was 14 because i greatly disliked how organized religions function ever since i was young (i would say they can get quite discriminatory), i pretty much didn't want being around forever, i.e., the idea of an afterlife, and most importantly was that the people around me are almost always sanctimonious.

i'm proud to say i did a bit of research on other religions before reaching this fortunate conclusion though. i sure got made fun of a lot (e.g. being called an "antichrist") but i couldn't care less anymore. i'm very satisfied with this identity now.

 

[Xaqwais]

I was born and grew up in America as a Muslim. My parents brought be up from day one teaching me how to perform the 5 daily prayers, how to fast, how that the culture we live in isn't the one we believe is right (though there aren't any in the world that can claim that regardless).

I'm pretty set on my belief. I'd like to say that I wasn't brought up to think this way but thought to believe this way by myself. My family has gotten more religious as I've gotten older, likely because me and my brother have gotten more religious and it influenced our family. I've taken classes to ensure that I know the basics and more of the specifics of what I'm doing.

Growing up in a society that has a prevalent (not endorsed) atheist belief really puts an interesting spin on it. Philosophy and other tools are often used against religion, and I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I had looked into before. I've often made statements like, "If I wasn't religious, I'd be into existentialism" and the like.

If anything, Islam has made me a better person in terms of character. I try to be nice to people I hate or to my family even if I believe I'm right just to please God/Allah. I can't be sure of this, but depression has hit me before, and if it wasn't for a formalized religion that held me, I might have done something drastic who knows.

Regardless, if anyone has questions on Islam, PM me, I guess.

 

[sonickid01]

blatantly inflammatory posts that exist only to demean will be deleted. this thread is probably doomed but for fuck's sake guys do your best to be reasonable ok

I'll do what I can to keep this thread on subject. I'm just glad it wasn't deleted already.

Also, if any of you happen to be people who changed or lost their religious views, and you have relatives who do not share your views, I'm also curious about how you explained you (de)conversion with them, and if it came out as positive. I've still got to explain myself to my parents one of these days, and if there is kind of advice to learn from your own stories, I'd love to hear it.

As a reminder to keep this thread afloat as long as possible, this thread is only about discussion of our personal experiences in religion. Do not be belligerent.

 

[WaterBomb]

I was raised Christian (Methodist more specifically), and I am currently very religious. My life has been pretty inconsistent as far as my faith is concerned though.

To avoid a tl;dr post, I'll summarize as best I can. As a child I thought Sunday school was boring. I was a very active kid so my ADD and energy made it difficult for me to sit still. As such, I barely paid attention in Sunday school and didn't gather much from it. The second my parents gave me the choice, I chose to stop going (around 13 or so). I never stopped claiming to be Christian, but I wasn't an active church goer or follower of Jesus for the bulk of my teenage years and into my early twenties.

Once I got into my twenties, however, things began to change again. Now that I was older and wiser, I decided I would give church and God another chance. I started going back to my church on most Sundays. My pastor was a guy I had known for many years, and he was very dynamic and easy to listen to. I found his sermons to be very interesting and deep. One Sunday he gave the sermon about the 500 witnesses to Christ's resurrection, and how they had undergone unthinkable torture and gruesome death all because they refused to deny they had seen Jesus alive and well after his crucifixion. Now, I don't know about others, but I found this to be a pretty convincing argument, because I don't think humans are capable of enduring that kind of brutality for an extended period of time in order to protect something if they know it's a lie. This was not my main reason for turning back to God, but it was certainly a factor.

Upcoming was an event at the church called DNow, a weekend retreat for the middle and high school kids. I knew the youth pastor very well, and I was one of the longest standing members of the church, so I volunteered to help out. I'll spare everyone all the details, but I will say that the weekend was an amazing experience. I saw things happen with these children, both through the worship, devotionals, and regular activities that inspired me. Even the staunchest skeptics (the high schoolers) who were only there because their parents made them go were affected. This weekend was another big reason for the strengthening of my faith.

The final (and biggest) reasons for my reborn faith have occurred very recently, within the past two years. After a devastating breakup with my college girlfriend back on Valentine's Day of 08, I was sure I had missed my chance for happiness. Then I met Christina. Just when I thought I'd never be able to find someone better, I did. She met every desire I had, and met every need I didn't even realize. In a way I couldn't even articulate, she singlehandedly changed my outlook on life. I look at her and see the most beautiful person on the planet. Well, needless to say we began dating that summer. We grew close quickly, and I started to see signs VERY early that this had amazing potential. Even after dating a few short months, random strangers in public would be asking us "so, when's the big day?" and "you guys just fit so perfectly together!" These were pretty clear signals to me that something beyond my power was at work. My suspicions were even further confirmed later on. In May of 09, after we'd been dating for about 11 months, I was ready to pop the question. I was afraid of what my family would say because we hadn't even known each other for a year. My family is quite conservative and practical, so I figured I would get a lot of "are you sure?" and "shouldn't you wait a bit longer?" Despite all this, I asked her anyway. She said yes (hooray!). The funny part was when I broke the news to my parents. They weren't concerned in the least. They were overjoyed! The biggest shocker was my grandparents (dad's parents). The most conservative and traditional people of all, my grandparents commented "gee, we were wondering when you were finally going to ask her". Well, this final approval was all I needed to hear. This was a very positive sign, and it showed me that something greater was happening.

Finally, there have been other events in my life and my best friend's life that have solidified my stance. I won't get into them now, but let's just say they are pretty amazing and unbelievable, and I cannot attribute them to anything in this world. That's my story, and I am sticking to it. Feel free to debate me if you want, call me naive and ignorant or whatever, but I won't change. That being said, I really appreciate the maturity everyone in this thread has shown so far. Thank you for being intelligent and understanding human beings.

EDIT: so much for not making a tl;dr post...oh well =/

 

[Nilf]

I was raised Hindu as a child, my dads side of the family being Indian. My mum is English and converted to Hinduism after marrying my dad. I remember asking my mum as a kid why we were Hindu and why we don't believe in other gods, and she said "We do believe in other gods, they're just not _our_ gods." which satisfied me for an answer at the time (I was about 6 I reckon).

I was never very religious, my grandparents were really devout, and my parents were kind of, and I guess I stopped believing when I was about 10ish? I've considered myself atheist throughout my teenage years, although I don't really have the heart to tell my parents/grandparents that, so I just go along with it if we ever do something to do with religion. I still celebrate Diwali with my family, and Christmas (with my mums side). My parents still expect me to not eat beef (I do) but what they don't know can't hurt them eh?

 

[az]

how can this thread be for discussing religious backgrounds ideas if there is no argument or debate?

as it is, this thread is basically "post your beliefs" pc++

 

[Cartoons!]

My father was catholic, my mother protestant, laid back, so the Christian God was an assumption I didn't really give too much thought of until my mid-teens, when the lack of any substance behind the idea brought be to a state of soft rejection. I figured everyone has their own thing going on so it wasn't worth the trouble getting hung up on it.

By my early 20's I didn't really care if there was a God or not, but explored forms of spirituality which ultimately looked inside rather than out. In retrospect, I'd also developed an intense dislike for anyone who would claim certainty about their belief.

Like Waterbomb, about last year I started coming upon some information about the resurrection of Christ, it interested me, and I read more over the coming weeks. Eventually, I took that leap of faith and laid it all down at Jesus' feet. Then things went crazy. I've already spoken about my spiritual confrontations, which do not come 'from me', for a number of reasons. I don't think going into detail here would be fruitful, but I am open to talking about it via pm. I can also attest to powerful positive affirmations of this new relationship with God that go beyond the mere emotional (which can be caused by any number of things like music, other people, lunch...).

Such things include a personal transformation (to the point where my mom thinks I've crossed the line of conventional living(not even close!)); God opening up opportunities to witness through no effort of my own; open demonstrations of chastisement and mercy; various prayers answered, most recent being a friend of mine who'd suffered from back and neck pains for a decade after a failed suicide attempt, finally being relieved of these pains, albeit, I'd been praying for him for a couple of months, rather inconsistently.

Being a new believer though, my faith is still pretty microscopic, but I've since met, irl and on the net, believers who have even greater stories to tell. And that's just speaking of Christians like me who live a rather 'soft' life in the west. You can speak to Christians who put their lives on the line in other parts of the world who can attest to even more powerful demonstrations of God's presence, love, and faithfulness.

Not all believers will have the powerful supernatural experiences I did, which I believe was allowed on my part to jolt me out of the path I was walking, but everyone will be able to describe clear moments of God's patient guidance, the bringing forth of the fruit of the spirit and all the stuff described in 1 John.

Anyway, thanks for making this thread. It figures like it'd probably be the last opportunity most of us would get a chance to talk religion in the new forum, and it's nice that you set it up as a 'safe' environment.

edit: Swagg, people are probably free to address each other, but it's way too easy for this to turn into another closed thread. maybe if morm comes back...

 

[cookie]

god's existence is irrelevant to my life, which is just as well because the only way he can exist is outside the realm of logic/human understanding ("god" is benevolent and omnipotent by definition, and given the current state of the world he can't be both, QED)

yeah blah blah you can still have "faith" in god's existence but faith's only purpose is to make yourself feel better in some way because it flies in the face of logic and since it wouldn't make me feel better i really don't see the point of believing in god

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

raised very Jewish, yeshiva for 8 years, hebrew, zionism, blah blah blah all that. School didn't agree with me, and even from a very young age, i could spot the flaws in their logic. also: casual racism. in an insular environment, the kids were soaking up ghastly ideas about arabs and blacks.

my real education started a few months before i left; picked up jack miles "god, a biography." and betrand russels "why i am not a christian." started reading everything. Book of mormon, Johnathan kirsch, ayn rand, christopher hitchens, et. al.

if there is a god, it is unlikely It cares about who we are and what we do. if It does, it is unlikely It is any god that we recognize. and if It is, when was the last time any god showed himself worthy of worship anyway. and if there is a god, it doesn't matter. It hasn't shown itself to us in any meaningful way, or in anyway at all. There is still evil in the world. humans go about doing what they do, when they do, however they do. If there is a god, he has a lot of explaining to do

 

[viol and bass]

("god" is benevolent and omnipotent by definition, and given the current state of the world he can't be both, QED)

He can if he's not omniscient. ;) ;)

There are ways to get around that argument though. For instance, if you assume that certain things have intrinsic value, as religious people often do, one of those things could potentially be free will– That is to say, God gave us free will with the knowledge that it could potentially cause evil, but in his view the intrinsic value of free will outweighed that possibility. Kinda shaky, but whatever.

I was born Jewish; I am now an atheist.

 

[cookie]

omnipotence implies omniscience, if "knowing everything" is a thing to be done

 

[GlassAbsol]

My mum is a Gaudiya Vashinav, or a Hare Krishna. We're a white british family but my mum believes that the teachings of that religion make the most sense to her. I personally, am an atheist. I respect people for having religion and trusting there lives to something which may not reciprocate, that takes faith, of which I have very little, I've been told that I'm incredibly cynical for my age. I do however dislike religion as a whole. I believe that somebody shouldn't need the fear of punishment to make them do right, or the fact that they will be judged by someone better than them. I think that you should do what is right because it is the right thing to do. I follow my own moral compass which I must say is highly influenced by my mother (not my father who's a dead beat alcoholic) whose morals are based from her Vashinav way of life. I believe that there is no divine creator, otherwise there would be no problems, because, I for one cannot rest until something I've created is perfect, whereas the typical 'God' fellow doesn't seem to be doing much at all. I think that there doesn't need to be religion, just a general code of compassion towards other creatures, great and small. To take only what you need and to give back that which is needed more. For those that infringe that code, there is the law, and justice on earth.

 

[Eggbert]

The OP is the story of my life. By 8th I realized that none of this stuff made any sense. Ect, ect. So what if something good happened? I realized there was no direct relationship between having a good day and being religious. It's just wishful thinking, but if it floats your boat fine, just don't tell me I'm going to hell or some other crap. Because I don't fall for that anymore. It's just control. Don't do this, go to hell. What's even worse is that pascal wager thing. Oh I might as well pretend to be religious so I'll be safe either way...No. If god did exist it would hopefully take the thinker rather than the suck up. Easter bunny, tooth fairy, santa claus, god. Just another step on the ladder.

 

[mingot]

This is all very interesting, but I agree with Az. Start arguing or debating or whatever that thing is called where we end up calling each other names. Otherwise, I really don't care to read anyones personal testimony and conversion statement.

 

[Morm]

Time to get this slap fight started since my more passive attempt to snare some believers into a debate failed:

Religion is:

1. Seeing a problem that needs solving and being profoundly lazy as a species (we all do this)
1. Being told how things work and accepting it (we all fucking do this)
2. Anthropomorphizing (if you have a cat or dog you understand)
3. Supernatural abilities (conveniently inaccessible to study)
4. Reverse Engineering (If a solution occurs, to ANYTHING, work it backwards til it's the deitys credit. In modern times we call it either a "test" or a "miracle")
5. Coincidence (any problem can be dumped on to the deity, positive or negative)

I also find we are limited by observers bias.

Why has nobody tried to tackle this rather offensive breakdown of human flaw as a reason for religion existing yet? I'd also like to add that people are cowards and need comforting, as per:

faith's only purpose is to make yourself feel better in some way

Two things that that makes me want to lynch the fuck out of anyone who says them (both said by a pastor to me):

I don't believe in secular science

I flat out told this person never to get a vaccine again, never drive a car again or never to drive over a bridge again. All required secular thinking. This is hypocrisy at its finest. If you agree with him, you're likely a fucking retard that "spoke in tongues" once but pretended to be humble about it as he bragged.

religion requires critical thinking, it's the atheists that are brainwashed

If by that he means generations recycling stale sentiment from 1500+ years ago and "knowing" the answer to EVERYTHING without even looking for causality, then yes. How religious folk can even turn the tables around on the secular community like this I don't even know- one community has progressed an insane amount after the dark ages (which we can actually thank religion for) and the other has tried to fight progress in critical thinking. I'll let you sort out which is which.

Also cheapshotting with the normal mention of God of the Gaps, Authority through Antiquity and Russell's Teapot.

 

[WaterBomb]

Hey Morm, here's a task for you. No, this is not a slap to you because I am perfectly accepting of your point of view. I want you to work really hard and come up with a 100% flawless argument that proves, beyond a doubt, that God doesn't exist. Seriously, I want to hear what you come up with. Religious debate fascinates me, and I'd love to see an opposing point of view backed by clear evidence.

For the record, I don't view "religion ignores logic" as "proof that God doesn't exist". Just because something defies logic doesn't make it untrue. Ok, go!

 

[Morm]

Russell's Teapot.

intended to refute the idea that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon the sceptic to disprove unfalsifiable claims of religions

Think of it this way: in order to PROVE something you need evidence. Think of disproving exactly like you would a proof, but that you're finding evidence which makes it literally impossible for it to exist. If something doesn't exist, it basically means there is no manner of evidence at all which is precisely what we are left with in the realm of faith. You end up with no way to move forward or backward in the debate, same as Russell's Teapot really, as it's unfalsifiable. Unfalsifiable basically means that there is literally no way to prove it one way or the other, not that it can't be proven wrong and therefore is right.

As such, in order for an idea to have rationality to it, the preferred method to say "Hey, here are some facts". From there, you need an idea or hypothesis to make them make sense. Religion works the exact opposite way: God is the absolute answer to everything. From there, they see a tree or a horse and say "This proves he exists" which is what I refer to as reverse engineering the idea. It is therefore mandatory that the burden of evidence actually lies with the one making the positive claim, otherwise there is no way to weed out ideas that are useless or unfounded. I prefer the term "evidence" to "proof" as one technically can't prove anything other than math or simple logic problems. Observer's bias is a real bitch, after all, since we are inherently selfish creatures.

I'd like to point out at this point that a feeling you have is not an acceptable alternative to empirical evidence.

"Absence of evidence is evidence of absence." No other idea in the HISTORY of mankind has been so pervasive without any evidence- this isn't because it has quality, it's because it's abusing Authority through Antiquity and that people are hardwired for faith (as I showed in my above post).

 

[cookie]

For the record, I don't view "religion ignores logic" as "proof that God doesn't exist". Just because something defies logic doesn't make it untrue. Ok, go!

if it doesn't make it untrue it implies a misunderstanding or a fault in the logic or premise, or it is true, but it's beyond our scope of understanding/observation/perception. if it's the latter then it's pointless because god has no effect on the real world so why the hell should I concern myself with its existence