M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #1: Cresselia

#26
Sigh



This is the first suspect test I've voted in. I don't know what compelled me to qualify for reqs, but here I am. Literally undefeated, so you know I'm the best. Shoutouts:
  • InfernapeTropius11 because on my first alt (Jaducken) I stole his juicy Muk stall team with Deoxys-D > Cress to prove a point. I did pretty well until I coincidentally fought IT11 himself on the ladder and got instantly 6-0'd by his unstoppable Ghosteus HO squad. He passed me the team and I did really well with it, until I encountered IT11 again for the mirror matchup, which I lost. At this point I had too many losses on the account to get the COIL in a reasonable amount of games, so I started the Duckjoken alt using only the HO team. As you can see, it worked pretty well. Thanks man--I encourage you to post the team after you're bored getting free points with it because it literally cannot be stopped except by itself.
  • That friendly Chilean guy that didn't know what he was doing for the free points and good vibes
  • That one fucking guy with Sash mixed Dragonite, Sash FEAR Rattata and goddamn Sash Hypnosis Poliwrath for my final COIL
Now, on to the point:


NO BAN
This suspect kind of bothers me in principle. Do you just get walled to hell by Cresselia if you don't prepare for it? Well, yeah, but that's true of Sablenite Blissey or literally even Eviolite Chansey. As people have posted earlier in the thread, there are numerous offensive Pokemon that not only blow Cress away, but take advantage of its mere presence to put pressure on the whole team. People have less-so discussed the options for defensive teams, but they almost certainly exist even if people aren't using them. Let me just come up with random sets off the top of my head--are Gyaradosite Skarmory or Nihilego real sets? I don't know, but they could be and don't sound that bad--both of them can utilize Mold Breaker to break Magic Bounce for setting up hazards or throwing off a Toxic (in Skarmory's case, Whilwind works too). Maybe those sets are actually shit in the metagame, I don't know, my point is that I came up with them after 10 seconds of thinking and surely other people can do better. That's one of the great benefits of MnM: the potential for innovation is high, and unexpected threats can come from anywhere. Did I lose to Scizorite Lycanrock in one game? Absolutely.

The other thing that bothers me is the people that vote to ban Cresselia because it's not broken now but might be later. What? Why the hell do we even have a suspect ladder to see a Cress-less experience in this particular metagame then? QT basically confirmed that Cresselia could get another suspect later down the line if it needs one, and GoS liked that post, so anyone that uses this as their primary reasoning to ban should reevaluate their stance. Just ask STABmons or Little Cup how many times they've suspected Diggersby or Diglet. In the current metagame, Cresselia is:
  1. Easily checked by a list of non-niche Pokemon through multiple avenues
  2. A potential liability due to its passivity until several turns have passed
  3. Non-restrictive in the playstyles/Pokemon it allows to succeed
That doesn't sound super ban-worthy to me. "Ohmygod its so fat" or "Maybe it will be broken one day (gazes wistfully out the window)" are not valid reasons to ban it either.
 
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#27
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I did it. I won't be voting yet since I did not use Cresselia or face a single one either, so I need to learn more before I vote.
My only 2 losses were from another suspect player and me being disconnected once against a Noob.
Here is an example of Low Skill I found on the ladder.
His Primal Kyogre set of Double-Edge, Frustration, Hidden Power Fire, and Ancient Power is just bad and he uses it in the worse way possible.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-499740463
The ladder is so weak anybody can reach requirements.
 

MacChaeger

i'm gonna pyuk
is a Pre-Contributor
#28
View attachment 75159
I did it. I won't be voting yet since I did not use Cresselia or face a single one either, so I need to learn more before I vote.
My only 2 losses were from another suspect player and me being disconnected once against a Noob.
Here is an example of Low Skill I found on the ladder.
His Primal Kyogre set of Double-Edge, Frustration, Hidden Power Fire, and Ancient Power is just bad and he uses it in the worse way possible.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-499740463
The ladder is so weak anybody can reach requirements.
You wouldn't have seen a single Cresselia or been able to use one, because Cresselia is banned from holding stones and orbs for the suspect ladder. Since the regular ladder isn't available for a comparison, you kinda have to already know what Cresselia does and have formed an opinion on it to actually vote; the whole getting reqs thing is to make sure that you're actually good at the meta without spamming the supposedly broken thing. In my opinion, this is an imperfect system; your lack of any frame of reference with which to judge Cresselia's effect on the meta as negative or not is clear evidence of a fundamental flaw. With that said, I don't know of any way that would be strictly better than this one, other than maybe having the original ladder be available while the suspect is happening.

There was that thing E4 Flint did with the Gen 6 Protean suspect, where you had to earn reqs twice, once on the regular ladder, and once again with Protean banned, but from what I remember, that was very difficult, and discouraged a lot of players from even trying, so maybe that method should be reserved for metas with very large playerbases like AG.
 
#30
You can't vote in the suspect unless you earned 3000 coil on the suspect ladder with an alt that has the word "duck" in the name, although I feel like that last part shouldn't be necessary, since the suspect ladder is a different ladder from the main one as far as ranks are concerned.
I do agree that the duck part shouldn't be necessary, though.
Would also like to know why we need to have an alt with duck in its name, seems rather odd considering the whole separate ladder thing going on, mainly since I don't particularly want to get the reps all over again... (that is of course, assuming I actually get the reps required.)
 
#32
I'm frankly shocked and amazed with these suspect votes.

I guess I'm gonna have to work to get this thing banned.

Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 169-201 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Pheromosa Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-276 (52.2 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh, great, one thing that can beat cress. Oh wait.
0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 326-386 (108.3 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Beaten by Cress.

252 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 122-146 (27.4 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

0 SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 106-126 (23.8 - 28.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 100-118 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 127-150 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

248+ Atk Aerilate Genesect Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Gyarados Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 114-135 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 153-180 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.
All of you who said these mons were the answer - Didn't do the math.

I urge you strongly to reconsider your votes. Tagging those who voted based on this. Zephyr disappointed in your math.
Pradhaaan Jajoken Zephyr Dragon Lord poloki ZekromFan gmfc
 
#33
I'm frankly shocked and amazed with these suspect votes.

I guess I'm gonna have to work to get this thing banned.

Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 169-201 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Pheromosa Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-276 (52.2 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh, great, one thing that can beat cress. Oh wait.
0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 326-386 (108.3 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Beaten by Cress.

252 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 122-146 (27.4 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

0 SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 106-126 (23.8 - 28.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 100-118 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 127-150 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

248+ Atk Aerilate Genesect Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Gyarados Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 114-135 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 153-180 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.
All of you who said these mons were the answer - Didn't do the math.

I urge you strongly to reconsider your votes. Tagging those who voted based on this. Zephyr disappointed in your math.
Pradhaaan Jajoken Zephyr Dragon Lord poloki ZekromFan gmfc
I'm sorry? Primal Kyogre does win, because cress is only healing 25, so it needs to be at +3 or more. Gyarados can DD, Genesect can set up or uturn out, nobody is talking about entei, if you're calcing offensive PDon (which is what is being spoken of) use actual attack EVs, and probably +2, Scizor can SD and beats out moonlight even before boosting, KYub can just sit on cress all day behind a sub while forcing constant recovery (or use hone claws), regigigas gets PuP, tough claws, and can also force constant recovery... all of these choices seem cherry picked, and don't say what you want them to.
 
#34
I'm frankly shocked and amazed with these suspect votes.

I guess I'm gonna have to work to get this thing banned.

Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 169-201 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Pheromosa Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-276 (52.2 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh, great, one thing that can beat cress. Oh wait.
0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 326-386 (108.3 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Beaten by Cress.

252 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 122-146 (27.4 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

0 SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 106-126 (23.8 - 28.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 100-118 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 127-150 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

248+ Atk Aerilate Genesect Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Gyarados Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 114-135 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 153-180 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.
All of you who said these mons were the answer - Didn't do the math.

I urge you strongly to reconsider your votes. Tagging those who voted based on this. Zephyr disappointed in your math.
Pradhaaan Jajoken Zephyr Dragon Lord poloki ZekromFan gmfc
so u are trying to say tht cresselia will be always at full health and there will be no rocks on the field?? Dude plzz. Also the fact that cress has so low pp of recovery n its recovery is affected by weather means that it can be played around. So im still voting no ban cuz i have defeated very well built cresselia stalls n i know how to play around cress so it is not huge problem for me.
 
#35
Oh wow, unboosted physical attackers can't beat a max investment physically defensive wall using mostly neutral moves. Sorry I didn't do the math on that one, looks like moon bird is super busted after all. I'd change my vote but tbh Cress is a little too cute to ban so I think I'll vote for it to stay, sorry folks.
 
#36
I'm frankly shocked and amazed with these suspect votes.

I guess I'm gonna have to work to get this thing banned.

Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 169-201 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Adaptability Pheromosa Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 232-276 (52.2 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh, great, one thing that can beat cress. Oh wait.
0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 326-386 (108.3 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Beaten by Cress.

252 Atk Blue Orb Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 122-146 (27.4 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

0 SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 106-126 (23.8 - 28.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 100-118 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 127-150 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.

248+ Atk Aerilate Genesect Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ Atk Aerilate Gyarados Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 114-135 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Beaten by Cress.

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 153-180 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beaten by Cress.
All of you who said these mons were the answer - Didn't do the math.

I urge you strongly to reconsider your votes. Tagging those who voted based on this. Zephyr disappointed in your math.
Pradhaaan Jajoken Zephyr Dragon Lord poloki ZekromFan gmfc
Durza. Stop while you're still ahead. Those calculations don't prove too much. You had one calculation based on Creeselia's attacking prowess. And that's against something that has no reason to not U-turn against Cresselia's sorry state.

From what I can gather based on what you calculated...
Sablenite Cresselia soundly beats: Primal Groudon, perhaps Entei and Arcanine (depending on if they decide to pack Howl) It also beats Red Orb Raikou, which is fairly obvious.
Sablenite Cresselia is on even ground with: Non-Bug Buzz Genesect, Speedy Salamancite Gyarados (comes down to a 50/50 if Toxic is involved).
Sablenite Cresselia loses to: Primal Kyogre (I'm kind of surprised, actually), Kyruem-Black, Regigigas, (those two can easily ruin your Moonlight PP), Bulky Salamancite Gyarados (can you say free Substitute?), and Pheromosa (U-turns into something that can decimate you).
Sablenite Cresselia is HOPLESSLY WALLED by: Blue Orb Scizor. I proved this earlier, and it still stands. Can do whatever it feels like. Oh, and it has no reason to not use X-Scissor over Bug Bite, which also does more damage.

Basically, you need to do some research into what makes a tank good. Cresselia is good, but is hardly invincible, especially thanks to base 95 SpA being severely lacking in Mix and Mega... Heck, I think even Politoed gets a free Belly Drum out of it... (and can benefit when Swampertite is released again)
 
#37
Alright, I feel like the point has gotten across. Move on from this Durza, Zephyr, Jajoken and anybody else eager to chime in.

Screen Shot 2016-12-17 at 11.12.13.png


I'm surprised I managed to gets reqs, I didn't have a lot of time. Cresselia is bipolar. One one hand it's bulk is undeniably too much. 120/170/180 is so awe inspiringly bulky that in the hands of almost any other pokemon - I'd be too much. Magic Bounce is the best ability Cresselia could ask for. Magic bounce sweepers are incredible difficult for balance to handle. The thing is, not everything is capable of sweeping or having a blue orb and Cresselia is perfectly capable of outliving them. Sure, you can run Golisopod, Gyarados, Groudon or Hoopa-U and pressure Cresselia, but can you reliably keep these pokemon healthy enough to ensure they win 1v1?

The reason I initiated this suspect test was because Cresselia draws the momentum to a halt every time it enters the field. It's so overwhelmingly bulky that you can't let it get out of hand. You're forced to drop your momentum and rush to your Cresselia check, a stand off. I remember battling on the ladder and it ended up being me stalling his Cresselia out of Moonlights 6% of the time with burns while I spammed Haze and Recover. It took almost 30 minutes but eventually I won. Had I done anything else I would've been swept. Even with checks it was always close, had my opponent gotten lucky he would've won. A metagame with Cresselia is inherently boring, slow and dull. Cresselia is too much for the metagame to overwhelm and it kills the momentum that I adore about Mix and Mega.

Therefore I vote Ban Cresselia

 
#38
I don't have a duck account to cast a vote for, but I feel I need to speak my mind about this:

Cresselia in MnM is the prime example of a floodgate; a tool that halts momentum to a standstill until removed. It's no secret that MnM has its fair share of these outside of Cresselia such as Blissey, Skarmory, Zapdos, Groudon, and more, but Cresselia is different in that, unlike the ones mentioned, it does not have an easily-accessible way to get around. Cresselia's absurd defenses even by MnM's standards along with easy boosting and fairly-reliable healing makes it almost impossible to break while it sweeps past the rest with Moonblast, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, or Ice Beam with almost nothing that can be done about it due to Magic Bounce.

It is true that there are some ways to stop Cresselia's rampage such as using Gyaradosite, or a Steel type with Blue Orb and/or recovery, or another specific tech to deal with Cresselia, but the fact still remains that you are wasting valuable resources just to get rid of a specific threat that single-handedly stops the gamestate until is removed. I don't care what game you're playing, under no circumstances should any game ever allow something that easily prevents other players from playing said game; it's simply inexcusable.
 
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#39
If I may, I'm going to compare Cresselia to a Poke that's banned from OU for similar bulky reasons: Giratina-A. Is Giratina-A a good sweeper? Not really, but it can sweep if it gets enough calm minds off despite it having an average-at-best Sp. Atk stat. Is Giratina-A a hideously bulky wall? Absolutely. Does it have an exploitable recovery that can be stalled out? You betcha. Is it banned for any of these reasons? Bar being a hideously bulky wall, no.
What makes Giratina-A so comparable to Cresselia is the fact that both wall literally everything that can't hit it with a ridiculously powerful STAB(generally an SE hit) or set up on them; and as Grains of Salt said, Cress, much like Giratina-A, grinds all momentum to a halt.
(that 30 minute battle was with me, if I remember correctly) And again, as GoS said, most of its "checks" rely on being at full health with zero status conditions against an unboosted Cress. Heck, most of its checks only 3HKO it and generally sacrifice themselves JUST to bring down cress, or have to set up on it, which(I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet) if Cresselia is running THUNDER WAVE(it still has a free slot) means the check is now crippled for the rest of the game, and cress gets to run away after losing only a chunk of its bulk that it can easily get back later. Anyways, CM isn't the only set Cresselia can run, it can also run some rather aggravating Toxic/Twave Support sets which can completely ruin players thinking to switch in something that was going to stop a sweep, only to find something getting crippled.

Remember folks, we're not just testing to see if Cresselia is/was broken, we're testing to see if it's HEALTHY for the metagame. Not being broken doesn't mean it's healthy.

TL;DR: Cresselia is a fat thing that limits teambuilding(without proper checks you get swept/walled) with no true counters that takes very little effort to slap on a team, and requires about as much skill to use. Its checks can be screwed over easily, and Cress still kills momentum no matter how much you try to keep it from doing so. The current meta is: Opponent sends out Cress, Cress walls something, you scramble to switch to your check, and eitherA: Cress ends up dying and you end up with a 1:1 trade due to the check generally being at around 33% or B: Cress runs away, your check takes enough damage over the battle that it can't check Cresselia anymore. Or C: Cress doesn't ever sweep, but it keeps your offensive momentum from going anywhere because you can't afford to let it set up.
 
#40
If I may, I'm going to compare Cresselia to a Poke that's banned from OU for similar bulky reasons: Giratina-A. Is Giratina-A a good sweeper? Not really, but it can sweep if it gets enough calm minds off despite it having an average-at-best Sp. Atk stat. Is Giratina-A a hideously bulky wall? Absolutely. Does it have an exploitable recovery that can be stalled out? You betcha. Is it banned for any of these reasons? Bar being a hideously bulky wall, no.
What makes Giratina-A so comparable to Cresselia is the fact that both wall literally everything that can't hit it with a ridiculously powerful STAB(generally an SE hit) or set up on them; and as Grains of Salt said, Cress, much like Giratina-A, grinds all momentum to a halt.
(that 30 minute battle was with me, if I remember correctly) And again, as GoS said, most of its "checks" rely on being at full health with zero status conditions against an unboosted Cress. Heck, most of its checks only 3HKO it and generally sacrifice themselves JUST to bring down cress, or have to set up on it, which(I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet) if Cresselia is running THUNDER WAVE(it still has a free slot) means the check is now crippled for the rest of the game, and cress gets to run away after losing only a chunk of its bulk that it can easily get back later. Anyways, CM isn't the only set Cresselia can run, it can also run some rather aggravating Toxic/Twave Support sets which can completely ruin players thinking to switch in something that was going to stop a sweep, only to find something getting crippled.

Remember folks, we're not just testing to see if Cresselia is/was broken, we're testing to see if it's HEALTHY for the metagame. Not being broken doesn't mean it's healthy.

TL;DR: Cresselia is a fat thing that limits teambuilding(without proper checks you get swept/walled) with no true counters that takes very little effort to slap on a team, and requires about as much skill to use. Its checks can be screwed over easily, and Cress still kills momentum no matter how much you try to keep it from doing so. The current meta is: Opponent sends out Cress, Cress walls something, you scramble to switch to your check, and eitherA: Cress ends up dying and you end up with a 1:1 trade due to the check generally being at around 33% or B: Cress runs away, your check takes enough damage over the battle that it can't check Cresselia anymore. Or C: Cress doesn't ever sweep, but it keeps your offensive momentum from going anywhere because you can't afford to let it set up.
While this is an apt analogy, there are a few key differences to note here;

1.) Base Special attack.
Cresselia has base 90 SpA with Sablenite after Mega Evolving. Giratina-Altered Forme has 100 SpA. This might not seem like much, but recall that we are in a game where base stats are heavily liable to go up everywhere, and the whole metagame not only hits harder, but is also bulkier, than OU. As a result, Giratina is much harder to break than Cress in their respective environments.

2.) Movepool.
Yeah, I know what you're thinking: "But all you need is Calm Mind, some good attacks, and Rest!". Both Cresselia and Giratina certainly possess all of those. But I'd like to call special attention to Giratina having Will-o-Wisp. It is great at crippling would-be sweepers that have the gall of setting up in front of Giratina. You can then double Hex's power, and then, well... your foe is probably struggling to keep up at that point. The only things Cresselia do to deter offense is being fat, and being a Magic Bouncer. EDIT: Thunder Wave, too. That is a valid move to put on there, if you feeling like incapacitating sweepers. Though those are valid points in of themselves.

3.) Recovery
Yes, it's so important that it needs its own section. Basically, we're looking at Moonlight versus Rest. While Moonlight is certainly the better option for most cases, it has a major liability: Low PP. Blue Orb steels can take advantage of this to win stall wars with Cresselia. And what else are Blue Orb Steels used for..? Hmm... walling Extreme Speed? Yes, that's it. You might argue that it's overcentralized, and if so, point taken, but there are ways to shut down Moonlight. (why doesn't it get stronger in rain, and not sun)
As for Giratina, it only has Rest. But if Suicune has taught you anything, it is able to afford that luxury to utilize Rest as a reliable recovery. And when the enemy is burned, you can do so, and easily switch to a bulky Heal Bell user. And yes, Cresselia has access to Rest too, and this is a way out of Gyaradosite users lacking Taunt. But it has less to take advantage of this, and more that CAN take advantage of it than Giratina. By the time you wake up, you could be staring at a +1 Gyarados with a Substitute up. And now it even more handily beats you. But you could also deal with a mistake of your own, and deal with a Toxic Spike slip-up, so there is still valid reason to use it over Moonlight.

Ugh, I've been talking too long. Point is: Giratina's less passive than Cresselia, and the stats and movepool make a big difference in differentiating them. As for being part of a healthy metagame, we'll see. (As for possibly scaring off new people due to fatness, Suicune and Blissey do that already!)
 
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#41
While this is an apt analogy, there are a few key differences to note here;

1.) Base Special attack.
Cresselia has base 90 SpA with Sablenite after Mega Evolving. Giratina-Altered Forme has 100 SpA. This might not seem like much, but recall that we are in a game where base stats are heavily liable to go up everywhere, and the whole metagame not only hits harder, but is also bulkier, than OU. As a result, Giratina is much harder to break than Cress in their respective environments.

2.) Movepool.
Yeah, I know what you're thinking: "But all you need is Calm Mind, some good attacks, and Rest!". Both Cresselia and Giratina certainly possess all of those. But I'd like to call special attention to Giratina having Will-o-Wisp. It is great at crippling would-be sweepers that have the gall of setting up in font of Giratina. You can then double Hex's power, and then, well... your foe is probably struggling to keep up at that point. The only things Cresselia do to deter offense is being fat, and being a Magic Bouncer. Though those are valid points in of themselves.

3.) Recovery
Yes, it's so important that it needs its own section. Basically, we're looking at Moonlight versus Rest. While Moonlight is certainly the better option for most cases, it has a major liability: Low PP. Blue Orb steels can take advantage of this to win stall wars with Cresselia. And what else are Blue Orb Steels used for..? Hmm... walling Extreme Speed? Yes, that's it. You might argue that it's overcentralized, and if so, point taken, but there are ways to shut down Moonlight. (why doesn't it get stronger in rain, and not sun)
As for Giratina, it only has Rest. But if Suicune has taught you anything, it is able to afford that luxury to utilize Rest as a reliable recovery. And when the enemy is burned, you can do so, and easily switch to a bulky Heal Bell user. And yes, Cresselia has access to Rest to, and this is a way out of Gyaradosite users lacking Taunt. But it has less to take advantage of this, and more that CAN take advantage of it than Giratina. By the time you wake up, you could be staring at a +1 Gyarados with a Substitute up. And now it even more handily beats you. But you could also deal with a mistake of your own, and deal with a Toxic Spike slip-up, so there is still valid reason to use it over Moonlight.

Ugh, I've been talking too long. Point is: Giratina's less passive than Cresselia, and the stats and movepool make a big difference in differentiating them. As for being part of a healthy metagame, we'll see. (As for possibly scaring off new people due to fatness, Suicune and Blissey do that already!)
What?! If you want to give Cress Rest you are more than welcome to... You have to option, so don't use it as a comparison.
 
#42
I don't have a duck account to cast a vote for, but I feel I need to speak my mind about this:

Cresselia in MnM is the prime example of a floodgate; a tool that halts momentum to a standstill until removed. It's no secret that MnM has its fair share of these outside of Cresselia such as Blissey, Skarmory, Zapdos, Groudon, and more, but Cresselia is different in that, unlike the ones mentioned, it does not have an easily-accessible way to get around. Cresselia's absurd defenses even by MnM's standards along with easy boosting and fairly-reliable healing makes it almost impossible to break while it sweeps past the rest with Moonblast, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, or Ice Beam with almost nothing that can be done about it due to Magic Bounce.

It is true that there are some ways to stop Cresselia's rampage such as using Gyaradosite, or a Steel type with Blue Orb and/or recovery, or another specific tech to deal with Cresselia, but the fact still remains that you are wasting valuable resources just to get rid of a specific threat that single-handedly stops the gamestate until is removed. I don't care what game you're playing, under no circumstances should any game ever allow something that easily prevents other players from playing said game; it's simply inexcusable.
I have to admit, I'm not certain what your getting at, so apologies if this isn't what you were trying to say; if I've misinterpreted your point, let me know so I can remove this. With that being said:
Stall is a legitimate playstyle. It's not one that is very popular, but it's a competitive, skill intensive way of playing that game that just happens to involve slowly wearing down the foe. Being bulky enough to stop a sweep isn't a bad thing; as long as otherwise viable, reasonably reliable, and nonspecific counterplay is available, then there isn't anything wrong with slowing down the game; that's the entire point of stall, or at least most of it. In this case, Cresselia has several multipurpose, reliable counters (Blue Orb Scizor, Arceus Steel, Magearna, Arceus Ghost, Hoopa-U (Can't come on moonblast that often, but nothing comes in on it after it forces out Cress), Refresh+Cm Darkceus), and a great many soft answers (Such as everything spoken of above).
It may very well be unhealthy, but the situation isn't as cut and dried as you seem to be implying.
If I may, I'm going to compare Cresselia to a Poke that's banned from OU for similar bulky reasons: Giratina-A. Is Giratina-A a good sweeper? Not really, but it can sweep if it gets enough calm minds off despite it having an average-at-best Sp. Atk stat. Is Giratina-A a hideously bulky wall? Absolutely. Does it have an exploitable recovery that can be stalled out? You betcha. Is it banned for any of these reasons? Bar being a hideously bulky wall, no.
What makes Giratina-A so comparable to Cresselia is the fact that both wall literally everything that can't hit it with a ridiculously powerful STAB(generally an SE hit) or set up on them; and as Grains of Salt said, Cress, much like Giratina-A, grinds all momentum to a halt.
(that 30 minute battle was with me, if I remember correctly) And again, as GoS said, most of its "checks" rely on being at full health with zero status conditions against an unboosted Cress. Heck, most of its checks only 3HKO it and generally sacrifice themselves JUST to bring down cress, or have to set up on it, which(I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet) if Cresselia is running THUNDER WAVE(it still has a free slot) means the check is now crippled for the rest of the game, and cress gets to run away after losing only a chunk of its bulk that it can easily get back later. Anyways, CM isn't the only set Cresselia can run, it can also run some rather aggravating Toxic/Twave Support sets which can completely ruin players thinking to switch in something that was going to stop a sweep, only to find something getting crippled.

Remember folks, we're not just testing to see if Cresselia is/was broken, we're testing to see if it's HEALTHY for the metagame. Not being broken doesn't mean it's healthy.

TL;DR: Cresselia is a fat thing that limits teambuilding(without proper checks you get swept/walled) with no true counters that takes very little effort to slap on a team, and requires about as much skill to use. Its checks can be screwed over easily, and Cress still kills momentum no matter how much you try to keep it from doing so. The current meta is: Opponent sends out Cress, Cress walls something, you scramble to switch to your check, and eitherA: Cress ends up dying and you end up with a 1:1 trade due to the check generally being at around 33% or B: Cress runs away, your check takes enough damage over the battle that it can't check Cresselia anymore. Or C: Cress doesn't ever sweep, but it keeps your offensive momentum from going anywhere because you can't afford to let it set up.
Cresselia is a lot less bulky for Mix and Mega then Giratina is for OU, not to mention the lack of leftovers+lack of wisp. Giratina also was a pressure defogger, a phaser, a status absorber, had several immunities... the comparison isn't all that apt, as the role they run and the metagame they are/may be broken in are far too dissimilar.
Even taking the comparison as is, there are more and better Cresselia checks and counters then there are Giratina answers in OU.
What?! If you want to give Cress Rest you are more than welcome to... You have to option, so don't use it as a comparison.
I beleive he was trying to say that Rest is nearly as reliable of recovery as moonlight, which it sorta is.
Christmas is coming early this year boiis!

The Immortal and scpinion have decided to scrap the idea of rotational ladders, meaning Mix and Mega isn't going anywhere! Rejoice and praise the OM leaders!

Quote by TI below!
Alright! Now we just need a resources thread and a C&C section, and then we'll be set.




Also, a note: keep a lookout for a mix and mega tournament starting in the next few days.
 
#43
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BAN

So, I'll be honest here. I originally actually was going to vote DNB, but after I played this meta I decided that banning Cress is probably best for the metagame. I'm not against stall at all --- in fact I think banning Cress may actually help the stall metagame. However, I do think that Cress has insane bulk [120/170/180], somewhat reliable recovery [moonlight], and decent filler moves [ice beam/moonblast/calm mind/psyshock/shadow ball/toxic]. You probably can go backwards in the thread to see all the calcs that show just how bulky it is.

Also, for the people who voted DNB, you guys came up with some reliable counters and checks. Bug Types can be easily checked by Zapdos and other steels like Doublade. Arceus-Ghost? There are simple checks and counters for that (like even Mimikyu). For things like Kyurem-Black and Regigigas, Cress can opt to run Toxic, which can render those pokemon useless. Then it can easily switchin to a pokemon to take a hit from them (like Skarmory).

I just think Cress is unhealthy for the meta---and not because I'm against stall. I think the tier may become like the later stages of gen 6 OU (hyper-defensive with like one or two wallbreakers), and I certainly don't want to see another meta become like that one. So I'm going to go ahead and vote ban, but feel free to try and convince me to switch.
 
#44
I have to admit, I'm not certain what your getting at, so apologies if this isn't what you were trying to say; if I've misinterpreted your point, let me know so I can remove this. With that being said:
Stall is a legitimate playstyle. It's not one that is very popular, but it's a competitive, skill intensive way of playing that game that just happens to involve slowly wearing down the foe. Being bulky enough to stop a sweep isn't a bad thing; as long as otherwise viable, reasonably reliable, and nonspecific counterplay is available, then there isn't anything wrong with slowing down the game; that's the entire point of stall, or at least most of it. In this case, Cresselia has several multipurpose, reliable counters (Blue Orb Scizor, Arceus Steel, Magearna, Arceus Ghost, Hoopa-U (Can't come on moonblast that often, but nothing comes in on it after it forces out Cress), Refresh+Cm Darkceus), and a great many soft answers (Such as everything spoken of above).
It may very well be unhealthy, but the situation isn't as cut and dried as you seem to be implying.
It's fine if you don't quite understand. I'll explain while replying back to you :)

I never said Stall was illegitimate and I have no qualms with it being used. Hell, I use Stall most of the time myself. It's a fair way to outlast the opponent and whittle their resources. It also forces people to think around the obstacle until either someone attacks a weak point or makes a mistake, making it perfectly skillful along with the ability to maintain said stall core. As someone who incorporates stall in most playstyles, I have absolutely no problem with that principle.

The problem with Cresselia is not that it's a stall-based Pokemon, it's that it's the extreme case of that. Instead of slowing down the opponent, Cresselia stops them instantly and will remain in their way until removed either forcefully or willingly. I can't think of many Pokemon (if any true examples at all) that can do this with as much ease as Cresselia can without trying. I'm fully aware that Cresselia has its checks and counters, but every Pokemon no matter how broken does and that doesn't change the fact that it strictly limits teambuilding because without said checks, you would be locked out of the game because of one Pokemon.

Successfully winning with Stall involves careful teambuilding, synergy, and active responses to be sure that the team will survive and win and I have seen many examples of this done right. Cresselia just so happens to not need any of these and can act as a one-Pokemon win condition because of how hard it is to take down even with the means that you mention. It's possible to beat, but that doesn't make it any less limiting, uncompetitive, or straight-up unfair to deal with.

Stall is an annoyance for opponents that can't break it and requires skill to run it properly; Cresselia doesn't take much skill to use or win with by itself and is nearly impossible to break. That's the key difference.
 

EchoGaia

formerly MaximeLopunny
#45
i think i agree with Ironic Double (kind of), the problem of certain Pokemon (not only Cresselia at that point but also Regigigas and Kyube) is that they sure have checks, but most of them lose to common partners to that specific Pokemon (like sure most Bug types check Cresselia, but they hate Stealth Rock, they most of them hate bulky Flying types, mostly Zapdos, they hate Toxic (except poison and steel ones)). So yeah the problem isn't the Pokemon itself, it's rather the Pokemon and with what partners it can be combined with. For Kyube and Regi you said that Skarmory was a check, but Skarmory doesn't check Kyube at all cause Fusion Bolt is easily able to 2HKO it and everybody knows it's a mandatory move on Kyube, even Pdon struggles vs him and Pdon doesn't have a lousy defense stat. for Regigigas it can still opt to run Thunder Punch to pass Skarmory (and it's not a bad option at all) so there's really only fat Ghost types that stop Regigigas especially when it cannot use Lopunnite.
 
#46

will edit in thoughts on Cress later. atm I'm leaning towards DNB, but I want to play more to see how I feel.
edit: voting Do Not Ban for reasons mainly in the chatlog below. I wouldn't be opposed to a future suspect once stuff like regi kyub etc go, though.

shoutout InfernapeTropius11 for giving me a team but it wasn't mindless enough so I dropped it after ~10 games lol
team I used:
http://pastebin.com/pTZ3VhTM
So I basically wanted to not think while I was laddering, hence triple espeed birdspam. Rockceus checks opposing birds (s/o LaxLapras for beating me with one) and defogs, pdon rocks and phases things which try and get cheeky eg dnite, mmence. could prob run thunder(bolt)>toxic to catch skarms but I only saw one while laddering lol. Manaphy beats phys walls and absolite is fun against various rockers etc, same as always. I don't know why Dnite and Luke are legal but they're rly rly good, this team literally took 5-6 mins to build so it's far from optimal but the concept is there. delaying mevoing on the birds will actually win you a fair few games, esp with dnite. team obviously loses rly hard to psychic terrain but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
replay where someone decided my team was good

edit: had a conversation with IronicDouble about cress and I cba to condense it, chatlogs here
 
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#48
Ayy lmao got reqs

Shoutouts Quantum Tesseract and sin(pi) for making my life so much easier

anyways, Do not ban Cresselia. It's quite good, but I can't say it's utterly broken anymore.

Golisopod's existence really messes with it, since SD + Leech Life = GG Cress.

Also OMG FIRST SUSPECT VOTE AYYY
nice argument you got their fam. Golisopod? Just because that beats it doesn't mean Cress isn't broken. There are many checks and counters to that like Zapdos so uhhh...

Now some people are saying that there are more overpowered pokemon to ban atm. That may be true, but you should really focus on what pokemon is being tested right now. You might miss your opportunity like OU did with Mega-Sab, and have to waste time fixing your mistake. I'm not saying you if you don't ban Cress you are making a mistake, but I don't get why not. Maybe someone give me some more insight?
 

OM room

You lost the game
#49
nice argument you got their fam. Golisopod? Just because that beats it doesn't mean Cress isn't broken. There are many checks and counters to that like Zapdos so uhhh...

Now some people are saying that there are more overpowered pokemon to ban atm. That may be true, but you should really focus on what pokemon is being tested right now. You might miss your opportunity like OU did with Mega-Sab, and have to waste time fixing your mistake. I'm not saying you if you don't ban Cress you are making a mistake, but I don't get why not. Maybe someone give me some more insight?
Eh, if a pokemon is hard countered by one thing, but that pokemon gets countered by another pokemon, but using that logic, you can still go down to the point where everything is countering everything. Therefore that argument doesn't stand. E: The pro-ban argument is weak that's all, maybe add more points? atm the anti-ban argument is super strong, and I don't have the time to pick at it, even though technically necrozma/celesteela would just replace cresselia upon ban ig
 
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