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Necturna (OU Analysis) [DONE]

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Korski, May 8, 2012.

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  1. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    <h2>Overview</h2>

    <p>This is Necturna, the adorable little flower with the ability to learn Sketch once, and only once, to obtain any one move that she could not learn otherwise. Shell Smash? Spore? Necturna can do it all, making her one of the most feared Pokemon in existence. Her base 120 Attack stat gives her the strongest Power Whip in the game and allows her to take advantage of powerful physical coverage moves such as Close Combat and Sacred Fire. Defensively, Necturna's 64/100/120 defenses make OHKOing her a difficult test, especially with invested defenses, making Necturna a capable special wall and spinblocker, with access to Horn Leech, Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split, Toxic Spikes, and moves like Rapid Spin or Recover via Sketch.</p>

    <p>While the power of a single Sketch move is incredible, Necturna can still run into real problems depending on her set; her Grass/Ghost typing and shallow non-Sketch offensive movepool are walled by many common Steel-types like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, along with bulky Dragon-types like Dragonite and Salamence who can take an unboosted Shadow Claw fairly easily. Her low base 81 Speed puts her at a disadvantage in the fast BW OU metagame, so setting up can be difficult, especially considering her Dark, Ghost, Fire, Flying, Ice, and Poison weaknesses and susceptibility to all forms of status and passive damage. With coverage options limited to Hidden Power and Stone Edge, offensive Necturna are defined by their "move of choice," making them easier to deal with once an opponent discovers the Sketch move.</p>

    <script language="JavaScript">
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    set.name = "Shell Smash";
    set.move[1] = "Shell Smash";
    set.move[2] = ["Power Whip", "Horn Leech"];
    set.move[3] = "Shadow Claw";
    set.move[4] = ["Hidden Power Fire", "Hidden Power Fighting"];
    set.item = "Life Orb";
    set.ability = "Forewarn";
    set.nature = ["Naughty"];
    set.evs.Atk = 252;
    set.evs.SpA = 4;
    set.evs.Spe = 252;
    document.write(composeSet(set));
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    <p>Shell Smash is the single most powerful setup move in the game, able to boost Necturna's Attack stat to frighteningly high levels, while at the same time raising her Speed and Special Attack stats. Power Whip is a devastating STAB attack at +2 with its high Base Power, while Horn Leech is a decent alternative for its superior accuracy and for offsetting Life Orb recoil. Shadow Claw is her strongest Ghost-type STAB attack, but at only 70 Base Power, it is primarily used to take care of weakened opponents or to OHKO Celebi, Latias, and Latios, 2HKO Jirachi and Metagross, and OHKO Dragonite and Salamence after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Fire is the ideal choice for the fourth slot, as with the boosts provided by Shell Smash and Life Orb, it can OHKO Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, and physically defensive Skarmory. However, the move is laughably weak under rain and leaves Necturna open to Hydreigon and Heatran, so Hidden Power Fighting can be used instead, as it retains neutral or better coverage against all Steel-types.</p>

    <p>The given EVs, along with a Naughty nature and Life Orb, allow Necturna to OHKO Ferrothorn and Gliscor and 2HKO Jirachi after a Shell Smash. The Speed EVs enable Necturna to outpace Modest Heatran before a boost, and Modest Chlorophyll Venusaur and Jolly Choice Scarf Terrakion after a boost. Alternatively, a White Herb may be used to restore Necturna's defenses after a boost, but the drop in power without Life Orb is significant, as you lose out on the aforementioned KOs.</p>

    <p>The omnipresence of Steel-types, along with Necturna's weakness to passive damage and disappointing coverage moves, prevents her from reliably sweeping without the right kind of support. Dugtrio and Magnezone can trap and remove these threats; Dugtrio can revenge kill Heatran, weakened Jirachi, and weakened Metagross lacking Bullet Punch, while Magnezone has a fairly easy time against Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor. Heatran itself is a good teammate, as it can quite easily force out nearly all Steel-types in OU who would threaten Necturna while luring in bulky Water-types that Necturna can switch in on and threaten to KO or set up. Other good teammates include Vaporeon, as it can counter Heatran fairly well and pass huge Wishes to heal Necturna. Finally, this build appreciates entry hazards for netting key KOs, so teammates like Deoxys-D and Skarmory are good choices as well.</p>

    <script language="JavaScript">
    var set = new CAPSet();
    set.name = "Choice Band";
    set.move[1] = "Power Whip";
    set.move[2] = "Shadow Sneak";
    set.move[3] = ["Sacred Fire", "V-create"];
    set.move[4] = "Stone Edge";
    set.item = "Choice Band";
    set.ability = "Forewarn";
    set.nature = "Jolly";
    set.evs.HP = 4;
    set.evs.Atk = 252;
    set.evs.Spe = 252;
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    <p>While Sketch grants Necturna access to such powerful setup moves as Shell Smash or Quiver Dance, it can also be used to access incredibly powerful coverage moves such as Sacred Fire or V-create. With a Choice Band equipped, Necturna reaches a 508 Attack stat with a Jolly nature, and with tricky Grass/Ghost/Fire/Rock coverage, she can be very difficult to switch into. Power Whip is the STAB move of choice, capable of 2HKOing Latios and Hydreigon with Stealth Rock support. Shadow Sneak is a useful priority move which lets Necturna double as a revenge killer, picking off weakened Pokemon and frail sweepers like Alakazam. Sacred Fire is a powerful attacking move that hits Steel-types that doubles as an excellent utility move for its 50% chance to burn the opponent. Alternatively, V-create has much more immediate power&mdash;enough to OHKO Skarmory&mdash;but its side effects are crippling compared to Sacred Fire. Lastly, Stone Edge is Necturna's only real extra physical coverage, catching threats such as Dragonite and Salamence off-guard.</p>

    <p>Necturna's base 81 Speed is middling, to say the least, so maximum Speed and Attack are both essential. A Jolly nature and 252 EVs are required for Necturna to outrun Timid Heatran and Jolly Dragonite. An alternative spread of 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe with an Adamant nature grants greater bulk and offensive presence while outrunning most Tyranitar, Scizor, and Breloom, although for the most part the given EV spread is superior.</p>

    <p>Necturna is a decent spinblocker and Steel-type lure, drawing in the likes of Forretress, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Jirachi, all of whom are O-2HKOed with Choice Band Sacred Fire. While rain support may be ideal for other Necturna sets, it will ruin her chances of getting these crucial KOs, so weather starters like Tyranitar or Ninetales that can remove the rain make good teammates. Sun in particular boosts V-create and Sacred Fire to even more absurd levels of power but also makes defensive Heatran even more threatening (Timid Heatran is 2HKOed by Stone Edge), so Water-types make good teammates. Starmie is a useful Pokemon to bring along thanks to its access to Rapid Spin and Natural Cure, which can soak up status that could otherwise cripple this set. Vaporeon is also particularly helpful, as it can heal Necturna with Wish; Rotom-W is another notable partner. All three of these can also combat Salamence and Gyarados, should they attempt to take advantage of a Necturna locked into an ineffective attack.</p>

    <p>Necturna is capable of running a Choice Scarf set with these same moves and can catch a few opponents off-guard with its Speed, although the lack of immediate power is noticeable. Shadow Claw should be considered over Shadow Sneak here, as the Choice Scarf reduces the desire for priority, and the higher Base Power allows it to OHKO Latios, Gengar, and Alakazam. Additionally, Close Combat or Hi Jump Kick can be used over a Fire-type move for the surprise jump on Heatran and Tyranitar, but the utility and coverage of Sacred Fire will most often be preferred.</p>

    <script language="JavaScript">
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    set.move[1] = "Toxic Spikes";
    set.move[2] = ["Shadow Claw", "Power Whip"];
    set.move[3] = ["Rapid Spin", "Will-O-Wisp", "Power Whip"];
    set.move[4] = ["Pain Split", "Recover"];
    set.item = "Leftovers";
    set.ability = "Forewarn";
    set.nature = "Careful";
    set.evs.HP = 252;
    set.evs.Atk = 4;
    set.evs.SpD = 252;
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    <p>While it is generally true that any one support move is not as amazing as any one set-up or coverage move, Necturna already has a fairly stellar non-Sketch support movepool, including Toxic Spikes, Will-O-Wisp, and Pain Split, giving the player more freedom with the Sketch slot. Necturna is also a fairly competent special wall with its impressive base 120 Special Defense stat, acting as a decent response to Pokemon such as Celebi, Latias, and most Water-types. Bulky Necturna is one of the best spinblockers in the game; the standard Timid Life Orb Starmie cannot even 2HKO with Ice Beam, factoring in Leftovers. In fact, Necturna performs well against all of OU's common Rapid Spin users, with the exception of Substitute + Toxic Tentacruel. As such, this Necturna can be a valuable Pokemon for stall and balanced teams alike.</p>

    <p>Toxic Spikes is a good support move, and is only made better by Necturna's ability to block Rapid Spin. Power Whip is a good STAB attack, capable of 2HKOing Donphan, Cloyster, Jellicent, and Tentacruel, while Shadow Claw has more reliable accuracy and better generic coverage. As far as the Sketch slot goes, Rapid Spin gives Necturna incredible utility, as it can hit Gengar, Jellicent, and Dusclops with super effective attacks, making spinning easy to accomplish. Pain Split is an unreliable form of recovery, so Recover may be the preferred option, greatly increasing Necturna's lifespan and special walling capabilities. When using Recover, the third moveslot can be used for a secondary STAB or for Will-O-Wisp, which is useful for patching up Necturna's lower Defense stat and hitting Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes, notably Salamence, Dragonite, and Gyarados.</p>

    <p>Maximum Special Defense is necessary in order to make the most use of Necturna's impressive stats and to hold Life Orb Starmie at bay. This also improves Necturna's ability to come in on Pokemon such as Vaporeon and Rotom-W and start setting up entry hazards, as well as taking on dangerous, specially inclined Pokemon such as Virizion, Celebi, and Latias.</p>

    <p>As a spinblocker and a Toxic Spiker, this Necturna fits best on stall or bulky offense teams that depend on residual damage. Skarmory is an excellent choice to set up either Spikes or Stealth Rock, and can also deal with the Dragon-types that Necturna cannot handle. Deoxys-D is another good choice, able to quickly and efficiently layer hazards. Finally, if carrying Rapid Spin, Necturna is an excellent partner to Pokemon that fear Stealth Rock, such as Volcarona, Dragonite, Choice item users, VoltTurn teams, etc. Even though Necturna is a strong special wall, her five weaknesses to common attacking types render her somewhat vulnerable to a large number of opposing Pokemon. Starmie and Rotom-W are frequently paired with Pokemon that Necturna will struggle with, such as Tornadus and Dragonite on rain teams. A Steel-type such as specially defensive Jirachi can make a great teammate, as it resists Flying- and Ice-type attacks. Also, most Steel-types will be unable to deal with Heatran, who is a very great threat, so a bulky Water-type may be advisable. If running Rapid Spin, then Vaporeon is typically a good choice for its access to Wish, and if running Recover, then a Rapid Spin user such as Starmie or Tentacruel may be the better choice. Latias is also a good option to deal with Heatran as well as other threatening Pokemon such as Venusaur, Jirachi, and Dragon-types, though it does share Ghost- and Dark-type weaknesses with Necturna.</p>

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    set.move[2] = ["Giga Drain", "Substitute"];
    set.move[3] = "Shadow Ball";
    set.move[4] = ["Hidden Power Fire", "Hidden Power Fighting"];
    set.item = ["Leftovers", "Life Orb"];
    set.ability = "Forewarn";
    set.nature = "Modest";
    set.evs.HP = 68;
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    set.evs.Spe = 188;
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    <p>While Necturna's base 85 Special Attack stat and lack of any reliable offensive moves over 80 Base Power somewhat hurt her capabilities, her advantages over OU's existing Quiver Dance users are noticeable. Unlike Volcarona, Necturna does not require Rapid Spin support, and unlike Lilligant, Necturna has a secondary STAB, notable immunities to switch into, and better overall stats. Additionally, a high Special Defense stat gives Necturna greater longevity and an easier time setting up against special threats. Giga Drain is a useful STAB for restoring HP lost during setup, while Shadow Ball is Necturna's second STAB attack and achieves fairly good coverage alongside Giga Drain. To deal with Steel-types, Necturna has Hidden Power Fire to hit Jirachi, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, and Metagross for super effective damage, although it is greatly weakened in the rain. For that reason, Hidden Power Fighting is a decent alternative as it gets a stronger hit on Heatran and Hydreigon and is unaffected by weather. Necturna can also run Substitute and the unresisted Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting combination to combat her weaknesses to status effects and priority attacks. Substitute can block status from Chansey or Blissey, who otherwise cannot touch Necturna thanks to her immunity to Seismic Toss. Substitute also blocks Jirachi's Thunder Wave and Politoed's Toxic and can give Necturna free turns to set up; however, this will mean no recovery from Giga Drain, so Leftovers is recommended to cover the damage from opponents' attacks as well as lost HP from Substitute.</p>

    <p>The EV spread allows Necturna to outrun all unboosted base 115 Speed Pokemon after a Quiver Dance. Offensive ability is maximized with a Modest nature and 252 EVs in Special Attack, and the remaining EVs are allocated to HP to enable Necturna to take hits more easily. A simple 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread with a Modest or Timid nature may also be used to outrun Heatran and Dragonite without a boost. For the item, Leftovers is typically the better choice, supplementing Giga Drain's healing effect for garnering additional boosts. Life Orb may be preferred to give Necturna more immediate power and the ability to 2HKO Heatran and Tyranitar after a boost; however, this cuts down on her longevity greatly.</p>

    <p>Generally speaking, the biggest threats to Quiver Dance Necturna are strong physical attackers that can take a hit, such as Dragonite, as well as specially defensive Steel-types like Jirachi and Heatran. A Reflect user would help with Necturna's weakness to priority attacks, especially from Mamoswine and Scizor, while Dugtrio can easily trap and remove both Jirachi and Heatran, as well as Tyranitar, Chansey, and Blissey. Rotom-W and Politoed can both also deal with Jirachi and Heatran, with Politoed's Drizzle support weakening incoming Fire-type attacks for Necturna using Hidden Power Fighting.</p>

    <script language="JavaScript">
    var set = new CAPSet();
    set.name = "Calm Mind + 3 Attacks";
    set.move[1] = "Calm Mind";
    set.move[2] = "Giga Drain";
    set.move[3] = "Blue Flare";
    set.move[4] = ["Hidden Power Ice", "Hidden Power Ground", "Shadow Ball"];
    set.item = "Leftovers";
    set.ability = "Forewarn";
    set.nature = "Modest";
    set.evs.HP = 72;
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    set.evs.Spe = 184;
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    <p>Unlike Quiver Dance, Necturna learns Calm Mind naturally, freeing up her Sketch slot for powerful coverage moves like Blue Flare, which is actually stronger than STAB Shadow Ball against neutral opponents, hitting specially defensive Jirachi for a minimum of 64% after a Calm Mind and OHKOing offensive variants. Giga Drain is this set's primary STAB, helping Necturna maintain her HP while setting up. For coverage, Hidden Power Ice hits Dragon-types like Hydreigon and Latios while Hidden Power Ground allows her to fare better against Fire-types like Heatran and Ninetales. Shadow Ball is a decent alternative for hitting other Calm Mind sweepers like Latias and Reuniclus, and in conjunction with Giga Drain and Blue Flare hits everything in OU bar Heatran and Hydreigon for at least neutral damage.</p>

    <p>The EVs are designed to give the maximum possible attacking prowess while at the same time compromising between Necturna's bulk and her ability to outrun things. 184 Speed EVs allow her to outrun most Tyranitar, Scizor, and Breloom, while also tying with bulky Rotom-W. For the item, Leftovers is preferred, as unlike Quiver Dance Necturna, she cannot rely on outrunning opponents enough to get away with using Life Orb.</p>

    <p>Without the Speed boost provided by Quiver Dance, it is far more difficult for Necturna to sweep and far easier to be revenge killed. This set has problems with Chansey and Blissey, and if Necturna is running Hidden Power Ice, Fire-types like Heatran and Ninetales also pose problems, so Dugtrio can be relied upon to remove them. Running Hidden Power Ground leaves you particularly vulnerable to Salamence, Dragonite, and other Dragon-types, so bulky Steel- and Water-types like Jirachi, Heatran, Vaporeon, Rotom-W, and Starmie or revenge killers like Choice Scarf Terrakion also make good teammates for Calm Mind Necturna.</p>

    <script language="JavaScript">
    var set = new CAPSet();
    set.name = "Soak";
    set.move[1] = "Soak";
    set.move[2] = "Power Whip";
    set.move[3] = "Shadow Claw";
    set.move[4] = ["Stone Edge", "Substitute", "Toxic Spikes"];
    set.item = ["Life Orb", "Leftovers"];
    set.ability = "Forewarn";
    set.nature = "Jolly";
    set.evs.Atk = 252;
    set.evs.Def = 4;
    set.evs.Spe = 252;
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    <p>This set is the hallmark example of Sketch's immense versatility. Soak is a seemingly worthless move that turns the target into a pure Water-type, which to Necturna means she can hit just about any switch-in with a super effective Power Whip&mdash;even her greatest nemesis, Heatran. Additionally, Soaked opponents lose their typical STAB, greatly reducing their offensive potential against this set. With a Life Orb, even physically defensive Skarmory, usually one of Necturna's deadliest enemies, has a small chance to be OHKOed by Power Whip, factoring in Stealth Rock and one round of Leftovers recovery, and other common Steel-types don't stand a chance. This set may also run Horn Leech for help recovering from Life Orb recoil, or Leaf Blade for its 100% accuracy. Of course, using Soak will telegraph that you are about to use a Grass-type attack, so it will not be hard for the opponent to simply switch out again, especially as they will then know Necturna is not carrying a Fire-type attack. That said, you cannot simply rely only on Soak and Power Whip to carry the set. In the last two slots, STAB Shadow Claw and Stone Edge provide you with any coverage that you may need against un-Soaked opponents. Substitute is a nifty choice for the fourth slot, as it helps with prediction immensely and preserves Soak's surprise value, but should be run with Leftovers for survivability. Toxic Spikes can also be helpful to take advantage of the numerous switches this set can force.</p>

    <p>A Jolly nature and 252 Speed EVs are necessary in order to outrun Timid Heatran and Jolly Dragonite, although an Adamant nature with Life Orb would allow you to OHKO just about every single Steel-type in OU after a Soak, including Skarmory. The last 4 EVs are placed in Defense rather than HP in order to allow the creation of a maximum of 5 Substitutes. Life Orb is typically the best choice for the item, as the added power can be the difference between a OHKO and a 2HKO on many of the targets you want to be hitting. Leftovers increases survivability and can offset the passive damage from Substitute but misses out on key OHKOs, so it is recommended for use with Horn Leech or Leaf Blade.</p>

    <p>Thanks to Soak, Necturna is capable of taking on almost any Pokemon in existence, so in terms of partners, it is less a case of what you can do for Necturna, but what Necturna can do for you. As this Necturna set will be forcing plenty of switches, Spikes and Stealth Rock are a huge advantage. In addition, this set functions well as a Steel-type lure, so teammates who can take advantage of their absence are recommended, such as Psychic-type cleaners Alakazam and Latios, as well as set-up sweepers such as Dragonite and Scizor. Lastly, since this Necturna has no way to recover her health, a Wish passer like Vaporeon or Blissey makes a good teammate.</p>

    <script language="JavaScript">
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    set.move[1] = "Belly Drum";
    set.move[2] = "Horn Leech";
    set.move[3] = "Shadow Sneak;
    set.move[4] = "Stone Edge";
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    <p>Another example of Necturna's vast sea of options is Belly Drum, which exchanges 50% of Necturna's HP for +6 Attack, which Necturna can then utilize with priority STAB Shadow Sneak and the HP-draining STAB Horn Leech to devastating effect. Stone Edge rounds out the coverage, able to hit Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory for neutral damage amongst the Steel-types that completely wall this set. Even without a boost, Shadow Sneak is a useful priority attack, even if it is very weak, and Horn Leech and Leftovers ensure that Necturna will likely stay above 50% HP for the majority of the battle.</p>

    <p>Leftovers is the item of choice for this set, as Necturna is extremely vulnerable to priority and revenge killing at merely 50% HP, so the passive healing is crucial. Leftovers also takes some of the pressure off Horn Leech and makes it easier to get off a Belly Drum in the first place, despite making it a bit less capable once it's set up. A Jolly nature can be used over Adamant, as Necturna really wants to be outrunning as much as she can, especially Heatran, who is OHKOed by Stone Edge after a Belly Drum. However, the power of an Adamant nature at +6 is enormous compared to Jolly, so an Adamant nature is usually preferred.</p>

    <p>In general, Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Skarmory will wall this set indiscriminately, and fast Pokemon that can tank a +6 Shadow Sneak, such as Hydreigon, will be able to KO a Necturna with 50% HP easily. Scizor is a particularly menacing foe as well, as Bullet Punch will destroy Necturna. Rotom-W makes a good teammate as a check to Scizor, Skarmory, and Heatran, while a Heatran of your own can generally solve the big problems with other Steel-types like Ferrothorn.</p>

    <h2>Other Options</h2>

    <p>With the freedom that Sketch provides, it would be impossible to cover all of its possible applications. In terms of setup moves, Coil can be used to boost the unfortunate accuracy of Power Whip, as well as its power. Shift Gear can provide a physical sweep without the defense drops of Shell Smash. Close Combat or Hi Jump Kick could replace any Fire-type move in order to hit Heatran and Hydreigon. Spore is always available as a 100% accurate sleep-inducing move, and can be helpful for putting a crucial opponent out of commission. Finally, Spikes and Stealth Rock are available as an accompaniment to Toxic Spikes, a la Forretress or Cloyster. In terms of Necturna's natural movepool, Trick can be a useful and unexpected tool for the Choice sets. A simple non-boosting Life Orb set with Power Whip / Stone Edge / Sacred Fire / Shadow Sneak is also viable as an offensive pivot. The options are more or less limitless thanks to Sketch, so creative sets are always available.</p>

    <h2>Checks and Counters</h2>

    <p>Most often, Steel-types can give Necturna a lot of trouble, especially Heatran and Skarmory, who cannot both be covered by the same Hidden Power or Sketched coverage move. Rain, while inhibiting incoming Fire-type attacks, also neuters the Fire-type attacks Necturna relies upon to hit those Steels, so rain + Steel-types is solid enough general preparation for opposing Necturna.</p>

    <p>Heatran is probably the easiest stop to Necturna in OU; even a Shell Smash-boosted Life Orb Hidden Power Fighting cannot OHKO offensive Heatran, and defensive variants are not even 2HKOed without Stealth Rock support. In return, Heatran can OHKO most variants with Fire Blast or 2HKO with Lava Plume, absent rain or Special Defense boosts from Quiver Dance or Calm Mind. Offensive Heatran must watch out for Shell Smash-boosted Stone Edge though, as well as Close Combat from the lure sets and the rare Hidden Power Ground.</p>

    <p>Specially defensive Jirachi is another capable Steel-type, as it can take nearly any special attack that Necturna can dish out, as well as most physical ones barring Sacred Fire, especially in the rain, and cripple her with Thunder Wave or wear her down with Iron Head. Calm Mind Jirachi can set up on defensive Necturna with impunity. Skarmory is an excellent stop to nearly all Necturna, as physically defensive variants are not even 2HKOed by Choice Band Sacred Fire under the rain, while Skarmory can easily OHKO back with Brave Bird. Hidden Power Fire is also doing pitiful damage, and Fighting-type moves are no threat to Skarmory's defensive stats. It can also Whirlwind Necturna away if she is behind a Substitute. While Ferrothorn and Forretress cannot take a Fire-type attack at all, they can take just about everything else perfectly well and respond with Gyro Ball. However, all of these Pokemon can have difficulty with special variants.</p>

    <p>Necturna's other big foe is Dragonite, who can take a Shadow Claw from Shell Smash Necturna if its Multiscale is unbroken and attack back with a STAB Dragon-type attack or Fire Punch. Rain Dragonite can easily OHKO with STAB Hurricane or set up a Substitute or Roost in Necturna's face, while offensive variants can set up Dragon Dance on defensive Necturna that lack Will-O-Wisp. However, Dragonite must always be wary of Stone Edge and burns from Sacred Fire, and it relies on Multiscale to take +2 Shadow Claws. Hydreigon, like Heatran, resists everything Necturna commonly carries and can fry her with Fire Blast, but is beaten by any Fighting-type move and cannot switch repeatedly into strong Grass-type attacks. Intimidate Salamence can check physical Necturna and has access to Fire Blast and powerful STAB Dragon-type attacks. Volcarona can easily beat Necturna with its STAB Fire-type attacks, as well as set up Quiver Dance against special variants. Finally, Chansey and Blissey deserve special mention for beating pretty much all special sets by Toxic stalling alone, fearing only Substitute. Substitute + Toxic Tentacruel can also annoy Necturna hoping to set up.</p>

    <p>Typically, the easiest way to get rid of Necturna for good is to revenge kill her by preying on her weaker physically defensive side. Scizor can easily get rid of a Shell Smash or Belly Drum Necturna with Bullet Punch, and can 2HKO any other Necturna lacking a Fire-type move. Mamoswine does a similar job with Ice Shard, as Necturna resists or is immune to just about every other priority move in the metagame, save for Sucker Punch. In general, strong neutral hits from Haxorus, Terrakion, Metagross, and the like are all fully capable of taking down Necturna given the correct opportunity.</p>
  2. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Shell Smash shouldn't look like you have it. Stone Edge is nice, but the real allure of Shell Smash is that it boosts special attack high enough that HPFire and HPFighting become viable options, allowing it to punch through its standard counters much more easily. Fire goes first because it bests Skarmory/Jirachi, while Fighting comes second for besting Heatran/Hydreigon and at the least scoring a neutral hit on Skarmory. Stone Edge shouldn't even get a slash, as it is outclassed in every which way. Also, this set is way too frail at -1 both defenses to justify Leftovers. Life Orb or bust (Horn Leech only gets its slash for offsetting that recoil).

    Naughty may seem strange, but nothing is faster and punching through you specially, while you desperately need your SpA and Atk as high as possible for maximum damage.

    Try this instead of what you have..

    [SET]
    name: Shell Smash
    move1: Shell Smash
    move2: Power Whip / Horn leech
    move3: Shadow Claw
    move4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Fighting
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Naughty
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    --

    Choice Band set is mostly good, but you should reorder the moves a bit. Also, Jolly should be mandatory because it is imperative in most cases to be able to 2HKO max Speed Heatran with Stone Edge. It also helps a massive amount against Dragonite. Oh and Horn Leech shouldn't get slated here; the raw power of Power Whip is essentially the sell of the set.

    For what it's worth, may as well make this the Choice set. Shadow Claw > Shadow Sneak with a Scarf, but Sneak's better with a Band. Good for revenging shit like +1 Dnite after multiscale's broken.

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move1: Power Whip
    move2: Shadow Sneak / Shadow Claw
    move3: Sacred Fire
    move4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Band / Choice Scarf
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    --

    On specially defensive, get rid of Horn Leech and slash in WoW instead. Remember that if you're using WoW or Power Whip, you have Recover, and don't need the weaker Horn Leech for healing. Horn Leech is only really useful with Pain Split, in which case you should actually use your Sketch slot and use either Recover or Rapid Spin instead.

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move1: Toxic Spikes
    move2: Shadow Claw
    move3: Rapid Spin / Will-O-Wisp / Power Whip
    move4: Pain Split / Recover
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD

    --

    Leftovers should be primary on the QD set because you're really banking on being able to set up against special attackers who might otherwise be able to beat you (Heatran / Hydreigon). Note that using the QD set in rain is highly recommended if you're using HPFighting in order to easily set up on Heatran.

    --

    Get rid of Substitute on the CM set. SubCM Necturna is badly outclassed by Jirachi and other Pokemon.

    --

    Your Baton Pass set is completely backwards. CMPassing is terrible and Espeon does it worlds better. CMPass should be in the AC of the set at best, and not even slashed in. Remember that once you use Ingrain you can't switch out of your counter, so you really need to know what your opponent's best remaining response to Necturna is before attempting to actually get IngrainPass off. This is where Substitute comes inThe set should look like:

    [SET]
    name: Baton Pass
    move1: Ingrain
    move2: Baton Pass
    move3: Substitute
    move4: Horn Leech / Shadow Claw
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    Remember that 3/4 of our primary counters are primarily special attackers. Better to be more prepared for them than to throw bulk into Defense and take attacks we can't take well anyway.

    --

    Slash Close Combat on Sacred Fire for the Substitute set. It KOs Heatran and Hydreigon cleanly and is generally better with Substitute. Also, Horn Leech may be cool and all here, but you should basically always be using Power Whip here to get the big KOs. Lastly, Stone Edge sucks on this set.

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move1: Substitute
    move2: Power Whip
    move3: Sacred Fire / Close Combat
    move4: Shadow Claw
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    Talk about Focus Punch in the AC of this set, don't mention it in OO. Also mention HJK over CC, except note that CC OHKOs offensive Heatran and 248/0 Heatran after SR damage so HJK usually isn't worth the risk. (hydreigon dies to either regardless) This is also why Focus Punch is only in AC here because the power isn't necessary.

    Leftovers sucks on this set because uh, you basically don't get the KOs you need without LO. Once your sketch move is revealed, you don't get another chance to successfully lure. The only time you should be running Lefties is with Focus Punch, but that means you can't use your Fighting coverage without Sub (and once you novelty of Sub is gone in a battle, you usually don't get a second chance to setup with Necturna).

    --

    Your Other Options list is basically all crap bar a few things. The only stuff that should be in there are mentions of a Coil set (Coil / Power Whip / Shadow Sneak / Stone Edge) that's very vulnerable to Skarmory and RoarTran, the other entry hazards, and Spore. The Specs set is awful, and SubPunch is AC in the Sub set.

    --

    BTW you forgot the Soak set, which is actually really awesome and should go above Substitute and Baton Pass.

    [SET]
    name: Soak
    move1: Soak
    move2: Power Whip
    move3: Shadow Claw
    move4: Stone Edge / Substitute / Toxic Spikes
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    This set is cool because if you Soak on the switch you can actually beat basically all of Necturna's standard counters. This forces switches, so you can use it with a setup move like substitute or even tspikes in the last slot. Stone Edge is usually better though. Also, note that you need Power Whip because then you can OHKO all Jirachi, Skarmory, and Heatran after Soaking them. Jolly is important to outspeed all Heatran and simultaneously remove their Fire STAB and make them vulnerable to STAB Power Whip.

    LO is necessary to OHKO physically defensive Skarmory after Soak with Power Whip, but Leftovers can be used to still OHKO 248/0 Heatran after Soak while missing out on Skarmory.
  3. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Thanks RD, much obliged. Most of the changes you suggested I agree with completely, or in some cases had considered originally but omitted for sake of not having personally tested them, and have implemented, though I have kept a few things here and there for sake of completeness where you suggested to take them out (kept as in still mentioned in comments even if no longer slashed). This only applies to one or two sets though.

    As a note, CM was supposed to be a filler move - I completely forgot about Substitute at the time. My fault entirely.

    The list in OO is partly deliberate simply because Necturna has so many silly things it could potentially do, which are fun to talk about or mention if not to use, and I enjoy exercising the OO section a little bit to talk about those sort of options. I'd make it perfectly clear that most of those were very poor in real terms, never fear.

    Although, I had forgotten Coil when I put up the first few sets. I am half-wondering whether it deserves its own set since it does have its benefits, and the accuracy boost is quite handy, but as you yourself said it has problems with Heatran amongst others. Did anybody else use Coil successfully?

    More opinions or contributions welcomed, as always.
  4. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    This is the set I used during the playtest, more or less:

    [SET]
    name: Belly Drum
    move1: Belly Drum
    move2: Horn Leech
    move3: Shadow Sneak
    move4: Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    -Belly Drum is the sketched move in this set.
    -Functions competently as a 3-attack Pokemon, but uses Necturna's general unpredictability to get in Belly Drum.
    -Horn Leech is used to keep Necturna above 50% HP before Belly Drum, and to restore HP while inflicting massive damage after.
    -After Belly Drum, access to STAB Priority Shadow Sneak off Necturna's 120 Base Attack makes it an excellent mid or late game threat.
    -Stone Edge provides the best physical coverage Necturna has available and allows it to break through Heatran and Skarmory (Jolly +6 Stone Edge OHKO's SpD Tran, does 69.5-82% on Physically Defensive Skarm, and OHKO's Specially Defensive Skarm after SR.).

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    -Leftovers healing aids in keeping Necturna above 50% HP so it can use Belly Drum. Life Orb can increase damage, but be very careful. Unless you can Horn Leech successfully after Belly Drum, Life Orb recoil (along with any hazards or weather) can take Necturna down quickly, or make it difficult to Belly Drum at all. High-risk, high-reward.
    -252 Attack to maximize damage.
    -252 Speed to outrun Base 80's and tie or beat other Necturna with Shadow Sneak.
    -Adamant or Jolly depending on whether you want to outrun Timid Heatran. The additional attack from Adamant is preferred, but 81 Base Speed is still middling.
    -Functions fairly well without resorting to Belly Drum because it has decent utility with an offensive healing move, a priority attack, a strong coverage move, and the ability to switch moves.
    -Tinkering with EVs is not generally recommended, though if you only want to outspeed a specific threat your team has difficulty with, move any Speed EVs into Defense to blunt opposing priority. Maximum Attack is not negotiable.
    -Is not as effective early game, and really needs Steel types (including Skarmory) and Hydreigon either gone or severely weakened to pull off a Belly Drum sweep.

    - - - - -

    Not sure if BD should just be in OO anyway, but the set for BD is very specifically these 3 moves.
  5. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I think Ghost / Fighting coverage is actually quite good for the Calm Mind set, since you can devote your Sketch move to Recover. Something simple like Calm Mind / Shadow Ball / HP Fighting / Recover. You can be a sturdy spinblocker that beats every spinner not named Necturna herself, as well as be an offensive threat over the long run. On that topic, Necturna could also run funny stuff like Fist Plate Judgement for excellent coverage. Something like Calm Mind / Shadow Ball / Judgement / Giga Drain can also be used for an offensive Calm Mind set if need be.

    Another move to think about using on defensive sets is Dragon Tail, which if you have Spikes up, you can easily just spinblock as well as phaze for hazard damage. God, Necturna has sooooooooo many options =).
  6. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    I guess this is kind of a weird suggestion and maybe not really worth doing, but I can't not talk about it now. Am I the only one who (in my unfortunately brief playtesting experience) tried out CM with Secret Sword? It's a pretty funky idea, I know, and the calcs I did with it prior to testing it were not exactly encouraging. But it does hit the normally specially defensive Jirachi and Heatran harder than Hidden Power Fighting does, which might be more helpful for CM in rain, I guess. You could use Giga Drain or Pain Split for the last move as Shrang said, or use a Hidden Power.

    A lot of this is going off of memory from months back, and I don't remember any of the relevant calcs, so I'm just putting it out there.
  7. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    The Belly Drum set is actually really cool and should get its own set. I agree with Deck's setup of it, too. Shrang raises a good point about the CM set, and it should definitely get noted in the analysis, if not slashed right in:

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move1: Calm Mind
    move2: Giga Drain / Shadow Ball
    move3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fighting
    move4: Blue Flare / Recover
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Forewarn
    nature: Modest
    evs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
  8. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Dokie, updated with thingies. I've added Belly Drum as more sets are never a bad thing. Also if I don't, then this analysis has the same number of sets as my DPP Heracross. So more power to me.

    CM/Recover is a good idea, but I'm not sure whether or not it might not deserve its own set, as the current CM set is looking a bit slash-heavy and will probably require a great deal of explanation, as it's essentially two sets in one now. So, I'd like opinions as to whether "offensive" and "defensive" CM variants might be better from an organisational standpoint (the "offensive" and "defensive" labels are just for lack of an easier description right now; I'd probably change it to "CM + 3 Attacks" and "CM + Recover" regardless

    Also on that note I'm wondering whether Quiver Dance should be split into SubQD and QD+3, or if SubQD should be given anything more than a brief nod in the additional comments. Any opinions here gratefully received.

    Still considering Coil.

    Lastly, what capefeather said reminded me of something:

    I touched on this back during the playtest, but didn't remember it until just now. How exactly are we dealing with unreleased event moves, namely Secret Sword, Relic Song, Techno Blast, Freeze Shock and Ice Burn? I ask because currently there is no legitimate way for a Pokemon with Sketch to obtain these moves in-game, and thus in keeping with our desire to stay true to the cartridge as far as is possible, Necturna should not have access to these moves. Is this the case? Or is my assessment off at all?

    The other point I need to be addressed is how this affects the analysis. Even if these moves are released at some point, which they will be (probably), at the time of Necturna's playtest they were not available, and hence they are a factor that was not present in the playtest metagame, which I assumed this analysis was based on (this also raises the question of "what metagame are we writing each CAPmon's analysis for?" but this more broad question can perhaps be answered later)

    Answers or suggestions would be welcome, if only for the sake of noting it in the analysis.
  9. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    I'd say since they weren't legally obtainable at the time they can't be considered for the OU Analysis. If and when they become available they could be incorporated into a CAP Metagame analysis (if we get to those) , but since CAPs are designed to be representative of a specific point in time in a metagame, we should adhere strictly to what was legal then.

    Also nicknames:

    Thorny Witch
    Bewitching Belle
    Tricky Turnip
    Deceptive Damsel
    Malicious Maiden
    Femme Fatale

    etc.
  10. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    I thought you could set up a doubles situation where one mon could Sketch its partner while it uses Metronome. AFAIK Metronome can pick unreleased moves.
  11. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Unreleased Sketch moves can still be Sketched through capefeather's method. Note that none of those moves are even worth mentioning anywhere, however, and so that should be mostly a non-issue. The analysis is based on the metagame as it was when Necturna was released. So that means we discuss it as though the Pokemon which were banned then are banned, and so forth.

    Coil was not good enough to get a set, put it in AC. Trust me, Skarmory eats it alive and it still can't beat Heatran.
    I don't mind splitting them, but they play essentially the same, have the same EV spreads, and so forth. It's just a different application of the Sketch move is all, which changes the moveset around. If you think you can justify a unique explanation for both without ranting, rambling, or otherwise adding fluff, go for it. If not, keep it as one.
  12. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Righto.

    On an unrelated tangent, I wonder if this means we ought to add Garchomp back to Syclant's analysis, and the like (actually this is a peculiar point, as the first six CAPs have had two playtests... Syclant had its first in Feb 2008, and that retrospective one in June 2009... well, we can cross that bridge when PR comes to it, anyway).

    Fair enough.

    You know me too well...

    I could probably manage to come up with a unique explanation for both since they are different sets, more or less, but in the interests of conserving time it would probably be better if they stayed merged... saves me the trouble of explaining an EV spread twice, anyway.

    Still need opinions on SubQD, but apart from that I'm pretty much out of ideas for any other daft sets. Unless, of course, Necturine happens to evolve using a Dusk Stone (you know it makes sense), in which case many a happy time can be had with Lv1 Endeavour + Shadow Sneak... clearly.

    So... unless anybody else has any bright ideas, I'd say I'm not going to be adding much more to this.

    Critiques of any kind appreciated.
  13. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    As a FEAR, Necturna would be pretty bad mostly because it isn't immune to either hail or sand storm and lacks Sturdy for that cool variant of the set. Basically, nothing in OU should have that set outside of Aron and Swinub, IMO.

    SubQD sounds fine as its own set. It has benefits for being able to set up directly on classic Pokemon like Blissey or Chansey thanks to its Ghost typing offering it an immunity to Seismic Toss. It also scores STAB on Shadow Ball, which goes a long way. Don't forget to talk up how it's weaker than its competition, Jirachi, and slower before a boost. It sells itself mostly on its typing, STAB on Shadow Ball, and that it scores a +1 Speed boost that Jirachi wishes it could get. If those aren't the lures for your team, you shouldn't be using it. Note that SubQD still gets wrecked by Skarmory, though, as even at +1 HPFighting barely touches it. It can muscle through the likes of Heatran and Hydreigon, though, which is cool.

    Oh, and could we try to avoid using too many of those nasty nicknames that you and Deck have come up with? Pet names really aren't a good way to make analyses sound better. (They are actually pretty annoying to read!)
  14. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    SubQD added. I wasn't really being serious about FEAR (well, maybe a little bit) and don't worry, I know not to overuse the nicknames. I have had too many of my own to be overly fond of them.

    Thanks for all the help!

    Any more suggestions welcomed.
  15. Strategywin

    Strategywin

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    What about fast choice scarf support? You didnt run the speed tiers earlier, but i'm not sure what you need to outspeed.
    Choice Scarf
    Max HP, Some Speed, rest in def
    Spore- sketched
    tSpikes
    Explosion
    Fighting Type Move
    They will think you have a ghost type stab move, so you should have unresisted moves.
    Also max speed may be necessary for choice scarfed 80 speed users.
    Other spore sets seem good.
  16. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    What's the point of using "fast Choice Scarf support"? Choice Scarf is an awful item to use on a supporting Pokemon no matter how you look at it. Also, the only way Necturna can get Explosion is by sketch, and it's an awful move anyways. You have an interesting idea, but it just won't work out well.

    I have a suggestion myself for this analysis: maybe slash Horn Leech over Power Whip on the Substitute set? I've found Horn Leech's recovery (and accuracy!) more useful than Power Whip's power on that set.

    Also, I've had some success with a LO tank Necturna. I was using Power Whip / Stone Edge / Sacred Fire/Hi Jump Kick / Pain Split/Shadow Sneak. Necturna hits pretty much everything hard without a Ghost-type move, so it should use Pain Split over it on a Life Orb set. However, I've had my moments where I really needed Shadow Sneak, so a slash between the two would probably be appropriate there. I understand if you don't want to make a set for this on the analysis (it's extremely long already), but it's a pretty effective set.

    Good luck writing this, bmb. You have a very solid skeleton.
  17. Strategywin

    Strategywin

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    Yeah i guess is you want fast support run resto-chesto fidgit. But a spore then set up set is possible.
    Spore sd (does it learn horn leech naturally) power whip good coverage move
    also, v-create!
  18. bugmaniacbob

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    Oh, I guess I forgot to bump this

    This is written / have at ye / etc.
  19. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
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    I'll GP this

    may Neptune have mercy on my soul
  20. Birkal

    Birkal Now watch me tie it into a knot with my tongue
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    Mmm, no. Don't bother with GPing this just yet, Oglemi.

    bmb, this is really too long to be practical. I love your writing style and your thoroughness, but this is just not what we need. I'm mostly concerned that viewers looking for some good information on Necturna will absolutely drown in the plethora of text. 95 paragraphs, albeit impressive, is impractical. I've talked with the other CAP mods about this and many of us are in agreement.

    So your options are either a) you can personally shorten this to something less intimidating, or b) you can collaborate with another CAP member who will shorten this for you. If you choose b), I would be more than happy to assist you. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, bmb =(
  21. Deck Knight

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    Don't take this personally, this is just an opinion from someone who has had to go over and edit copy before:

    You use way too much fluff in your analysis. People may not like bloodless analyses full of nothing but calcs and "Use X for Y" but there is absolutely no reason any move on a set should get more than two sentences.

    To take just one example from checks and counters:

    <p>How does one beat the most versatile Pokemon in OU, if not the game? Well, in the case of Necturna, the answer is apparently "Steel-types". <-- Way too long. You can start with "Steel types are Necturna's primary counters because they resist Necturna's STABs and its strongest coverage move, Stone Edge.

    But we'll get to that later. <-- This is entirely superfluous and self-admits rambling.

    In order for Necturna to be able to defeat Steel-types, to a great extent she has to rely on Fire-type attacks, which are greatly weakened by the presence of rain, so if you happen to have both Politoed and a Steel-type on your team, Necturna is going to have her work cut out for it. <-- A little wordy, it can be reduced slightly thus:

    Necturna's Sketch slot is usually used for a Fire attack to address these Steel-types, but her problems addressing them are compounded in rain because both Necturna and Steel-types benefit from the reduction of Fire damage.



    Remember that Necturna is at her most dangerous when you do not know her set – once you have identified that, as well as her Sketch move, then stomping the poor little miko into rather creepy goo becomes a much easier feat.</p> <-- here it drags on a bit but the flavor is permissible. I'd personally remove "Remember that." It leaves you with this final product:


    Steel types are Necturna's primary counters because they resist Necturna's STABs and its strongest natural coverage move, Stone Edge. Necturna's Sketch slot is usually used for a Fire attack to address these Steel-types, but her problems addressing them are compounded in rain because both Necturna and Steel-types benefit from the reduction of Fire damage. Necturna is at her most dangerous when you do not know her set – once you have identified that, as well as her Sketch move, then stomping the poor little miko into rather creepy goo becomes a much easier feat.


    The new product is three much shorter sentences instead of five (two of which are run-ons), and much more concise.


    <p>As far as most sets are concerned, their reliance on Fire-type attacks, particularly those that can use Sacred Fire, makes them particularly vulnerable to Heatran. In fact, even a Shell Smash-boosted Life Orb Hidden Power Fighting cannot OHKO offensive Heatran, and defensive variants are not even 2HKOed without Stealth Rock support. In return, Heatran offers a fairly solid OHKO on most variants with Fire Blast or a 2HKO with Lava Plume, though this may change depending on whether the Necturna in question is under the rain, or has Quiver Dance or Calm Mind boosts. Specially defensive Heatran will typically struggle more with the special sets, contrary to what you would expect, and offensive Heatran must watch out for Shell Smash-boosted Stone Edge as well as Close Combat from the lure sets, as well as the rare Hidden Power Ground.</p>

    This paragraph on the other hand is fine because it explains how the set works and there is little fluff to it. Like anything it can be tweaked to be more concise, but it covers the ground it needs to without going overboard.
  22. bugmaniacbob

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    Okay I've been ill for a bit so it's taken me a bit of time to muster up the strength to address this again, sorry about that

    I'm well aware that this is long. I anticipated that I would be asked to shorten it. Even so, it's a little bit disappointing. Nevertheless - my ideal situation would be to take this analysis and attempt to shorten it myself, as I would ordinarily never trust anybody else to hack and slash my work, but that's probably not going to be possible in this case. Experience has taught me that I am useless when it comes to trying to shorten things, but more to the point, I don't think I have the heart to expend time and effort getting rid of something I spent an inordinate amount of time and effort on to make perfect.

    I'll be happy to work with someone to make it shorter, and if I have any spare time over the coming week I'll have a stab at trying to cut out any extraneous bits that I see on reading it again.

    @Deck Knight - while I appreciate the effort you put into that post, I cannot agree with some of the points that you have made. I am writing a Pokemon analysis, not a bank statement, and your updated paragraph, while undoubtedly shorter than mine, reads rather like a set of bullet points. I like to think that I am actually talking to a reader in an analysis, rather than writing in a notebook. This is just a stylistic thing on my part, but it means that I have a tendency to write introductory paragraphs to most sections that give a general overview of what is to come - you might argue that this is unnecessary, and indeed you could probably remove the first paragraphs from all sections of the analysis and not lose any critical information. But I see them as necessary, if only to give the reader some time to be absorbed. I don't particularly see them as "rambly" - but that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on, I suppose.

    @Birkal - with regard to the "viewers looking for good information on Necturna", I feel obliged to mention that I am writing this with a mind for a reader who actually wants to read the thing - or, more specifically, for someone who isn't in some mad hurry and will appreciate the analysis for being, well, a good read, rather than simply as an information source - the rationale behind this being that anybody who wants information quickly will only ever be interested in a) the set itself and b) possibly the damage calcs (which don't exist, but could be added if necessary) - the rest of the information is split up by paragraph, so it's not hard to find at all. This is not to say that it couldn't be shortened - just trying to explain why I make the effort.

    That's all I have to say right now - I will also try to change the format to the required version for the CAP site when I have the chance. Cheers.
  23. Birkal

    Birkal Now watch me tie it into a knot with my tongue
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Alright, giving this some long overdue QC. I know this is gonna kill you, bmb, but there's still a lot of this that needs to be cut. I'll go into specific paragraphs on another date, but I wanted to dig into each of the sets to make sure we're ready to go on each of them. Once we get that all worked out, we can then trim some of the superfluous text.

    I know that Rising_Dusk made numerous comments on these and I want to stay as true to them as possible; he certainly had more idea of what was going on during the playtest than either of us did. However, there's a few simple changes that should be adjusted (or at least discussed) before proceeding further.

    I don't get why Stone Edge isn't slashed with Shadow Claw. I know you had it on the set originally and R_D asked you to remove it. I definitely agree with him that some form of HP does best in the fourth slot, but Stone Edge is definitely a good move to slash after Shadow Claw, which is a pretty weak STAB option. It'll do a lot more to mence and dnite primarily.

    No comment here. You mentioned that Shadow Sneak should never be used with Choice Scarf, so this is fine. Definitely one of the best Necturna sets; good to see it secured in at #2.

    I never understood this set, to be frank. I know R_D loved it though and I do think it has some merit, so that's fine. Personally, I'd rather see it in the slot below QD, but I'll leave that up to you, bmb. Never got why Power Whip isn't slashed in with Shadow Claw either; care to explain that? If you're running Recover, WoW is pretty much the only move you'd want to run. If I had my way, I'd have the second slot be Power Whip / Shadow Claw. I guess it's because Shadow Claw has better neutral coverage... but ugh it is so weak in comparison. I dunno, what are your thoughts on it?

    (Read after the next set)

    Man, these absolutely need to be combined together. The only difference is Substitute for Giga Drain and restricting yourself to HP Fighting for coverage. Just call it Quiver Dance. Fire move: Quiver Dance. Second: Giga Drain / Substitute. Third: Shadow Ball. Fourth: HP Fire / HP Fight. Make sure to emphasize that Substitute + HP Fire don't mix. I hope that makes sense, because I really don't see the need for the two to have two different sets.

    No complains here; this is a great set. Recover + Ghost/Fighting coverage rules.


    I don't see why you'd ever want to run Toxic Spikes on this, but R_D recommended it so I guess it's cool with being a third slash. While this set is probably the only non-gimmick Soak set that will ever exist, it still isn't incredible. I'd recommend it go after the Substitute set.

    Definitely an underrated set that was a lot of fun to use. Minor technicality: I dunno why Sacred Fire / Close Combat isn't slot 4 with Shadow Claw in slot 3. Meh, whatever you think is best on that. I'll get into the AC of each set on another day, but I think that Leftovers shouldn't seem like such a non-option here. Residual damage + hazards + Substitute can wreck Necturna; I don't think it's unfair to consider lefties.

    Deck Knight cracks me up, haha. Power Whip could be slashed instead of Horn Leech for MORE POWER, but Horn Leech is obviously the best way to go. This is fine as is.

    Still think this set is pretty darn gimmicky, especially with Espeon becoming an essential member of any BP team. Regardless, this is fine as the last set.


    I'll obviously give more comments, but I'd like to see what you think of these key issues first!
  24. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    I await said text trimming with great anticipation

    Irrespective of what RD said, the reason I moved Stone Edge off the set was because of its accuracy, not its power or utility. As the set notes, running two inaccurate moves on a sweeper that will die to anything doesn't do your consistency much good. Even so, I'm pretty certain that it's a better option than Hidden Power Fighting (which OHKOes pretty much nothing) so I could slash it in - leaving them both risks a case of the slashies which is very aesthetically displeasing

    As a note, +1 Shadow Claw easily OHKOes Salamence with Stealth Rock (Moxie wasn't released at the time of Necturna's test), and likewise with Dragonite - if you're trying to sweep while your opponent still has full-health Pokemon like that left over, you were probably doomed to begin with (yes I know it OHKOes through multiscale but still) - you should at least have SR up before attempting a sweep.

    EDIT: Happily I think I have a solution - see below

    QD is pretty substandard on Necturna, to be honest.

    I actually deleted the explanation of why you should use Shadow Claw over Power Whip while trying to attain the word-maximum requirements, so you can hardly blame me for that. In a nutshell, though - Power Whip is inaccurate and defensive Pokemon don't want to miss. I guess I'll slash it in for sake of argument since it's certainly an option if you don't care about that sort of thing.

    Those actually used to be a single set. Know why I split them up?

    Because it was so freaking long that even I suggested that they should be split up to make it easier on the poor old reader, and RD agreed.

    In any case I don't particularly feel like merging two of the only two sets that are actually within your word requirements, thanks - but from a competitive standpoint, they play very differently and have very different checks and counters from one another, so are more than worth two sets for the purpose of explaining the relative merits of both.

    Fair's fair

    Big nasty coverage move > dinky little second STAB

    Leftovers is discussed at length in the set comments

    Good good

    I finally came up with an insta-fix to some of the set length problems

    - Split up Choice to Choice Band and Choice Scarf
    - Split up Calm Mind to CM+3 and CM+Recover
    - Split up Shell Smash to Mixed and pure Physical

    I should really have done that ages ago. All of those sets were basically describing two sets in one. Now it looks a lot cleaner. A bit. Probably.

    but whatever

    Oh and it turns out that Deoxys-S was actually unbanned for this playtest - I guess nobody bothered to use it since it was banned halfway through the CAP. In any case, I changed all mentions of Deo-D to Deo-S since that's how it was back then

    ---------------------

    Oh hey guys, look! Word counts!

    Mixed Shell Smash: 1273
    Physical Shell Smash: 1094
    Choice Band: 1260
    Choice Scarf: 899
    Specially Defensive: 1274
    Quiver Dance: 1268
    Substitute + Quiver Dance: 722
    Calm Mind + 3 Attacks: 1162
    Calm Mind + Recover: 867
    Substitute: 1183
    Soak: 1071
    Belly Drum: 742
    Baton Pass: 757
    Other Options: 1237
    Checks and Counters: 1027

    I'm going to set a tentative target for getting all of these down to below 1200 words, which is about the length of a "long" set in C&C currently (see: Genesect, etc.) - remember that Necturna is an immensely diverse and important Pokemon, and that a lot of discussion of its options is needed, and also that this is not C&C - these analyses are of paramount importance, cannot easily be revamped later, and as such are useful to keep as comprehensive as possible. I've already removed a lot of stuff that I wanted to keep, but it looks fine from my standpoint now - and if Birkal can suggest more stuff that needs cutting, it would be appreciated as well.

    -----

    Thoughts?

    EDIT: Also, we need discussion on set order now. Any contributions or notes are appreciated.
  25. Strategywin

    Strategywin

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    can you please put croturna? bw2 tutors are cool, and lol im sorry about my previous post here. I was a noob back then.
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