M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #1: Cresselia

#76
So we know that the pro-ban side has said their piece, and I believe the anti-ban side has, too. They're both solid arguments down to their cores. But to just reiterate some of the points from the anti-ban side...

Cresselia can be checked by prominent metagame threats. Soft checks are everywhere, as every team worth its salt has at least one heavy hitter that can boost physically in some fashion. They have always been more common than boosting special sweepers. (Blissey may have had something to do with this...) Hard checks to Cress are much less common (and for good reason; Aerilate spam and the two big honking legendary threats are out there), but people do sometimes like to use Swords Dance Blue Orb Scizor or Golisopod. Those can end a Cress sweep in an instant, even if one of your members has fallen to it, and can proceed to cleanly avenge them. Scizor can even lob Toxic at it without risk, if it wants to catch a Primal Groudon on the switch.
The soft checks, on the other hand, do have to stay relatively healthy (if they get below 50%, Cress beats the majority of these), and this is something that rings true to many metagame threats. If that -ate check gets below 50%, Zygarde and Dragonite can still run over those checks. While we can also make an argument to ban these threats, I don't believe that's wise right now...

One last thing, and this is actually pretty concerning. Magearna isn't just a Cress check. It counters sweeps. And not just Specially based ones, too! I came to this realization after dwelling on the set that M'joe'ra created. Magearna is one of only two users of Heart Swap (that don't suck), and is easily the bulkier of the two. And then I realized that it doesn't just stop Xerneas, Cresselia, and Blissey sweeps. It can run Pinsirite to be mostly immune to the boosting physical sweepers, and give them a taste of their own medicine. I'm not entirely sure that this is healthy for Mix and Mega, and it needs to be looked into with greater detail...

Oh, and yes. Psychic is a real good defensive type in Mix and Mega. Less so since Altarianite is out of the picture, but Dark types are still rare.
 
#77
Voting: Do Not Ban Cresselia.
The defensive spread boosted by Sablenite as well magic bounce and access to calm mind makes cresselia a potent wall however it is not unbeatable. Dark type Mons, specifically users of Gyradosite, can easily inflict status on cresselia and block its access to healing with taunt thereby crippling the pokemon. Additionally many powerful pokemon viable in the tier such as Pheremosa, Ghostium Arceus, Darkarai and Yvetal are able to OHKO one or 2HKO Cresselia. While Cresselia is an extremely bulky pokemon with an excellent defensive ability it's presence helps keep in check the hyper offensive nature of Mix n Mega. Its presence promotes the use of more creative sets and encourages the use of different types of pokemon in the Meta-Game. Because it helps to balance the offensive nature of the meta and encourages creativity I vote to not Ban Sablenite Cresselia.

Coil 3125
Milkbone

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Its best if you take a look at what the pro ban side is arguing and argue your vote from there. Cresselia is not unbeatable. It is countered by things like Golisopod and some Gyaradosite Pokemon. The reason it should be banned is because of how overcentralizing it is bound to become should it remain unbanned. It doesn't just "keep in check the hyper offense." Cresselia makes Hyper Offense useless.

Please tell me how Cresselia "promotes the use of more creative sets and encourages the use of different types of pokemon in the Meta-Game" because I don't see a basis for this at all. It promotes the use of overly specific counters (Golisopod will be a near mandatory option).

I was going to make a full post on this, but LaxLapras summed up my thoughts pretty well.

Pokemon aren't only banned for not having checks/counters. Pokemon are banned because the metagame will be better in the long run with the ban in place.
 
#78
Golisopod is just solid regardless of whether or not Cress is around, it was one of the most common Pokémon I saw on the (no Cress) suspect ladder. Gyaradosite stallbreakers are similarly non-specialized--you'll have to ban a lot more than Cress if you want to get rid of all the fat Magic Bounce users that Gyaradosite users target.

While I admit a lot of the other no-ban posts have been pretty bare bones, distilling down to "it has counters so it's fine," the real argument should be "it has numerous checks that are already common and strong in the metagame." That's the opposite of overcentralizing, really. Blissey is honestly more overcentralizing and I haven't seen any whining about that thing this generation.
 
#79
Laddering was tough.Takes a long time to find a match and lost 7 matches in the 2900s.

My Vote:Ban cress

Though Cresselia has good counters which are capable of putting good work even without Cresselia being present ,it is capable of completely stopping a vast majority of the tier and promotes an unhealthy playstyle. Dark types are less efficient as knock off has just 65 BP in this metagame as most of the pokemons run Mega-Stones and ghost types are not capale of even 2HKOing it with Shadow Ball or shadow claw and Cresselia can just switch out from a shadow force and Never Ending Nightmare can be easily played around by a competent user.Its access to reliable recovery makes it much more reliable and I only see limited situations where Blue Orb is better than Absolite or Lucarionite. Bug types and bulky steels are the only reliable ways to counter Cresselia and that too only some can outlast Cresselia. Physical set-up sweepers can beat Cresselia too but Cresselia will find it self setting up Calm Mind first most of the time as it can set up on almost half ou opponent's team with its extremely high bulk and if it gets to +2 with Calm Mind the boosting physical sweepers will fail to beat it.\\

Slightly off the topic but I feel that Dragonite should be banned as well.It makes the entire play style of offense unviable as u really need Skarmory,Celesteela or Zapdos to counter it which are momentum suckers and unviable in an offensive team.The only ways offensive teams can play around Dragonite is to have a glalite Weavile,Scarf Lele or set up with their Dragonite before the opponent does.It has Multiscale as the Pre-Mega ability to survive even when immensely pressurised and can set up and sweep out prioritizing other priority users.
 

Attachments

#80
To talk about the post above...

Solgaleo. WHY have we not talked about him as much as its lunar counterpart? It should be REALLY good as an -ate check. Cosmic Power stall sets could also work on non-sablenite walls.

Blue Orb Scizor.... is easily the best Cress counter, and by a long shot. Cress does completely nothing, no matter what it runs. The main thing is that Scizor is forced to drop Defog/U-turn to deal with it extremely well. Not the end of the world, but a note.

That Aegislash set is bad. A simple Swords Dance set will do.

This is our first mention of Kyruem-White... Ampharosite Kyruem can also do the job, when the stone is formally released.

In my eyes, the potential problems with allowing Cress isn't that we don't have checks. We have a great deal of them, as seen in this thread. Don't use that it can't be stopped as an argument.
What it does do is force trends into being on its lonesome. Forcing Scizor to drop Defog can be a gamechanger when your -ate check also has to Defog hazards. This can be used to wear it down faster. It also incentivizes offensive boosting, but this was already a popular tactic.

There's much more that it affects, but no single person can track all of the trends it brings. Sometimes it is simply better to ignore them, as a good team will have answers to most anything that pops up, including walls like Cresselia. There will always be that one niche thing that messes up a team (or just Zygarde, but that's another issue), and that's why we need to keep our eyes open here.
 
#81

I'm going to say BAN. It's not broken, but its bulk with sablenite is very annoying and it can't be statused (magic bounce). With moonlight, it can recovery after a toxic, cause not many pokemon can OHKO it. It centralizes the meta, you always need to have a counter pokemon for it and I think the meta would be better without sablenite cress. So that's why I decided to say ban.
 
#83

I'm voting a BAN For suspect Cresselia, and I hope this vote can help it never returning to Mix and Mega. I disgust stall with all my dark heart and this living cancer cell can't escape my wrath of getting this banned (Sorry to be so harsh lol). Anyway, please get this banned, I haven't seen it too much on ladder (I did see alot of Cancerous Sableyenite/Slowbronite Blisseys, which is cancerous as well). Anyway, I'm going to share my team I used to get there (the team is shit tbh).



bubblebutt (Magearna-Original) @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam

katana (Kartana) @ Metagrossite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike
- Night Slash

fat fish (Kyogre-Primal) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Water Spout

crash (Genesect) @ Glalitite
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Techno Blast
- Explosion
- U-turn
- Extreme Speed

doge (Entei) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Return
- Stone Edge

2016girlsbelike (Pheromosa) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- High Jump Kick
- Lunge

no refunds
 
#84
Man... all of the big arguments for both sides have been compiled into one message. Expect to see that mess soon.

As for the team above.. it actually needs only a few changes to really smash stall apart.

-While I personally disagree with Blastoisnite, it's still a decent set. (Though one of the Vensaurite variants would be generally better)
-Give that Katarna Swords Dance.
-Primal Kyogre wants Calm Mind over Water Spout.

...That's it, actually. Hopefully you can break those Blisseys apart!
 
#85
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Ban
Not changing peoples mind at this point, it is very bulky and can boost readily with an effective stab for mix and mega and that will only get worse when the fairy stones are released. I also find it to be unpleasent to both play with and against.

That said it's not as broken as last gen and I wouldn't be too upset if it stayed.
 
#86
Hey,

A lot of votes/reqs were questionable at best, but I did the best I could. We really need a better way to do these suspect tests. However, it was strikingly clear that Cresselia narrowly slips by. Depending on how you look at it the community was roughly 55% in favour of a ban. However, the suspect test was a huge success in terms of turn out. Roughly 35 people voted and even more participated. Pat yourself on the back guys! It's been fun, I'm sure it wont be our last suspect test either :D

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Tagging The Immortal to remove the suspect ladder and unban Cresselia!