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Keldeo (Expert Belt) [2/3 QC]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Shurtugal, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Sea Horses are strong!

    Keldeo (EB Bluffer)
    Overview
    • Good Bluff and strong support
    • Easily manhandles oppositions teams with its incredible, unstoppable coverage

    [​IMG]
    Keldeo

    [SET]
    name: Expert Belt
    move 1: Secret Sword
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Icy Wind
    move 4: Hidden Power Bug / Hidden Power Electric
    item: Expert Belt
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Expert Belt Keldeo is one of the best bluffs in the game! While it can't boast the strengths of Specs, the revenge killing prowress of Scarf, or even the late game sweeping of CM, it can do something none of its other sets can accomplish: luring. Most of its usual counters in Celebi, Tentacruel, Latias, Latios, Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Amoonguss can easily be flattened with the aid of its new Expert Belt. It should be noted that Expert Belt Keldeo can also lure in Pokemon trying to resist one of its STABs or coverage moves (very common if they predict the choice set) such as Dragon Dance Dragonite, Dragon Dance Gyarados, Rock Polish Landorus-I, Rock Polish Landorus-T, Dragon Dance Landorus-I, opposing Keldeo, Terrakion, LO Lati@s, Nasty Plot Celebi, Growth Venusaur, Swords Dance Scizor, Forretress, Hippowdon, and Politoed. Secret Sword and Hydro Pump are to utilize both of its strong STABs to make use of its 129 base special attack as well as to hit on both sides of the spectrum. Icy Wind is used over Hidden Power [Ice] to utilize the perks of speed deduction, catching the Lati twins for easy KOs as well as preventing Dragonite from setting up Dragon Dances easily. Finally, the last move slot is determined based on what you want to hit. Hidden Power [Bug] is the optimal choice to 2HKO Celebi (assuming you hit it with Icy Wind on the switch its as good as dead), as well as having a useful niche of hitting the Lati twins after a speed drop (although Latios is 2HKO'd always by Icy Wind, Latias can sometimes get away for a 3HKO, it should be noted that you should always use another Icy Wind on Latios to maintain the bluff rather to HP [Bug] when they would both KO). Hidden Power [Electric] can be used to hit Jellicent, Gyarados, Tentacruel, and any other bulky water (such as Politoed, as its hit slightly harder than it would be by Secret Sword).</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Additionally, one could opt to use Rain Dance over a Hidden Power coverage if they're using a weatherless team. Rain Dance is a useful move to put a stop to sun and sand teams (ruining Stoutland and Venusaur's sweeping, not to mention it can reduce Victini's V-Create and it can cease your opponents sand residual damage). Hidden Power [Psychic] can be used to hit both Tentacruel and to OHKO Toxicroak if your team struggles to hit them. Mystic Water can be utilized if one were to want stronger Hydro Pumps (bluffing Specs better), but it must be warned against if you want to utilize lures because you'll often miss many KOs without the aid of Expert Belt.</p>

    <p>As far as teammates go, Breloom greatly appreciates the ability to lure and kill Ammonguss, Lati@s, and Celebi, as well as DD Gyarados, LO Agility Thundurus-T, and even Feraligatyr. Breloom is quite ideal as it can break down Jellicent (as well as Thundurus-T), and Gyarados can set up on it. Clear counters are hard to come by but Jellicent will always wall non-HP [Electric] variants (and HP Electric variants needs Spikes and SR to 2HKO). Scarf Latias and Scarf Latios are great counters because even with the speed drop they can still outspeed and KO Keldeo. Scarf Keldeo is another good check as Expert Belt Keldeo can't tank many hits from it and can't outpace it either. Tornadus-I is a good check so long as it isn't switching into an Icy Wind, and Venusaur can beat all non-Rain Dance Keldeo sets as well underneath its sun support.</p>


    Logs (open)

    Here is a log of Rain Dance Keldeo working, while at the same time demonstrates how EB Keldeo can bluff (see the turn with Dragonite vs. Keldeo). Here!
  2. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent come at me winter
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    Nature and EVs shurt ;) also capitalize S on sword

    Nice set, I'm particularly intrigued by the use of Rain Dance on this set. I'll test this and also get back to you on it. But BS i thought your first analysis would be SpecsBliss
  3. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
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    don't forget the item and capitalize Expert Belt in the set name. ;) (order is item -> nature -> evs)

    don't forget to talk about the moves in the set comments (as in, what they each do, choice for the fourth slot, etc.)

    otherwise this an intriguing set, especially, as cherub said, because of rain dance.

    I've used a non-RD variant a bit and I must say, it's a cool bluff and a great cleaner. However, I think it'd be a good idea to slash in Life Orb and rename the set to "All-Out Attacker." Life Orb has the advantage of more consistent power and makes you not have to bluff. LO-boosted Hydro Pumps / Surfs are very powerful, especially in rain. It can switch moves, unlike the Specs set, and has room for an extra coverage move, unlike the CM set. I think it has enough merit to get a slash, but I'd be fine with just an AC mention.
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    You could slash Hidden Power Electric as an option that can still combat Jellicent, but also maims Gyarados and Tentacruel, two Pokémon that resist other moves that Keldeo may use. Hidden Power Bug could also be suggested to surprise Celebi; on sandstorm, it KOes after Celebi switched on Stealth Rock and a Hydro Pump. It still covers Lati@s but fails to cover Jellicent, however.
  5. BKC

    BKC
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    i think calm mind could work in the last slot. like you said this is an incredibly easy bluff to pull off and if you can get a cm vs a mon that protects against you thinking youre choiced [heatran mainly but ferro/gliscor as well], it could very well be gg right there

    also yeah hp bug can work since this is the best celebi lure in the entire game and it puts some nice dents in the lati twins as well, which means breloom is a good partner
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Thanks for the feedback!

    Changed the errors for item / nature / attack explanations. Sorry since it's my first time >_>. Onto my comments:

    Hidden Power [Bug]: I'm really thinking this could use an AC comment, but not a primary slash. Icy Wind deals around 42% to the Celebi switch in and after rocks + spikes its down to half. Of course, Celebi is forced to recover, but partners like Scizor, Jirachi, Gengar, ThundyT are a great means of managing Celebi as well as Banded Tyranitar. I feel that although HP Bug hits Celebi for more damage, that Icy Wind is a good universal since it also hits Among and you'll hardly need it as much as, say, CM or RD for the final slot.

    Calm Mind: This is an ingenious idea! It certainly deserves a primary slash on the fourth slot, as it can easily set up a CM boost since it's an amazing bluff.

    Life Orb: I'm thinking an AC mention, since this set wants to bluff not go all out attacking. I feel LO hampers its natural bulk (something I like to abuse: living VSwitch from Rotom-W is amazing while SS 2HKOs after rocks). LO is certainly a good item though and could certainly be a threat under rain so I'll mention that in the AC.

    Hidden Power [Electric]: Even with EB its not going to muscle through Jellicent unless you put Calm Mind on it. I'll AC but its certainly not worthy of a slash. It can hit Gyara but even Tenta isn't minding HP Electric much either.


    Thanks for the feedback!
  7. Jukain

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    yeah this looks good, imo, just capitalize the stuff correctly:

    expert belt -> Expert Belt

    timid -> Timid

    your evs are a bit messed up, they should look like this: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    I definitely agree on HP Bug getting a slash, as it is, as BKC said, one of the best Celebi lures in the game. I would slash it with Icy Wind. You could slash it in the last slot, but then you get the issue of having too many slashes. idk, it definitely deserves more than AC imo. If you don't have HP Bug, you need something for Celebi, so mention the stuff you mentioned in your post t&c.

    Oh and individual sets don't get separate overviews ;) just mention that stuff in the why this set deserves to be on-site.
  8. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    If I would slash it anywhere I would slash it on RD / Surf since Icy Wind is mandatory coverage! I'll mull over slashing it with RD / Surf / CM if other people agree with it.

    I'll certainly mention how non-HP Bug variants need something to tackle Celebi though!
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I know that this set is reasonably well known, but I am not a fan of it at all. While it might be an extremely easy bluff to pull off, this is largely because it isn't a very rewarding bluff to pull off either most of the time. Keldeo is a pokemon with one extremely powerful STAB and horrendously weak coverage moves. Doesn't sound like expert belt material at all.

    However, I do actually really like all-out attacking keldeo. I just feel that its STAB is too weak with expert belt, and its coverage moves barely manage to outdamage its STAB, even when the STAB is NVE if in the rain (unless the coverage move is 4x super effective, and then you probably don't even need the ebelt anyway). The best items to run are, in my opinion, Life Orb and Mystic Water. You can still pull off a bluff reasonably well like this - you use a weak coverage move to bluff scarf, and then hit them with a massive hydro pump when they least expect it. LO 4 attacks keldeo, on the other hand, is basically just impossible to wall. It just kills everything.

    As far as coverage is concerned, do you not want HP Ghost or something to hit counters like Jellicent/Latis/Slowbro or whatever. If using LO this is definitely the way to go. Maybe you just don't do enough with ebelt, I don't know. Edit: err yeah HP electric is better sorry!

    edit: oh, and take out that thing about bluffing specs in the rain, unless you want to add the proviso that you must OHKO your target (and then I presume you probably don't need to switch moves anyway).
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Hmmm,

    Okay so here is what I don't like about Mystic Water: Icy Wind is extremely weak. Secret Sword actually does a bit more to Ferro (around 71%, which is normally a living range vs. Scarf) and Icy Wind does like 47% to Among with EB (after SR and sand its a 2HKO). You miss those if you run Mystic Water; however, it does seem like a good idea as Hydro Pump is boosted tremendously.

    I really disagree with it not being able to pull off a worthy bluff. A lot of things will think your locked into Icy wind and switch into ice resists (see Scizor), which you can then Hydro Pump and take it down. Landorus-I also tries to set up RP on those SS locked Keldeo. How much have you used it? It's not the fact that its going to be hitting something SE all the time more than you can simply KO something that is trying to resist its locked coverage move (SD Scizor, RP Landorus, Rotom-W comming in on Pump to get KO'ed by SS, Forretress coming in on Icy Wind vs. your DeoD team, hitting Jirachi with Pump when it tries to CM on your Icy Wind, etc.)

    I'll take out the part of bluffing specs in rain. I'll also take out HP Ghost, which is quite a bad mention on my part since its inferior to HP Electric.

    Life Orb takes all the bluff away which is why I feel it needs to stay as AC, as thi sets main job is to bluff. Mystic Water is certainly a good slash to EB, so I will do that


    EDIT:

    Log of Keldeo pwning Sun with RD. (Although he turned out to have Sunny Day Venu, but you'll see that setting up that SD was vital for my success). Here!


    This one is even better: here! This is also a great example of Keldeo's bluff, see when Dragonite switches into Keldeo to tank Pump but gets blasted by Icy Wind (@jc104)
  11. kokoloko

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    Keep Expert Belt. Non-attacking moves should all be AC'd because they don't aid the main purpose of this set, which is to lure shit out and kill it.

    Here's what the set should look like imo

    [SET]
    name: Expert Belt Lure
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Secret Sword
    move 3: Icy Wind
    move 4: Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Bug
    item: Expert Belt
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP /252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Hidden Power Ghost, Surf, and Mystic Water in AC.

    Icy Wind + HP Electric covers everything "but Celebi", although if you can predict its switchin and its weakened a bit, it loses anyway. Expert Belt is needed to secure the 2HKO on Latias with Icy Wind after Stealth Rock, iirc.
  12. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Will make these changes. I feel bad putting Rain Dance in AC but it's for the best (check out the logs to see how it works though!). I'm agreeing with those changes and will adjust the OP accordingly.

    EDIT:

    I'm sorry jc104, I take all opinions highly (especially yours!) and you made valid points. To be honest I don't have much experience with LO 4 attack Keldeo so maybe I'll give that a shot sometime. :)

    My main reason for this edit was to express post #666, THE DEVIL IS WATCHING ME! XD
  13. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Just to answer your question in there. I've barely used EB Keldeo at all. I used Mystic water a tiny bit. I have plenty of experience with Scarf Keldeo and LO 4 attacks Keldeo. So don't feel the need to weight my opinion too highly.
  14. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    You mention Rain Dance in AC; however, I don't see many pros of doing so if Kingdra exists. I'd AC mention HP Psychic as well for Toxicroak. I actually like this set.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Kingdra can't muscle through Ferrothorn like Keldeo can, as well as Draco taking -2 toll and LO wearing it down excessively to the point where rain teams can easily wear it down. Keldeo basically can handle steel types better as well as setting it up easier with its higher base speeds.

    Each have their own niche imo. I'll AC mention HP Psychic, glad you like this set ^-^.

    QC checks y/n?
  16. Jukain

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    yeah but Kingdra can deal with bulky Water-types so much more easily. it's easy to use Magnezone and get rid of Ferrothorn; heck, Hydro Pump 2HKOes if you have enough hazard support. I also don't see the appeal of Rain Dance, it doesn't seem worh an AC mention.
  17. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Keldeo can also mange bulky waters with SS, unless its name are Tentacruel and Starmie. Magnezone is not that great this metagame either and even so its a great liablity to use imo outside of 4Drag2Mag (or 2Drag1Mag).

    Keldeo can run ThundyT to set up on bulky waters too so the point with Magnezone is also moot imo.

    The appeal of Rain Dance is that if you using Keldeo in weatherless (where sun is a major issue), you can run Rain Dance to check sun as well as maintain the bluffing this set offers and the fighting STAB that Kingdra just doesn't offer. Kingdra is a different set all together, it doesn't posses fighting STAB and it isn't hitting the same things Keldeo is hitting so I can't even see the comparison outside of abusing Swift Swim, and even then its LO and Draco Meteor force it out, constantly taking LO and hazard damages wears it out pretty fast. It depends on what you want to hit and Keldeo does a fine job of checking sun better with Rain Dance than any other Keldeo set. I feel it warrants AC at best.

    EDIT:

    @Lord of Bays:

    Thank you, my point exactly ^-^
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Rain Dance fits in AC. Kingdra is limited to abusing rain and abusing rain only. Now it most certainly runs a more effective dedicated Rain Dance set, but Kingdra doesn't fit on every team easily and Keldeo works just fine for breaking opposing weather, like sun or sand.
  19. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    For aesthetic and programming purposes, fix the set into this:

    Also, I've been secretly experimenting with Rain Dance Keldeo before this was approved, and it's actually pretty fucking awesome in actual PS gameplay. So at worst, it deserves an AC mention, but not a slash.

    Outside of that, this has a likely chance of being approved, so keep an eye out today.

    edited: fixed your title, too.
  20. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Fixed the set for reasons you mentioned. Thanks ^-^. I'll keep an eye out and I'm glad someone else sees how good RD Keldeo is :3

    EDIT:

    It's also good in PO gameplay, I'm like #7 with it lol.
  21. Zac Flare

    Zac Flare

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    Nice set, shurt expert belt keldeo seems great but why not hp ice over icy wind since it does more damage ohkos breloom regardless of hazards of its side or not at timid. and 2kos latios and latias.

    Calcs:



    252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Breloom: 105.34% - 124.43% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Breloom: 82.44% - 97.71% (2 hits to KO)

    252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Latias (-SpDef) : 42.86% - 50.83% (2-3 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Latias (-SpDef) : 54.15% - 63.79% (2 hits to KO)

    252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Latios: 55.63% - 65.89% (2 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Latios: 44.37% - 52.32% (2-3 hits to KO)
  22. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    (factor in SR is 6%)
    Because after SR Icy Wind scores the OHKO on Breloom.
    After SR Icy Wind is a 2HKO on Latias
    It's certainly a 2HKO after SR on Latios

    Icy Wind also drops speed so its much more valuable than HP Ice. It does the same thing HP Ice does after a round of SR. Like Cherub points out, you need the HP for extra coverage plus utility in Icy Wind, like I said :)

    EDIT: yep ^-^
  23. Cherub Agent

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    A couple of reasons. One, Keldeo doesn't need the extra power of HP ICe as the utility of lowering an opponent's Speed outweighs the extra damage, ESPECIALLY in the case of Lati@s, as they would be able to tank the HP Ice, outspeed and OHKO. Both Latias and Latios die to Icy Wind if they come into it when Stealth Rock is on the field, which HP Ice does not give you.

    And second, because Keldeo really needs the other Hidden Power slot to hit other targets.



    EDIT: Ra'zac'd
  24. Lavos Spawn

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    i feel as though hidden power bug should be the first slash on the fourth moveset instead of hp electric, because hp bug has way more utility for keldeo. one of the most popular and most common walls to keldeo on any sand balance or sand stall team is specially defensive celebi, and with hp bug popping it for an easy 2hko, that's more critical than anything hp electric can do. hp bug also does a number on the lati twins, which is cool because it opens up holes for techniloom (one of ebelt keldeo's best partners) to sweep, whereas killing jellicent is a lot less important for loom's success. and speaking of jellicent, what else does hp electric even hit that's really necessary? all that's coming to mind is gyarados, and i haven't seen a gyarados in weeks. tentacruel is another thing, i suppose, but if your best answer to tentacruel is hp electric keldeo, you need to reevaluate your team.

    i like the set overall. icy wind + hp bug combo to kill latios/latias is really nice. i want to hear some more input before i qc, though.
  25. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I'll certainly change it to HP Bug as the primary slash, Gyara is sort of rare and its not even hitting Jellicent that hard.

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