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Kingdra (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by AccidentalGreed, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Thanks Mew!

    [​IMG]
    Kingdra

    Status: Writing

    QC Approvals: (3/3) (PK Gaming) (wilson46) (Bloo)

    GP Approvals: (2/2) (TelamonianAjax) (Bugmaniacbob)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [OVERVIEW]

    <p>Kingdra's underwhelming Speed and rather average offensive stats threaten to leave it discarded in the wake of other OU sweepers. Behind the mediocre stats and movepool, however, lies a deceptively powerful Pokemon that can destroy unprepared teams. One of Kingdra's most notable traits is its Water / Dragon typing, unique to Kingdra in OU, which conveniently grants it only one weakness and a neutrality to Ice- and Electric-type attacks. Additionally, the fact that Water- and Dragon-type attacks together have nearly unresisted coverage gives Kingdra the power to break through teams with its dual STAB attacks alone.</p>

    <p>That's not where the fun ends, however. To fix its admittedly average Speed, Kingdra has access to two game-changing options: Dragon Dance and Rain Dance. While Dragon Dance can easily be executed in various ways to allow Kingdra to sweep, Rain Dance, paired with Kingdra's Swift Swim ability, has the potential to destroy many teams immediately, especially weather-oriented ones. Despite competition for a teamslot with other Dragon-type Pokemon, and some new defensive threats to deal with—particularly the popular Ferrothorn—this sea dragon should never be underestimated, as it can turn the tide of a seemingly lost game in an instant. Fortunately, the abundance of opposing weather teams gives Kingdra plenty of sweeping opportunities to prove itself worthy of a team slot in OU.</p>

    <p>While it may seem obvious to run Kingdra alongside Drizzle Politoed for permanent rain, the combined ban of Swift Swim and Drizzle on the same team prevents this. For this reason, you need to choose different teammates. Of course, if the opposing team happens to have a Drizzle Politoed, Kingdra has a huge sweeping opportunity in front of it.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Draco Meteor
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Mild
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 92 Atk / 252 SpA / 164 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>In a metagame plagued with weather teams at almost every corner, Kingdra can act as an anti-metagame force, capable of reliably combating just about every type of weather team. With Rain Dance and Swift Swim, Kingdra is able to overpower sandstorm and sunlight-based Pokemon, while opposing Drizzle teams provide Kingdra with an immediate Speed boost. Offensively, Kingdra is a terrifying force to battle against for both weather and non-weather teams alike; when rain is in effect, Kingdra becomes a monster with doubled Speed, boosted Water-type moves (through STAB and the rain multiplier), and a powerful STAB Draco Meteor waiting in the wings. Additionally, using Rain Dance provides nice team benefits; after the removal of sandstorm and hail, Kingdra's teammates regain Leftovers recovery and receive an effective Fire-type resistance for as long as the rain is on the field.<p>

    <p>Kingdra's main moves are Hydro Pump and Waterfall. While Waterfall is an accurate, reliable, physical STAB move used for cleaning up the opponent's team and hitting physically weak threats, Hydro Pump allows Kingdra to bypass the physically-defensive. It can OHKO some notable targets in rain even without Stealth Rock support, such as Scizor, Metagross, Conkeldurr, and physically defensive Bronzong. Surf is a more accurate, albeit significantly less powerful, alternative in place of Hydro Pump. Draco Meteor completes the set's coverage by striking those that resist Kingdra's Water-type moves for major damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>164 Speed EVs are absolutely required in order to outrun positive base 100 Speed Pokemon with a Choice Scarf in the rain. Special Attack is maximized to guarantee an OHKO against key opponents such as those listed above—Scizor, Metagross, Conkeldurr, and physically defensive Bronzong—with Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump is also significantly stronger than Waterfall on average. However, if so desired, a physically offensive spread of 252 Atk / 92 SpA / 164 Spe with a Naughty nature gives Waterfall significant cleaning power while maintaining zest for Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor.</p>

    <p>Ferrothorn and Empoleon are complete stops to this set, as both of them resist Kingdra's STAB moves and can take most hits comfortably, while retaliating with a status move or an attack. Specially defensive Pokemon with Water Absorb are also efficient counters for this Kingdra. Vaporeon and Jellicent are especially useful, as they can heal off the damage done by Draco Meteor with ease. While most weather inducers cannot switch directly into Kingdra's powerful attacks, they can immediately take away Kingdra's precious rain and either switch out to a counter or react with status or an attack. Abomasnow in particular is the best weather inducer versus Kingdra, due to its high Special Defense and resistance to Water-type attacks. Additionally, any kind of status seriously cripples Kingdra's survivability, as it needs all the turns and power it can get in one sitting.</p>

    <p>Because the combination of Jellicent and Ferrothorn is very popular in the metagame, countering them is extremely necessary for Kingdra to sweep efficiently. Stallbreakers do especially well in this area, as teams with Jellicent and Ferrothorn are usually defensively-based, and can fall easily to them. Most of these Pokemon can also handily defeat Empoleon and Vaporeon under the right conditions. Notable stallbreakers include Calm Mind Reuniclus, Swords Dance Gliscor, Nasty Plot Mew, and an offensive Dragonite. Users of reliable Grass- and Electric-type attacks are also good checks for the bulky Water-types that trouble Kingdra. Magnezone is a straightforward answer to all of these threats, hitting the Water-types super effectively while trapping and eliminating Ferrothorn and other Steel-type Pokemon. Since the aforementioned threats are played conservatively, the best way to defeat them immediately is through patient luring and battering.</p>

    <p>As far as field factors go, Kingdra is susceptible to all entry hazards, severely limiting its sweeping. Therefore, Rapid Spin users (such as Tentacruel, Hitmontop, or Starmie) or Pokemon with Magic Bounce pair fairly well with Kingdra. Stealth Rock and a few layers of Spikes help Kingdra achieve more OHKOs; therefore, it is useful to have an offensive user of these hazards, such as Infernape, Azelf, and Ferrothorn, who can easily set up these hazards while maintaining an aggressive presence. Additionally, because Kingdra can't always set up Rain Dance by itself, either due to low health or being up against a tough attacker, another Rain Dance user can be helpful. Both Thundurus and Tornadus make outstanding Rain Dance users because their ability, Prankster, gives Rain Dance priority, and both have exceptional special attacking capabilities in rain as well.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Dragon Pulse / Surf
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Specs Kingdra has certainly lost its shine in a metagame with so many other Dragon-type attackers. While Kingdra's Special Attack and Speed are a far cry from other OU powerhouses such as Latios, Hydreigon, and Kyurem, Kingdra can still excel with a Choice Specs set thanks to its access to powerful dual STAB attacks. Kingdra's damage output is further augmented by perfect coverage, allowing it to easily decimate threats early-game. Most significantly, unlike Latios and Latias—the two common users of Choice Specs in today's metagame—Kingdra can switch in somewhat more easily due to its typing, and threaten with both STAB Hydro Pump and STAB Draco Meteor. However, for maximum impact, Kingdra should be treated as an early-game supporting wallbreaker, rather than a sweeper.</p>

    <p>This set couldn't be simpler; both Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump have over 100 Base Power and also have perfect coverage with each other, excluding Shedinja, Ferrothorn, and Empoleon. Draco Meteor should generally be used to massacre threats early-game, with Hydro Pump being used for the occasional Steel-type Pokemon. After all Steel-types and counters have been eliminated, feel free to let loose with Kingdra's Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse for late-game cleaning. Alternatively, Surf can take the place of Dragon Pulse for a more accurate Water-type move, though the coverage and reliability Dragon Pulse offers is often irreplaceable. Finally, Hidden Power Fire is given a slot simply for Ferrothorn and Shedinja, both of whom wall the entire set otherwise. Residual damage is required to OHKO Ferrothorn and eliminate Shedinja immediately.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Specs Kingdra can be tweaked in many ways. The EV spread, along with a Modest nature, is designed to outrun Jolly maximum Speed Tyranitar while giving Kingdra maximum wallbreaking potential. On the other hand, Kingdra can use a spread of 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe with a Timid nature to outspeed all positive base 80 Pokemon and have some flexibility mid-game. If desired or necessary, you can simply maximize Kingdra's Speed and Special Attack with either nature.</p>

    <p>With regards to counters, almost nothing can switch into Kingdra's boosted Draco Meteor or Hydro Pump without having a chunk of health cleaved off. As a supporting wallbreaker, Kingdra does not require major support around it. Because Kingdra will be abusing its STAB attacks most of the time, and will be hard-pressed to combat the infamous duo of Ferrothorn and Jellicent, a less-than-obvious approach should be used to whittle down both Pokemon. An example of this is Thundurus; whereas Kingdra can at least do some damage to them with Draco Meteor, Thundurus can use STAB Thunderbolt to check Jellicent while using Focus Blast or Hammer Arm against Ferrothorn. As a bonus, Hammer Arm Thundurus can also fend off Chansey and Blissey, who also wall Kingdra's attacks all day. Kingdra is susceptible to all entry hazards, so a Pokemon with Magic Bounce or a Rapid Spin user will let Kingdra switch in and out of the field more often.</p>

    <p>Generally, this kind of Kingdra shouldn't be played with dedicated rain support, although it plays decently in this weather due to its Water-type moves receiving an additional damage bonus. While Swift Swim cannot be used with Drizzle on the same team, Kingdra can nevertheless make do with Sniper on a Drizzle-based team. If you can pull it off, Kingdra can alternatively be paired with a Rain Dance user if you want to keep the invaluable Speed boosts Swift Swim provides. Tornadus and Thundurus are the best users of Rain Dance due to Prankster and their ability to combat other weather inducers, while having great offensive utility outside of rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Outrage
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire
    nature: Lonely
    ability: Swift Swim
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    evs: 252 Atk / 112 SpA / 144 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>As a user of Dragon Dance, Kingdra can be just as threatening as it was last generation, as its fantastic typing grants Kingdra the ability to set up efficiently and sweep with dual STAB moves. However, the mere presence, not to mention popularity, of Ferrothorn in OU often forces Kingdra to use Hidden Power Fire to avoid being walled. On the bright side, this also allows it to lure out and deal with Scizor, Skarmory, and other physical walls expecting a purely physical set. Finding opportunities to set up is quite easy for something as flexible and bulky as Kingdra, and when it does prepare its sweep, Kingdra will be difficult to counter directly.</p>

    <p>When using Dragon Dance, Kingdra's main priority is to eliminate as many walling counters as possible (Team Preview helps to identify them), then lash out with a powerful, boosted Outrage. While Waterfall is the primary option for a consistent physical STAB move with no setbacks, Hydro Pump has its merits for punishing some physical walls. Physically defensive Skarmory and Cobalion, two normally eager switch-ins to physical Kingdra sets, are promptly 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, and even if Kingdra has been phazed out, it will have done major damage in the long run.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because the main focus of this set is to fend off Ferrothorn and Scizor while boosting, Hidden Power Fire is nearly non-negotiable. While it may be tempting to run other special moves, such as Ice Beam or Hydro Pump for other physical walls, these moves require some team support to function, and Hidden Power Fire gives Kingdra the most flexibility in the current OU metagame. 112 EVs are invested in Special Attack for a guaranteed OHKO against Scizor with Life Orb. Attack is maximized to get the best out of Kingdra's physical moves, while the leftover 144 EVs are put into Speed to take advantage of potential Speed boosts.</p>

    <p>The item choice is up to preference. Lum Berry provides Kingdra with a chance to set up one more Dragon Dance boost or attack when hit with a status move, and if preserved, can cure Kingdra of Outrage confusion as well. Lum Berry is particularly helpful against Thunder Wave Ferrothorn, whom Kingdra can only 2HKO with Hidden Power Fire. Life Orb gives Kingdra an immediate boost in power, and is particularly helpful against certain physical walls, such as Hippowdon. When using Life Orb, it is highly advised to use Hydro Pump to break walls, while Waterfall should be used with Lum Berry to take advantage of potential additional Dragon Dance boosts.</p>

    <p>Faster revenge killers and Choice Scarf users, particularly Latios, Excadrill, and Starmie, will often prevent Kingdra from sweeping effectively. If Lum Berry isn't used, status users will be a constant annoyance if Kingdra cannot KO them in time. Furthermore, Kingdra cannot afford to take excessive damage on such a set with little means of recovery. A strong Pursuit user, such as Tyranitar, Scizor, or Metagross, can stop some common Choice Scarf users in their tracks while maintaining a heavy defensive presence. Scizor and Metagross are exceptionally good teammates due to their resistance to Dragon-type moves and relative neutrality against Ferrothorn. Speaking of Ferrothorn, other Pokemon that have trouble against it will appreciate Kingdra's capabilities, especially because Kingdra can lure and 2HKO the barbed durian. To prevent Kingdra from taking too much damage from hazards, a Rapid Spin user is highly advised; Hitmontop can be especially noted for its ability to revenge kill Excadrill, amongst other foes.</p>

    [SET]
    name: ChestoRest Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Outrage
    move 4: Rest
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Adamant
    item: Chesto Berry / Lum Berry
    evs: 144 HP / 160 Atk / 40 SpD / 164 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>One of Kingdra's signature sets last generation, this set is capable of boosting Kingdra's Attack and Speed in front of common foes while removing status and recovering HP with Rest. Unlike most other Pokemon, Kingdra can afford to use the combination of Rest and Chesto Berry, as it is comfortably supported by its good bulk with a little defensive investment. However, as goes for its other sets, Kingdra must be cautious when using this set, because Ferrothorn, Scizor, Excadrill (in sandstorm), and Dragon-type Choice Scarf users, such as Latios and Haxorus, are popular sights in OU. When these threats have been weakened or eliminated, Kingdra becomes a robust sweeper with assets in dual physical STAB attacks—Waterfall and Outrage—and an uncommon, reliable method of recovery.</p>

    <p>The use of Rest requires some explanation: the game plan is to execute as many Dragon Dance boosts as possible, having eliminated significant opposing powerhouses and physical walls previously. When Kingdra is low on health, and/or is suffering from status, it should use Rest, negating the negative side-effect with the Chesto Berry, and proceed to sweep. Because the Chesto Berry activates only upon the sleep status, Kingdra can set up in front of many Pokemon that are reliant on inducing status, including, but not limited to Blissey, Chansey, Rotom-A, Dusclops, Porygon2, and Jellicent.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs are highly specialized; the listed HP and Special Defense EVs allow Kingdra to survive two Ice Beams or Thunderbolts from Life Orb Starmie, and grants it some flexibility in front of other special attackers. 164 EVs are invested in Speed to outspeed +1 positive-natured base 100’s after two Dragon Dance boosts, and the rest are put into Attack. Lum Berry is a possible alternative to Chesto Berry to cure Outrage-induced confusion, although Kingdra becomes even more vulnerable against status users, who essentially have a "second chance" to cripple Kingdra without Chesto Berry.</p>

    <p>Ferrothorn again makes its appearance as a one-stop counter to this set, since Kingdra lacks Hidden Power Fire to fend it off. Additionally, certain walls, notably Skarmory, Dragonite, and Gyarados, can stop Kingdra's efforts by surviving its boosted attacks and phazing it out of the field. Particularly, Skarmory is almost guaranteed to phaze Kingdra successfully due to its good physical bulk and whether or not its Sturdy ability remains intact. Kingdra's only weakness is Dragon-type moves, which can easily be played around with a Steel-type teammate. Magnezone is a notable mention, as it can use its Magnet Pull ability to trap and eliminate almost all Steel-types, especially Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Additionally, Magnezone can somewhat check non-Earthquake Gyarados and tank some Dragon-type moves. Other ideal Pokemon for Steel-type teammates include Calm Mind Jirachi, Metagross, Cobalion, and your own Ferrothorn. Additionally, if Kingdra is required to use Rest multiple times, a Heal Bell or Aromatherapy user, such as Blissey, Celebi, or Defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss, do especially well to heal off Kingdra's sleep.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Kingdra has loads of other options that are not mentioned in the current analysis. Keep in mind, however, that the presence of Ferrothorn and other Dragon-type competitors limits the viability of these options. Nevertheless, when provided with support against Ferrothorn and Kingdra's other checks and counters, these sets have the potential to completely surprise and destroy the opponent.</p>

    <p>A Rain Dance set composed of only special moves is viable, as Attack EV investment isn't necessary anymore, and Kingdra is free to invest those EVs in Speed or HP. Kingdra's bulk also isn't squandered by giving it a defense-neutral nature. With maximum Speed, Kingdra can outrun +1 positive base 110 Pokemon, while giving some flexibility outside of Rain. The attacks Kingdra can use in this set include Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, Surf, and Dragon Pulse, and similar to the Mixed Rain Dance set, this Kingdra can blast through teams with its many boosted attacks. One advantage of Special Rain Dance is the ability to 2HKO Jellicent via Dragon Pulse plus Draco Meteor.</p>

    <p>Additionally, Kingdra can use both of its boosting moves in one set to set up completely in front of all weather teams. With just Rain Dance in play, Kingdra has a boosted Waterfall and doubled Speed to play with, while Dragon Dance provides it the means to defeat threats outside of Rain. After a Dragon Dance boost in the rain, Kingdra threatens with a 2.25x boosted Waterfall, which eliminates a variety of teams cleanly.</p>

    <p>Although Kingdra is defined by its ability to use two STAB attacks effectively with nearly perfect coverage, it can use a mono-attacking set with Rest, Sleep Talk, Dragon Dance, and Outrage. Once Steel-types, phazers, and physical walls are eliminated, this type of set tends to set up rather easily in front of many attacks with significant defensive investment. Be advised that this set requires a lot more support than Kingdra's other sets.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>In the generation shift, Kingdra encountered one of its worst enemies in Pokemon history: Ferrothorn. Not only is Ferrothorn an extremely popular defensive threat in OU, but with its Grass / Steel typing, it can easily wall any Kingdra lacking Hidden Power Fire. If Kingdra does encounter Ferrothorn, keep in mind that Ferrothorn can do three things: use Thunder Wave to cripple Kingdra or a switch-in, use Power Whip outright, or set up Spikes as Kingdra helplessly attacks it. Ferrothorn has a much easier time countering physical sets, as with Iron Barbs, it can easily catch a Kingdra into Waterfall or Outrage. To a lesser extent, Empoleon also walls Kingdra, due to resisting its two main STAB moves. To put salt in Kingdra's wounds, Empoleon can also use Roar to nullify any attempts to set up on it.</p>

    <p>Individual checks for Kingdra's Dragon Dance sets include most physical walls and Choice Scarf users. Skarmory, especially with the help of its ability Sturdy, can take on any Dragon Dance set without a special move and use Whirlwind to phaze Kingdra and its boosts out. Quagsire is a rather odd, but credible counter; with Unaware, it nullifies Kingdra's boosts and can Recover off damage easily. As for Choice Scarf users, any strong Pokemon with a Speed stat of over 269 (the maximum Speed that Adamant Kingdra can reach) can revenge kill a neutral +1 Kingdra. Additionally, a common strategy to pivot against Dragon Dance Kingdra is to lock it into Outrage, then switch in a Steel-type Pokemon to sponge the incoming assaults until Kingdra inevitably becomes confused.</p>

    <p>With regards to Rain Dance sets, Kingdra is much harder to check due to its doubled Speed with Swift Swim and the immense power provided by boosted Water-type moves. Standard Vaporeon and Jellicent easily come to mind as suitable Rain Dance counters, easily sponging Draco Meteors with their high Special Defenses and literally absorbing Water-type attacks with their ability, Water Absorb. Gyarados once again makes an appearance, with decent enough Special Defense—like the aforementioned bulky Water-types—to shrug off Water-type attacks and with Intimidate to soften Waterfall. Beware of the uncommon combination of Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor, as it can 2HKO almost any Jellicent and Gyarados with some prior damage. Pokemon with weather-changing abilities, excluding Politoed (who actually benefits Kingdra), take away Kingdra's precious rain, putting a damper on its sweep. Ninetales, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon all must watch out for a STAB Water-type move heading their way, however. Abomasnow is practically the only weather inducer capable of defeating Rain Dance Kingdra, due to its high Special Defense and resistances to Water-type moves.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Unfortunately, Kingdra did not receive a more useful ability in the Dream World than Damp. Although Damp prevents Kingdra from being annihilated by Selfdestruct and Explosion, which would have normally stopped its sweep last generation, Swift Swim is in general more useful to take advantage of opposing Drizzle Politoed and Kingdra's own Rain Dance sets. Additionally, both Selfdestruct and Explosion have been nerfed in the generation shift, making them significantly less usable. Therefore, Damp is outclassed by Swift Swim, and possibly even Sniper, so it should never be used.</p>
  2. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Alrighty, I'm pretty much done with everything here except the bullet points. You guys feel free to comment on the analysis so far before I put the bullet points in!

    I want you guys, in particular, to tell me what you think of Specialized Dragon Dance. Hydro Pump and Life Orb stay like they did last generation, but I'm sure that Hidden Power Fire is a bit overspecific.

    also I can't believe I'm working on something with so many sets. AGAIN.
  3. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    Speaking of Water Absorbers, Unaware Quagsire. Any Kingdra set that isn't carrying a special Dragon-type attack will be walled hopelessly by Quagsire, and likely set up on. Not a common threat, but a tailor-made counter.

    I imagine all of those rain dance spreads have 168 to beat CS Flygon after a +2/rain boost. I don't think that's a significant milestone any more. These spreads have serious problems with modern scarf revenge killers, and probably need a few more points of speed to creep into another speed tier.

    CS Garchomp and CS Landorus outspeed all but the 252 speeders and the special attacking DD set. CS Mienshao and CS Thundurus outspeeds the special attacking DD set. All of these revenge attackers can threaten Kingdra with damage in the 60-85% range, with more depending on conditions. (Mienshao OHKOs with HJK after SR damage on 0 HP, 0 def Kingdra; Landorus does comparable damage with EQ in a sandstorm.) CS Latios isn't the only problem!

    You need 236 speed to beat CS Thundurus, 216 to beat CS Cobalion/Virizion/Terrakion, 196 to beat CS Mienshao, 176 to beat CS Garchomp, 172 to beat CS Landuros, and 168 to beat CS base 100s and slower.

    Useless trivia: 188 speed EVs will beat max speed, +spd nature, non-CS Deoxys-S. In case you were worried about that or something!
  4. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Alright, I'm pretty much done with the bullet points!

    Okay, so on the analysis, I made sure 176 Speed was the milestone for almost every Kingdra set, because it's more common than the supposed Scarf Mienshao or Thundurus. If anybody objects to this, say so. Choice Scarf Mienshao and Thundurus are a bit too uncommon because they could do a slightly better job with Regenerator and Prankster, respectively. Outspeeding Thundurus takes too much Speed EVs, anyway.

    I've also mentioned Unaware Quagsire as a counter to Dragon Dance Kingdra, but falls to special sets.

    And again, guys, please comment on whether Hidden Power Fire on the Specialized Dragon Dance set should stay or not. I'm neutral about it, actually.

    So...anyways, QC! And give competitive suggestions too.
  5. min min

    min min

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    You might want to list Heatrann as a teammate to scare out Ferrothorn, or pack another water-type with HP Fire as a Ferrothorn lure.
  6. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    Heatran's great and all, but there are rain-friendly options who scare out Thorn or even see Ferrothorn as a free set up opportunity, like Lucario and Breloom.
  7. Iconic

    Iconic
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    Alright so the QC team discussed Kingdra and we have a bunch of changes for you to make. Since there are so many changes this might be confusing, but I have a summary of what it should look like at the end.
    • Choice Specs is easily the most common and probably the most effective Kingdra set, and so it should be the first one listed. The EV spread lets you beat Base 80s like Mamoswine, but a Modest spread of 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Speed is an option to beat Tyranitar. Be sure to stress how important HP Fire is for Ferrothorn.
    • You can cut down on a lot of sets. Substitute + Dragon Dance, Double Dance and Special Rain Dance can go entirely because they're either just walled by too much or outclassed for the most part.
    • Mixed Dragon Dance should have Outrage, Hydro Pump / Waterfall and Hidden Power Fire as its attacks, since it's mainly a lure for common Dragon Dance Kingdra counters like Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Scizor. It's great at luring and killing them, which gives it the opportunity to come in late game and sweep with Outrage. Its spread should also be changed to 252 Atk / 112 SpA / 144 Spe which is enough to beat Base 115s after one Dragon Dance.
    • Be sure to list Swift Swim as the ability for each Kingdra set. Although it can't be used in tandem with Politoed, it's a great option to counter opposing Rain Dance teams, especially considering it has a nice 4x resistance to Water.
    • ChestoRest and Mixed Rain Dance sets are fine. The order for the sets should be Choice Specs > Mixed Dragon Dance > ChestoRest > Mixed Rain Dance.
    Here's what the analysis should look like. Make these changes and consider it approved.

    Show Hide
    [Set]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Dragon Pulse / Surf
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

    [Set]
    name: Mixed Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Waterfall
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Lonely
    evs: 252 Atk / 112 SpA / 144 Spe

    [Set]
    name: ChestoRest Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Outrage
    move 4: Rest
    item: Chesto Berry
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 144 HP / 148 Atk / 40 SpD / 176 Spe

    [Set]
    name: Mixed Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Draco Meteor
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Mild
    evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
  8. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Too many sets yes, but they all have their uses (much more than what other Pokemon can claim in Kingdra's case). Whatever you remove, I think they should be mentioned in OO at least. I used the Substitute + Dragon Dance here and there before, and it still works (though it is walled heavily by Ferrothorn and some others).
  9. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    I made the changes. Good to go, though I hesitate to say that Choice Specs is the most effective Kingdra set out there, and that Special Rain Dance Kingdra is "outclassed". As Aero Legend commented, I put the other sets into OO, at least, due to them being viable with Ferrothorn removed. I'd also like to say that the scrapped sets are still technically viable with ferrothorn removed, and ably handles bulky threats better than the Mixed Dragon Dance set.

    Anyways, uh...disregarding thoughts, I believe this is ready for stamps.
  10. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Double Dance is a MUST MUST MUST! It gives you the option to Dragon Dance or Rain Dance depending on the speed of the counter. More importantly, changing the weather in this metagame is valuable enough regardless of if Kingdra decides to sweep or not. I strongly suggest, QC re-evaluate this.
  11. mattinui

    mattinui

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    Why did you remove Sub - Dance? It is still extremely effective and outclasses choice specs for sure. You cant fear running the set because of one poke, ie Ferrothorn.
  12. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    I am pretty unsure of QC's decisions on this, don't worry guys. Honestly? Water-type STAB and a Pursuit neutrality are only a few reasons to use Specs Kingdra over things like, let's say Latios. Specs Kingdra was only at its peak when Aldaron's Proposal wasn't passed. Changing the weather and ridding of the threat of both Sun and Sandstorm teams area huge plus, so I think they should get more credit and be placed on a higher order. Also, I still think all Dragon-Dancing sets are viable, so I ask QC to reevaluate.
  13. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I also question the Choice Specs being the first set. I have no doubts that it's very effective however. It's just that I've been always able to do more with Dragon Dance.
  14. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Not a single mention of Magnezone for Ferro-mating utility and drago-steel resistances?
  15. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Now how could I forget good old Magnezone? Updated.

    Also, reconsideration of sets.

    EDIT: I finished writing up the Overview and Counters sections for Kingdra. No need to beat around the bush with these two because most likely won't be changed.
  16. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    what do the 176 speed evs allow u to outspeed?
  17. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    176 Speed EVs allow Kingdra to outrun Choice Scarf Garchomp after two boosts to its Speed. Because Choice Scarf Garchomp is so significant and common in this metagame, it's basically a stepping stone for any Pokemon boosting its speed. After Rain Dance or two Dragon Dances, Garchomp is easily moderated.

    Also, put in the Dream World section-Details and such. Ready for QC checks.
  18. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    Any thoughts of using hp fighting instead of fire? assuming kingdra is used in the rain (which i believe is how he is used the most) hp fire and fighting have the same bp against ferrothorn, but at the same time if a ttar comes in on you u can use hp fighting on him. it also gives you a move to use against politoed instead of draco meteor/outrage if you dont want the negative effects of either.

    i could be missing something... but i feel like this makes sense....

    EDIT: forgot no one in their right minds would switch into ttar when u have a kingdra nevermind....
  19. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    You have your STAB Water moves for Tyranitar, remember?
  20. banditking15

    banditking15

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    Yea but the point he is trying to make is that with HP fighting it can hit Ferrothorn better under the rain. This isnt true. we can see that even under the rain HP fire does a bit more even under the rain, although to be honest your better off just switching out to something that can actually kill ferrothorn. i cant post all the math but ill post the numbers i got .
    Max Special Attack Kingdra HP fighting to Max HP Max SpD Ferrothorn= 106 (there are decimals but it rounds down)
    Max Special Attack Kingdra HP Fire to Max HP MAX SpD Ferrothorn= 110 (decimals that round down also)

    just a little more damage but still.
  21. kaonohiokala

    kaonohiokala

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    Double Dance Kingdra was a great set from last generation and still deserves its own set in this generation's analysis. :/
  22. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Yeah, I know...

    It's just that the Kingdra analysis is pretty debateable right now because of QC and some apparent problems like being outclassed and Ferrothorn. I can see the merit in the Double Dancing set.
  23. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    for the mixed rain dance set, what about a physically based mixed rain dance set of
    -252atk/80spa/176spe @life orb
    -rain dance
    -waterfall
    -outrage
    -hydro pump

    plays similarly to the current mix set except physically based. i've used this set to great effect because draco meteor ruins the current one after a single use, so with outrage you can continue sweeping after outrage if you dont need to switch out
  24. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Well, I'll be the first to say that there was a physically-based Rain Dance Kingdra set in early DP, and it was successful due to the lack of things expecting a boosted Kingdra Life Orb Waterfall. While this is a considerable spread, I'll list the current Mixdra spread as the main one due to just breaking things with Hydro Pump (OHKOes Scizor).

    I do give credit to Maximum Rain Dacne Waterfull for being a wonderful cleanup move, so when allowed, I'll give a descriptive mention of it.

    And also, as usual, ready for QC Checks. I'm considering this a priority due to being one of the 12 OU analyses NOT Done or in Copyediting. Consider Kingdra's viability carefully.
  25. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    For anything with HP Fire, remember your speed is reduced. So the first set needs 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe to outspeed base 80s.

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