Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread



Electrike @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Switcheroo

With all the electric spam running around right now, it's very easy for something to be able to come in with a large amount of coverage, sap momentum and cripple an enemy mon. So why not choose Electrike for the role? Sure, his stats may be a little low, but it has the niche of being the only Electric type in LC with Lightning Rod, Switcheroo, and an additionally wonderful coverage move in Flamethrower.
 


Electrike @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Switcheroo

With all the electric spam running around right now, it's very easy for something to be able to come in with a large amount of coverage, sap momentum and cripple an enemy mon. So why not choose Electrike for the role? Sure, his stats may be a little low, but it has the niche of being the only Electric type in LC with Lightning Rod, Switcheroo, and an additionally wonderful coverage move in Flamethrower.
All the Electric Spam running around? Elaborate ? Haven't seen any electric spam myself, thought that was only me lol
 
All the Electric Spam running around? Elaborate ? Haven't seen any electric spam myself, thought that was only me lol
Chinchou, Staryu running Thunderbolt (a lot more common lately), and several others. It's not one of the more prevalent things in LC, but it's definitely something that happened to me enough to where I needed to use Electrike to deal with all of it. Plus it has great synergy with a lot of different LC Pokemon.

Also something I wanted to bring up, with the influx of Pokemon in Gen 6 / 7, has a LC UU tier ever been considered?
 

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Cautiously Optimistic
is a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
Chinchou, Staryu running Thunderbolt (a lot more common lately), and several others. It's not one of the more prevalent things in LC, but it's definitely something that happened to me enough to where I needed to use Electrike to deal with all of it. Plus it has great synergy with a lot of different LC Pokemon.

Also something I wanted to bring up, with the influx of Pokemon in Gen 6 / 7, has a LC UU tier ever been considered?
Given the current state of the metagame, Electric spam sounds like a bad idea. Diglett is everywhere. Scarf Electric-types are very high risk to use now.

Also, LC UU existed last gen but it wasn't very popular. It's coming back next month but I'm not sure if it'll receive much attention.
 
Given the current state of the metagame, Electric spam sounds like a bad idea. Diglett is everywhere. Scarf Electric-types are very high risk to use now.

Also, LC UU existed last gen but it wasn't very popular. It's coming back next month but I'm not sure if it'll receive much attention.
Well if there's anything I can do to help with its popularity please let me know.
 
Given the current state of the metagame, Electric spam sounds like a bad idea. Diglett is everywhere. Scarf Electric-types are very high risk to use now.
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Cautiously Optimistic
is a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
So we just banned Aipom. If you somehow didn't see that, it's here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aipom-is-now-banned-from-sm-lc.3622326/

With that, the metagame can actually progress now. Now that we're a couple of weeks in, disregarding Aipom, how does everyone feel about the meta? Does it feel the same as SM? Does it feel more aggressive? Less so? Also how does everyone feel about Diglett and Torchic? Whenever the idea of possible suspects comes up those are the two biggest names I hear. Of course you can talk about any Pokemon but I wanted to put a spotlight on those two.
 
I think that webs deserves to be looked at, be it the move itself or its strongest abusers (Abra comes to mind). It could be argued that it isn't outright overpowered, as the average webs team has hard counters like Snivy / certain birdspam cores, while teams that are adequately prepared for these counters tend to be less overbearing in other ways; either way, though, I feel that webs forces matchup issues far more than an archetype of its strength should.

Other things that are often brought up for potential suspects include Torchic, Diglett, Vullaby, and to a lesser extent Baton Pass.
 
I think that webs deserves to be looked at, be it the move itself or its strongest abusers (Abra comes to mind). It could be argued that it isn't outright overpowered, as the average webs team has hard counters like Snivy / certain birdspam cores, while teams that are adequately prepared for these counters tend to be less overbearing in other ways; either way, though, I feel that webs forces matchup issues far more than an archetype of its strength should.

Other things that are often brought up for potential suspects include Torchic, Diglett, Vullaby, and to a lesser extent Baton Pass.
Personally I don't feel like Webs is even good in the current state of the metagame.

1. One of the main reasons that made it so easy to keep Webs on the field for the whole game was that the only viable way to remove Webs was Staryu Rapid Spin, which was easy enough to block with Pumpkaboo/Frillish or even Gastly. Vullaby was the second best hazard control, but most people would opt for more offensive Weak Armor sets for Vullaby, and even if they went with a defensive one, then mons like Pawniard/Onix/LO Abra (After rocks)/Dgleam Gastly didn't mind Vullaby at all, and were all common on webs teams. This made it immensely difficult to remove Webs compared to how easy it was to set with Surskit/Spinarak.

Now we have Snivy rising in viability as a prime defogger, challenging Staryus throne (If it has not already taken it). Snivy as a sweeper was always annoying for webs, and now being the most slappable defogger/spinner on every team due to it's ability to switch in on the two most common SR Setters, Onix and Mudbray, means it'll be on about 50% of teams if not more. Unlike Vullaby, Defog Snivy actually got ways to beat Pawniard, so switching a Pawniard directly in can be dangerous (As Leaf Storm into hp Ground kills).

2. The rise in usage of mons like Mudbray. Mudbray itself can tank a hit from most Webs sweepers comfortably (If carrying the right spread that is), while retaliating with an EQ/Heavy Slam/Rock Slide to hit every prominent sweeper for SE damage (Except Gastly/Abra but tell me they be tanking with that paper defense). Other mons that got a buff this gen includes Spritzee, Mareanie and GrimerA, being bulky enough or having the typing to tank hits from Abra/Gastly/Croagunk, the 3 most common Webs sweepers. Mons like these simply do not care about the speeddrop. Also, due to the offensive nature of the metagame (Don't know if that's just an aftermath after Aipom meta or not), Flyingspam, Gastly and generally fast scarfers are also common now, and SturdyJuice Endure Onix being more common now than Weak Armor doesn't help much either.

3. Dewpider is by far not as good as expected. Many people may disagree with me on this, but I think Dewpider is still inferior to Spinarak, although that's not a discussion I will start now. Dewpider is a new bulky tool to webs, and yes it can act as a sweeper on those very same webs teams, but I have yet to see it do anything but set webs and die so far. While having that extreme Water STAB is great, it still struggles to beat common mons like Croagunk/Foongus/Snivy/Mareanie, and while being able to switch in on Foo/Timburr and set webs is great, it rarely does much else after that. It does not do much against common checks to Webs sweepers, bar GrimerA and Mudbray.


If anything is to be suspected in the near future, I'd rather have it be Torchic. Torchpass is still ridiculous, and the buff to mons like Mudbray, Snivy and Spritzee, all being good recievers, just further improved the playstyle. Mons like Rufflet / Timburr / Croagunk are also still extremely viable as recievers, and scary as shit. Mareanie getting more usage again kinda stings, but some players opts to go for Knock+Gunk isntead of Haze, which is a good thing for Torchpass.
 
I think that webs deserves to be looked at, be it the move itself or its strongest abusers (Abra comes to mind). It could be argued that it isn't outright overpowered, as the average webs team has hard counters like Snivy / certain birdspam cores, while teams that are adequately prepared for these counters tend to be less overbearing in other ways; either way, though, I feel that webs forces matchup issues far more than an archetype of its strength should.

Other things that are often brought up for potential suspects include Torchic, Diglett, Vullaby, and to a lesser extent Baton Pass.
I completely agree with Torchic or just baton pass in general, im really interested to see what the outcome would be if it were to be suspected, but I can't really comment on whether or not I think webs is broken, since personally I have no issues with it.
 
I feel as if Dweeble benefits a lot from Dewpider. If both are leads, or if they both happen to meet during the match, Dweeble has the potential to go to 3x if webs are set or KO Dewpider with rock blast after a single shell smash should Dewpider use liquidation instead of a web. Only thing that hinders Dweeble would be stealth rocks of course, but it was just mentioned above the rise of Snivy to defog it all away or the resumed use of Staryu.

Also, at least in my matches, there has been a rise in berry juice Mudbrays. Dweeble, after shell smash, is able to knock it off and then finish it again with another knock off (if they swap out it's a free hit on another pokemon) to defeat it.

Also pairing defiant scarf Pawniard to counter webs teams is a pretty good option. 2x attack and around 15 speed can hit a lot of things hard without using sucker punch.
 
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Gonna give my opinions on the Pokemon Levi mentioned. I don't have webs experience bar dragon spam webs or Mixed Vullaby experience in usum personally so not gonna comment on those.


Torchic- Torchic is a very potent threat both offensively and supportively. It's offensive sets (LO and Firium) have very few good answers. Fire+Grass coverage is just incredible and with 3 viable fire types and 2 of them being 2hkoed by Fire Blast you have a monster to switch in to. Common answers range from Bulky Waters like Mareanie, Frillish, Slowpoke and Chinchou to an extent to Flash Fire Ponyta (Being the best and most splashable answer imo) to Offensive checks like Corphish, Juice Wingull and Juice Onix. Firium also just nukes shit (see here). This doesn't even cover the team support roles it fulfills. Baton Passing speed to teammates is one supportive role Torchic does using it's offensive set. If it gets one of the pokemon that gives it troubles or walls it, no worry. Just protect and pass +2 speed to one of your teammates. This can be anything from a Snivy for Bulky Waters to a Bulky Water or Mudbray for Ponyta to a bulky set up sweeper like Croagunk, Spritzee and Rufflet to name a few. This not only preserves a terrifying offensive presence but also often creates another one in a bulky offensive pokemon that gains speed that it lacks. It's just a pain to deal with. The other set is just full support and thrives off of Offensive being so incredible. Curse/SD Pass. You threaten out something, set up and pass it to an abuser. This can range in effect from your opponent being severely down to just losing the game dependent on teams. I'm not sure how I feel about it personally; Without BP I feel it's fine. Having consistent answers that are fairly common pokemon such as Ponyta, Slowpoke and offensive waters which are excellent right now as well as rocks really hurting LO/Firium sets. Though I doubt any of us have ever used non BP so we'd have to see.

Diglett- I'm very biased on this pokemon; I've been since I began playing LC. I personally feel trapping makes pokemon much less skill based. It takes away one of 2 options you have every turn (attacking and switching). Groundium also just traps non flying and ghost types (obviously) at around 65% (Assuming eviolites are still in tact) And just KO most everything. While I do not think Diglett itself is broken. It constrains teambuilding far too much and really has no counterplay bar Shellder and Snivy being terrifying pokemon as well as making partners much more threatening than before. For example Mienfoo. Knocks a ton of things for diglett to trap. Non Evio Snubbull just dies if U-turned on into Groundium. Same goes for stuff like Croagunk, Mareanie and Spritzee potentially loses 1v1 set dependent and protect mindgames. This doesn't even talk about Memento and stealth rock support it has access to as well as just mindgames it plays. You always have to be thinking what happens if they double into diglett on (insert pokemon here). I can see the argument that Groundium can only be used once and it's not very strong and Pokemon such as shellder and Snivy come in and set-up/fire a big hit off for free afterwards but that happens when a pokemon dies regardless not to mention it has other sets such as Scarf, Life Orb, Eviolite and Sash. Diglett just makes sure the pokemon it traps dies rather than a sack for example.

BP- I get why this hasn't been banned. Other pokemon get it and are healthy options in the metagame though rare, but just ban it. It makes Torchic just a stupid pokemon and the pokemon that do have the option to run it it very rarely run it. The main reason to ban it would be Torchic passing speed to pokemon. Generally it passes this speed to Bulky Offensive threats whose general weakness is their lack of speed and ability to be revenge killed. You're now giving these pokemon the speed they're not meant to have originally and it just frankly makes some pokemon too absurd to deal with. There are also really no phasers in LC that are viable bar Roar Mudbray and/or Onix but they prefer to run things like Taunt/Endure and Rock Slide. The only hazer/clear smogger is Mareanie/the very rare Foongus/Grimer-A which makes BP in general even harder to stop whether just speed, Set up pass, or Full Chain pass. It would stink to lose fun stuff like SD Pass Mienfoo and Rowlet and NP Passers like Togepi and Rowlet but every other tier has banned BP already and in my opinion it has to be either Torchic or Baton Pass.

Keep in mind these are my opinions for potential suspects as Levi said
 
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