Lead Theory Discussion

[haunter]

LO Mamoswine is a pretty sick lead for me so far, as it basically comes out of every big lead matchup easy mode, outspeeding junk like Heatran and Metagross and OHKOing with EQ, surviving Jirachi's Iron Head and OHKOing, 2KOing Azelf and Aerodactyl with Ice Fang + Ice Shard.

I agree with Mamoswine being a great lead, but I would never stay in against a Jirachi, a single flinch from iron head means that you've lost your lead and possibly your only stealth rocker on the team.

I think that people often underestimate the usefulness of a suicide lead. I completely agree with Stathakis, when your lead sets up SR, prevents your opponent's lead to set up his own rocks and explodes or sets up a screen, I believe that it gives your team a great advantage over your opponent, especially if you're playing an offensive team.
Obviously, if you're going to play stall, such a lead would be pretty useless.

 

[zarator]

Missed this. Yanmega I get what you're saying, but how the hell is Gyara not a team player? Intimidate is probably one of the best abilities an offensive team could ask for in a lead, nabbing immediate advantage without even using a move!

And what advantage it is-- it means that even if Gyara is forced out, whatever teammate follows it is almost guaranteed to have an easier time because Gyara was there. Azelf, Jirachi, Aerodactyle, Swampert, Bronzong, Ambipom, Weavile, Mamoswine, Breloom and more are badly crippled IMMEDIATELY just because Gyara led off. Baton pass leads like Zapdos and Ninjask also find themselves in a difficult position as suddenly those boosts they're looking to pass are a lot less relevent. On a team without ridiculously powered defensive stats, intimidate can make all the difference in the game's momentum.

Gyara can't set up SR, but it can stop all the slower leads (Smeargle, Heatran, Metagross, Swampert, Hippowdon, Bronzong, breloom etc. etc.) from doing it (or anything else), and can bash all the faster ones into the ground (can bash a bunch of the slower ones into the ground too).

Moreover, if a poke like Gyara or Yanmega can lead off the battle, it's SR weakness becomes a lot less relevent, making the opponents time to use the move that much less meaningful. The threat of massive attacks and a possible boosted sweep causes chaos, forces switches, and can bring even more momentum to your side.

I'd doubt Gyara's usefulness as a lead on a defensive team, but on an offensive one, I doubt there are many leads who are better, or are better team-players.

Yeah, I spelt it wrongly. What I meant is that a lead must be a team player for your team. And maybe I made Gyarados example since it didn't suited most of my teams.

For example, my teams where for the most part based on spike-shuffling and lategame sweeping, so a suicide lead, an anti-lead or a gyara lead would have been completely out of place. But yeah, Gyarados is great on offensive teams, and one of the reason I put HP Electric on my Swampert lead - the threat of the "chaos" you mentioned was too big to withstand.

@noob3: I completely disagree. Have you ever read Jumpman16's article for ADV leading Pokémon? I suppose no. If your lead does not accomplish nothing more than bring in the usual counter - such as a Starmie Surfing the incoming Blissey - then, what you accomplished? Yeah, you have scouted a bit, but nothing else. And when you think to how many other things your lead could do - setting up SR, preventing SR from being set up, put up screens, setup a field effect of any kind etc - you realize that little piece of information you gained looks quite... useless.

Guys, I was thinking about a proposal. Probably most of you have in mind said Jumpman16's article. And also Gen.Empoleon Project Uber thread. What about starting something along the lines of a "Project lead" thread where we discuss and test patterns and sets for leads in the Platinum metagame?

 

[E.A.]

I think that people often underestimate the usefulness of a suicide lead. I completely agree with Stathakis, when your lead sets up SR, prevents your opponent's lead to set up his own rocks and explodes or sets up a screen, I believe that it gives your team a great advantage over your opponent, especially if you're playing an offensive team. Obviously, if you're going to play stall, such a lead would be pretty useless.

The problem with suicide leads (and most defensively weak Pokemon in general) is that there's so many priority moves going around, and bulkier leads have begun carrying berries like the Shuca or Occa Berries in order to survive longer, and to prevent being KOed by the likes of the more powerful suicide leads. Metagross is a perfect example of why suicide leads are not used as much: Bullet Punch, in tangent with decent defensive stats and the ever present Occa berry, derails almost every attempt to take him down. I understand the usefulness of leads like Aerodactyl and Azelf, but not being able to survive long nor being able to take out an opposing lead hurts.

Zarator, that would not be a a bad idea. Having a project trying to determine useful leads would not be a bad idea.

 

[Lord Blood]

The problem with suicide leads (and most defensively weak Pokemon in general) is that there's so many priority moves going around, and bulkier leads have begun carrying berries like the Shuca or Occa Berries in order to survive longer, and to prevent being KOed by the likes of the more powerful suicide leads. Metagross is a perfect example of why suicide leads are not used as much: Bullet Punch, in tangent with decent defensive stats and the ever present Occa berry, derails almost every attempt to take him down. I understand the usefulness of leads like Aerodactyl and Azelf, but not being able to survive long nor being able to take out an opposing lead hurts.

I definetly agree with this statement.

I do have a few comments. For one thing, SR isn't the only thing that goes around on Turn 1. I run a common U-Turn lead. With this, I can U-Turn out and then switch to an appropriate counter. So if I'm facing against a Swampert, then I can U-Turn out and go to a Pokemon with a Grass Attack. For some reason, whether it's me or not, I usually have to use common sense and normal prediction in the early stages of the match. It's like using a Fire/Ground attack against Metagross, who I hate seeing as a lead. But, as the battle develops, strategies become unfolded. You would then see that their SR user is using a TrickScarf or maybe they don't SR. My team is built around the fact that I defeat the lead, most preferably a common lead, and then later on in the battle, around when the first KO has happened, I use SR. For most teams, it's a Metagross or Swampert early SR lead. Then they can Tank and dish out as much damage as they can. So what I'm trying to say is that.

• Although SR is a common move around Turn 1, many other strategies can work around it.
• Most strategies depend on the person's playing style
• Prediction is less useful in the early stages as it is in the endgame.

 

[Mattman324]

I don't know what you're talking about. My personal lead is a dugtrio with stealth rock, sucker punch, Stone edge (all start with s... Coincidence?) and EQ. It is a very effective lead, just because no one leads with dugtrio!

 

[zarator]

I don't know what you're talking about. My personal lead is a dugtrio with stealth rock, sucker punch, Stone edge (all start with s... Coincidence?) and EQ. It is a very effective lead, just because no one leads with dugtrio!

I don't see how said Dugtrio lead can be effective against anything besides Heatran. Metagross will Bullet Punch for the 2HKO (assuming you have a Sash), Swampert does not care a shit about you thanks to his good defenses, most Jirachi will flinch-hax you to death... I simply cannot think of a single situation where Dugtrio could perform better than Azelf or Aerodactyl, who is even faster. You cannot account on people knowing what you are doing, because when they will meet you again, you will lost the surprise value, and Dugtrio will be like any other lead... A mediocre lead, to say the truth.

Lets analyze it further. It is obvious that Dugtrio wanna be a suicide lead. But, differently from Azelf and Aerodactyl, it cannot stop the opponent from put up SR. So, why choose it over the former two? If you only care about set up SR, you are better off with a bulkier lead such as Metagross. You may say "it works", but it is overall an inferior choice, most times

 

[Run]

The main debate here seems to be - Which is more valuable, getting Stealth Rock up, or being at a 5-6 advantage?

I'll take the 5-6 advantage anyday, but maybe that's because my team doesn't fear SR, I have a lot of bulky pokemon, none of which weak to rock.

The only real problem I have with suicide leads is that say you both get SR up then explode and you get a fresh 5-5, both with SR and a blind switch-in. The pokemon you switch in next could determine the game, its a gamble that may not be neccesary. Who do you switch in? are there reliable pokemon to switch in blind to keep from getting a disadvantage? Scizor and Infernape are both good options here. This is the kind of thing I want people to think about. How do you ensure that you have a real advantage after exploding? Don't think of your opening as complete until you've made the best blind switch-in choice after exploding.

 

[muna]

My lead strategy is actually a combination of two Pokemon and it is incredibly effective. Too many people prepare for Metagross leads now so I came up with a great way to counter that to an extent. My leads are:

Breloom @ Choice Scarf
Poison Heal
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Spore
-Superpower
-Stone Edge
-Seed Bomb

I always lead wit this. It can outspeed Azelf which is a great advantage on any lead. I immediately Spore unless I am fighting a faster tuant lead. Once the opponent's anti-lead or lead is asleep, I switch to my real lead:

Metagross @ Life Orb
Clear Body
Adamant
252 HP / 232 Atk / 8 Def / 12 Spe
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Meteor Mash
-Explosion

Now that their best shot against stopping a standard lead Metagross is basically disabled for the battle, I am usually in a good position to set up SR and play accordingly. Breloom can, of course, come in later as a reliable revenge killer.

This strategy almost makes it impossible for a foe to set up SR and gives you an advantage of having one of your opponent's Pokemon asleep which is basically a death sentence for them.

 

[Stathakis]

pokemon is such an offensive game that being 5-6 is just fine in exchange for sr and a free turn. things like sdluke and ddgyara and other nice junk can do so much with a turn that the 5-6 disadvantage generally lasts for like two turns.

that's if you're running a high power offensive team. if I were to be stalling, of course I would prefer to be 5-6 than to have sr down.

 

[zocho]

My lead strategy is actually a combination of two Pokemon and it is incredibly effective. Too many people prepare for Metagross leads now so I came up with a great way to counter that to an extent. My leads are:

Breloom @ Choice Scarf
Poison Heal
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Spore
-Superpower
-Stone Edge
-Seed Bomb

I always lead wit this. It can outspeed Azelf which is a great advantage on any lead. I immediately Spore unless I am fighting a faster tuant lead.

i hate that friggin fungus. i actually contemplated putting a sleep absorber on my team just for it, but i haven't seen it that much so not sure if it'll be worth it. lead breloom is good but spore is super predictable. any team with a sleep absorber will happily switch in for free since the most reliable thing to do is just spore.

 

[Chou Toshio]

pokemon is such an offensive game that being 5-6 is just fine in exchange for sr and a free turn. things like sdluke and ddgyara and other nice junk can do so much with a turn that the 5-6 disadvantage generally lasts for like two turns.

that's if you're running a high power offensive team. if I were to be stalling, of course I would prefer to be 5-6 than to have sr down.

Just because your team's lead was killed doesn't give you a "free turn" perse. You get a free switch in. Whether or not you can turn that free switch in into a real #s advantage is not secured. It's very possible you could miss-judge the set that the enemy has left in, or it could be a pokemon who doesn't give you the time to set up (for instance very few pokemon can happily set up on a Mamoswine or Infernape). Meanwhile even if you were to get a chance to set up, your opponent has all 6 of his pokemon. The odds that he has something in his team that can beat your set up is very high (who does not have answers to SD luke and DD mence on their team?).

I'm not saying the "free" switch in can't be used to buy back advantage-- for instance after my azelf lead got taken out I could just bring in a Salamence and Draco Meteor the crap out of whatever to even the score to 5-5, but then he gets his own free switch in to do the same. Unless I can do more to shift the weight in my favor, its a numbers game I'll eventually lose.

If my zelf got me SR + a screen, or SR + a huge smack to one of his pokes, I'll pat Azelf on the head and say he did a good job. If he got up rocks then got bullet punched to death before he could do anything else and left me to face a full health metagross with Occa Berry who can still Explode on me-- "Gdamn it Azelf, you suck!!" lolz

 

[Stathakis]

the thing you are missing, chou, is that despite people packing answers to things like ddmence and sdluke, that does'nt stop them from doing damage. there is no ddmence counter that isn't at 20% health or less by the time mence is dead. it's only a numbers game if you allow it to be one. but chances are, if you have 5 guys that are walled by the same thing, one of those guys might not live, but the other 4 are going to be doing a hell of a lot of damage. as long as your team is built correctly, you are almost always winning the numbers game.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Ok, then tell me how DD Mence or Luke set up on Infernape (who will be packing something amongst encore, endeavor and counter), Mamoswine (always has sash, Ice Shard and EQ), Metagross (explosion, eq), Swampert (EQ, often has ice beam and roar), Tyranitar (lead tar could very well be packing sash) or Jirachi? I can even throw in my Gyarados in there, and btw my lead Gyarados is always Jolly with EQ and Outrage (and taunt and waterfall), and while I sometimes like Choice Band, I've been more into LO lately so prepare for your DD mence or Luke to get stomped.

Because I'm arguing that 6 v. 5 + SR is shit for SR user, all the guys above are at full health with items in place (like berries and sashes). How do you propose to set up on them?

Answer, you flat out can't set up on them, not without ending up in range to be easily revenge killed yourself (lol, scizor). That was one of my important points.

 

[Stathakis]

Ok, then tell me how DD Mence or Luke set up on Infernape (who will be packing something amongst encore, endeavor and counter), Mamoswine (always has sash, Ice Shard and EQ), Metagross (explosion, eq), Swampert (EQ, often has ice beam and roar), Tyranitar (lead tar could very well be packing sash) or Jirachi? Because we're talking about a 6 v. 5 situation, these guys are at full health (and focus sashes in place on the ones who would hold them, like Infernape Mamoswine and Tyranitar).

Answer, you flat out can't set up on them, not without ending up in range to be easily revenge killed yourself (lol, scizor). That was one of my important points.

it doesn't have to be mence or luke. I mean, with infernape, you are taunting it and therefore gyara can set up on it. with mamoswine, it's basically whoever predicts correctly on the endeavor turn. swampert when taunted is setup bait for gyara and other waters, jirachi is basically do you get haxed or not.

with screens and things like intimidate, working in your favour, as well as sr being absent, its surprisingly easy to set up on things. and even if you get revnege killed, you are, more often than not, killing 2+ things in the process or crippling something important
wi

 

[ivar]

I've found that the lead pokemon is incredibly vulnerable to luck (and for obvious reasons). Without any knowledge of your opponent's lead, mismatches are impossible to control, but they can, I believe, be minimized if one takes an adaptive stance--that being, depending on the common leads of the current metagame, one should use a lead which can most effectively deal with the greatest amount (the anti-lead strategy). It's a bit of a balancing act (for example, one lead may deal with more threats, but another lead might deal with less threats, albeit more effectively). I also believe that the weaknesses of the lead to other common leads should be addressed with an easy switch-in (deliberately choosing a specific pokemon that perfectly deals with a specific weaknesses of your lead), to reduce your opponents momentum, or perhaps shift momentum in your favour. The easy switch-in should not, however, interfere with overall team synergy (which it can if you have a team of easy switch-ins for every weakness of your lead, possibly having a team that can be effective in the beginning, but later collapse due to an overwhelming amount of common weaknesses, or a lack of a deliberate strategy, such as stall or all out-offensive, if I am to name generic strategies).

This is all very vague, I know, but I haven't touched shoddy in like 3-4 months, and it was UU when I did, so my metagame knowledge is weak. In fact, hearing all this stuff about Jirachi is really surprising me.

I do see an exception with the variety of suicide lead that ChouToshio mentions: get up SR AND damage your opponent in some other way (whether it be setting up screens or exploding). The screens strategy just isn't what it used to be with the banning of Deoxys-e, though.

 

[Sir Crocodile]

sleep leads have died out ever since platinum came. i really think a scarf breloom needs more love because it pretty much gives you a head start with Spore. especially with the leads nowadays being bulky and putting them to sleep should do the trick. i remember back at d/p when hypnosis leads were the best leads, it's because sleep leads are the best. it prevents set-up and you are practically 5-6 because your opponent is unable to do anything.

 

[Chou Toshio]

it doesn't have to be mence or luke. I mean, with infernape, you are taunting it and therefore gyara can set up on it. with mamoswine, it's basically whoever predicts correctly on the endeavor turn. swampert when taunted is setup bait for gyara and other waters, jirachi is basically do you get haxed or not.

with screens and things like intimidate, working in your favour, as well as sr being absent, its surprisingly easy to set up on things. and even if you get revnege killed, you are, more often than not, killing 2+ things in the process or crippling something important
wi

When did you say anything about screening or intimidating or taunting? You said:

pokemon is such an offensive game that being 5-6 is just fine in exchange for sr and a free turn.

That's it, you only said SR and 5-6. In fact I made sure to say this:

If my zelf got me SR + a screen, or SR + a huge smack to one of his pokes, I'll pat Azelf on the head and say he did a good job. If he got up rocks then got bullet punched to death before he could do anything else and left me to face a full health metagross with Occa Berry who can still Explode on me-- "Gdamn it Azelf, you suck!!" lolz

In other words that's cheating! You can't say you have screens or taunt or intimidate up when you were only arguing about 6-5 + SR!!

Also you are NOT killing 2+ things when you are getting endeavored or countered or EQ'd or exploded or fire blasted or blah blah blah as you try to set up. You're being "shit that hurt!" as Scizor comes into revenge kill your practically dead set-up sweeper.

Also how the hell does Salamence or Gyarados get past Counter/Endeavor Infernape (while still being in a position to sweep) regardless of taunt? Even if it's a taunted encore infernape without counter/endeavor, you're still going to be taking blaze-boosted overheat/fire blast once you decide to attack into its sash, which hurts like a bitch regardless of resistance. Mamo can just SPAM endeavor after all. Swampert is a weak bitch once taunted, but then that's probably why I never lead with him . . . good point there. Also Jirachi does get hax often enough, deal with it! :P

In any case, the types of leads I mentioned are designed to handle opponents 1 on 1, so if they have full life and their item in place, setting up on them or taking them down is a bitch.

@Scarfbreloom-- can be effective, but quite frankly once it's done its thing everyone with a brain knows its scarfed, at which point it become a relatively useless pokemon, arguably of little more use than the pokemon it slept (and possibly even less if that poke manages to wake up later on), so it's like starting the match 5.5 v. 5.5 than starting the match 5 v. 6. Also I try to make sure my teams have a "secondary lead," another poke who does really good on double switch-ins just in case of such a situation. In the case of an offensive team using Gyara, Salamence is a nice 2nd intimidate lead.

 

[E.A.]

Sleep leads have disappeared mainly because Hypnosis' accuracy dropped. Breloom is probably the only viable OU Pokemon with a 100% sleep inducing move, and most other Sleep leads are too slow / have the 60% accurate Hypnosis.

Bulkey screen leads also seem like a fun thing to do this day an age. Making something like Infernape just a tad bulkier never hurts with all the priority moves around.

 

[zarator]

I wanted to ask a question that maybe can sound obvious. I hope it isn't. We all know that leads like Hippowdon are deemed god for a defensive - stall - team, while Pokémon like Heatran are better suited to lead off offensive teams.

What I meant to ask is: what make a SR lead better suited to an offensive rather than a defensive team? I limited this question to SR leads since other categories - weather leads, Trick Room/Gravity leads, Dual Screeners etc - are narrower so cant be explained in these terms.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@ExplorerAce-- You forgot scarf-smeargle, who imo is arguably even better since he can come back later and trick/spike/sr/destin bond/explosion/super fang/rapid spin/etc./etc.

 

[adman2]

I wanted to ask a question that maybe can sound obvious. I hope it isn't. We all know that leads like Hippowdon are deemed god for a defensive - stall - team, while Pokémon like Heatran are better suited to lead off offensive teams.

What I meant to ask is: what make a SR lead better suited to an offensive rather than a defensive team? I limited this question to SR leads since other categories - weather leads, Trick Room/Gravity leads, Dual Screeners etc - are narrower so cant be explained in these terms.

Stealth Rock turns many 2HKOs into OHKOs. Defensive teams are bulky enough that they can get away with setting up later, but offensive teams need their entry hazards as soon as possible.

 

[Stathakis]

ahh, chou, I have misunderstood you about the "sr for 5-6"

I meant using a specific suicide lead that taunts and puts up screens. as for other suicide leads, you're generally hurting the opponent a little after you get up sr. if I wanted screens and sr off, I would use azelf. for anything else, there are leads that do damage afterwards. in most cases, you will never be down 5-6 with only sr as compensation.

 

[Flashstorm1]

@ Chou: I'd like to emphasize that not all Infernape carry Endeavor + Vaccum Wave, and not all Mamoswine carry Endeavor. While your arguments are strong, you are trying to tell us that Mamoswine and Infernape will always be carrying "so and so" moves that prevent you from setting up, which is simply not true.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

@ExplorerAce-- You forgot scarf-smeargle, who imo is arguably even better since he can come back later and trick/spike/sr/destin bond/explosion/super fang/rapid spin/etc./etc.

ScarfSmeargle leads need more love. :D

@ Chou: I'd like to emphasize that not all Infernape carry Endeavor + Vaccum Wave, and not all Mamoswine carry Endeavor. While your arguments are strong, you are trying to tell us that Mamoswine and Infernape will always be carrying "so and so" moves that prevent you from setting up, which is simply not true.

Don't a large of majority of Mamoswine leads run Endeavor? Ditto for Infernape leads and Encore or Endeavor? I really haven't been keeping up-to-date with the OU metagame...

 

[Flack]

Stealth Rock turns many 2HKOs into OHKOs. Defensive teams are bulky enough that they can get away with setting up later, but offensive teams need their entry hazards as soon as possible.

While this is true, hail and sandstorm can turn 2HKO's into 1HKO's, and many mixed pokemon shave EV's off of their attacking stats because they know stealth rock will care for the rest. But the absence of a pokemon on a team can make a huge difference. I feel that stealth rock should be a priority, but not THE top priority for a team. Because I usually start with a bulkier pokemon, such as swampert, stealth rock can be the beginning for me. But if I can eliminate a pokemon without being killed, I WILL attack instead of setting up SR. The lead infernapes are a good example of this for me.