1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Middle Cup Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Zystral, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    not expecting this to get rolling as large as NU. format stolen from twash's NU thread

    [​IMG][​IMG]Middle Cup Discussion[​IMG][​IMG]

    Social Group

    What is Middle Cup?
    Middle Cup is a (currently) unofficial tier consisting of a very select range of Pokemon. It is similar to Little Cup except the stipulations are more.
    The rules of Middle Cup are as follows:
    • All Pokemon must be Level 50
    • All Pokemon must have evolved from something (even if from a Baby)
    • All Pokemon must be able to evolve into something

    A list of all the currently Middle Cup Pokemon is available here.

    It's worth noting that Middle Cup is a very new, birthing metagame, with still a small playerbase, so things like Banlists and Threatlists or even a working ladder are still in development and theory, but this is a discussion thread, so if you have any ideas, do feel free to speak up!
  2. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    I would suspect that if, and that's a rather large IF, this metagame takes off, it will more closely resemble UU than OU. Also, there's a rather large gap of power between various middle Pokemon. Let's face it, things like Gabite/Machoke/Kadabra will steamroll everything else in this metagame.
  3. Buzzcut

    Buzzcut

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    148
    I could see something like Dusclops and Chansey being used on most teams just to combat those Pokes. They seem counterable, but will probably be "overused".
  4. TyranitarusRex

    TyranitarusRex

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    21
    I was actually thinking about this the other day, and then I found the group for this. I'm looking forward to seeing it when this metagame comes into practice. Not sure how I could help,but I really want to this this happen.
  5. Plopper

    Plopper

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    476
    IMO stall will totally dominate. Chansey/Physically Defensive Dusclops is an unbreakable core. Add in Roselia for Spikes support, Magneton for Golbat and Porygon2 too... Nothing can break that.
  6. Terminator

    Terminator

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    135
    I remember how this tier was played back in early DP. It was really fun. One thing I remember was seeing Haunter and Kadabra dominate, and of course Pikachu was very scary. Monferno and Machoke are both usable, I guess, and Chansey obviously was on most teams.

    I look forward to see more discussion about this tier!
  7. petrie911

    petrie911

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    859
    Unless I'm mistaken, Electabuzz and Kadabra are the fastest Pokemon in the tier at base 105. This makes the critical scarf speed base 54. In other words, all Scarfed pokemon with base 55 and up can outspeed all non-scarfed Pokemon. Those with 64 base and up can run +attack and outspeed all non-scarfed Pokemon.

    Another interesting thing is the Steel types: only Metang and Lairon are allowed. Lairon has the rather threatening Head Smash off 90 base attack and 60/140/50 defenses. Metang has the more balanced 60/100/80 defenses, but has only a 75 base attack Meteor Mash to threaten opponents.

    I would guess Shelgon > Gabite. Higher base attack and the ability to use Dragon Dance make it a force to be reckoned with. Its only downside is 50 speed, meaning it needs 2 Ddances to outspeed Kadabra and Electabuzz. Gabite has that wonderful STAB EQ, though, hitting the only two Steels in the tier for massive damage. Gabite would probably make an excellent Scarfer, too, much like Scarfchomp in OU.

    For those concerned about stall, there's always Monferno. Chansey stands no chance against STAB CC, Dusclops is an opportunity to get +2, Roselia gets a Fire Blast, Wartortle gets HP Grass, etc. Pretty much the only thing to stop it is Golbat.

    I think this would be a rather interesting meta. Would like to give it a try.

    EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot Belly Drum Poliwhirl. Sub/BD/Waterfall/Return@Salac lets it OHKO everything in the metagame after it sets up, and only Scarf base 93+ outspeed it. Shame it doesn't get Aqua Jet.

    Also, no Dark types in the tier at all. Great for Kadabra and Haunter.
  8. Chateau

    Chateau

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    Messages:
    440
    This would make for some interesting possibilities. It would be one tier where Hail and Sand could be nearly nonexistant.
  9. Slyguy46

    Slyguy46

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    376
    Definitely looks like fun. My interest is officially peaked.
  10. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    A large amount of Rain setup and sweepers are also banned from this, such as Electrode and Kabutops. The only Pokemon that can be seen regularly in Rain would be Lombre, maybe.

    Conversely, I can see quite a few Sun abusers. And yes, I think Haunter/Kadabra and Monferno will dominate offense and Dusclops/Chansey dominating Stall.
  11. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Wi-Fi Commissioner

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    2,762
    you forgot nuzleaf

    This sounds interesting, may consider playing if it becomes more popular. Personally, I'd find it difficult to stall with something like Rhydon around, who can OHKO/2HKO almost every other Pokemon in this metagame, and outspeed all non-scarfed Pokemon after a single RP.
  12. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    928
    seems interesting i may try it. i hope though that Chansy eventually gets banned it seems quite hard to break as it is
  13. EvilMario

    EvilMario

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    573
    Rhydon is the Pokemon that immediately sticks out as too much to handle. Nothing can realistically take a hit from it, and relying on priority means relying mostly on physical moves against his massive defense.

    Of course, other than Rhydon, it does look like stall will be mighty. Chansey (Softboiled, Wish, SR), Dusclops (Pain Split), Porygon2 (Recover).. even things like Grotle (Synthesis, SR), and Shelgon (Wish). Stall will have issues though, but more so due to its Pokemon pool and not over whelming attackers. There are only a couple viable Toxic Spikers in the tier, including Roselia and Nidornia; neither which is much of a defensive giant. And then there's weather. MC has no permanent weather starter, and any Hail/Sand Stream will have to be used as a move.

    Speaking of weather, Seadra is the only viable Swift Swimmer in the tier, but only from the Special side.

    It does appear like the metagame will boil down to about 10-12 Pokemon, with the small move pool.

    It would definitely be interesting to play though!
  14. Comet

    Comet

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    148
    KAKUNA. It's gonna get on the banlist fosho.
  15. Staraptor Call

    Staraptor Call

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,422
    Middle Cup sounds a lot like the RBY metagame. There are only a few viable Pokemon, Psychics and Ghosts dominate, Rhydon and Chansey are highly used, weather is mostly a non-issue, and there are a large number of broken Pokemon.

    Also, Baton Pass seems to be mostly absent from the tier. The only Pokemon in Middle Cup that can use Baton Pass are Togetic and Combusken, neither of which is very viable.
  16. Plopper

    Plopper

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    476
    Just made a breakdown of useable Pokemon. Feel free to edit the list.

    Chansey will totally and utterly dominate. Basically teams will be forced to run Golbat, CB Piloswine or CB/SD Rhydon to eliminate it.

    Dusclops will be also a formidable wall, although not totally broken like Chansey is. 40/130/130 defenses are nothing to scoff at, especially at this level.

    Rhydon will be the greatest attacker in the tier. It has 130 Attack, and STAB on EQ & Stone Edge. It's also extremely bulky on the physical side. It can run CB, Swords Dance or Rock Polish, all extremely viable sets.

    Magneton will be a staple on defensive and offensive teams alike. It has 11 resistances, respectable defenses and 120 SpA, tied for the highest in this tier.

    Golbat will dismantle stall with Taunt, Toxic/Poison Fang, Substitute/Mean Look and Roost. Since games will be revolving around removing Chansey so special sweepers can sweep, I expect it to be used a lot.

    Kadabra will be the premier special sweeper of the tier. I expect it to be nearly unstoppable (Chansey ;.;). Metang will also be a problem.

    Haunter is both slower and weaker than Kadabra. Gimmicky options like Explosion, WoW, Pain Split and a better movepool in general will be what makes it worth using.

    Porygon2 will be both a defensive pivot and a special powerhouse with great stats all around. Worth to note, it's the only thing that can set up Trick Room reliably.

    Piloswine has decent defenses and 100 Attack to boot. It can go defensive, set up SR; Curse or CB. It has the strongest priority (Ice Shard) in the tier.

    Metang has great defenses and 75 Attack. With STAB Bullet Punch, a x4 resistance to Psychic and Pursuit; it will be used to trap Kadabra and Haunter. It can reliably pick up weakened Pokemon.

    Pikachu will be *gasp* useful! It has horrible defenses though, and anything that can take a hit or outspeed will kill it.

    Electabuzz will be a Pikachu replacement. It doesn't have the raw power Pikachu does. However, it's faster and won't roll over and die at the first hit. As a bonus, it can use Cross Chop to deter Chansey from switching in too easily.

    Marshtomp will only be used to counter Rhydon. It can also set up SR. It's not very useful otherwise, though.

    Monferno will be used as a lead, mostly: Fake Out/SR/Fire Blast/Encore or Close Combat. It can use Swords Dance as a late-game sweeper as well.

    Staravia is the only thing with Intimidate. I doubt it will be actually used bar heavy stall teams, since it's totally deadweight on a team. 80 (Speed) is the highest stat of Staravia, followed by 75 (Attack).

    Gabite can be used as a revenge killer or a bander with Outrage/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Shadow Claw. It is extremely predictable, but pretty efficient nonetheless.

    Ivysaur is notable as the only Pokemon with an accurate sleep move. It has mediocre stats otherwise though, and an incredibly shallow movepool.

    Grovyle: Jack of all trades, master of none. It has a great movepool, high speed and okay offenses. Will be used as a revenge killer or a Swords Dancer.
  17. Slyguy46

    Slyguy46

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    376
    As I was saying on IRC, Magmar is a definite threat, with it's 95/100 Attacks and Base 93 Speed. A MixMar set could easily take out several key pokemon on an opposing team.
  18. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    I actually had the idea of a Double Boost Rhydon with Swords Dance and Rock Polish with a Lum Berry. Feign Swords Dance to lure in something to try to burn him, and Swords Dance. Then slaughter everything with STAB EdgeQuake.

    Also, yes, Chansey is going to be a HUGE problem. I can actually forsee Chansey being perhaps the only Pokemon in Middle Cup that actually might earn a ban. :/
  19. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    It's worth noting that Scarf Gabite is an incredibly effective sweeper once you remove their Steel. And since everybody and their mother has a Magneton, that's not hard.
    Also, Shadow Claw is redundant on Gabite. STAB Outrage actually does more than x2 SE Shadow Claw.
    2 * 70 < 120 * 1.5

    Also, Chansey + Dusclops isn't that hard to break. Gabite can actually 2HKO Dusclops with Stealth Rock in play using Outrage, so there's definitely possibilities. +1 Dragonair / Pupitar is also pretty effective since they have nuts-ass powerful STABs as well as DDance.
    Shelgon, not as good, too slow.
    Vibrava... lol

    So it is similar to OU as well. It's got the defensive regions of UU with the offensive power of OU. Just, balanced out is all.

    But yeah, notable banning suspects are likely to include; Chansey, Magneton, maybe Kadabra.
  20. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    I doubt Magneton or Kadabra should be banned. You can still work around the latter two in quite a few ways, be it something simple like sending in Monferno to decimate Magneton or get a Scarfed Physical user to rip Kadabra apart, such as Rock Polished Rhydon or something simple like a Scarf Gabite.
  21. XxJohny2haixX

    XxJohny2haixX

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Messages:
    127
    This seems like a good idea, including the middle evolution.
  22. blasphemy1

    blasphemy1

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,688
    Just like to point out Seadra's two abilities are Poison Point and Sniper (Swift Swim as Horsea, Poison Point, then Swift Swim as Kingdra).

    This tier definitely has me interested. Poliwhirl will be a complete nuisance with its 90 base speed + Encore.
  23. mien

    mien
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    691
    Creating a new metagame is a waste of time, most 'gimmick' tiers such as cap, little cup and NU barely have enough activity with their small (albeit devoted) community's. Making more of these would just split the limited ammount of people considering to play a metagame out of standard. Effectivly ruining all of them to inactivity

    Besides Gen 5 is comming up in a month, as such even if you manage to create a banlist for this. By the time you are finished gen 5 will have started and you might start as well all over again.

    edit: it would be nice if they made a rule of this, i've seen a lot of similar topics with 'new' metagame suggestions getting deleted lately
  24. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryonce in a while to keep me busy
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,585
    Banning Chansey in MC would be similar to banning Blissey in OU: People will want it, yes, but there's always ways to work around it. Certainly though, I think Chansey will be more effective than Blissey in its respective metagame since its Special Defense and HP are still enormous and its Defense is only slightly more pathetic than Blissey's. Combine this with the fact that most the Pokémon who qualify for MC status have less attacking prowess than their UU/OU counterparts.

    Any way it goes, this seems like something that I could totally get into if I have the time, and I'm really excited to see this take off. I just joined the social group!

    edit: Mien. is right about Gen 5 being on our doorsteps. This will only add a host of new Pokémon that fit the bill for Middle Cup, so a fresh metagame can evolve from this and last a few years before Pokémon Helium and Hydrogen come our way.

    That being said, if Gen 5 brings only a few Dark and Steel type Stage 2's, Psychic can be a much more viable typing again as it was in RBY.
  25. Plopper

    Plopper

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    476
    Porygon2 @ Leftovers
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Recover
    ~ Charge Beam
    ~ Tri Attack

    Seems like it'd murder everything. +6 Tri Attack with Download activated vs 0/252+ Chansey: 53.5% - 63.2%

    ---

    Rhydon @ Choice Band
    ~ Crunch
    ~ Aqua Tail
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Stone Edge

    Another suspect. Everything in the tier gets at least 2HKOd. It's slow and frail on the special side, but with 105/120 defenses on the physical side and some Wish support, it's not hard to get kills every match no matter how prepared the opposition is, or at least punch holes to allow something like SD Monferno or LO Piloswine sweep.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)