Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Frozocrone]

Has anyone found good Z-moves to build around? Or to use in general?

Also Mimikyu is decent. There is probably a better way to use him than Disguise and Destiny Bond though

 

[Funbot28]

Genuine question: will Kangaskhanite be looked at?

Ya I agree, Sucker Punch nerf + Parental Bond nerf really males me believe that it has a shot to come back to OU. If Mega Mawile can come back, then Mega Kanga should at least get a chance as well.

 

[Josh]

Seismic toss still comfortably 2hkos almost every single non ghost lol

 

[EnemyJurist]

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch / Hidden Power Ice
- Dazzling Gleam / Hidden Power Ice
- U-turn

This is a set I thought up while laddering yesterday to lure Dugtrio. If they come in to trap you with a sash intact, you can U-turn into a ground counter and break Duggy's sash. It also works versus other mons that have an electric immunity like Alolan Marowak and grabs you momentum.

The other moves are pretty customizable, like others have mentioned, and things like Grass Knot or even Nature's Madness can be run. I haven't tested Life Orb 3 Attacks+Roost yet, but I imagine it might work similarly to Charizard-Y with a field effect, decent defensive typing, decent bulk, and good speed.

 

[Kejmur]

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch / Hidden Power Ice
- Dazzling Gleam / Hidden Power Ice
- U-turn

This is a set I thought up while laddering yesterday to lure Dugtrio. If they come in to trap you with a sash intact, you can U-turn into a ground counter and break Duggy's sash. It also works versus other mons that have an electric immunity like Alolan Marowak and grabs you momentum.

The other moves are pretty customizable, like others have mentioned, and things like Grass Knot or even Nature's Madness can be run. I haven't tested Life Orb 3 Attacks+Roost yet, but I imagine it might work similarly to Charizard-Y with a field effect, decent defensive typing, decent bulk, and good speed.

Taking into account really poor Dugtrio bulk, you may as well match this up with Pursuit trapper which isn't weak to Earth attacks or has bulk to eat up EQ from Dugtrio. Top tier trapper trapped by another one, the irony is strong with this one.

 

[Athicus]

I've got a few theories in my head after looking through the teambuilder. Haven't tried any of them so they'll probably be meh at best.
- Kommo-o with a dragonite-esque set - will probably be UU but might be seen in OU occasionally
- Physical Pivot Silvally with perfect coverage in Fighting Memory and Shadow Claw - again, probably UU due to its average speed
- scarfed Xurkitree, mowing down teams with t-bolt coming off 173 base sp.atk - I'd say BL, I don't think it'll be very popular in OU since Tapu Koko outclasses it as an electric type in general, but it seems hella strong for UU (EDIT: now that I think about it, Xurk might actually be used alongside Tapu Koko for terrain-boosted t-bolts, actually sounds kind of terrifying)
- scarfed Kartana, for exactly the same reasons as Xurkitree, but physical - also probably BL, but could breach into OU popularity
- Alolan golem is basically electric mega Glalie but not weak to rocks, slower, and doesn't take up a mega slot - definitely will have a niche in RU

 

[OverlordDerp]

Found this on Reddit, figured it was worth mentioning: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoesbeta-478292369

Apparently, Z-Conversion on Porygon-Z gives you an all-stat boost + changing your type to the type of the first move in your moveset. Coupled with Adaptability, this gets super ridiculous if you get something like an Electric or Dark type change and STAB Adaptability TBolt / Dark Pulse. It's like Z-Rain Dance Manaphy, but with a type change, 3 attacks and more boosted bulk instead of raw power and 2 attacks.

Hell, you could probably run 2 attacks + Z-Conversion + Recover, of all things, if you're an absolute madman.

 

[chuckeroo777]

Still waiting for Zygarde's new moves.
Been having fun with him, but without Thousand Arrows he gets hard walled by Celesteele.

 

[jacksoras]

Two mons that stick out to me as anti-meta right now are:

1) mega Venu: defensive mega venasaur is so good right now. Now that burn only does 1/6 damage, it's way better at checking water types that relied on scald burns to break it. It also just checks / counters a huge portion of the meta and has a splashable move pool with hp fire, knock off, leech seed etc.

Celesteela: celesteela with automize, four attacks LO has been extremely impressive. It's bulk and typing give it ridiculous amounts of set up and once it gets a kill beast boost just snowballs so hard. Definately one to watch.

 

[Wob]

Honestly I just wish we could ban Kings Shield and keep Aegislash, it's a signature move and we've had actual complex bans before that are way worse (re: gen 4 sand veil ban only for OU while the other tiers don't) or swift swim + drizzle etc. This is just a blanket ban on a move exclusive to Aegislash that removes the 50/50s but still lets Aegislash function as a useful check for frankly stupid ass mons like m-cham tapu lele m scizor m-diancie etc.. and the obviously busted mons now like pheramosa, mawile, genesect, etc. but it's infinitely easier to weaken and check when you know it has to essentially swap after one turn which makes checking this thing significantly easier. With stupidly strong threats introduced this gen with strong abilities and soon to be implemented z moves, I would genuinely want this thing around at least a little bit longer without the part of him that makes him stupid.

I think that we should try to avoid complex bans like that if at all possible. When we think something is broken, we don't try to fix it by altering the moveset that gamefreak gave to it. We just ban the broken Pokemon outright. That's like suggesting that we unban Lugia from Ubers but we ban roost on it. Or we put Scizor in UU but ban it from using Bullet Punch. We didn't ban Protean Greninja and keep Torrent Greninja for a reason. All it does is make things more complex and confusing, especially for those who are new and are trying to learn the meta. While I understand the want to keep Aegislash in the tier to ensure that potentially broken mons stay in check, simply put, if a Pokemon is broken, we should ban it. We shouldn't worry about the effect on the meta too much, because if, say we do ban Aegislash, things like Pheramosa end up becoming overpowered (it arguably already is, but that's besides the point) then we can easily suspect them as well.

 

[Anish]

I've been playing a bit, and I really feel that Tapu Fini is slightly slept on. It almost feels like a Latios who checks a lot of new stuff and Zard X , as well as rain better being hard to Pursuit trap, and not getting Scald burnt is pretty huge. The only major downside is electrics become really painful, and stuff like Zard Y become a little more annoying, and no recovery sucks but Water Fairy typing is really cool. Scarf Gene has put in work a lot of time, and is one of the Pokemon which I believe is healthy for the metagame. With some of the HO pokemon being popular, Prankster Thundurus defenitelyhas a niche of preventing Zard from sweeping, and the utility of Prankster T Wave slowing stuff down for slower breakers like Lando-I or Hoopa-U feels pretty cool as well, even if it is weaker than Tapu Koko.

 

[qsns]

team

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Substitute

Tapu Koko @ Zap Plate
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Roost

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost

Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Have done pretty well on the ladder/against friends with this team. Basic concept is laying up spikes and pressuring with tapu koko/landorus-t's pivoting moves, forcing switches and racking up the spikes damage for either mimikyu or lopunny to clean late game. Mimikyu has been surprisingly good! Disguise is such a huge ability in an offensive tier because it gives you the option to take a strong hit that you'd otherwise not have a switchin for, and retaliate with a full health 'mon, in addition to the obvious use with swords dance. Given its access to priority and alright defenses, it can 1v1 most things in a pinch. I'm using Ghostium-Z with it because I enjoy the flexibility of having a very powerful Shadow Sneak to revenge offensive Pokemon like Tapu Koko from high health and being able to nuke walls such as Venusaur at +2.

also use sub lopunny to beat aegislash. best set rn

 

[Kakimori]

Nonsense, I heard Aegislash can't be beaten and is the worst thing ever to happen to Pokemon. /s

Out of curiousity, how much does the Ghost-type nuke do to M-Venu after a SD?

Looks like a pretty solid team tbh, I'm having trouble coming up with clear counters off the top of my head.

 

[Siggu]

Out of curiousity, how much does the Ghost-type nuke do to M-Venu after a SD?

+2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 274-324 (75.4 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Surprisingly decent.

 

[Wob]

I'm loving this thing at the moment. Mantine really enjoys the access to roost and the +20 to it's HP stat. I could easily see it ending up in UU or even OU once everything settles down. I've been running this set recently, and it's worked pretty well:

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic / Haze

I have to say, 85/70/140 defenses is pretty damn good, and puts it on par with Slowbro. What seperates it from Slowbro, though, is it's ability to function as an effective defogger. It has the bulk to stall a lot of things out with the combination of Toxic + Roost. It also has access to Haze, which means that it can stop sweepers from turning it into setup bait. Also, the fact that it has both Water Absorb and Swift Swim at it's disposal is awesome in a meta which is full of rain teams.

 

[Jahordon]

rain is so fun to use and it absolutely trashes the standard teams people are using. your sweepers in rain outspeed the metagame, and since most teams are offensive, you can slice right through them. the balance matchup is the only one where your opponent should have a chance, ferrothorn being the most notable annoying thing. however, raichu gets focus blast, mega swampert gets low kick/superpower, and there are plenty of tech options to deal with ferro. swampert getting it's speed immediately is absolutely phenomenal. mantine is the only thing that really switches into it, but you have two strong electrics in tapu koko and raichu to deal with the plethora of annoying waters like tapu fini, toxapex etc.. a bulkier, slower pelipper is probably optimal, but i need to do more testing. u-turn on tapu koko is a really solid option to maintain momentum against ur opps ground types.. a steel would be a nice addition to this team but i can't find one that fits right now!

Hide

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 112 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost

Tapu Koko @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam

Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Surf
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Rain Dance
- Explosion

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Ice Punch

I've never played rain, but Pelipper has me intrigued. What's the strategy with a team like this? Lead with Azelf to try and get off SR and Rain Dance before exploding, then bring in Koko for electric surge and just go nuts from there? Bring in Pelipper for a 2nd rain if you need it?

 

[Kakimori]

+2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 274-324 (75.4 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Surprisingly decent.

Jesus Christ, that's rough. We haven't seen much use of Z-Moves in the meta yet (another reason I'm trying to discourage the precipitous rush to judgement and day 1 "Trust me I know the meta LET'S BAN" talk). It seems like the ability to completely blow away a defensive check once per match will be a huge thorn in the side of stall, especially since you don't necessarily know where it's coming from.

 

[Goodstyle]

Haze, Regen, and Rocky helm are a must on Toxapex. You need all the damage and health you can get with him, and haze prevents you from being setup bait. Hard to imagine a successful set with it without these 3 things.

 

[HyDrone]

Is it true that only one Z-move could be used between BOTH players per match? I played Showdown and that's how it is.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Can I just say that Conversion Porygon Z with a Z Move is way to rare on ladder despite being incredible?! Conversion, in case it is unknown by you, turns Porygon(Z) into the typing of its first move, Shadow Ball would make it Ghost, Thunderbolt would make it Electric etc.
This means in one turn you get "Protean"+AncientPowerBoost, which alongside Adaptability turns PorygonZ into one of the by far best users of Z Moves.

Seriously, try it out. Its insane

 

[BenTheDemon]

After playing a few games, I'm starting to notice that Charizard X seems really good in this meta (not that it wasn't in Gen 6). It makes setup fodder out of a lot of the new Pokemon.
I actually find Greninja a bit underwhelming now. Though it's still really good, a lot of defensive Mons came around to make it less threatening.
A really good thing for Greninja, IMO, is that Water Shuriken is now Special, allowing Greninja to have priority without having to run mixed EVs. I actually chose Greninja as my Z-Crystal 'Mon in order to run priority in Water Shuiriken and still have a clutch high-power Water Move that I was missing by discarding Hydro Pump.

Also, I think that I've come up with a short list of things that need to be banned:

Quickbanned: Tapu Koko, Kartana, Pheromosa, Aegislash
These guys are just too fast and heavy hitting to be healthy for the meta.

I also think that all the other ultra beasts should be suspect tested. They all have an insane ability in Beast Boost and almost all have high stats with very little wasted stats. Beast Boost is basically Moxie on crack, and it's just too good of an ability to have on so many Pokemon with great stats and movepools.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

After playing a few games, I'm starting to notice that Charizard X seems really good in this meta (not that it wasn't in Gen 6). It makes setup fodder out of a lot of the new Pokemon.
I actually find Greninja a bit underwhelming now. Though it's still really good, a lot of defensive Mons came around to make it less threatening.
A really good thing for Greninja, IMO, is that Water Shuriken is now Special, allowing Greninja to have priority without having to run mixed EVs. I actually chose Greninja as my Z-Crystal 'Mon in order to run priority in Water Shuiriken and still have a clutch high-power Water Move that I was missing by discarding Hydro Pump.

Also, I think that I've come up with a short list of things that need to be banned:

Quickbanned: Tapu Koko, Kartana, Pheromosa, Aegislash
These guys are just too fast and heavy hitting to be healthy for the meta.

I also think that all the other ultra beasts should be suspect tested. They all have an insane ability in Beast Boost and almost all have high stats with very little wasted stats. Beast Boost is basically Moxie on crack, and it's just too good of an ability to have on so many Pokemon with great stats and movepools.

Koko and Kartana are fairly simple to play around. Even pheromosa gets hard checked by shit like toxapex

 

[Tino45]

+ Tapu Lele
I'm missing those sweet Tapu Lele sprites... Anyways, I'll be honest, I have some concerns. Now I'm no big-time team builder or fortune teller, but Z-Trick Hoopa looks like it can put in heavy work against the hyper offense running around the meta right now.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Psychium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast / Nasty Plot
- Trick

Z-Move Trick with a neutral nature puts Hoopa at 518 Speed (just shy of scarf Keldeo), trading Hoopa's ability to wall-break with Choice sets for a fun late-game sweeper. It's weakness to priority is easily patched up by Tapu Lele's Psychic Surge, who helps it break past walls and create a formidable Psychic-spam core. I'm still working on incorporating it into a team, so let me know if any of you guys pick this up and turn it into something beautiful, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[HyDrone]

Is it true that only one Z-move could be used between BOTH players per match? I played Showdown and that's how it is.

I'm guessing Showdown's beta is just not working properly right now.

 

[QuickBH]

King's Shield isn't a complex ban at all. It's literally banning a move exclusive to Aegislash. You are banning a move, the exact same way as to how Swagger got banned. By that logic banning Drought in UU is a complex ban, that counterargument actually doesn't make any sense. Banning Multiscale specifically for Lugia is a complex ban, a blanket ban on Kings Shield is not.