M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #1: Cresselia

#1
Suspect 1:1 - Duck Duck Goose

Mix and Mega is suspecting Cresselia!


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Hey,

Cresselia is being suspected tested for its near unrivaled 120/120/130 physical bulk which inconjunction with Sablenite turns Cresselia into an almost unbreakable wall/sweeper. Gaining both Magic bounce and a new stat spread of 120/80/170/95/180/55 it's extremely difficult to reliably 2HKO as it has both (decent)recovery and calm mind. In OU it has plenty of flaws. Psychic typing hurts it tremendously as it's weak to common offensive types like Ghost and Dark. It's left unable to break any of the steel types in OU, Skarmory Whirlwinds it out, Ferrothorn Leech seeds it, Heatran taunts/toxics it and Jirachi flinches it to death. It's so passive that teams never struggle to send in a set up sweeper of their own and beat it. With Sablenite this becomes significantly more difficult. Most of the conventional methods of being Cresselia are completely neutralized by Magic bounce as it can't be Taunted, Poisoned, Leech seeded or phased out. While it's still extremely passive its new bulk allows it to take on threats even after they set up, it is far to bulky. However, it's still passive and does occasionally struggle to sweep teams with desginated answers. Blue Orb makes Moonlight less useful, only recovering 25% and you're often able to beat it 1v1. Steel types are still capable of stomaching hits at +6 and can whittle it down. It comes down to the fact that while Cresselia is almost impossible to break, it's still struggles to sweep teams. It's up to you to decide if its worth keeping in the tier.

While I haven't been able to play much due to work and whatnot, on paper Cresselia is a beast to overcome for a lot of teams. Offensive teams have to be able to 2HKO it somehow so as to not let it set up or stall with Moonlight, even with its lack of PP. Furthermore, it warps a lot of teams to use "non-viable" tactics like Mega Gengar did in Gen 6 (i.e. Shadow Ball on Blissey to not die). I am not saying that means it should be banned, but forcing teams to constantly have at least a dedicated answer + customizing movesets to make sure it cannot lose to it does warrant a suspect at the very least imo.
Cresselia struggles far more than its base stats would suggest. It's basically restricted to Stall and balance, and on both play styles it's pretty much a free switch for hoops, which is a nightmare for both. It's setup bait for steel types, such as Cobalion and Arceus Steel, which Stall also hates dealing with, while blue orb mons like Golisopod pretty much ruin it. Relying on moonlight sucks when they can make it so you only heal 25%, and 8 pp isn't that good either. Even with it around, Stall isn't even all that incredible of a playstyle, and I'd rather not lose it. Personally, I would consider Regigigas the bigger issue at hand right now. Still, I can see the arguments for it, and at the very least it'll let us asses the impact it has on the metagame.


To show of some relevant calcs,

252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 198-237 (44.5 - 53.3%) -- 30.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 135-160 (30.4 - 36%) -- 46.5% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 254-300 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 212-252 (47.7 - 56.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.1% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 316-372 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Galvanize Golem-Alola Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 405-477 (91.2 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. +1 240 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 270-318 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
~~~~~~~~~~~~​

To vote in this suspect test you need to accumulate 3000 COIL on the Mix and Mega ladder where Cresselia will be banned. The B-value is 6.0. There will be no game limit for this suspect test. If you want to calculate the exact number of games a certain GXE requires, go here and replace the word GXE with the numerical GXE you're interested in and click search. To learn more about the COIL system, read Antar's thread here. You can view your COIL by typing /rank into the PS! simulator once the ladder is up and going. Tagging The Immortal to set up the ladder.

This shows how many games you need assuming you have the correct GXE.

Code:
GXE Games
75 - Impossible
76 - 314
77 - 159
78 - 107
79 - 81
80 - 65
81 - 55
82 - 47
83 - 42
84 - 37

If you do reach the required reqs, you'll have two options: Ban or No Ban. If there is a 60% majority in favour of banning Cresselia, it will lose the ability to use Mega Stones.

You need to create a new account for this suspect test and the new account needs to have the correct tag in it.

THE TAG IS: DUCK
Example: If I were to participate, I'd pick the account "Duck of Salt" to obtain reqs.

The suspect test will end at 21.00 GMT +01.00 Two weeks after the date of the ladder goes up. By then you need to have posted in this thread with your requirements.

You will be encouraged to debate intelligently and respectfully amongst each other in this thread about Cresselia and the effect it has on the metagame. You're of course allowed to discuss it in the Other Metas room on PS! as well. Good luck!

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#2
Imo Cresselia isn't actually broken. Moonlight only has 8 PP, and even with max pdef and Sablenite a lot of wallbreakers can still do 40+ and not be even 3HKOd in return and as such can outstall the Moonlights. Cresselia is only good on stall (imo it sucks too much momentum for balance, but it is usable there too ig) and while it does help make stall an actually valid playstyle by providing a decent bulky wincon, it is by no means overpowered. It is piss weak until it gets a few Calm Minds under it's belt. It loses to most SD sweepers, such as Golisopod, Primal Groudon, Kartana, Arceus-Ghost, etc. It also provides a free switch for mons like Hoopa-U, Tyranitar, Lunala, and basically any Steel-type or Psychic-type. Gyaradosite still exists and immensely threatens it. Cresselia is a good mon, nothing more, as it is only really usable on one playstyle, sucks momentum by giving a free switch to many mons, hates status, and has only limited recovery, but its main flaw is that it lacks the strength to 1v1 opposing Pokémon due to it being really weak without boosts.
 
#3
Imo Cresselia isn't actually broken. Moonlight only has 8 PP, and even with max pdef and Sablenite a lot of wallbreakers can still do 40+ and not be even 3HKOd in return and as such can outstall the Moonlights. Cresselia is only good on stall (imo it sucks too much momentum for balance, but it is usable there too ig) and while it does help make stall an actually valid playstyle by providing a decent bulky wincon, it is by no means overpowered. It is piss weak until it gets a few Calm Minds under it's belt. It loses to most SD sweepers, such as Golisopod, Primal Groudon, Kartana, Arceus-Ghost, etc. It also provides a free switch for mons like Hoopa-U, Tyranitar, Lunala, and basically any Steel-type or Psychic-type. Gyaradosite still exists and immensely threatens it. Cresselia is a good mon, nothing more, as it is only really usable on one playstyle, sucks momentum by giving a free switch to many mons, hates status, and has only limited recovery, but its main flaw is that it lacks the strength to 1v1 opposing Pokémon due to it being really weak without boosts.
The problem I see with Cress is that if it gets the opportunity to get more than one calm mind off, Cress goes from a decent(if passive) wall, to a very hard to stop sweeper. Most of the things that beat Cresselia only beat it if they can A: Set up in its face before it gets too many CMs of its own, or B: Brute force it to death, something very few things can do.
T-tar, Lunaala, P-Groudon, Kartana and Hoopa-U aren't even very checks to it, as without boosts, they fail to 2HKO it after a CM, and three of those don't take a +1 Moonblast well at all:

Note: all of these account for released stones only.
252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 134-162 (30.2 - 36.5%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 176-210 (39.7 - 47.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 152-180 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Golisopod X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 194-230 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(gets stalled out due to harsh sunlight's recovery for Cress

252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Most of these at BEST get to trade Cress for whatever they use to counter it. Heck, the list of stuff that Grains of Salt listed assumes that Cresselia has only boosted to +1, and a buch of those either receive the same 2HKO from Moonblast/Psyshock


To me, the real problem with Cress isn't so much its ability to sweep, so much as the fact that it invalidates nearly every physical attacker without the ability to 2HKO it with an SE STAB. I'd be a lot more willing to talk about not banning it once the rest of the stones are released.
 
#4
The problem I see with Cress is that if it gets the opportunity to get more than one calm mind off, Cress goes from a decent(if passive) wall, to a very hard to stop sweeper. Most of the things that beat Cresselia only beat it if they can A: Set up in its face before it gets too many CMs of its own, or B: Brute force it to death, something very few things can do.
T-tar, Lunaala, P-Groudon, Kartana and Hoopa-U aren't even very checks to it, as without boosts, they fail to 2HKO it after a CM, and three of those don't take a +1 Moonblast well at all:

Note: all of these account for released stones only.
252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 134-162 (30.2 - 36.5%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 176-210 (39.7 - 47.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 152-180 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Golisopod X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 194-230 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(gets stalled out due to harsh sunlight's recovery for Cress

252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Most of these at BEST get to trade Cress for whatever they use to counter it. Heck, the list of stuff that Grains of Salt listed assumes that Cresselia has only boosted to +1, and a buch of those either receive the same 2HKO from Moonblast/Psyshock

To me, the real problem with Cress isn't so much its ability to sweep, so much as the fact that it invalidates nearly every physical attacker without the ability to 2HKO it with an SE STAB. I'd be a lot more willing to talk about not banning it once the rest of the stones are released.
Just as a note, you forgot several things, such as a +def nature for Cresselia, precepice blades for Primal Groudon, and most importantly Mega Launcher for Hoopa-U, which allows it to seriously damage. Also of note; Tyranitar/Goli does beat Cress like that, because cress cannot heal. Furthermore, doing 40% to Cresselia even outside of weather is more than enough (unless a special attack) because it's really easy to run it out of moonlights when they have to use 4 between every attack.
 
#6
thdhted said:
The problem I see with Cress is that if it gets the opportunity to get more than one calm mind off, Cress goes from a decent(if passive) wall, to a very hard to stop sweeper. Most of the things that beat Cresselia only beat it if they can A: Set up in its face before it gets too many CMs of its own, or B: Brute force it to death, something very few things can do.
T-tar, Lunaala, P-Groudon, Kartana and Hoopa-U aren't even very checks to it, as without boosts, they fail to 2HKO it after a CM, and three of those don't take a +1 Moonblast well at all:

Note: all of these account for released stones only.
252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 134-162 (30.2 - 36.5%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 176-210 (39.7 - 47.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 152-180 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Golisopod X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 194-230 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(gets stalled out due to harsh sunlight's recovery for Cress

252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Most of these at BEST get to trade Cress for whatever they use to counter it. Heck, the list of stuff that Grains of Salt listed assumes that Cresselia has only boosted to +1, and a buch of those either receive the same 2HKO from Moonblast/Psyshock


To me, the real problem with Cress isn't so much its ability to sweep, so much as the fact that it invalidates nearly every physical attacker without the ability to 2HKO it with an SE STAB. I'd be a lot more willing to talk about not banning it once the rest of the stones are released.
I'm not on either side of the suspect yet, but golisopod Should always be able to beat cresselia because it can deal nearly 50% with leech life and heal off all the damage cresselia deals to it, thanks to cress's huge health. Even if you switch into a second calm mind, it will outspeed you but it still can't do too much:

+2 0 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Blue Orb Golisopod: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Blue Orb Golisopod: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO

And then you heal back about 100 health if golisopod can deal 45% damage. Don't forget blue orb ruins cresselia's moonlight.
 
#7
The problem I see with Cress is that if it gets the opportunity to get more than one calm mind off, Cress goes from a decent(if passive) wall, to a very hard to stop sweeper. Most of the things that beat Cresselia only beat it if they can A: Set up in its face before it gets too many CMs of its own, or B: Brute force it to death, something very few things can do.
T-tar, Lunaala, P-Groudon, Kartana and Hoopa-U aren't even very checks to it, as without boosts, they fail to 2HKO it after a CM, and three of those don't take a +1 Moonblast well at all:

Note: all of these account for released stones only.
252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 134-162 (30.2 - 36.5%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 176-210 (39.7 - 47.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 152-180 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Golisopod X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 194-230 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(gets stalled out due to harsh sunlight's recovery for Cress

252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Most of these at BEST get to trade Cress for whatever they use to counter it. Heck, the list of stuff that Grains of Salt listed assumes that Cresselia has only boosted to +1, and a buch of those either receive the same 2HKO from Moonblast/Psyshock


To me, the real problem with Cress isn't so much its ability to sweep, so much as the fact that it invalidates nearly every physical attacker without the ability to 2HKO it with an SE STAB. I'd be a lot more willing to talk about not banning it once the rest of the stones are released.
Lunala clicks CM and boosts alongside Cress, eventually winning the CM war iirc. TTar can click DDance and 2HKO. Hoopa-U can use Blastoisinite to do 1.5x that or go physical with Hyperspace Fury. Golisopod has Leech Life, and can boost with SD as well. PDon has PBlades and can always click SD again lol. Regi forces it to use more Moonlights than it wants to, as it has to use Moonlight like 3 out of every 4 turns. If they start with decent HP and switch in on Cress immediately, they all win. And stall doesn't particularly like switching in on any of these either.
 
#8
Hi. Most of the attention for Cresselia seems to have been for Sablenite, and for good reason, but I wonder if its overall best bulk option might not be Aggronite. Yes, it would only gain +20 to its SpDef instead of +50, but Psychic/Steel resists a hell of a lot more things than pure Psychic does. The added Fire and Ground weaknesses aren't fun, but they would be filtered by Filter, and the Bug weakness would be neutralized. Burning is still a possibility, but the damage from that was also nerfed this generation.

One more thing that can break through Cress at least with Sablenite, in case it gets overlooked: Banded Heracross, especially Guts variant. I think someone found in last generation's Mix&Mega Cress-suspect that it can very reliably OHKO with Megahorn -- not 100% of the time, but near it.

Just $0.02 (for some value of 2)
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#9
Ok got reqs finally (still saw no mega teams on high ladder....) and will leave my thoughts...

Capture.JPG

Capture 2.JPG




So I adamantly opposed Cresselia's presence on the meta from the getgo and I wanted to see the meta without its presence with this suspect. To be honest, I found that the meta was much more healthier without the presence of this defensive behemoth due to the fact that I did not have to allot at least 2 slots on my team towards dealing with this threat. Now I understand that its not hitting that hard with its 95 Special Attack and it is possible to abuse the low PP and restrictions from its recovery in Moonlight, but the important factor to me that makes it still too difficult to deal with is that it truly can not be 2HKOed by most neutral attacks from even the most strongest hitters in the meta. This is important as it allows Cresselia to setup a Toxic or Substitute and now gives it such a huge advantage in the matchup. This process could be repeated throughout the whole match and is the reason why I believe Cresselia should be banned due to the fact upon how it really rewards the Cresselia player too much from making even the most simplest of plays. This hurts the meta due to how centralizes it becomes on gaining the advantage over Cress (which is admittedly pretty hard) and is why the meta would be much better with the stupid duck gone imo.

Ban Cresselia
 

Attachments

#10
https://gyazo.com/913759343dfc9f78b8ea64f7aeb56c88 reqs
shoutout to zephyr for basically being my only opponent... we must have played 10 games lol. it was close tho, i think we both won the same amount haha

anyway i've reevaluated cress. i stand by what i said before about it not being broken in the current meta, but unfortunately it is the first suspect, so i'm gonna vote BAN bcz i think it's bulk will be too good once the other broken shit is banned and i doubt it will get another suspect. i also don't think the meta without it is healthier bcz there's too much broken stuff (gigas, kyub, mana, pheromosa, gene, dnite, kartana etc. [btw that's the approximate order i think they're broken in and what i would recommend for suspect order]) but the meta in six months will appreciate it not being a thing so that's why i'm voting ban. duck you gos, getting 3k coil was a Never Ending Nightmare :^) (ghostceus is rly good btw js, checks regi and pheromosa and has brilliant offensive presence)
 

King Wynaut

te occidere possunt sed te edere non possunt nefas est
is a Tiering Contributor
#11
Do reqs for this suspect count towards TC?

The Immortal says: No
 
Last edited by a moderator:

EchoGaia

formerly MaximeLopunny
#12
http://www.cjoint.com/c/FLqro1FDoCC

Requirements for the suspect test.

Concerning Cresselia, with its ban, i saw more offensive teams running over the ladder and less pokemon specifically used to check Cresselia. I would personally say BAN cause Cresselia makes the metagame unhealthy, even if there are some offensive behemoths that should be looked into such as Kyurem Black and Regigigas but also Pheromosa and Kartana that would maybe become to hard to handle, with few walls capable of handleing them, with Cresselia gone.

But Cresselia was a pain in the ass to deal with, and even if its main drawback was Moonlight and its few PP (that by the way Tyranitar nerfs so it decently checked it but Cresselia could use Red Orb users to heal even more with Moonlight, not to mention with Sablenite it also bounced Taunt and status)

So basically: A BAN for the Moon Pokemon of DPP.

Towards what GOS just said, i'm a little sad about Sun and Moon not keeping all the stones in the game. This way the meta has lost a bit of its versality, as you find rather always the same stones used (Lucarionite, Metagrossite, Pinsirite, Glalitite, Orbs and Venusaurite being the most used). This unfortunate feature also made players think about playing Ubers Pokemon which is probably a nice thing too.

But in a whole, i'm a bit disappointed by Gen 7 Mix and Mega, sometimes Gen 6 was funnier.
 
#13

Ban
It's not broken in the current metagame, you can see the list of things that's broken in IT11's post which I personally agree with. However, even if it's not broken in the current metagame, this is the first suspect and as mentioned, it might be the only suspect for Cresselia. While it isn't broken right now, it certainly will be broken if allowed to remain in Mix and Mega while larger offensive threats that beat it are suspected and banned. In addition, I can see people opposing a Genesect suspect or other mons in the future if Cresselia is allowed, simply because if Cresselia is allowed then people will use the argument "x checks Cress" to keep it allowed.

Duck my W/L ratio and duck hax, would've gotten reqs quicker if it hadn't been for hax and tilting.

InfernapeTropius11 <3
VoltDarkrai: hope u tilt
duck you gos: FUCK OFF

s/o Quantum Tesseract for the team, it's boss
 
#14
what are you doing using an arceus fire without recover durza

SO. 2 teams, 2 tries. 1 weakened and shriveled point to it all. The struggle was more than 100 games, more than a fair few losses, me trying to make a broken team actually WORK against good people (somehow I couldn't, and deleted the team out of rage), and so much information about mono-attacking Hippowdon that I don't know what to do with it. This was this suspect.

https://gyazo.com/9df0d6167afc5a1538b1d399d6e7d90e

And I STILL made reqs. (I'm Zephyr Duckgon on that list)

As for my vote on Cresselia... I Abstain my vote for the moment.... Is what I WOULD be saying, without knowing what it all really meant. But now, having gleamed through the power of science... would like to Not Ban Cresselia.

Yes. I know. Cresselia is a defensive bulwark. But take a gander at this... I found the answers to my own questions.
Take a gander at these calcs... they're pretty convincing:

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamancite Gyarados Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Cresselia: 180-213 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Scizor X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Cresselia: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Sablenite Cresselia Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamancite Gyarados: 67-79 (20.2 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Sablenite Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamancite Gyarados: 61-72 (18.4 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+1 0 SpA Sablenite Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blue Orb Scizor: 62-73 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO
+1 0 SpA Sablenite Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blue Orb Scizor: 49-58 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

As it turns out, bulky Salamancite Gyarados eats Cresselia alive. And Blue Orb Scizor doesn't even break a sweat, even if Cress is up to +3. There's more answers than that saturated around, even when Kyruem Black and Regigigas lose their stones. This meta has incredible creativity when it comes to constructing answers to threats, and the less broken a threat is, the more answers something has. For Cresselia, I won't be surprised if that is in the hundereds. I'd just like to say... You don't need two teamslots to deal with this, when you can use one AND get something extremely versatile in the process. Ahem. Now on to the part of the post I did not edit.

But yes. My other (since I have a message and a tilt in the Cress suspect now) purpose for coming this far is to tell you all some vital information. Infromation about the future of Mix and Mega. And I'll do it anyways, even though Grains of Salt clearly knows by now. But I'm making sure everyone gets the message in a public environment.
The bans in place now are clearly not enough.
I don't want anyone, much less newbies, facing monsters such as Glalite Kyruem Black or Pinsirite/Altarianite Genesect. They'll probably become extremely frustrated with the state of the unbalanced metagame. But just this won't be enough... let me explain HOW these monsters ruin our day. Each and every one of them that I find problematic. We'll need to touch on most of these pretty fast.

Kyruem-Black: This is problemo uno. The Big Cheese. Beatdown itself. Sporting an incredible Base 170 Attack, and incredible bulk to go along with it, Kyruem is outfitted to destroy worlds with a Mega Stone. (Even without one, it still has Freeze Shock. That is a signature move, remember, and it can be used to devastating effect in OU sometimes...) While the natural choice is Glalite for a STAB that takes less than two turns, it can also run Charizardite X, Pinsirite, Altarianite, and a wide host of other ones. All while hitting walls for obscene damage. Ban this thing from Mega Stones, please...

Regigigas: You have a Slow Start no longer... but I wish it did. Nearly as much power as Kyruem, is faster, and has a wide variety of punches. This titan can stand up to nearly everything, and smash it to pieces with a Return or a punch. It can even boost with Power-Up Punch. Again, the bulk is too dumb for what it does.

Genesect: This is an issue of a different breed. And one we've dealt with before. Pinsirite was actually the best set all along, imo. But this one is a wallbreaker and a revenger in one nasty package. Extreme Speed and Techno Blast combine into a crazy combination that is very hard to wall. And it can U-Turn if anything gets too hairy. Download just makes these problems worse, and elevates them to a sweeping level of threatening. This needs to be banned again.

Pheromosa: A newer threat, but one that is up there with the titans, nonetheless. At first glance, the non-existent bulk might balance this bug. But that goes out of the window when you give it the option to play off of its strengths even better. In this case, it's Mega Stones. Lucarionite makes the kicks and U-turns of this beauty hyper-powered, and it's pretty easy to get swept by this when your priority is out of the picture. If you have all of your team with priority, well... you might have bigger issues.

Dragonite: While less concerning than the examples above, this is still a major Extreme Speeder. It also has Multiscale, and respectable bulk of its own paired with awesome power and a ton of moves to us it with, and there's not many situations where Dragonite doesn't do at least something. It can also run a myriad of different stones to surprise the opponent.

Zygarde can be lumped in here, too, as it acts pretty similarly to Dragonite, minus the sheer versatility, but can also utilize the incredibly powerful Thousand moves, which can either give Zygarde perfect neutral coverage or trap an enemy, which you can then deal with at your own pace...

Manaphy: This is also powerful. Maybe too much for walls and offense alike. It lost Sceptilite, but it still has the other stone... meaning it's a potent sweeper that's still worth looking into a suspect for. I expect to see a ton of arguments about the power of Manaphy...

That's it for now. There's also Lucario, but this post is too long as is. Happy battling!
 
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#16
We hosted a fairly spontaneous suspect tour for the daily today, the winner would automatically receive reqs. It was fun to watch people fight it out since the tournament almost doubled in size after the reqs bonus was announced. Probably should've known there was a tour earlier but a lot of people were on anyways, I'll schedule it in advance next time - although it's only one vote out of dozens! Also, don't forget to fill out the survey!

The winner of the first suspect tour was @Fardin! Congratulations to him!
 
#17
About the Suspect test and my opinions.I don't really play much MnM tbh, but even a nuub like me would know that something with 120/170/170 defensive stats is just broken. Originally I was against the ban, but after seeing some of the calcs and points made in this thread, I changed my mind. the amount of stuff this thing just walls and can set up on is incredibly. Some people said that its quite overrated because of how weak it is to common types such as Dark and Bug, but that's what teammates are for..to cover up each other weaknesses. it also forces people to prepare for it and have at least 1 hardcore ct against it, which can really restrict teambuilding, and overall make it less fun. Also...once MnM gets rid off all the broken offensive mons that are still allowed rn, cress will be even more overpowered then it is right now and prob get a quick ban after a while or another suspect test.
(it also encourages more players to build a stall around it, which I'm sure none of us want :] )
i vote for a ban!.
 
#18
Hi, just gonna show the team I've been using since the Suspect dropped.

This team is extremely effective if played right. I hold the most wins on suspect ladder by far, but some misplays from laddering at 3 AM have cost me enough losses to make getting that 3000 coil.

Here are some reviews of this team by quality users after I beat them!

WALL OF SHAME:
(After I beat him for the third time) Quantum Tesseract: cteam
InfernapeTropius11: cteam
Zephyr Dragon Lord: nice cteam (disclaimer, he did beat me a few times)
(Somewhere in between my 10 times beating him lol) gmfc: cteam
Duck Impersonator (shall not reveal identity because probably hiding in shame after losing to me so many times): fuckin cteam

(In before gos gets mad at me for that)

Well as you can see, this team is good. Also I can't make cteams for 5 different teams of good people on ladder.

So now that we are finished with the wall of shame, lets get to the team:


Xerneas @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt

ScarfXern is one of the best mons in the meta at the current state. Outspeeds most of the mons in the tier, and destroys the Dark, Fighting, and Dragon Populations (Dnite, Weavile, Zygarde, etc.).

OHKO's a non-specially defensive Lucarionite Kartana, which on paper is a good counter, yet the speed tier proves otherwise.


Regigigas @ Pinsirite
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Retaliate / Crush Grip
- Return
- Drain Punch
- Rock Slide

Revenge killer, Speedy sweeper, fast power. That is Regigigas in a nutshell. Running Pinsirite because of ghost type mons such as Ghostceus, Giratina, and Hoopa-C. Immune to ground which is good for switch ins, and flying typing makes fighting neutral. Drain punch for weavile and others, especially when low on HP. Rock slide for other flying types, and tough walls like Zapdos.


Arceus-Fire @ Flame Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA OR 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Mild or Calm Nature
- Judgement
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder
- Earth Power

Okay, hold up. I know you're skeptical. But just look at some calcs.
252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fire: 89-105 (20 - 23.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fire: 66-78 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fire: 63-75 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fire: 81-96 (18.2 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fire: 34-41 (7.6 - 9.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Frustration vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fire: 88-104 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fire in Harsh Sun: 76-90 (17.1 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Arceus-Fire is the ultimate switch in. It can take so many things with ease, and then kill them, or even better, lure:
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 224-264 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 2344-2764 (901.5 - 1063%) -- guaranteed OHKO (lol gotem)
252+ SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 558-656 (198.5 - 233.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But you see a fire arceus, and then say, okay, I'll send in my blue orb mon.
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blue Orb Golisopod: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blue Orb Golisopod: 184-218 (63.2 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blue Orb Golisopod: 184-218 (63.2 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (easy espeed kill after)
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Blue Orb Skarmory: 532-628 (311.1 - 367.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 166-196 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This thing is a MONSTER.


Kyurem-Black @ Glalitite
Ability: Teravolt
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Frustration
- Roost
- Outrage

A great coverage mon, brings huge power and with Fusion Bolt and Frustration it will hit every typing at least for neutral damage. That base 210 Attack with boost from the Mega Stone is insane. Can OHKO Mimikyu before evolution as well, which is helpful.


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Precipice Blades
- Lava Plume
- Roar
My rocks setter and usual lead, Pdon is a staple of the meta that in my opinion no team can not have.


Dragonite @ Salamencite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake

Another new sweeper unbanned in gen 7, Dragonite is a mon that has the advantage to always get a setup due to Multiscale before evolution, except in the case of rocks. Espeed gets Aerealate stab and +2 Priority. Return gives huge damage and at +1 can OHKO or 2HKO most of the mons in the meta. If you are lucky enough to get 2 Dragon Dances off you are likely to win the game.

So thats my team. It isn't perfect, and particularly weak to stall, but it works. And it works pretty damn well.
I'll call a duck a duck, as it were. You'll not that the moment it makes contact with a defensive core it goes down in a 6-0 :p.
Sure Ice isn't a stellar defensive typing but Dragon is, and it can set up Sub on bulky mons (e.g. Zapdos, Blissey) and recover with Roost. You also neglect to consider that Ice is a FANTASTIC offensive typing, and Kyu-B gets 210 attack, with 102 BP before Refrigerate and STAB, and that it has Fusion Bolt for bulky waters. Earth Power is also a very viable coverage move for Kyu-B as it has 160 special attack, which is great, and hurts some of its checks, such as Magearna and Raikou.

Genesect is so banworthy wtf? PDon and Hippo HATE Techno Blast, Celesteela loses to Thunder, it has Exlosion as a nuke button, nothing has changed since last gen, it's so good as a revenge killer?
Chiming in to agree on this. While IMO SubRoost with Return+Fusion Bolt is the best set, they are far from Kyube's only options to use. It's difficult to 1v1, and harder to switch into. About the only real mitigating factor is that it isn't fast enough, but 115 isn't slow by any means.

Just going to chime in that while Gene is great/borked, it's not nearly so bad as last gen. It has 1 stone instead of two, weaker -ate, Zapdos is common, more -ate competition from DNite and etc... while last gen you would have to be stupid not to use it, it's just obscenely good.



So, of course, onto the main event.
upload_2016-12-16_19-34-13.png

As I said at the start, Cresselia has a lot of issues:
A bit late on this, but I personally wouldn't have recommended the suspect. Cresselia struggles far more than its base stats would suggest. It's basically restricted to Stall and balance, and on both play styles it's pretty much a free switch for hoops, which is a nightmare for both. It's setup bait for steel types, such as Cobalion and Arceus Steel, which Stall also hates dealing with, while blue orb mons like Golisopod pretty much ruin it. Relying on moonlight sucks when they can make it so you only heal 25%, and 8 pp isn't that good either. Even with it around, Stall isn't even all that incredible of a playstyle, and I'd rather not lose it. Personally, I would consider Regigigas the bigger issue at hand right now. Still, I can see the arguments for it, and at the very least it'll let us asses the impact it has on the metagame.
On paper, it might seem like an amazing mon, but in practice it runs into a few more issues. Its typing and stats make it bait for Hoopa-U, which is something stall cannot afford. It cant beat steel types. It cant beat Blue Orb. Pokemon like Tyranitar and Arceus-Ghost eat it for breakfast. With that being said, not everything is bad for Cresselia; it is insanely bulky, great at blocking hazards, and quite splashable. However, I firmly believe it is not broken, overcentralizing, or even the source of real or lasting negative effects on the metagame. Thus, Do Not Ban.
 
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MacChaeger

i'm gonna pyuk
is a Pre-Contributor
#19
About the Suspect test and my opinions.I don't really play much MnM tbh, but even a nuub like me would know that something with 120/170/170 defensive stats is just broken. Originally I was against the ban, but after seeing some of the calcs and points made in this thread, I changed my mind. the amount of stuff this thing just walls and can set up on is incredibly. Some people said that its quite overrated because of how weak it is to common types such as Dark and Bug, but that's what teammates are for..to cover up each other weaknesses. it also forces people to prepare for it and have at least 1 hardcore ct against it, which can really restrict teambuilding, and overall make it less fun. Also...once MnM gets rid off all the broken offensive mons that are still allowed rn, cress will be even more overpowered then it is right now and prob get a quick ban after a while or another suspect test.
(it also encourages more players to build a stall around it, which I'm sure none of us want :] )
i vote for a ban!.
You can't vote in the suspect unless you earned 3000 coil on the suspect ladder with an alt that has the word "duck" in the name, although I feel like that last part shouldn't be necessary, since the suspect ladder is a different ladder from the main one as far as ranks are concerned.
 
#20
You can't vote in the suspect unless you earned 3000 coil on the suspect ladder with an alt that has the word "duck" in the name, although I feel like that last part shouldn't be necessary, since the suspect ladder is a different ladder from the main one as far as ranks are concerned.
We hosted a fairly spontaneous suspect tour for the daily today, the winner would automatically receive reqs. It was fun to watch people fight it out since the tournament almost doubled in size after the reqs bonus was announced. Probably should've known there was a tour earlier but a lot of people were on anyways, I'll schedule it in advance next time - although it's only one vote out of dozens! Also, don't forget to fill out the survey!
The winner of the first suspect tour was @Fardin! Congratulations to him!
I do agree that the duck part shouldn't be necessary, though.

Also, just so this post isn't a one-liner... How's Gengarite doing in the current meta? Back in Gen 6, it was good but I personally feel like the new metagame isn't too kind to it with fast hard hitting threats running around like Dnite, Genesect and other things.
 
#21
I'm looking at the big picture here. We're going to get all of those stones eventually, and I am well prepared for that day. Ampharosite mons have more trouble against Cress anyways due to also being Dragons... meaning they can now get donked by Moonblast harder.
(As a side note, Pinsirite Cobalion can handle both Katarna and Pheromosa depending on the set... Phero gets splatted by Quick Attack, and Katarna's best option is a neutral Sacred Sword, which will be responded to by a SE Close Combat... the defense drops of which are convinently ignored. ....Cobalion is just too good. Loses hardcore to Xurkitree, though)

And yes, I AM assuming all of these crazy threats are gone and out of here, as they should be. We have plenty of scary sweepers as is. I have a series of questions for you to probe Cress being enough to halt some of the greatest threats out there...

Is Cress able to 1v1 Salamancite Gyarados? What about with Substitute in the Gyara? Does bulky versus speedy spread make a difference?
Can Cress handle the Primals? How about if they're also boosting sets?
Can Cress deal with Red Orb Raikou? (I'm thinking this is a yes..)
Can Cress take the likes of Pinsirite Cobalion, Metagross, and Klinklang?
Can Cresselia keep a sweep in front of a Blue Orb Scizor? (Probably a big no for this one)
How many Calm Minds does Cress need before it can take on Pidgeotite Gengar? How much can Mega Gengar do to Cress with a Shadow Ball?
How much do the -ate speeders do to Cress with their attacks? Can Entei or Arcanine run Cress out of Moonlights?
Can Blissey win a stall war with Cress?

And most importantly... are the current answers we have enough to keep this balanced? And with that, I'm out. Hopefully this long-term evaluation helps you think about all of your decisions with more clarity. And don't use Cresselia as a dang argument to keep Genesect. I'll personally rap on you if that happens..
i just wanted to point out, why does everyone think we are getting the stones soon? volcanion wasnt even released until a generation after it was found in the games code, and the main selling point of the sun and moon games are the new mechanic of z-moves. I find it highly unlikely that game freak will release all the mega stones in the future of this generation.

edit: didnt wanna double post so here are my reqs, http://imgur.com/a/ipiXC

voting NO ban

i dont believe cresselia is broken, as if its banned i believe other mons with similar traits in being hard to break can rise up and take its place, for example blissey.
 
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MacChaeger

i'm gonna pyuk
is a Pre-Contributor
#22
I do agree that the duck part shouldn't be necessary, though.

Also, just so this post isn't a one-liner... How's Gengarite doing in the current meta? Back in Gen 6, it was good but I personally feel like the new metagame isn't too kind to it with fast hard hitting threats running around like Dnite, Genesect and other things.
Oops.

If I may, I have to say that the ban reasoning in half of these posts is kinda terrible. I'm seeing a lot of people voting to ban it based on the assumptions that a) there are a lot of broken Pokémon in the current meta that check/counter Cresselia, and that these Pokémon will be banned in subsequent suspects, thus breaking Cresselia (these people freely admit that it actually isn't broken at the moment), and b) that Cresselia will never get suspected again if it doesn't get banned this time. The first is borderline inadmissible, as it amounts to nothing but theorymonning and using the Gen 6 meta to justify Gen 7 bans. As for the second, I think it would be very beneficial if Grains of Salt either confirmed or denied the notion that Cresselia won't ever see another suspect if it survives this one.
 
#23
I'm looking at the big picture here. We're going to get all of those stones eventually, and I am well prepared for that day. Ampharosite mons have more trouble against Cress anyways due to also being Dragons... meaning they can now get donked by Moonblast harder.
(As a side note, Pinsirite Cobalion can handle both Katarna and Pheromosa depending on the set... Phero gets splatted by Quick Attack, and Katarna's best option is a neutral Sacred Sword, which will be responded to by a SE Close Combat... the defense drops of which are convinently ignored. ....Cobalion is just too good. Loses hardcore to Xurkitree, though)

And yes, I AM assuming all of these crazy threats are gone and out of here, as they should be. We have plenty of scary sweepers as is. I have a series of questions for you to probe Cress being enough to halt some of the greatest threats out there...

Is Cress able to 1v1 Salamancite Gyarados? What about with Substitute in the Gyara? Does bulky versus speedy spread make a difference?
Can Cress handle the Primals? How about if they're also boosting sets?
Can Cress deal with Red Orb Raikou? (I'm thinking this is a yes..)
Can Cress take the likes of Pinsirite Cobalion, Metagross, and Klinklang?
Can Cresselia keep a sweep in front of a Blue Orb Scizor? (Probably a big no for this one)
How many Calm Minds does Cress need before it can take on Pidgeotite Gengar? How much can Mega Gengar do to Cress with a Shadow Ball?
How much do the -ate speeders do to Cress with their attacks? Can Entei or Arcanine run Cress out of Moonlights?
Can Blissey win a stall war with Cress?

And most importantly... are the current answers we have enough to keep this balanced? And with that, I'm out. Hopefully this long-term evaluation helps you think about all of your decisions with more clarity. And don't use Cresselia as a dang argument to keep Genesect. I'll personally rap on you if that happens..
What the metagame might look like in the future doesn't matter. If a bunch of Cresselia answers get released, we might resuspect, but you should be judging based on the current metagame rather than theorymonning.
Oops.

If I may, I have to say that the ban reasoning in half of these posts is kinda terrible. I'm seeing a lot of people voting to ban it based on the assumptions that a) there are a lot of broken Pokémon in the current meta that check/counter Cresselia, and that these Pokémon will be banned in subsequent suspects, thus breaking Cresselia (these people freely admit that it actually isn't broken at the moment), and b) that Cresselia will never get suspected again if it doesn't get banned this time. The first is borderline inadmissible, as it amounts to nothing but theorymonning and using the Gen 6 meta to justify Gen 7 bans. As for the second, I think it would be very beneficial if Grains of Salt either confirmed or denied the notion that Cresselia won't ever see another suspect if it survives this one.
If Cresselia is not banned here, and becomes broken later, we aren't going to be stupid and refuse to suspect again; the only reason for denying a second suspect would be if nothing/not enough has changed as it invalidates the work spent on the previous ones. If Cresselia doesn't get banned, it'll probably be a while before it comes up again because other priorities, but that's not a way of saying the chance will be gone.
 
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#24


Vote: DO NOT BAN

Reasoning: There is no doubt that Cresselia is a monster in her own right. A god tier tank that reigns supreme over many of the uber walls, due to her having access to calm mind, moonlight, and the fact that she's prominently used with sablenite. This suspect test isn't a matter of "if" but rather "when". That being said, I feel it's not her time, so I'm voting to not ban for mainly two reasons: The current meta is grossly hyperoffensive, many of which easily 3hko-2hko her. And while calm mind is great, it doesn't help much against physical behemoths such as kyu-b, who almost disregards her offensive potential. Also moonlight is not the most reliable recovery move and often leaves her without any options when she's in stall situations. However, i think this says more about how bork other mons at the moment are rather than Cress's bulk. Secondly, I feel banning Cresselia will only give rise to Blissey, which, while not too difficult to deal with, is certainly more of a nuisance than Cress.

 
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#25
upload_2016-12-17_19-7-7.png


VOTE: DO NOT BAN

Reasons: Cresselia is a good pokemon and is defenetly a good tank in this mix and mega tier. Even tho it is annoying to face, Cresselia is defenetly not broken like some people say. There are few pokemons in the meta that can deal with it. I do understand that most pokemons that deals with Cresselia are broken, but if we had to ban a pokemon in this meta, Cresselia would defenetly not the pokemon that should go(lose the ability to have a mega stone), because there are other more broken mons in this meta.

#Ban Blissey instead!!!