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Little Cup Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by macle, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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    I'm echoing Delver here:

    Reliable recovery is debatable as, like Hawkstar said, Morning Sun is nerfed by Sand and Hail. I'd add SPEED as one of the main selling points for Ponyta (BST in general). Speed 19 is very appreciated when Murkrow and Misdreavus are in every match and the fact that neither one of them resists its main STAB is very appealing (Murkrow being weak to Wild Charge is a bonus). Weakness to Stealth Rock and the fact that it gets crippled by the thing it's meant to counter (Stun Spore/Spore) or heavily damaged (AncientPower Lileep) is a drawback heavy enough to let it be out of A, in my opinion. However, I'm not opposed to see it in A as a very skillful player can let it shine regardless of its weaknesses.

    Stunky is, to me, a C. It has one use only: kill Ghosts. I'm not sure if it can KO Misdreavus after a burn but I find Murkrow, Vullaby and opposing Misdreavus to be far better counters to Ghosts; the only other "common" ghost I can think of is Frillish who can also burn it missing the whole point of ghost-trapping (no good player will switch out on Stnuky, ever). Its only weakness is very exploitable in the meta and cannot stand a chance against many threats because it often carries Dark-moves only, meaning its Poison-type is not useful at all, not even to absorb Toxic Spikes because they are uncommon. C-rank IMO.
  2. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I seriously have said all that there is to say about ponyta in previous posts:
    Its fast
    Its strong
    It has awesome abilities that provide it many different niches that it can perform well
    It has a weakness in typing
    It's one of two viable fire types in the teir.
    B+

    Stunky was good in past meta where the ghosts were significantly more offensive. It could absorb the attacks of Ghastly and even drifloon, and punish them if they stayed in or if they switched out just with good prediction. And then missy was unbanned, Ghastly became bad, and most other ghosts fell out of favor. Like Good_Luck said, the only ghosts not named Misdreavus that you'll see on a serious team (that also actually pulls weight) are Drifloon and Frillish. Because of this, trapping and walling the ghosts just...got harder. All three commonly run will-o-wisp (with drifloon sometimes running destiny bond if not), which almost completely cripples it. Frillish also has decent bulk (which gets lulzy with eviolite) and access to recovery too. I'm 90% sure drif can outspeed and OHKO with Flying Acrobatics, and the other two often run eviolites which either forces skunky into using a LO or again, makes its job 80x harder. At the end of the day Stunky can still do its job in trapping ghosts fairly well and saying otherwise is just wrong, even its crunch retains a garunteed 2hko through a burn with full investment and a life orb, but rendering an entire slot on your team for *3* pokemon is beyond detrimental to your team in a teir where teamslots are the most precious form of currency.

    Stunky is good at its job, theirs no denying that, but with all the new and old threats facing it, I just personlly can't justify its use on a team. But to say its terrible isnt true either I feel its a solid C-B mon? don't really know. tbh havent used one since before the big 3 were unbanned
  3. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    You're either forgetting Larvesta or Houndour, not sure which.

    Yeah, I feel Stunky has not aged well with the times. In fact the moment Eviolite got introduced is where it spiraled downward in terms of effectiveness. Granted, Gastly and Abra couldn't use Eviolite well (not at all for Drifloon), but every other Ghost became that much harder to KO. Even Litwick can own its face with an Overheat. Stunky is also crippled by Will-o-wisp, whereas at least Houndour is immune to it, which usually matters more than the Fighting weakness.
  4. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I will never use houndour because its bad and half the things its supposed to counter can just work around it with good prediction. the one advantage over stunky is flash fire for willowisps. Which means you can switch into a predicted will-o-wisp, and hope to god its not HP fighting, or scald/surf/HydroPump, or ACrobatics, depending on the ghost you're switching into.
    Not being able to get burned means it can afford to run an eviolite a lot easier because it can't have its attack lowered, which is a +1 for sure, and hey, it can *kind* of deal with snover too, but it really loves its attack boost from Life Orb, else it misses out on the OHKO on misdreavus , and everything else it does is done better by ponyta (checking snover, for example), due to hitting a sexy 19 speed and having stronger attack stats. (hondour gets 1 extra SpA, but you never fully invest into it, so its a null point.)

    The only thing that makes larvesta viable, imo, is a fighting resist with flame body, and acess to U-turn. Its not much but backed by its decent stats and it is enough.

    TL;DR houndour isnt viable imo, i didnt forget anyone. Ponyta is *the* best fire type in the teir, and the only reason its not used more is *because* its fire type, and people like to see "its not very effective"
  5. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    honestly if you are using houndour to counter something, you are doing it wrong. houndour is a great pokemon at blowisg shit up because of fire blast being a monster backed by life orb and houndours stats.

    i know that has nothing to do with the topic at hand but hey i refuse to let meth say houndour sucks.
  6. macle

    macle ribbit
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    stunky c
    ponyta b

    live long and prosper


    Also ive been using both sandile and totodile for awhile. Sandile is an ok scarfed Pokemon. Totodile is good if you can get it set up. C for Totodile imo and Sandile is D-C rank poke. Still not sure
  7. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    This pretty much. I've used houndour to a lot of success in the past and it's not actually a bad check to a lot of stuff (especially when you're in against a misdreavus and win sucker punch sub mind games by using flame charge :>). And yeah, for the record, Magby is also viable with its 19 Speed and being able to break through walls like no-one's buisness thanks to cross chop letting it get through lileep and porygon.

    Sandile should probably be D rank. Just outclassed in everything it does really. Scraggy does moxie sweeping better and if you want a ground type sweeper, go for drilburr or sandshrew.
  8. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    Sandile has two things going poorly for it - not totally impressive offensive stats, and its typing. While, offensively, Ground / Dark is an awesome combination - its lack luster to say the least defensively - giving it weaknesses to fighting, water, grass, and ice, which are all fairly common (that is to say you will fight at least two of any combo of those STABS). Additionally, scraggy gives it a run for its money as a scarf/moxie sweeper.

    I Like totodile as a sweeper, and i totally think it would be b-a teir viable if it could sheer force, but because it cant i dont see it going past C either.
  9. Adtherens

    Adtherens

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    Where's Gastly? It's litterally the best pokemon. I vouch for it in either S rank or A rank. It's such a powerhouse with a scarf or specs.
  10. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I'd put Gastly in C tier if I'm honest. It's by no means bad but why use Gastly when Misdreavus is in the tier who has way better bulk and access to Nasty Plot? The only thing Gastly has going for it is a slightly more powerful STAB in Sludge Bomb but that's not enough to make it stand out significantly for me. C tier seems right.
  11. Adtherens

    Adtherens

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    Gastly is more powerful , and honestly , I suck at using Misdreavous . Further more , it can be a great revenge killer due to the fact that it can outspeed the entire boosted tier or even wallbreak with specs.
  12. Shouting

    Shouting

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    An infinitely better Sub+Pain Split set, Disable, Hypnosis , and a second STAB that lets it 2HKO Porygon, one of the most popular checks to Misdreavus and OHKO eviolite Murkrow after Stealth Rock.

    Sludge Bomb is a pretty big advantage, for example it can 2HKO Lileep on the switch. Misdreavus will never 2HKO Lileep without a boost.
  13. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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    Scarf is the only Choice set I'd consider with Gastly because of its pure power and speed to speedtie with ScarfKrow (and beat Bulky Misdreavus 1-on-1). Specs are awful in LC, btw.

    SubDisable is also good, and the second STAB argument from Shouting makes sense because it can defeat most Grass-types in the tier so things like Drilbur and Chinchou have an easier time.

    I think Gastly has enough traits to differentiate it from Misdreavus. Misdreavus outclasses it in almost every role so it has a smaller niche than before the unbanning. It can't spinblock as Staryu outspeeds and Mold Breaker Drilbur has SE STAB Earthquake. However, it can support its team easily and supress an opponent from the match with Trick, Hypnosis or its powerful dual stabs coupled with Hidden Power Fighting for good coverage.

    Nasty Plot Misdreavus is a better sweeper but Scarf Gastly is a better revenge killer. Eviolite Misdreavus is a better Bulky Attacker but SubNosis/SubDisable Gastly has a nice niche at defeating Timburr, Porygon and other usual Misdreavus checks. I would put it in B

    Sub+PainSplit isn't good, Gastly is not meant to be healing itself, it's meant to disrupt the opposing team through sheer power and the vast annoying movepool it has.
  14. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    Just want to make a quick note that Misdreauvus+Gastly is lethal.
  15. macle

    macle ribbit
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    i agree with goodluck on gastly being a b mon. I'd like a few more opinions on it though.

    (sandile is d, toto is c)
  16. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I also support Gastly for B rank. While laddering on LC I encountered Scarf Gastly several times and it was pretty threatening. The double ghost strategy is excellent in LC and with his power Gastly is great with Missy to tear up the tier. Albeit not one of the best pokemon, Gastly is still very good and deserves to be a B rank.
  17. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Since elekid isn't on the list, it deservs to be D-Rank. It has amazing coverage, but it has horrible defenses and cannot OHKO many pokemon thanks to the eviolite.
  18. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I support Elekid as well because it also has the added bonus of hitting 20 Spe, which allows him to clean up teams very effectively. Its defenses let it down but since only scarfers and priority con outspeed him, Elekid is worthy odds D rank.
  19. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    My question involving ghastly is that does it a) play a role similiar to sandshrew? where its literal only use is to be a second Drilbur (or in this case Missy)? and b) how well does it compete with Drifloon for the second offensive ghost on a double ghost strat. I havent touched ghastly since missy came out, but these are the two questions that would differentiate it self from the other mons who have so longed over shadowed it.

    I will stand by that Toto would be a b-a teir sweeper if only it got sheer force, but we're not theorymoning this thread so yeah c is fine with me.

    Elekids poor ranking was summed up with the Macargo's post. Its speed is wasted cause it cant get the O+2HKO's it needs to be a useful addition. As its big brother taught us - "its super effective" does not equal "_____ has fainted"
  20. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest GHOSTS
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    Elekid is definitely D material. It can clean weakened teams, but despite its amazing coverage it misses out on a lot of KO's. Its big brother Evire has been famous for this and even mocked.
  21. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Absolutely not, Gastly can be used by itself just fine. I've used it without Missy and it really pulls it weight. It ouspeeds really everything that it needs too, and anything it doesn't certainly can't switch in on it. It can potentially KO so many threats like Sub Roost Murkrow, and at worst 2HKO pretty much any wall you can think of (Foongus for example is 2HKO'd). Gastly is an incredible partner for Drilbur, Staryu and Chinchou because it walks all over Grass types.

    If you wanted to do double ghost, Gastly 100% better than Drifloon in that role. People use Drifloon as a flying type, not really as a ghost type - when I see Drifloon, I'm expecting Acrobatics spam, not shadow ball. Unless you want to use an old school Calm Mind Drifloon, you're really better off using Gastly. Stuff that Drifloon takes out, like Mienfoo, doesn't bother Misdreavus in the first place while Gastly can 2HKO Porygon.
  22. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    Elekid should be C or even B

    Elekid @ Life Orb
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 SAtk / 236 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Psychic
    - Volt Switch
    - Discharge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    This set does so much, helping to form a volturn core, getting perfect boltbeam coverage, and 2hkoing all mienfoo.
  23. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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    Then Sand Rush Drilbur comes in and Earthquakes you, or Mold Breaker Drilbur survives one hit and retaliates with a OHKO. Or Hippo survives an HP Ice and Earthquakes you. Or Any-variant-of-Murkrow Sucker Punches you for a clean OHKO. Or Chinchou comes in to wall you. Or Scraggy Dragon Dances the turn it survives then Drain Punches. Or Bronzor, or Ferroseed, or Lileep... Mienfoo Hi Jump Kicks you to oblivion the turn it survives, Bulky Misdreavus 2HKOes while you 3HKO. And I'm not counting the LO recoil (which, btw, takes 2HP each hit thanks to your IVs and investment).

    The fact is that even if it achieves BoltBeam coverage, the 'mons Elekid OHKOes are not used enough to warrant a B tier. Shellder, Vullaby and Omanyte are the B-tier 'mons who take enough damage to warrant its usage (and Shellder is the only one OHKOed everytime with THUNDERBOLT). LO recoil, SR damage, probably spikes damage... Elekid dies too quickly and can't do enough damage to the top threats in the tier.

    Volt Switch is the main selling point but Chinchou, Magnemite and even Scarf Electrike (the same Base SpA with higher speed, posibility to cripple walls with Switcheroo and better chances to switch in thanks to Lightningrod) are better Volt Turn spammers.

    Played cleverly, it can get some blood on a match but against a good player is just a wasted slot. It must stay wher it is, imo.

    Anyway, Discharge is redundant with 20 Speed and most scarfers will KO Elekid before the paralysis kicks in. Thunderbolt is better to get key OHKOs.
  24. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Im on phone now so i cant say much now but why is clamperl not on the list? Its a great mon until now and not much can wall after SS.It brutally dies to priority though somi thnk it warrants a B Rank.
  25. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    B rank seems fine and prankster users cripple it severely. Has decent bulk to set up but very predictable. But it works wonders if you remove its checks. (Sorry im also on my phone so its unorganized.)
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