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Kingdra (BW2 Revamp) (QC 0/3) [edit 10/10 I'm still working on this stuff]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by AccidentalGreed, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I have been using Kingdra, and frankly I think Timid Specs is where its at.

    Let's face it, Kingdra's only use in OU is as an anti-metagame Pokemon. If you are using Kingdra, you are throwing something on your team to take down Ferrothorn (sunny day magnezone, lol) and calling it a day when it comes to rain teams, since Kingdra practically checkmates the whole team once Ferrothorn is out.

    So, imo, Kingdra doesn't need to bother setting up, or letting itself get whittled away by Life Orb as it tries (and often fails) to sweep.

    Nah... Kingdra just needs to conserve its strength for once Ferro down, and then sweep/destroy the entire Rain team. If he's not doing that (the enemy isn't using Politoed), he'll pull his wait just switching in as a "bulky water" a couple of times and blasting shit to pieces with his specs attacks (a typical wallbreaker).

    I think Timid Specs is the best set because you get the most power without compromising your health to try to set up or use LO for power (cause let's face it, Kingdra NEEDS some kind of boost to its power), AND you get to outrun and kill everyone who is trying to use Rain Dance Kingdra or some other mixed Kingdra. You ensure you outrun Cloyster in Rain too, who you'll destroy with Dragon Pulse. Or even rain surf for that matter...

    Just my opinions.
  2. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    great job overall on this analysis, dude. the only problems i'm encountering are on the mixed dd set and the ordering of the sets in general.

    first, on the mixed dd, for the item, a lum berry needs to be slashed in with life orb, as it's a completely viable option that may allow you to snag that extra dragon dance on jellicent or whatever and make all the difference. also, it's very helpful for when you need to break out of the confusion that outrage induces after 2-3 turns of use. next, still on the mixed dd set, both draco meteor and ice beam deserve a mention. draco meteor is great for hitting stuff really hard when a) waterfall is not very effective and b) you don't want to get locked into outrage yet but still require use of a dragon-type move. next, ice beam is a great option for stuff like celebi that can ruin kingdra's fun, as with no spa investment, after rocks, waterfall, and ice beam, even specially defensive celebi will fall to kingdra's might. in fact, i question why hp fire is there at all - most sensible kingdra won't even attempt a sweep until ferrothorn is weakened enough that a +1 waterfall will take it out. besides, isn't kingdra supposed to be anti-rain? hp fire's power is going to be cut in half under those weather conditions. it doesn't make sense to run hp fire for a pokemon that you know is going to be hiding behind drizzle all day. still on the mixed dd set, i highly question your ev spread. wasting that much in spa just for one move? nah, that's pointless. half the time when i'm sweeping with kingdra i don't even get around to using my special attack. waterfall and outrage are quite often enough to do the job. for that reason, i suggest an ev spread of 252 atk / 28 satk / 232 spd, which will ensure you enough power to easily nab a ko on standard rain ferrothorn below 40% at +1. then you can use that special moveslot for something more important, like the other options i listed above.

    finally, the order of the sets needs a change. #1 should be chestorest kingdra, a set popularized by twash but now the most used kingdra set. second should be the mixed dd set, again, the second most common kingdra set. third would be the final dd kingdra, sub dd, keeping in tune with the order of the previous two. the last two are up to you what order you want to put them in - personally, i'd go #4 rain dance, #5 specs, but that's merely personal preference, so adjust those to your whim.

    that's all i have for you. again, nice analysis. please consider the changes i suggested, and thanks for reading!
  3. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    I really think that Draco Meteor should be the primary Dragon-type STAB for Rain Dance Kingdra. Your Water-type STAB is usually going to be what you use for your end-game sweep. Dragon Pulse is comparatively weak; a resisted STAB Hydro Pump in rain is just as strong as a neutral Dragon Pulse; generally all Dragon Pulse has in advantage over a resisted Hydro Pump is accuracy and the ability to hit Dragon-types super effectively. This is compounded by Kingdra's relatively low Special Attack. On the other hand, Draco Meteor obtains notable KOs, and can bludgeon Pokemon that could otherwise impede a Hydro Pump sweep. Kingdra will be forced out afterwards, but with one less way for the opponent to handle Hydro Pump, it will be much more likely that Kingdra can sweep on the next go-around. With Dragon Pulse though, situations arise where a Pokemon that would be KO'd by a Draco Meteor will live a Dragon Pulse and get to get in a hit, or miss a 2HKO that Draco Meteor would miss. Some examples:

    LO Modest Dragon Pulse vs 0/0 Keldeo: 57% - 67.2%
    LO Modest Dragon Pulse vs 0/0 Rotom-W: 66.4% - 78.4%
    LO Modest Dragon Pulse vs 0/0 Starmie: 74.7% - 87.7%
    LO Modest Dragon Pulse vs 248 HP Jellicent: 40.2% - 47.6%
    LO Modest Dragon Pulse vs 0/0 Venusaur: 56.1% - 66.1%

    LO Modest Draco Meteor vs 0/0 Keldeo: 89.2% - 105%
    LO Modest Draco Meteor vs 0/0 Rotom-W: 103.3% - 122%
    LO Modest Draco Meteor vs 0/0 Starmie: 114.9% - 135.6%
    LO Modest Draco Meteor vs 248 HP Jellicent: 62.5% - 73.7%
    LO Modest Draco Meteor vs 0/0 Venusaur: 87% - 102.7%

    I also believe that Hydro Pump is essential and shouldn't be done without due to its raw power and how much easier it is to propagate a sweep when using it, but I can understand the viewpoint of keeping Surf slashed. Personally, I feel that Surf is at its best as the fourth move, as a back-up option when a Hydro Pump miss could be fatal.

    So, I recommend the set order be:

    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Draco Meteor
    move 4: Surf / Dragon Pulse / Ice Beam

    Alternatively, if QC is insistent on Surf remaining slashed with Hydro Pump:

    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Draco Meteor
    move 4: Dragon Pulse / Ice Beam / Surf
  4. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Thanks guys.

    @Tobes: I did the latter, except with a little tweak. Since Surf is, indeed, good (not to mention reliable) alongside Hydro Pump, it'll get the first slash in the last slot. Dragon Pulse and Ice Beam are slashed next to it. Otherwise, nice catch.

    @Lavos Spawn: I know we didn't talk about it much on IRC yesterday, but because of the changes you suggested, I have to test things out a little more, especially concerning the Mixed Dragon Dance set. Draco Meteor and Lum Berry I definitely agree with, but I'll have to make some EV spread changes based on that (since 28 EVs aren't nearly enough to KO some key threats). I'll also keep in mind the order of the sets.

    Also, I know I'm a horrible person for presenting more sets, but I was thinking of adding a set like this soon, since I've been testing it out a couple battles:

    [SET]
    name: Double Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe

    Basically, the premise behind this set is to use either Dance depending on the situation; if you want the weather advantage against other weathers besides Drizzle, use Rain Dance to throw off the momentum. If Rain Dance isn't required because the opposing team has Drizzle (or you just don't need Rain Dance at all for some reason), use Dragon Dance and cleanly sweep that team after counters have been accounted for. If Kingdra manages to get two dances up, good luck. Yes, I know, it's walled by Ferrothorn, but so is every other set.
  5. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Are DD sets even worth it on Kingdra? Most Kingdra sets I encounter our purely special, since they pack immediate punch. Kingdra's Outrage is piss-weak (weaker than Flygon), and DD doesn't exactly solve Kingdra's Ferro weakness, so I don't see much going for it. Personally, I would dump all DD sets into OO.
  6. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Ah I knew this would happen.

    I'm not particularly opposed to the idea, Pocket, and I definitely won't deny that Rani Dance sets in general are more beneficial and powerful. I, however, have attachments to the offensive Dragon Dance set w/Hydro Pump. Once I get off my break (a little longer, if you're wondering, plus I gotta go finish up that Gothitelle analysis), I'll go do extensive testing on all the DD sets. Sorta hard since hardly anybody bothers enough to Kingdra to give feedback :/
  7. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    sorry guys.

    as selfish as this sounds I don't want to write the same thing twice in a row, and evidently there's far too few users of Kingdra to help me write/test out some parts this analysis. I'm moving on to bigger fish. Someone who can write more concisely and perhaps have the fortune of encountering users of Kingdra can have this, although the new thread will be put under close scrutiny by me.

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