Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[Gary]

Let's not forget that while MegaGarchomp won't take the role of a sweeper, it could become one of the best and sturdiest wallbreakers. Earthquake / Fire Blast / Iron Head (for fairies) / Surf or Dragon Claw or Outrage would be difficult as fuck to take two hits from. It will have a bigger Attack and SpA stat, and i don't see them increasing those stats for less than 20 points, so let's assume that it will have 150 Atk and 100 SpA. Also sand is up. Check those, admittedly scary calcs:

• 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon in sand: 225-265 (53.57 - 63.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon in sand: 166-196 (39.52 - 46.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 222-262 (67.88 - 80.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia in sand: 88-104 (19.81 - 23.42%), which actually becomes 40.6% - 46.8% if Cresselia becomes a Fairy-type
• 0 SpA Garchomp Surf vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 184-218 (48.29 - 57.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And note that i am assuming the smallest possible stat increases that it could get (i think, as MEvos have pretty big drawbacks so it would only seem logical to give them a drastic stat increase on specific stats, especially when lowering some others, in Garchomp's case its Speed) and 0 SpA EVs. MegaGarchomp could easily use more SpA EVs, enough to always 2HKO physically defensive Hippowdon with Surf, or even enough to maim it with Draco Meteor. Finally, it's going to be one of the sturdiest wallbreakers due to sand immunity, inability to be played around with LO recoil, SR resistance, T-Wave immunity, and good defenses, making it a nightmare for stall teams.

Let's just hope and PRAY that the Speed drop isn't that notable. I'm definitly not doubting that Mega Garchomp could potentially be a huge threat Alexwolf, but we HAVE to know the extent of the drop in Speed Garchomp will be getting. If it's anywhere from 101-90 in Speed, then it should be great. Anything below that, and Mega Chomp faces quite a bit of competition from its former self. I would MUCH rather use something that can outspeed a large portion of the metagame and still be powerful, over something that nukes shit but is forced out often. We have to keep in mind that Gen 6 could potentially be another power and speed creep, so the slower Pokemon will have more trouble as this generation arrives.

Please GF, don't fuck this monster!

 

[IcyMan28]

I reaaaaaaaaally want to see Psychic/Fairy Cresselia. It would be left with a mere 3 (uncommon) weaknesses, 2 immunities and a 4x resist to fighting, and obscene bulk to top it off. And with Fairy STAB, we might even see the resurgence of CM Cress. Calm Mind / Moon Blast / HP Fire / Moonlight under Drought would be ridiculous, and would pair extremely well with Heatran.

 

[Arash]

It will have a bigger Attack and SpA stat, and i don't see them increasing those stats for less than 20 points, so let's assume that it will have 150 Atk and 100 SpA.

Could also be seen as: It will have a smaller Speed, and i don't see them decreasing that stat for less than 20 points, so let's assume that it will have 82 speed. Congratulations, you are now outsped (and killed) by the likes of Haxorus, Genesect, Articuno, Kingdra, Suicune, Nidoking, Rotom-Freeze, Porygon-Z, Lucario, etc...

I think that this is the same comparison between Thundurus-I and Thundurus-T; the therian may be a good poke otherwise but the original is much better, to the point of ban-worthiness. And mega-garchomp won't even get to use an item!

 

[Stone RG]

Psychic/Fairy Cress is something over lugia levels of walling, no pursuit weakness means cbTar is no longer what we could call a counter, it isnt forced out by U-turn, arguably one of the top 3 moves in the game, and generally no common weaknesses (what is a CB BP coming off scizor doing to cress, 20-28%, dont quote me on that), i havent even mentioned what it can actually do, but rather what it gains from fairy typing. It would become the absolute wall in OU, hell, i could bet that thing would be banned faster than Darkrai or Skymin. Its sole miss point is in its lack of actually reliable recovery, but with this typing and bulk, even moonlight in sand would make a difference.

Overall, if GF is giving cress a fairy typing, that wouldnt help OU, but rather kill the sole niche lugia has in ubers, not to mention the first defensive pokemon (i consider deoxys D an offensive one) to be banned in a suspect.

 

[Seth Vilo]

This is just me thinking in between doing school assignments. Mega Garchomp, as we know, gets a reduction in Speed upon Mega Evolving. This gets me to thinking again on what the priority of Mega Evolution in a turn will be. Let's say Garchomp (base 102) is against Kyurem (base 95) and decides to Mega Evolve. For the sake of example, lets say Mega Garchomp is base 90 Speed. So, what happens? Let us list hypothetical situations I can think of:

• Mega Evolution takes place at a high bracket, and the rest of the turn goes according to the new stats of Mega Garchomp. Mega Garchomp is instakilled by Kyurem's Ice Beam now that it's slower.
• Mega Evolution takes place within your current, non-Mega'd bracket, meaning Mega Garchomp essentially has 102 Speed on its first turn, instakilling Kyurem with a now base 2,000 Attack Outrage.

Assuming the first, just cause that's what I predict it'll be, now let's consider switches. Assume Kyurem has decided it's Chomp food and switches out. Think the difference between Gen IV and Gen V's Focus Punch for you Breloom fans who know what I mean:

• Mega Evolution takes place at a higher bracket than switching. You now see it Mega Evolve and can switch appropriately. Bad for something like Ampharos who switches type, but good for the Kyurem player because they can easily revenge the now-slow (and 100% non-Scarved) MegaChomp.
• Mega Evolution takes place after the switch takes place. The Skarmory (or the Jigglypuff for that matter) the Kyurem-player switched in to tank what you thought was a Choiced Outrage now better be ready to eat a suped-up Fire Blast/Earthquake/Iron Head since MegaChomp is a prediction god.

This ordering thing is going to be a huge factor for Mega Evolutions, especially since they can't hold anything but their Stone. Whatever way it goes with when the evolution takes place in a turn, some Mega-Something benefits from it; Mega Garchomp would LOVE even one turn of being base 102, while Mega Mawile on the other hand desperately wants that priority evolution to buff its defenses before getting slapped (and retaliating on whatever walks in with a ridiculous, Huge Power-boosted Foul Play on anything not named Scrafty/Pangoro).

Man Gen VI is beautiful...

EDIT: Also, I need to re-read things before I post em.... I think I made 4 edits in a minute cause I word things weirdly...

 

[Schpoonman]

Metagross OHKOs 252/252+ Psychic/Fairy Cresselia after Rocks 43.75% the time with CB Meteor Mash, and Scizor's CB Bullet Punch does ~50%.

Also Foul Play is dependent on the opponent's attack, not your own. Even resisted, something popping MegaMawile in the face with Foul Play is what would suck.

 

[youngjake93]

Metagross OHKOs 252/252+ Psychic/Fairy Cresselia after Rocks 43.75% the time with CB Meteor Mash, and Scizor's CB Bullet Punch does ~50%.

Also Foul Play is dependent on the opponent's attack, not your own. Even resisted, something popping MegaMawile in the face with Foul Play is what would suck.

Mawile only has 85 attack. Because it is getting a large boost to defenses and Huge Power, the speculation is that its Attack will not go up by much. Huge Power boosts the strength of Foul Play even though it uses the opponent's stat, so you can use a base 95 power attack with double Metagross's attack stat against Meta for example.

The difference is 810 attack(Metagross) vs 590(Mawile). Also, Mawile could invest in defenses rather than attack if it is primarily using Foul Play.

This is why MegaMawile wants to use Foul play even though its attack stat would be higher than DeoA.

 

[Stone RG]

Metagross OHKOs 252/252+ Psychic/Fairy Cresselia after Rocks 43.75% the time with CB Meteor Mash, and Scizor's CB Bullet Punch does ~50%.

Also Foul Play is dependent on the opponent's attack, not your own. Even resisted, something popping MegaMawile in the face with Foul Play is what would suck.

Because youre gonna see so many cress switching or staying in on metagross, not to mention his very few pros have been shortened by the loss of Dark and Ghost neutralities, but thats besides the point, jirachi would be a better argument, and he also lost some niches, or SD scizor, thats the sole 2 offensive pokemon i can see breaking through a psychic/fairy cress. As a matter fact, a mono attacking CM cress could very much be considered the cro-cune of next gen, but im rambling too much on this topic.

 

[Seth Vilo]

And I quote:

So @V4 brought something to my attention on IRC

<&TheMantyke> whoa shit
<&TheMantyke> metagross gets raped by foul play now
<+Soothing_Green> Oh big time
<+Hozu> D:
<+Hozu> Fuck.
<&TheMantyke> it has good reason to be terrified of liepard of all things
<+Soothing_Green> Nah TM
<+Soothing_Green> Best Foul Play abuser Gen 6
<+Soothing_Green> will be Mega Mawile
<+Soothing_Green> Huge Power
<+Soothing_Green> will work on your opps attack stat
<&TheMantyke> oh, it does?
<+Soothing_Green> and destroy them with their own power
<+Soothing_Green> it does this gen
<+Hozu> Huge Power Foul Play = their attack + Huge Power boost.
<&TheMantyke> holy fucking shit
<&TheMantyke> do you have any documentation the ability works like that?
<&TheMantyke> or did you do it
<+Soothing_Green> TM its on the complete damage formula page
<&TheMantyke> oh shit

I just got REALLY excited to play around with MegaMawile.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

And I quote:

Oh wow. That will be gnarly.

 

[Schpoonman]

Because youre gonna see so many cress switching or staying in on metagross, not to mention his very few pros have been shortened by the loss of Dark and Ghost neutralities, but thats besides the point, jirachi would be a better argument, and he also lost some niches, or SD scizor, thats the sole 2 offensive pokemon i can see breaking through a psychic/fairy cress. As a matter fact, a mono attacking CM cress could very much be considered the cro-cune of next gen, but im rambling too much on this topic.

Dude, you're the one who said that Cress might get the boot if it got Fairy, I just refuted that by saying that no, Cress can still get OHKO'd. You didn't have to be so fucking hostile. As a matter of fact, I think that even with Metagross losing his Dark and Ghost neutralities, his ability to hit Fairies super effectively with STAB Meteor Mash will give him some more solid footing in Gen VI than he had in Gen V.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I think that this is the same comparison between Thundurus-I and Thundurus-T; the therian may be a good poke otherwise but the original is much better, to the point of ban-worthiness. And mega-garchomp won't even get to use an item!

I disagree. Thundurus-I does not outclass Thundurus-T in any way.

 

[FrostFire]

I disagree. Thundurus-I does not outclass Thundurus-T in any way.

Really? Thundurus-I, for me, pretty well outclasses Thundurus-T. Base 111 speed is just too good; the drop in speed in exchange for more special attack really isn't worth it. Thundurus-T is outsped by Terrakion, Keldeo, Lati@s and Garchomp, all of which the incarnate form can outspeed and potentially KO. Also, prankster T-wave is a pretty nice emergency option when you're about to get swept by a dragon dancing something. I suppose Thundy-T might do a better scarf set? Even then though, you just miss out on outspeeding Scarf chomp/ terrak/ keldeo/ latios.

Yeah, that 10 extra base speed is pretty crucial.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Really? Thundurus-I, for me, pretty well outclasses Thundurus-T. Base 111 speed is just too good; the drop in speed in exchange for more special attack really isn't worth it. Thundurus-T is outsped by Terrakion, Keldeo, Lati@s and Garchomp, all of which the incarnate form can outspeed and potentially KO. Also, prankster T-wave is a pretty nice emergency option when you're about to get swept by a dragon dancing something. I suppose Thundy-T might do a better scarf set? Even then though, you just miss out on outspeeding Scarf chomp/ terrak/ keldeo/ latios.

Yeah, that 10 extra base speed is pretty crucial.

But, he is a lot more dangerous when running double dances, has volt absorb to stop thunder waves and volt switches, thanks to it he resists/ is immune to voltturn, which is pretty fucking huge in my opinion, and I'm pretty sure the extra sp.atk nets him some extra ko's. they both have different roles, and as a result can not outclass/ be outclassed by each other. Honestly, you are stupid if y don't use choice, lo, or double dances on the Therian forme.

 

[Stone RG]

Dude, you're the one who said that Cress might get the boot if it got Fairy, I just refuted that by saying that no, Cress can still get OHKO'd. You didn't have to be so fucking hostile. As a matter of fact, I think that even with Metagross losing his Dark and Ghost neutralities, his ability to hit Fairies super effectively with STAB Meteor Mash will give him some more solid footing in Gen VI than he had in Gen V.

Sorry if i was being hostile, it wasnt my intention, really, but i just think that getting an Overpowered defensive pokemon isnt the way of deviating our meta to the desirable balance we want it to be, again, sorry, i guess im too used to being sardonic.

 

[G-Von]

Idk if anyone has mentioned this but pokemon like Spiritomb and, more importantly, Sableye no longer have the niche of having no natural weaknesses since Fairy is super-effective to Dark. Is there a new type combination that would result in having no weaknesses?

 

[lordkira]

Personally, a way to make garchomp even better is to have dragon dance or agility.
Assuming the power creep isn't too big, DDGarchomp and someting like Double-Dance Garchomp would be amazing.
I'm also making the assumption that GF will not present Garchomp with a +2attack+2Speed move to troll us.

 

[FrostFire]

But, he is a lot more dangerous when running double dances, has volt absorb to stop thunder waves and volt switches, thanks to it he resists/ is immune to voltturn, which is pretty fucking huge in my opinion, and I'm pretty sure the extra sp.atk nets him some extra ko's. they both have different roles, and as a result can not outclass/ be outclassed by each other. Honestly, you are stupid if y don't use choice, lo, or double dances on the Therian forme.

Except double dance restricts you to two-move coverage (i.e. you will be walled by something), and even though he resists volt-turn, thundy-t's defenses are low. He takes a lot from Scizor's U-turn, resistance or not (especially if SR is in play). Also, Rotom-W (the most common volt switch user) is more than capable of using Hydro Pump and knocking a ton of health off thundy-t. Thundurus-t really doesn't do well at taking Volt-turn at all, mainly because of it's generally low defenses.

Also, the power difference doesn't really give it any notable extra KO's that I can think of, off the top of my head.

Thundurus-I is generally better than Thundurus-T (it IS Uber after all), and it certainly does Nasty Plot/ set up sweep better. It does Life Orb sets better too. Also, I said that thundy-t could maybe run choice better than thund-I, just with the proviso that losing the natural speed could be an issue.

I'm not saying Thundurus-T is bad (Read: it's pretty decent actually), just that it's not quite as good as an UBER :/

 

[Seth Vilo]

Idk if anyone has mentioned this but pokemon like Spiritomb and, more importantly, Sableye no longer have the niche of having no natural weaknesses since Fairy is super-effective to Dark. Is there a new type combination that would result in having no weaknesses?

From what I read of others, and very briefly attempted to discover myself with the new chart (I emphasize briefly), the only way now for something to have no weaknesses is through abilities, like Eelektross. Someone correct me if I missed one, but I think they've made the idea of WonderTomb/Eye now obsolete with the new changes.

 

[Schpoonman]

She won't be that OP. Gengar hits her super-effectively for a 2HKO if she's physically invested, Scizor and Metagross can OHKO if she IS, Jirachi can always use the same paraflinch shenanigans it always has. Even if Cress is in the sun, Venusaur now crushes it with SE Sludge Bomb.

 

[termi]

So essentially it would mean that Cresselia isn't OP in OU and could therefor stick around.

Like I said before, it'd be the one thing OU stall needs. Therefor, there's a snowball's chance in hell that Game Freak's gonna do it.

 

[Arash]

lol i don't think gamefreak lurks on the smogon board to decide what to type certain pokemon....

if that were the case, we would have probably seen fairy type last gen, along with changed SR mechanics and a different ability for rotom-fan

 

[Monte Cristo]

I'm going to take a guess and say the per generation pixies (mew, celebi, jirachi, emotion trio (azelf and co.) and victini) will get a fairy type added or get a type replaced for fairy type, because their the most fairy like shit I've seen in a while and they just deserve it imo, what would be better is if they had mega evos with fairy typings which had like 110 or 105 all around spread, 105 speed would really help victini, especially with fairy type to KO dragons without resorting to glaciate

 

[ogasian]

I'm going to take a guess and say the per generation pixies (mew, celebi, jirachi, emotion trio (azelf and co.) and victini) will get a fairy type added or get a type replaced for fairy type, because their the most fairy like shit I've seen in a while and they just deserve it imo, what would be better is if they had mega evos with fairy typings which had like 110 or 105 all around spread, 105 speed would really help victini, especially with fairy type to KO dragons without resorting to glaciate

Fairy Celebi and Fairy Jirachi are going to be defensive monsters. Fairy Victini is pretty decent, though I will mis its ability to switch into Loom after Sleep Clause has activated.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Fairy Celebi and Fairy Jirachi are going to be defensive monsters. Fairy Victini is pretty decent, though I will mis its ability to switch into Loom after Sleep Clause has activated.

Yeah, I really love fairy celebi, it has nasty pass like usual so it still has a niche as the only grass type with NP, I still love the fan artwork for mega celebi, I don't think they aimed for it to be a mega celebi, but those pieces of fan art are rlly good