Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[OldAmberPlays]

Little nitpick, Heatran never runs flamethrower. It'll either be magma, fire miss, or plume. But yeah the sucker nerf actually does come into play in the case of garchomp and heatran. What used to be solid rolls for +2 sucker OHKOs become very shaky rolls.

Ash ninja, zygod, and zapdos I wouldn't even call shaky checks.
For the zygarde calcs, either mmaw is at +2 or zygarde is at +1, there's no scenario in which both are true. And anyway, 0 atk zygarde can't KO maw, while maw will use play rough, not sucker, for the OHKO.
Ash ninja needs hydro to KO maw, and +2 sucker will kill it anyway with just a bit of chip.
Physdef zapdos is OHKO'd by +2 play rough.

There are plenty of things in OU that can outspeed and hit Maw for SE damage, which is why you don't stay in on these things in the early game, but if Maw saves it's SD and sucker spree for the late game when everything has some chip on it, as it should do, all of this is irrelevant anyway. Anything it wants to +2 sucker will have some chip, and anything it doesn't want to dies to +2 play rough, fire fang, or tpunch.

Yeah, I know that Heatran runs Lava Plume, but I used the Flamethrower for the better chance to OHKO Mawile.

And yeah, Zygarde dies to +2 Play Rough, but if it was Band or Life Orb Jolly, it can OHKO Mawile 100% of the time, while tanking a +2 SP

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 244-288 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zapdos, while die to +2 Play Rough, can win the mind game with SP if the opponent want Mawile healthy as possible

Band Terrakion and Band Tyranitar can both outspeed Mawile and OHKO it with Earthquake or Close Combat with some prior damage

After all, Mawile IS more manusable now

Using the same EVs that was used in the analysis:

More Calcs

------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Garchomp: 298-351 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

248 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 270-320 (102.2 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 253-298 (95.8 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 280-330 (106 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 274-323 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Heatran Flamethrower vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 254-302 (96.2 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 200-235 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 238-282 (90.1 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 229-273 (86.7 - 103.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 174-210 (65.9 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO*

*In this case, Mawile cannot Sucker Punch you
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 244-288 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 265-315 (100.3 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 172-203 (45 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 246-290 (93.1 - 109.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It will die to Rocky Helmet anyway
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 232-274 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 172-204 (65.1 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You can do mind games with Sucker Punch here
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 157-185 (48.4 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 241-285 (91.2 - 107.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 304-358 (115.1 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 224-266 (84.8 - 100.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock*

If you don't want to have the chance to fail, Screech turn 1 and go EQ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 165-194 (58.7 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega in Electric Terrain: 242-286 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The atual metagame has a lot of Dark resistances in Koko, Keldeo, Tyranitar, Terrakion and Greninja (ninja MUST be healthy) and a lot more threads faster than Maw that can OHKO it. Sorry if I was redundant.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

The OU metagame right now is trash in my opinion.Every team looks fcking same to me and this is one of the most centralized metas ever.We have pheromosa,greninja,gross and lando on every offensive team and they make their way onto quite a few amount of balance and BO teams as well.Then
we have toxapex and ferrothorn on every non HO team and 1-2 tapus on every team as well.The only other mons that are even remotely common are
zygarde,magearna,tangrowth and scizor.Idk how we can solve this problem but there are too many offensive threats to cover.I say we should start by suspecting

greninja/phero/gross cuz they are the main problem,especially greninja whose answers completely differ between its 2 forms and mosa which has too many sets which have different counters.​

It can feel frustrating, yes. However, this is the result of the power creep that comes with each gen - as well as the new identity that Gen 7 has given the series in general. Hell, we're seeing this with Mega Mawile this gen, this second - a mon so dominating last gen due to it's raw power... and then can't quite gain the throne back due to new threats, Z moves and the SP nerf.

You're right, this is why we have suspects... and that's the thing - the meta is still young (believe it or not), and it's going to kinda suck for some people that it's still unstable. Remember back in XY when we had to manually suspect Deo D/S and Mega Lucario? It happens. Some are going to have a more dominating nature over the metagame then others, and creativity is more then likely going to end up a secondary element when we're still trying to find our feet. I feel the latter part first hand BELIEVE ME!

 

[tenkai]

The OU metagame right now is trash in my opinion.Every team looks fcking same to me and this is one of the most centralized metas ever.We have pheromosa,greninja,gross and lando on every offensive team and they make their way onto quite a few amount of balance and BO teams as well.Then
we have toxapex and ferrothorn on every non HO team and 1-2 tapus on every team as well.The only other mons that are even remotely common are
zygarde,magearna,tangrowth and scizor.Idk how we can solve this problem but there are too many offensive threats to cover.I say we should start by suspecting

greninja/phero/gross cuz they are the main problem,especially greninja whose answers completely differ between its 2 forms and mosa which has too many sets which have different counters.​

Ok... you realize that there are literally always going to be top threats in any metagame, right?

Like thats not a new thing to SM. Idk if you've played any past metas, but there are ALWAYS top meta threats. Thats kind of how competitive games work, man. You wanna talk about centralization? Go back to GSC, where things literally revolved around snorlax, or DPP, where not seeing a ttar on a team was a surprise. Hell, if you wanna go WAY back, look at RBY, where every team basically had the same three pokemon and then very specific team slots to be filled (a ground type, a sleeper, etc.). There are even more recent examples, such as ORAS/SM Ubers (Primal Groudon). Say things look the same if you want, but to say this is one of the most centralized metas ever is kind of offensively wrong.

Now if you think this meta is too centralized by these threats, somehow, thats one thing, but it gets extremely annoying to see people keep saying "things are centralized because people only use the top threats zomg!!1!!" when if we suspect and ban those threats, new ones will just rise up and become that same level of centralization. Expecting people to just NOT USE the best pokemon in the meta is honestly ridiculous and its an annoying sentiment to keep seeing thrown around. Obviously I'm not saying some things don't deserve to be suspected, because theres probably a few things that could be looked into, and maybe some of that will increase team diversity (more megas will be used more often if gross was banned, for example) but at no point are people going to stop using the best things they can because, you know, thats how you win games.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Maybe Mega Metagross or Greninja should be brought up for a suspect test due to their overcentralization in the meta and Greninja's unpredictability now that it has another form

 

[david0895]

The OU metagame right now is trash in my opinion.Every team looks fcking same to me and this is one of the most centralized metas ever.We have pheromosa,greninja,gross and lando on every offensive team and they make their way onto quite a few amount of balance and BO teams as well.Then
we have toxapex and ferrothorn on every non HO team and 1-2 tapus on every team as well.The only other mons that are even remotely common are
zygarde,magearna,tangrowth and scizor.Idk how we can solve this problem but there are too many offensive threats to cover.I say we should start by suspecting

greninja/phero/gross cuz they are the main problem,especially greninja whose answers completely differ between its 2 forms and mosa which has too many sets which have different counters.​

There will always be top threats or something used more than other.
Like Primal Groudon or Landorus-T.

Another thing is that some of them are very difficult to handle.
For example Pheromosa is countered only by ghost and poison types, and even in that case, there's U-turn.
Greninja scares almost all the tier, and I'm not counting the Ash-Greninja version...

 

[sand1234]

Ok... you realize that there are literally always going to be top threats in any metagame, right?

Like thats not a new thing to SM. Idk if you've played any past metas, but there are ALWAYS top meta threats. Thats kind of how competitive games work, man. You wanna talk about centralization? Go back to GSC, where things literally revolved around snorlax, or DPP, where not seeing a ttar on a team was a surprise. Hell, if you wanna go WAY back, look at RBY, where every team basically had the same three pokemon and then very specific team slots to be filled (a ground type, a sleeper, etc.). There are even more recent examples, such as ORAS/SM Ubers (Primal Groudon). Say things look the same if you want, but to say this is one of the most centralized metas ever is kind of offensively wrong.

Now if you think this meta is too centralized by these threats, somehow, thats one thing, but it gets extremely annoying to see people keep saying "things are centralized because people only use the top threats zomg!!1!!" when if we suspect and ban those threats, new ones will just rise up and become that same level of centralization. Expecting people to just NOT USE the best pokemon in the meta is honestly ridiculous and its an annoying sentiment to keep seeing thrown around. Obviously I'm not saying some things don't deserve to be suspected, because theres probably a few things that could be looked into, and maybe some of that will increase team diversity (more megas will be used more often if gross was banned, for example) but at no point are people going to stop using the best things they can because, you know, thats how you win games.

Comparing SM OU to RBY and GSC is ridiculous cuz there are way more mons now compared to then and mechanics were way different then.Compare this meta to more recent metas like XY,ORAS or BW where there is a lot more diversity in teams(This is probably due to more available megas in ORAS/XY).I'm not saying people should not use top threats or anything but there are 4 mons in A+ rank compared to 10 mons at the end of ORAS.This is clear indication of a centralized meta.

 

[Lady Alex]

Ok... you realize that there are literally always going to be top threats in any metagame, right?

Like thats not a new thing to SM. Idk if you've played any past metas, but there are ALWAYS top meta threats. Thats kind of how competitive games work, man. You wanna talk about centralization? Go back to GSC, where things literally revolved around snorlax, or DPP, where not seeing a ttar on a team was a surprise. Hell, if you wanna go WAY back, look at RBY, where every team basically had the same three pokemon and then very specific team slots to be filled (a ground type, a sleeper, etc.). There are even more recent examples, such as ORAS/SM Ubers (Primal Groudon). Say things look the same if you want, but to say this is one of the most centralized metas ever is kind of offensively wrong.

Now if you think this meta is too centralized by these threats, somehow, thats one thing, but it gets extremely annoying to see people keep saying "things are centralized because people only use the top threats zomg!!1!!" when if we suspect and ban those threats, new ones will just rise up and become that same level of centralization. Expecting people to just NOT USE the best pokemon in the meta is honestly ridiculous and its an annoying sentiment to keep seeing thrown around. Obviously I'm not saying some things don't deserve to be suspected, because theres probably a few things that could be looked into, and maybe some of that will increase team diversity (more megas will be used more often if gross was banned, for example) but at no point are people going to stop using the best things they can because, you know, thats how you win games.

No one's denying that there will always be top threats, but when you have something like mega-metagross in the tier for as long as we've had it, even though it has a zero percent chance of surviving a suspect test and might as well be quickbanned, I don't think his complaint is illegitimate. Hopefully at some point the OU council will decide to actually be actively involved with the tier.

 

[gorgie]

Ok... you realize that there are literally always going to be top threats in any metagame, right?

Like thats not a new thing to SM. Idk if you've played any past metas, but there are ALWAYS top meta threats. Thats kind of how competitive games work, man. You wanna talk about centralization? Go back to GSC, where things literally revolved around snorlax, or DPP, where not seeing a ttar on a team was a surprise. Hell, if you wanna go WAY back, look at RBY, where every team basically had the same three pokemon and then very specific team slots to be filled (a ground type, a sleeper, etc.). There are even more recent examples, such as ORAS/SM Ubers (Primal Groudon). Say things look the same if you want, but to say this is one of the most centralized metas ever is kind of offensively wrong.

Now if you think this meta is too centralized by these threats, somehow, thats one thing, but it gets extremely annoying to see people keep saying "things are centralized because people only use the top threats zomg!!1!!" when if we suspect and ban those threats, new ones will just rise up and become that same level of centralization. Expecting people to just NOT USE the best pokemon in the meta is honestly ridiculous and its an annoying sentiment to keep seeing thrown around. Obviously I'm not saying some things don't deserve to be suspected, because theres probably a few things that could be looked into, and maybe some of that will increase team diversity (more megas will be used more often if gross was banned, for example) but at no point are people going to stop using the best things they can because, you know, thats how you win games.

you should post more in policy discussion/competitive metagame threads (suspect threads etc) more if you don't already.

your outlook and perspective is refreshingly full of sensibility and it would be amazing to see your thoughts contagiously effect more people on a conscious level.

also re: Lady Alex's post, I read tenkai's post in a tone where he wasn't necessarily undermining the idea of certain top mons being overcentralizing right now, but more addressing sandnumbers general attitude towards the game on a whole as displayed in the post in reference

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

you should post more in policy discussion/competitive metagame threads (suspect threads etc) more if you don't already.

That reminds me... considering us public players aren't allowed to contribute to the 'Policy Review' threads - is there not somewhere those not part of the council can set up something similar? Just curious.

has a zero percent chance of surviving a suspect test and might as well be quickbanned

I wonder if quickbans this late in are even possible...

 

[tenkai]

Comparing SM OU to RBY and GSC is ridiculous cuz there are way more mons now compared to then and mechanics were way different then.Compare this meta to more recent metas like XY,ORAS or BW where there is a lot more diversity in teams(This is probably due to more available megas in ORAS/XY).I'm not saying people should not use top threats or anything but there are 4 mons in A+ rank compared to 10 mons at the end of ORAS.This is clear indication of a centralized meta.

You're not actually reading what I wrote. I'm comparing the metas in a sense where I'm not saying we should run our suspects and viability in the same way, thats ridiculous as you've said. I'm comparing the metas because in the post I originally quoted, the poster stated that SM OU is "one of the most centralized metas ever", which is just blatantly untrue. If you want a more recent example, any OU meta where Aegislash has been allowed is an example of actual centralization.

Also @ lady alex: yeah I'm not at all saying that OU doesn't currently have suspect worthy pokemon. what I'm saying is this ban happy, 'if its hard to beat its obvi broken' mentality is annoying and i keep seeing it everywhere. basically im not saying gross isnt suspect worthy, im saying banning gross and whatever else people want to ban won't make people stop using the best pokemon the most

 

[BenTheDemon]

The Evasion clause really needs to be reinstated.
I just lost a match I had in the bag because a Garchomp was on a sand team with Sand Veil, Brightpowder, and Z-Sandstorm, which gave it 1.5x Speed.

 

[RedzoneX]

The Evasion clause really needs to be reinstated.
I just lost a match I had in the bag because a Garchomp was on a sand team with Sand Veil, Brightpowder, and Z-Sandstorm, which gave it 1.5x Speed.

I think it would be rather difficult for Garchomp to hold a Brightpowder and a Rockium-Z at the same time.

So that this isn't just a one-line meme, how are people constructing their HO builds in the current meta? I've seen examples built around flyingspam cores (Pinsir + a Z-Fly user), as well as teams with Tapu Lele and fast, non-priority threats (a la Vertex's double QD team), but Pheromosa and Ash-Greninja seem like tough threats to check for true hyper offense, and I'm interested to hear if and how popular teams are handling them.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I think it would be rather difficult for Garchomp to hold a Brightpowder and a Rockium-Z at the same time.

So that this isn't just a one-line meme, how are people constructing their HO builds in the current meta? I've seen examples built around flyingspam cores (Pinsir + a Z-Fly user), as well as teams with Tapu Lele and fast, non-priority threats (a la Vertex's double QD team), but Pheromosa and Ash-Greninja seem like tough threats to check for true hyper offense, and I'm interested to hear if and how popular teams are handling them.

Yea. I just realized that. (Pardon my brain fart.) But Sand Veil was still there. It was mentioned that it was allowed to stack with Brightpowder. Either way, that was a miss that cost me a game that had zero reason to be there. I understand choosing to run Hydro Pump yourself, as you choose to trade accuracy for more power, but evasion is a no-skill tactic that adds an unnecessary dice roll to the game, and I'm sure there are plenty like me that got screwed over by something that shouldn't be there.

 

[Night Train Lane]

So that this isn't just a one-line meme, how are people constructing their HO builds in the current meta? I've seen examples built around flyingspam cores (Pinsir + a Z-Fly user), as well as teams with Tapu Lele and fast, non-priority threats (a la Vertex's double QD team), but Pheromosa and Ash-Greninja seem like tough threats to check for true hyper offense, and I'm interested to hear if and how popular teams are handling them.

Most successful HO teams I've seen consist of..

• Webs (smeargle) + Ghost (Mimikyu/Gengar) + Bisharp.

Smeargle is the most consistent webs setter since it has access to spore. It also gets Magic Coat and is able to Taunt Fini. The ghost type is used as an emergency check to Pheromosa since it destroys HO. Ghost resists also don't exist in this meta outside of Greninja (which doesn't take it well) or Muk (which is bad). They also act as soon blockers vs Mosa. Bisharp is a staple on webs, being able to make people think twice about Defogging. It also very under prepped for since Steel/Dark STAB combination is very good. zSucker Punch is pretty cool too.

• Sash Excadrill + Sash Hoopa + Sash Pheromosa w/ additional filler.

The team is pretty straightforward
lead Excadrill click rocks and win. Sash hoopa can pretty much always garuntee a kill. Pheromosa is broken so just click buttons with that and you'll eventually win.

Thing to note:
mPinsir benefits so much from the HO playstyle, being able to offensively scare mosa out and get a potentially free SD. (Pinsir is very under prepped for rn.)You mentioned this earlier but DD Gyara and Autoto Celes are extremely good on HO because they can stomach and set up on Greninja and have a VERY high snowball potential.
I also feel that Azelf lead is bad rn because of the prevalence of Greninja. Being able to lead off with a free dark pulse to fish for a flinch. Which either A.) Denies rocks. or B.) Forces Azelf to stay in and die giving a free ash form or switch and let a pokemon take a specs dark pulse for no downside for the Greninja player.

 

[matthewc20090]

ok so i just came back from joey's video about greninja and i thought it was worth posting that female greninjas are always protean since ash greninja is male-locked.

this is pretty useful knowledge and something i wouldn't think about otherwise.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

ok so i just came back from joey's video about greninja and i thought it was worth posting that female greninjas are always protean since ash greninja is male-locked.

this is pretty useful knowledge and something i wouldn't think about otherwise.

This is big, as the unpredictability factor may drop once people realize that now, but if it's male then it's still a 50/50

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Just means that if you're using Greninja, you make it male to not give away whether it's Ash or Protean.

 

[TPP]

So in teambuilder, Ash Ninja will only have Male as a gender, but regular Greninja can be female with Battle Bond and it will still be "Valid for OU." I tested it out with a friend in the replay below and it worked. I'm pretty sure it's a glitch as Battle Bond should be male locked, so hopefully PS will have it fixed asap.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-551059795

 

[Toshiro46]

Also worthy to note that Ash-Gren can't be shiny, so if you see a shiny greninja it's definitely protean.

 

[Subject 18]

Don't discuss unbanning Kyogre. This isn't the place.

 

[Midorimemes]

I also feel that Azelf lead is bad rn because of the prevalence of Greninja. Being able to lead off with a free dark pulse to fish for a flinch. Which either A.) Denies rocks. or B.) Forces Azelf to stay in and die giving a free ash form or switch and let a pokemon take a specs dark pulse for no downside for the Greninja player.

I've been using a variant of Bird-spam extensively on the ladder, and consequently been using Azelf. From experience, I can say that the most common strategy is to pick it off with 2 fast u-turns to limit it to one move (rocks or explosion). They try to activate Battle Bond on a U-Turn, so they don't necessarily have to lose momentum. That being said, the best use for Azelf on a Bird-Spam team in this meta is to explode turn 1.

Counter leads are typically Greninja, Koko, and Pheromosa. Best case scenario, one of them hits you to your sash and they switch to another one to finish you off. They get exploded and now it's a 5v5. However, eliminating a fast threat is quite helpful for Birdspam HO since it has limited speed control.

That being said, there are probably more efficient suicide leads since Azelf is barely effective in setting up rocks anymore. I've considered Sash Garchomp (with Draco) as an alternate since it can also nuke turn 1 and possibly do more on offense afterwards. Any thoughts on Azelf alternates?

 

[zeezrom]

Don't discuss unbanning Kyogre. This isn't the place.

Sorry for posting irrelevant material. If it isn't too much trouble, could you refer me to a forum where my petition would be more appropriate?

 

[Gary]

Sorry for posting irrelevant material. If it isn't too much trouble, could you refer me to a forum where my petition would be more appropriate?

Nowhere on the OU forums is there a place to discuss dropping a Pokemon as insane as Kyogre, and anyone who has any sort of knowledge on the meta would know this. If you truly want to "petition" something like this, you PM a council member and they could potentially give you some insight. I really don't recommend it though, because it's Kyogre lol.

 

[LeNorm]

So, I know this is controversial, and probably above my level to bring it up, so to speak, but I was wondering if there are any plans on suspect testing Pheromosa?

While Phero clearly has a few checks, has a quite limited move pool, and teams have found ways to deal with it, it seems to me that its speed puts too much pressure on team building. I, at least, feel that I need at least one scarfed mon that outspeeds Phero (Jolly, fully invested, Landorus-T or faster), or one that has really strong priority, normally Ash-Greninja or Mega-Pinsir, or perhaps bullet punch Mega-Metagross, though the are not quite as consistent checks as scarfed mons are (Ash Greninja needs to be in Ash Form to guarantee a OHKO and is itself OHKO'd in return, and Mega-Pinsir means you cannot run mega-metagross).

Which brings me to the second problem I think Phero brings to the meta right now: It greatly lessens the viability of a couple of megas that Phero clearly dominates, giving yet another reason to run Mega-Metagross. The most notable trio are Mega-Gyarados, Mega-Zam, and Mega-Beedrill. M-Gyarados cannot outspeed Phero at +1, and Phero OHKOs Mega-Gyarados with High Jump Kick or Focus Blast; so even if Mega-Gyarados gets a chance to set up a D-Dance, it cannot do so and mega evolve, without being OHKO'd, instead it has to stay in 'regular' Gyarados form, basically until Phero is knocked out, or it gets two D-Dances up, which means one might as well run Flyium-Z Moxie Gyara instead (not always, but typically). Mega-Zam also cannot do much unless Phero is KO'd, as Phero outspeeds and OHKOs with its Bug type STABS, so is essentially useless until Phero is gone; added to this is the fact that most scarfers also outspeed Mega-Zam, and I think this is at least in part because most teams want a mon that can deal with Phero. I'm not sure if getting rid of Phero will lead to a rise in Mega-Beedrill, but at least it would give Mega-Beedrill a niche - though this is hardly a big reason to suspect Phero. I just wonder if the meta would be more amenable to these alternative megas if Phero were not in it, which would lessen the dominance of Metagross and Scizor (which is quite common these days mostly because it checks Metagross), and perhaps Mawile too.

Aside from my lack of authority, the reason I'd be for a suspect test but would certainly not want a quick ban is that the Meta quite now is actually quite enjoyable because it is quite offensive (for instance, I enjoy using and playing against the offensive Landorus-T's than the Rocky Helmet version, and ORAS was not so fun with CM+Magic Guard Clefable being the top threat!). The main thing I would be interested in seeing whether other megas became more viable if Phero was not in the Meta, and whether team building would become more flexible and creative. So, my point is not that Phero is overly good for the tier and will singlehandedly win matches (which I don't think it is or does), but that it might put too many demands on team building in terms of speed control, and perhaps choice in megas.

That said, I'm clearly not authoritative enough to say that Phero should be suspected, and would simply be happy with the question being addressed as to why it hasn't been so far and the above arguments are flawed, or if the above is simply not enough to justify a test. And I'm sorry if this has been thoroughly brought up before, I couldn't see anything too coherent about Phero here (or anything raising these team building issues), but you never know.

Thanks for your time and opinions!

 

[Expert_Occultist]

So, I know this is controversial, and probably above my level to bring it up, so to speak, but I was wondering if there are any plans on suspect testing Pheromosa?

While Phero clearly has a few checks, has a quite limited move pool, and teams have found ways to deal with it, it seems to me that its speed puts too much pressure on team building. I, at least, feel that I need at least one scarfed mon that outspeeds Phero (Jolly, fully invested, Landorus-T or faster), or one that has really strong priority, normally Ash-Greninja or Mega-Pinsir, or perhaps bullet punch Mega-Metagross, though the are not quite as consistent checks as scarfed mons are (Ash Greninja needs to be in Ash Form to guarantee a OHKO and is itself OHKO'd in return, and Mega-Pinsir means you cannot run mega-metagross).

Which brings me to the second problem I think Phero brings to the meta right now: It greatly lessens the viability of a couple of megas that Phero clearly dominates, giving yet another reason to run Mega-Metagross. The most notable trio are Mega-Gyarados, Mega-Zam, and Mega-Beedrill. M-Gyarados cannot outspeed Phero at +1, and Phero OHKOs Mega-Gyarados with High Jump Kick or Focus Blast; so even if Mega-Gyarados gets a chance to set up a D-Dance, it cannot do so and mega evolve, without being OHKO'd, instead it has to stay in 'regular' Gyarados form, basically until Phero is knocked out, or it gets two D-Dances up, which means one might as well run Flyium-Z Moxie Gyara instead (not always, but typically). Mega-Zam also cannot do much unless Phero is KO'd, as Phero outspeeds and OHKOs with its Bug type STABS, so is essentially useless until Phero is gone; added to this is the fact that most scarfers also outspeed Mega-Zam, and I think this is at least in part because most teams want a mon that can deal with Phero. I'm not sure if getting rid of Phero will lead to a rise in Mega-Beedrill, but at least it would give Mega-Beedrill a niche - though this is hardly a big reason to suspect Phero. I just wonder if the meta would be more amenable to these alternative megas if Phero were not in it, which would lessen the dominance of Metagross and Scizor (which is quite common these days mostly because it checks Metagross), and perhaps Mawile too.

Aside from my lack of authority, the reason I'd be for a suspect test but would certainly not want a quick ban is that the Meta quite now is actually quite enjoyable because it is quite offensive (for instance, I enjoy using and playing against the offensive Landorus-T's than the Rocky Helmet version, and ORAS was not so fun with CM+Magic Guard Clefable being the top threat!). The main thing I would be interested in seeing whether other megas became more viable if Phero was not in the Meta, and whether team building would become more flexible and creative. So, my point is not that Phero is overly good for the tier and will singlehandedly win matches (which I don't think it is or does), but that it might put too many demands on team building in terms of speed control, and perhaps choice in megas.

That said, I'm clearly not authoritative enough to say that Phero should be suspected, and would simply be happy with the question being addressed as to why it hasn't been so far and the above arguments are flawed, or if the above is simply not enough to justify a test. And I'm sorry if this has been thoroughly brought up before, I couldn't see anything too coherent about Phero here (or anything raising these team building issues), but you never know.

Thanks for your time and opinions!

I think it's worth mentioning that Phero isn't the only reason why scarfers are so popular. Volcarona, Gyarados, and other Dragon Dancers/set up sweepers make scarfers great in the current meta as well.