New OU List (May 2010)

[kokoloko]

You should probably elaborate more on what you mean when you say "the OU list has nothing to do with OU," because that is, honestly, confusing as shit. Which is why Berserker Lord felt the need to correct what looked like a typo.

I'll take the liberty of explaining what you mean, if you don't mind.

What he is trying to say is that since you can use anything in OU and anything in the tiers below it, the only restrictions for OU are Ubers. Unlike in UU, where BLs and OUs are also disallowed. I believe that is the gist of it, no?

 

[DDRMaster]

I love how people are using the "Scizor switches in on Yawn and Protect on U-Turn". It sounds so situational. Most of the time Scizor would in on one of Umbreon's other moves, be it Protect, Wish or Payback, and then its ready to just U-Turn and laugh at you. Also, after it's been used a few times, people would just get the jist and just switch Scizor out on the Protect knowing it's going to go to sleep if it tries to U-Turn. So Umbreon Protects, thinking Scizor will go to sleep, instead your opponent is not an idiot and just goes to something like SD Luke, DD Tauntrados (Payback is going to do absolutely jack shit after Intimidate), DD Taunt Tar, Infernape and all sorts of sweepers that you don't to give a free turn to. Umbreon is a liability, pure and simple.

I've used a Yawn+Protect Umbreon and it has worked really well. Yawn on the switch in and Protect on the U-turn is not situational because you can predict Scizor's switch in rather easily, since it's the most used Pokemon and it loves switching in on Umbreon. Umbreon can switch in on a lot of special attackers and can easily fire a Yawn at them which would either force them out or put them to Sleep. So you can spam Yawn fairly easily until something goes to Sleep, and many teams don't even have a Sleep absorber. My opponent has fallen for it every time I use it and the few times Scizor comes in on a something other than Yawn, I just switch it out of U-turn and get it when it comes back in. Also, if you happen to put down three layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock, forcing it out will only allow it to switch in one more time, and at that point, U-turn is useless.

If Lucario comes in, predict its Swords Dance and hit it with Yawn and it will be forced out. The only truely same switch-ins are Breloom (with a Toxic Orb) and Rest Talkers, who can still be used a set up fodder. I run it with Salamence since Scizor is one of the few checks to it and sometimes the only one on the opponent's team. Other checks, like Swampert, can be worn down or Exploded on with my Metagross.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

You should probably elaborate more on what you mean when you say "the OU list has nothing to do with OU," because that is, honestly, confusing as shit. Which is why Berserker Lord felt the need to correct what looked like a typo.

I'll take the liberty of explaining what you mean, if you don't mind.

What he is trying to say is that since you can use anything in OU and anything in the tiers below it, the only restrictions for OU are Ubers. Unlike in UU, where BLs and OUs are also disallowed. I believe that is the gist of it, no?

I mean, basically. I don't see how it's confusing. The post I was referencing seemed to imply that a change in the OU list could, if more significant than this, somehow change the OU metagame. Which obviously it can't. The post almost seemed to imply that Umbreon is now legal in OU, but OU doesn't care, which is not the case at all. What this change means is that Umbreon is no longer legal in UU, and UU quite clearly does care.

In other words, talking about OU in the OU List thread is basically limited to things like, "Why are people still using Umbreon/Electivire/whatever." The OU List is primarily of concern to UU players. That was what I was trying to say.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The problem with a move like Yawn is that it is like fly or solar beam-- you know what's going to happen next turn if you stay in. Yawn + Protect is Umbreon's only real way of dealing with scizor, so even if you do end up switching in on Yawn it's simply a matter of switching out on protect (which is even MORE predictable than scizor switching in).

lol at "if you get 3 layers of spikes and stealth rock," because even the most consistent stall strategies have a hard time getting up even 2 layers of spike OR stealth rock. At least if the opponent is good.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

umbreon <3

actually, rather than use yawn + protect, it's somewhat more effective to just baton pass immediately after umbreon switches in. if scizor switches in (which happens approximately one third of the time) magnezone comes out and gets the KO instantly, removing umbreon's main counter. if gyarados or lucario come in, pass to rotom-a.

imo umbreon should not be used without magnezone.

 

[Pan.]

Once Taunt-Pokémon are gone (like Skarm, Gliscor etc.), Cursebreon is gonna beat em all.

Dont hate on Umbreon, try it lol.

 

[B-Lulz]

Once Taunt-Pokémon are gone (like Skarm, Gliscor etc.), Cursebreon is gonna beat em all.

Dont hate on Umbreon, try it lol.

Lucario, NP Infernape (and probably regular), Machamp, SD Scizor (and again probably CB), Breloom and probably some others all still beat it after 1 curse.

 

[Ice-eyes]

And, of course, there's Trick to cripple it.

What I think some people are overlooking in this discussion is that Umbreon is incapable of running a Payback/Curse/Heal Bell/Wish/Protect/Yawn/Mean Look/Baton Pass set.

 

[Crim09]

Umbreon moving to OU is sort of surprising, I expected it to go to BL. Also BL is generally not allowed in UU.

 

[Vratix]

Umbreon moving to OU is sort of surprising, I expected it to go to BL. Also BL is generally not allowed in UU.

I think most of you are forgetting that BL is just a sub-tier that is still within OU. It is not a true tier that you could make a well-organized, competent team. It is a tier of OU Pokemon with some flaw that is too exploitable to be ignored. Until Umbreon's "fatal flaw" is found there's no reason to put it in BL.

BL Pokemon, according to Smogon, are "Pokémon that aren't used sufficiently to be considered OU, but are too powerful to be used in UU." So if if it turns out that Umbreon is not "used sufficiently" it will be bumped down in three months. However, I can't imagine that it will actually see less face time than Heracross, who has yet to be moved down.

 

[Ice-eyes]

It is a tier of OU Pokemon with some flaw that is too exploitable to be ignored.QUOTE]

BL is a tier of pokemon that don't meet the usage cutoffs for OU, but are broken in UU. The way you phrase it, it makes it sound as if pokemon are being dumped from OU rather than banned from UU.

 

[Vratix]

The way you phrase it, it makes it sound as if pokemon are being dumped from OU rather than banned from UU.

They basically are just that.
Just look at the list, when was the last time you saw a Honchkrow or a Yanmega used particularly well. The BL tier is comprised of things that either just couldn't cut it or--like Cresselia and Shaymin--don't fill their respective roles as well as something already in OU.

 

[blasphemy1]

They basically are just that.
Just look at the list, when was the last time you saw a Honchkrow or a Yanmega used particularly well. The BL tier is comprised of things that either just couldn't cut it or--like Cresselia and Shaymin--don't fill their respective roles as well as something already in OU.

BL is a ban tier for UU, no different than Ubers for OU.

Honestly Umbreon surprises me more than things like Electivire. Why use Umbreon for countering things like Latias or Starmie when you can have ScarfTar? At least Electivire catches a free boost when Scarf Latias tries to revenge your Gyarados.

 

[Eternal]

Instead of welcoming Umbreon to OU, we should say good bye to it in UU. Since it makes no difference if Umbreon was UU or NU as it would be still usable in OU.

In my opinion, Umbreon had a good niche in the UU environment. Don't know why people would use it in standard when there are other better options (as that is the only reason Umbreon is moved to OU, because more people were using it in OU).