So, uh, maybe I'm overlooking something (I might, I'm hardly any kind of expert or anything) but isn't Gale Wings Talonflame a pretty decent answer even to the Swagkey set?
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Pokémon Klefki
- Thread starter Kirbles
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Gale Wings doesn't even play a factor in this matchup: just Flare Blitz the thing. Just don't expect to walk away not paralyzed.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Either way, if it is placed, expect it to be below the aforementioned sets because it's kinda digging at the bottom of the barrel at this point.
Yeah, it's what I was thinking. The reason I mentioned Gale Wings though was because, I know it's resisted but if most swagkeys would invest their EVs in SDef instead of Def, could a LO Brave Bird or a Flying Gem Acrobatics be enough?
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252+ Atk (custom) Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def (custom): 84-100 (26.41 - 31.44%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Not even close. At least it can break a Substitute.
Hahahaha well okay then. Guess I was being too optimistic :]
Still, Flare Blitz would work, hax notwithstanding. Thanks for the info tho!
Still, Flare Blitz would work, hax notwithstanding. Thanks for the info tho!
What you think competitive battling should be about is irrelevant. If you think guns are unsportsmanlike and swords are a more 'respectable' or gentlemanly game... don't be upset when your opponent shoots you in the face and the only person who cares is you. Your opponent wins, you lose, and your opponent isn't punished for it. If there's no rule against it, it's fair game. It's not people who 'don't care about sportsmanship'... if the rules don't state anything about SwagKey, then there's nothing unsportsmanlike about it. You could come up with any arbitrary reason for not liking one thing or another, that doesn't make you right outside of your own head.
If you're playing to win, these kinds of self-imposed restrictions will keep you from ever being among the greatest players.
Great players don't rely on luck to win, they rely on skill. That's the whole point of competition, to tell who's faster, stronger, or in the case of Pokemon, smarter. Tell me that Swagki takes skill to use, and I'll call you a liar. There's a reason why people don't play War (the card game) competitively.
Swagki is like playing Russian Roulette. Nobody actually knows who's going to win, its all about the luck of it.
Your analogy of bringing a sword to a gun fight is off. That's more like bringing Pikachu to an Ubers match. To use a somewhat similar analogy, fighting Swagki is more like trying to knife a guy randomly firing mortars without aiming. He might hit you, he might not, but if he does, its no feat of skill and aim of his own.
Also, there's no rules about spawn camping in FPS games. That doesn't make it not unsportsmanlike.
I can see the logic in your analogies, SwagKey is pretty unethical but is still a way to win. If I may add on to your analogy, using SwagKey is not like using a gun, but rather like using a gun that also has a barrel pointing at themselves. Players are free to use that gun, but shouldn't be expecting anything otherwise if they one day shoot themselves with it. Better players tend to not take this risk.
I also have seen comments about running Ditto alongside SwagKey to take advantage of the occasional backfiring. This seems like a neat idea, but it isn't new, and there's a reason why Liepard + Ditto, a combo eligible in BW NU, hasn't caught on as a craze:
1) Ditto is Scarfed (it has to be to not speedtie everything it copies), so its +2 Choiced attack can only carry it so far against a well-built team before it is forced to relinquish the boost. The most common type of Pokemon that defeated the paraSwag user Ditto will be copying are Electric-types and Ground-types, which don't have the most spammable of STABs.
2) The combo happen to be highly ineffective against stall, due to the latter's bulk and healing moves. The match turns into 6 bulky Pokemon vs 4 Pokemon + 2 deadweights, which is...less than ideal.
Actually Swagkey I find is pretty effective against stall if you can eliminate Roar users first; because the attack boost isn't enough to get swept; but is enough to deal heavy damage with confusion/Foul Play after multiple Swaggers; while stall-oriented pokemon cannot easily break Klefki's subs without being Swaggered. Klefki cannot be poisoned either; so is not easy to whittle down.
Also; there is some element of skill in using Klefki; because it is still rather fragile and it is not easy to get the sub up and keep it up to Swagger safely behind. You have to get Klefki in at the right time.
Also; there is some element of skill in using Klefki; because it is still rather fragile and it is not easy to get the sub up and keep it up to Swagger safely behind. You have to get Klefki in at the right time.
No, great players use any means at their disposal within the rules of the competition to win. If SwagKey beats you, that's it, you lost, there's nothing more to it. It doesn't matter if its the final match of a tournament, it doesn't matter if you THINK you're the better player... you either win or you lose. You can believe whatever you want if it makes you feel better about your loss but to downplay the victor for whatever strategy they used on you? THAT is unsportsmanlike. Shake their hand and tell them it was a good game, even if you don't really think so. Direct your bitterness towards the tournament directors that didn't ban the use of SwagKey, or the developers of the game for making such a strategy plausible in the first place.
The fact that this is even an issue worth discussing should speak high enough about its viability. This is just flinchhax all over again.
I don't claim to know what sort of teams win in the VGC competitions, but there are people abusing the everliving hell out of evasion or weatherspeed. I'm 99% certain the people who don't out of respect for what they feel is 'fair' (by smogon's own rulesets or otherwise) don't get very far in these things.
It's not the unsportsmanship of it. It's the unreliability. Swagkey, but its very nature, is dependent upon factors outside of your control. As such, it cannot be depended upon. For every time it works, there are countless other times it does not.
Against offense, Foul Play can hit the majority of them for solid damage, and it can Swagger if it wants for some extra oomph. The reason I claimed SwagKey being fairly ineffective against stall is because it has to Swagger just to get reasonable damage off. The bulky Pokemon can switch in and out of battle to deny you the boosted Foul Play, some Pokemon with low enough Attack and high enough Defense can even allow themselves to get away with +4 to psych you out, only to evade your grasp by switching out again. Klefki has to Swagger against a fresh wall every time before attacking, which is ample time for the stall team to heal and drain your PP away, or just retaliate. Something like Gliscor, Hippowdon, or lol Own Tempo Avalugg can outright invalidate the use of SwagKey. Being immune to Toxic is favorable for Klefki though.
As you said, Klefki still incorporates some skill as it needs to find the right time to come in and not get walloped as it sets up, but if you're going to setup anyway why not go for Spikes or Dual Screens, the former cannot be rid off easily while the latter can give you ample time to setup your sweepers and steamroll the opposition (which I may add, is especially effective against stall, particularly with a setup Magic Bouncer like SD Mega-Absol or CM Espeon).
You talk like "being a great pokemon-player" is something actually important; Most players play for fun, and quite frankly, it's neither fun to lose against hax-reliant builds, nor fun to win with it yourself, since it only needs a minimum amount of skill(mind you that minimum skill =|= no skill) and is mostly luck-based.
Maybe I'm weird, but if I win, I want to look back and think "yeah, it was because I was better" and if I lose, I want to think " yeah I made that fault, but I can get better" instead of thinking "meh had bad luck, I'll try another time".
Also, viability and sportsmanship are two completely unrelated concepts. The one is about how strong something is, the other is about how the usage of it creates or prevents a healthy, fair metagame which also allows variety.
Though I agree with you that it's dominantly the fault of the organizer of a tier/tournament etc. . That's why I personally don't play WiFi and stuff.
I see a lot of back and forth on swagkey. There are multiple sets to run on a poke. Just because its not listed on smogons site doesnt make it effective. For example specs blastoise caught on in late gen 5 uu.
The whole point im making is that if there are more strategies then that makes the game more enjoyable. Heck thats the reazon i stopped playing ou in gen 5. There was no originality.
Swagkey is based on percentages which can be exploited. While it is annoying its a viable strategy with its own counters (any magic bounce ground or electric type). So while swagkey isnt as annoying as jirachi or togekiss with paraflinch (little to no skill to plah) its effective.
Lets also keep in mind other effective styles that require little skill but are highly effective: baton passing teamz and hyper offensive.
The whole point im making is that if there are more strategies then that makes the game more enjoyable. Heck thats the reazon i stopped playing ou in gen 5. There was no originality.
Swagkey is based on percentages which can be exploited. While it is annoying its a viable strategy with its own counters (any magic bounce ground or electric type). So while swagkey isnt as annoying as jirachi or togekiss with paraflinch (little to no skill to plah) its effective.
Lets also keep in mind other effective styles that require little skill but are highly effective: baton passing teamz and hyper offensive.
I don't get this whole SwagKey debate. Frankly, SwagKey is hilarious. People just need to get in the habit of using Lum Berry more. It's an incredibly underrated item that can turn almost any Pokemon into a Klefki check, among other things. Hax are part of the game, and we have to embrace them and play around them.
Frankly, I don't see this set as being as annoying as ParaFlinch Jirachi and Togekiss. Not only do they have a higher chance of stopping your attack, they're bulkier and pack a recovery move. Sure, Klefki will kill you faster, but that just makes it less annoying. I'd much rather hit myself and get nailed with Foul Play to die in 2-3 turns than get paraflinched for 4-6. SwagKey is neither uncounterable nor reliable. So long as both players are on an even playing field, the game is plenty fair. Using SwagKey doesn't make you unsportsmanlike. Yes, it's a factor towards that, but there's a lot more that contribute to being sportsmanlike than just 'not using SwagKey.' The chance of you getting paralyzed or hitting yourself in confusion isn't much lower than your chances of hitting Focus Blast. Does using Focus Blast make someone unsportsmanlike?
On the topic of it's viability, I can definitely see it being good and deserving a spot on the OP. Saying this set isn't reliable enough is just a matter of opinion, and we should let the people looking over the sets determine whether it's worth the risk. It definitely has the potential to do some damage, and even if we think it falls a little short of the other sets, it's certainly not by much.
Frankly, I don't see this set as being as annoying as ParaFlinch Jirachi and Togekiss. Not only do they have a higher chance of stopping your attack, they're bulkier and pack a recovery move. Sure, Klefki will kill you faster, but that just makes it less annoying. I'd much rather hit myself and get nailed with Foul Play to die in 2-3 turns than get paraflinched for 4-6. SwagKey is neither uncounterable nor reliable. So long as both players are on an even playing field, the game is plenty fair. Using SwagKey doesn't make you unsportsmanlike. Yes, it's a factor towards that, but there's a lot more that contribute to being sportsmanlike than just 'not using SwagKey.' The chance of you getting paralyzed or hitting yourself in confusion isn't much lower than your chances of hitting Focus Blast. Does using Focus Blast make someone unsportsmanlike?
On the topic of it's viability, I can definitely see it being good and deserving a spot on the OP. Saying this set isn't reliable enough is just a matter of opinion, and we should let the people looking over the sets determine whether it's worth the risk. It definitely has the potential to do some damage, and even if we think it falls a little short of the other sets, it's certainly not by much.
I agree on HO, but baton passing is neither highly effective nor easy to play imho. In fact, I can't remember having lost against a baton passing team even once, and I only see baton pass quite low on the ladder.
Well, anyway, I actually don't see SwagKey as that menacing; As you said, it's more annoying than actually threatening against everything but VERY offense teams, and even these can deal with it by having a specially based ground/electic types (watch out that physical ones might still kill themselves, so it's not like what you stated that EVERY ground/electric is a check).
Bleh. I just get really annoyed when every opponent I face that uses Klefki has the balls to use Swagger right off the bat against my Excadrill or Garchomp, and then manages to come out on top because of that stupid 50% chance to not hit at the beginning. That's basically a game being decided on a 50/50 toss of the coin.
If that's part of the game, then that's part of the game, whatever. Maybe I'll just stick with UU again this gen if Klefki makes the OU cut.
If that's part of the game, then that's part of the game, whatever. Maybe I'll just stick with UU again this gen if Klefki makes the OU cut.
eh SwagKey is an effective set despite all the hate it's getting. It surely deserves a spot in the OP, notwithstanding it's a luck based strategy with it's flaws. Luck has been and will continue to remain a dominant force in competitive pkmn, and anyone who can abuse it will abuse it. I'd rather people become more aware of this inanely stupid and effective set so they don't fall for this silly gimmick to some random spammer. Paralysis and confusion both are much more easy to avoid this gen.
Yeah... Twave Swagger Key is incredibly irritating to fight. Regardless of luck factor involved. The hate is probably because it's effectively annoying.
Do people not play pokemon for fun anymore? I understand that it get's more serious when you start getting into competitive battling but the main reason a lot of us started pokemon was to have fun. Not only do I find it un-satisfying to win with a swagger t-wave pokemon, I also find my self losing more then I win with them.
That's just your opinion, albeit a very agreeable one. That said, not everyone is going to agree with it. There are plenty of people who will build a team of Paraflinch Jirachi, Paraflinch Togekiss, and SwagKey just to get laughs. On PO, I've run into a whole team of nothing but hax strats that the opponent put together just for fun.
Still, I think we're blowing this out of proportion. Besides the aforementioned scenario and maybe filling a niche role on a few teams, we won't be seeing much of this set. I certainly think it's viable, but it is by no means consistent, so it isn't particularly appealing. With the new Pokemon hype dying down, we should see less Klefki in general.
I played a bunch of ladder games on shodown(pre bank), hovering around 1900 rating. Swag key is absolutely the most ridiculous and hard to deal with thing I've played against. It's FAR too easy for that thing to do far more damage than it should for far too little effort. I have not once seen a swag key have less effect than any other form of klefki. MY best response so far has been Roar/Roost Zapdos, assuming I can keep rocks away with a paralyzed blastoise, and I don't get unlucky and hit myself in the confusion more than once in a row. Own tempo doesn't really help because nothing that gets it is immune to paralyze. I guess slowbro or avalugg and a few other guys probably don't care THAT much about paralyze, but basically anything is going to suffer from random lost turns. Lum berry works once I guess, but klefki doesn't exactly have a hard time getting in with it's really good typing and reasonable defenses. Ground and electric types work as long as they switch into a TWave, otherwise it's a crapshoot roll of the dice, but klefki's priority sub gives it a HUGE advantage in the game of chance, and even if it loses it doesn't DIE it just has to switch out after losing about half health, which means it gets to come in and try again. and when it wins it often goes back up to full, or at least mcuh closer to full.
IMO I've never felt like none swagger klefki's make much of an impact, and every swag key I've every fought has crippled or killed at least 1 or 2 pokemon, and I have literally been 6-0 swept from confusion procs.
edit: To be more clear, for all those lauding it's poor consistency, I don't think I've seen anything as consistently impactful as swag key in the pre bank ou meta yet. Not mega gengar, mega tyranitar, talon flame etc...
IMO I've never felt like none swagger klefki's make much of an impact, and every swag key I've every fought has crippled or killed at least 1 or 2 pokemon, and I have literally been 6-0 swept from confusion procs.
edit: To be more clear, for all those lauding it's poor consistency, I don't think I've seen anything as consistently impactful as swag key in the pre bank ou meta yet. Not mega gengar, mega tyranitar, talon flame etc...
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